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DF : Xbox Series S likely won’t be able to run Xbox One X enhanced content

It doesnt support native 4k, never has. Theyve said this since day1.

How did you actually still believe that 4k xbox one X content would work on this exactly?


Umm I dunno because for the past 6 months all you people kept spouting out was that its more power than the 1x and its its replacement? Whats the fucking point of the machine if it can't do what ms is so proud to shove down our throats every week?
 
Leave your imagination aside for two minutes, and use your eyes instead.
Notice how gameplay of dirt 5, assassin's creed valhalla, watch dogs legion, outriders, yakuza call of dragon, call of sea and medium is all shown running on S

I'll believe it when i use my eyes and see it for myself.

In 2019 i was told Hellblade 2 was running on an XSX. It was a trailer rendered on a pc
Then we had Halo
And then the second MS reveal that said "running on hardware representative of the XSX"
Usually, i give companies the benefit of the doubt, but MS have burned through all good will atm.

Though i will say Flight Sim looks beautiful
 

Redlancet

Banned
Yet they are still around to continue on. As I said nothing will stop this thing.
so let me see,the x at low prices sold like shit,the digital one at 120 euros sold much less than the ps4,and you try to paint that as some kind of unnstoppable train? to where? failure station?

what a time to be alive,i still remember when 4K was the end of all things and less resolution was a cardinal sin,now 1440p its the new hot thing,we are on the moving goalposts olimpic games
 
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I'll believe it when i use my eyes and see it for myself.

In 2019 i was told Hellblade 2 was running on an XSX. It was a trailer rendered on a pc
first of all, in a recent presentation of UE5, hellblade2 was commented by epic as their prime example of rendering human faces on UE5.
then, second, if you plan to first use your eyes to see for yourself, would you be as kind to stop spamming xbox threads with your concerns until console is out and you can go touch it? that would be until November 10th. thank you

They wanted to see games running on the new console and now its casually ignored.

now.... who could have imagined that ?
 
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Umm I dunno because for the past 6 months all you people kept spouting out was that its more power than the 1x and its its replacement? Whats the fucking point of the machine if it can't do what ms is so proud to shove down our throats every week?

I dont understand what part you dont understand. XSS has less overall memory than XOX. 4k xbox one games require at least 9GB of ram not counting OS. XSS will be using 8GB i believe. This causes a compatibility problem.

Could they rework all those games to make it work, sure. But why? The console doesnt support native 4k.

Theyd essentially be doing all that work, only for you to still not see any of the 4k enhancements. It literally changes nothing. XSS is still going to upscale games to 4k.
 
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Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
I'm confused. Not about the console, that part is clear. Im confussed about the responses in this thread that can't understand that a next generation 1080p machine can't run 4k games?

4k is nit the only indicating factor of next gen. Are the snarky comments from a place of ignorance or are people being intentionally daft?


The messaging from Microsoft is be shitty in various instances( smart delivery ) but if people here can't tell that Gears 5 running at 120fps and high/ultra settings on a $300 system isnt Next Gen....
 
So crossgen games now affect and hold back next gen? I want Jason Ronald to fully explain this. I don't want the opinion of armchair devs and people who piece together a gaming PC and call themselves "TEK EXPERTS".
 

Neo_game

Member
I don't think RAM will be the issue here. People are comparing current gen game design with next gen game design. If we are going by what Cerny presented from "Road to PS5" video, assets will not have to be stored in RAM for the next ~30 seconds or so of player action. Given that the the XSS has the same SSD speed and the same I/O advances as the XSX, RAM usage will not be the bottleneck going forward.

SSD, I/O are the unlikely hero of the next gen. But the memory and it's BW is definitely the weakest part of these console.
 

Rolla

Banned
I'll believe it when i use my eyes and see it for myself.

In 2019 i was told Hellblade 2 was running on an XSX. It was a trailer rendered on a pc
Then we had Halo
And then the second MS reveal that said "running on hardware representative of the XSX"
Usually, i give companies the benefit of the doubt, but MS have burned through all good will atm.

My thoughts exactly.
 
I'm confused. Not about the console, that part is clear. Im confussed about the responses in this thread that can't understand that a next generation 1080p machine can't run 4k games?

4k is nit the only indicating factor of next gen. Are the snarky comments from a place of ignorance or are people being intentionally daft?


The messaging from Microsoft is be shitty in various instances( smart delivery ) but if people here can't tell that Gears 5 running at 120fps and high/ultra settings on a $300 system isnt Next Gen....

You'll casually be ignored but this is a great post. Lots of mud slinging going around
 

FStubbs

Member
Such a particular situation. One that I don't think will cause many headaches nonetheless. It is what it is.

At this point all of these threads just sound like they're carried by folks that hate Microsoft/Xbox and just want it to fail, lmao.

I don't hate Microsoft. I'm just pointing out the Series S seems hopelessly gimped. And if it's the baseline for Microsoft's Gen 9, then forget the Series X's stats, the PS5 is a dramatically more powerful platform.
 
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I can't with this fucking console...

Make it go away.

mdVbVFZ.png
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
I couldn't give a shit about BC or its enhancements. But what makes me laugh is Microsoft talked about how great its BC is and now they are giving Series S owners a half baked version.

We don't even know that at this point.

So the One X really is more powerful than the Series S.

Um, no? Better processor, faster Ram, ssd, and many other optimizations that make a huge difference

Many developers believe Series S will have a problem with a lack of RAM


So now 3 developers out of hundreds is "Many". Wow. Are any of them even currently working with the systems? How many of you are ignoring SFS which effectively makes the ram 18GB?
 

Rockman33

Member
so let me see,the x at low prices sold like shit,the digital one at 120 euros sold much less than the ps4,and you try to paint that as some kind of unnstoppable train? to where? failure station?

what a time to be alive,i still remember when 4K was the end of all things and less resolution was a cardinal sin,now 1440p its the new hot thing,we are on the moving goalposts olimpic games
I also remember when many people said higher frame rates was the end all be all. And anything at 1080p was more than good enough...
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
I don't think this should be classed as a next gen console, it really blurs lines between old gen and new, it's significantly cheaper and weaker than both.

That makes no sense, it's clearly has more power than any current game console on the market. But even if you go with the argument that it's weaker somehow than the Xbox one X, how exactly could that be described as "significant"?
Even the most most hard core supporters that the X is more powerful would agree that it's in the same ballpark, not significantly weaker.
 

-Arcadia-

Banned
Wow, you guys really can turn anything into non-stop arguing these days.

Makes sense on the news, if disappointing. They were very clear that it was a lower resolution, budget console. Ideally, it'd be nice to play One X versions, but... it's a budget console. You can't slice $200 off, have a small footprint, and expect to have it all feature-wise too.

For it's audience, the same one that doesn't give a shit about 4K next-gen gaming, an absence of 4K current-gen gaming will be fine too.
 

INC

Member
Wow, you guys really can turn anything into non-stop arguing these days.

Makes sense on the news, if disappointing. They were very clear that it was a lower resolution, budget console. Ideally, it'd be nice to play One X versions, but... it's a budget console. You can't slice $200 off, have a small footprint, and expect to have it all feature-wise too.

For it's audience, the same one that doesn't give a shit about 4K next-gen gaming, an absence of 4K current-gen gaming will be fine too.

But........logic.........must.........resist..............
 
Did anyone at MS claim that the XSS would be an upgrade for the X1X? Wouldn't it make more sense for the XSX to be the upgrade for the X1X? Can the XSS run games better than the X1? I heard something about Gears 5 running at 120 FPS on the XSS can the X1 do that? I thought frame rate trumped all?
 

01011001

Banned
Did anyone at MS claim that the XSS would be an upgrade for the X1X? Wouldn't it make more sense for the XSX to be the upgrade for the X1X? Can the XSS run games better than the X1? I heard something about Gears 5 running at 120 FPS on the XSS can the X1 do that? I thought frame rate trumped all?

the XSS is more powerful than the X1X, but the issue here is that the X1X patches are optimised for a completely different RAM profile and they are optimised for a 6TF GCN gpu.
you can't just move that over to a 4TF RDNA2 gpu and have it run without issues.

every game would need to be patched to work on XSS in X1X mode. the XSS could most likely run almost any X1X mode if optimised for it but that's just not feasible.

Microsoft themselves and some other developers will patch their games specifically for XSS, basically every game that gets a next gen version/upgrade will run/look better on XSS than on X1X.
even if it means that they will run at a lower resolution, the games will run smoother and with better settings than on X1X due to the more modern GPU and the VASTLY superior CPU
 

Danny 117

Member
Who knows? Maybe they will add an XSS profile to backwards compatibility that targets 1440p instead of 4K for “enhanced” games.

Let’s wait and see what MS says.
 
while its okay for console fanatics to not understand what they are seeing, I start questioning the comprehension of some developers too.


I mean, I had seen a few months back the microsoft issued GDK notes to developers on how they cannot save an entire GPU capture when using all dev kit available memory when under lockhart profile :messenger_tears_of_joy: , but some of these comments on twitter are even worse


Yeah, you nailed it. The developers that have voiced their concerns are oblivious to this magical technology that only you and the elite have figured out... :messenger_sunglasses:
 

Marlenus

Member
That is correct. it's not just the vram either. the gpu despite the IPC gains is not as powerful. MS at hot chips said that the IPC gains are 25% over last gen. At 4 rdna 2.0 tflops, we are looking at 5 polaris tflops which is clearly less than the 6 tflops X1X.

That said, any future games should run better on the XSX because they wouldve been ported to take full advantage of the CPU and SSD.

RDNA is 50% + perf/watt over Vega. RDNA 2 is 50% perf/watt over RDNA.

That means 120W RDNA ~= 180W GCN (one x SoC, whole thing not GPU). It further means that 80W RDNA2 ~= 180W GCN.

4Tflops RDNA2 is ~= 6Tflops GCN.

We can also compare the 5.2Tflop 5500XT 8GB to the 7Tflop RX 590 and see that the RDNA card is hot on the heels of the RX 590 at 1080p.
 
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SSD, I/O are the unlikely hero of the next gen. But the memory and it's BW is definitely the weakest part of these console.

yeah, load times are a huge selling point...if I can push start and be in game in 2 seconds...or 12 for $299, that's a big deal to me

my whole PC needs an upgrade, i haven't even made the ssd jump yet, and $299 just sounds better and better every time I see it
 

Marlenus

Member
the XSS is more powerful than the X1X, but the issue here is that the X1X patches are optimised for a completely different RAM profile and they are optimised for a 6TF GCN gpu.
you can't just move that over to a 4TF RDNA2 gpu and have it run without issues.

every game would need to be patched to work on XSS in X1X mode. the XSS could most likely run almost any X1X mode if optimised for it but that's just not feasible.

Microsoft themselves and some other developers will patch their games specifically for XSS, basically every game that gets a next gen version/upgrade will run/look better on XSS than on X1X.
even if it means that they will run at a lower resolution, the games will run smoother and with better settings than on X1X due to the more modern GPU and the VASTLY superior CPU

It will be plug and play. Frame rates may be a bit different between one X and series S versions if devs went closer to the metal but anything that stuck to standard dx12 stuff should work without much issue. It is probably possible for MS to release 'driver' patches for each x1x enhanced game that does have issues to fix them just like AMD and NV release game ready drivers for big new titles to ensure they work well.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
RDNA is 50% + perf/watt over Vega. RDNA 2 is 50% perf/watt over RDNA.

That means 120W RDNA ~= 180W GCN (one x SoC, whole thing not GPU). It further means that 80W RDNA2 ~= 180W GCN.

4Tflops RDNA2 is ~= 6Tflops GCN.

We can also compare the 5.2Tflop 5500XT 8GB to the 7Tflop RX 590 and see that the RDNA card is hot on the heels of the RX 590 at 1080p.
PERF/WATT does not mean PERF/CLOCK. Those are two entirely different things my man.

Look up IPC gains. Those are your perf/clock or perf/flop numbers. Thats what MS gave us at hot chips. They said the CUs give us 25% more performance compared to last gen.

What RDNA 2.0 is doing is simply giving us the same performance for 50% fewer power consumption.

I suggest you look into this. there is a difference. those two things are NOT the same.
 

geordiemp

Member
Power efficiency .



Power efficiency. A teraflop is literally operations per second they are like for like the efficiency is per watt and allows higher clocking etc the efficiency has nothing to do with calculations god people are thick skulled.

20 TF ampere performs same as 13.5 TF Turing on Nvidia.

Efficient use of shaders and how they are fed by cache and utilisation is this discussion.

And then you have power efficiency, which is different, and there is also max performance frequencies which is a propagation of logic discussion of that technology and node.
 
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Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
I don't think this should be classed as a next gen console, it really blurs lines between old gen and new, it's significantly cheaper and weaker than both.


(is this satire? I'll assume its a genuine post.)



This is an insane take. You can not play Gears 5 on High/Ultra Settings with Ray Tracing @ 120fps on an Xbox One X under any conditions. There is nothing on the One X that could not run on the Series S. The games that are DESIGNED for last gen, even pro last gen could be redesigned to run on the Series S.


The PS4 PRO does 4K with 8GB of ram In total on old shit hardware.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
20 TF ampere performs same as 13.5 TF Turing on Nvidia.

Efficient use of shaders and how they are fed by cache and utilisation is this discussion.

And then you have power efficiency, which is different, and there is also max performance frequencies which is a propagation of logic discussion of that technology and node.
nah, 2080 ti is a 17.5 tflops card. the clocks used by nvidia to count tflops are misleading. the card spends most of its time at around 2.0 ghz, not 1.5 ghz nvidia used to get their 13.5 number.
 

Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
In general that is not true. It uses CB or runs a native reses around 1440.

This is 100% true however, For the purposes of trying to illustrate the difference in the One X and Series X I wanted to use an example that I thought people who only understand resolution as a metric could get.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
It's not just the amount of RAM, the RAM speed itself is substantially slower on the S. I suspect the system OS will be pretty slow too. 2 GB RAM running at 56 GB/s doesn't inspire confidence.

10GB @ 560 GB/s, 6GB @ 336 GB/s8GB @ 224 GB/s, 2GB @ 56 GB/s

How much memory bandwidth do you think you have on whatever OS you are reading this forum on?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Nah, that can't be right.
Sorry, but it is. MS just confirmed it.

“Xbox Series S was designed to be the most affordable next generation console and play next generation games at 1440P at 60fps. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of backward compatible games while applying improved texture filtering, higher and more consistent frame rates, faster load times and Auto HDR.”
 

TigerKnee

Member
Is this confirmed by Microsoft?

edit - beaten like a drum.

Oh well, at least it's still BC.
 
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Marlenus

Member
PERF/WATT does not mean PERF/CLOCK. Those are two entirely different things my man.

Never said it did. However we know the wattage of the X1X soc and can scale that performance level to an RDNA2 soc that delivers the same performance. Works out to around 80W. This seems to be in the ballpark of what the Series S SoC will draw considering how small it is.

Look up IPC gains. Those are your perf/clock or perf/flop numbers. Thats what MS gave us at hot chips. They said the CUs give us 25% more performance compared to last gen.

25% IPC increase combined with a clockspeed increase will deliver a greater than 25% performance uplift. The series S has a 33% clockspeed increase as well.

What RDNA 2.0 is doing is simply giving us the same performance for 50% fewer power consumption.

Incorrect. A 50% perf/watt increase means that at the same power level performance goes up by 50% or at the same performance level power decreases by 33%. Reducing power use by 50% for the same performance would be a 100% perf/watt gain.

I suggest you look into this. there is a difference. those two things are NOT the same.

P=I²R and P=IV are two ways to get to the power of a circuit. One is not better than the other. Using the perf/watt metrics to get to a SoC power envelope that can match the X1X performance is just as valid as using IPC and clockspeed metrics to get to the same ballpark. In either event both point to the series S having about the same GPU performance as the X1X and this is backed up with RDNA vs Polaris GPUs you can buy and benchmark today.
 
There are a lot more optimizations built into the DX apis. Supposedly xbox one games are still running natively. The below states how less ram could be used.
But again this is all just theories but this thread is just based on theories as well.






"
Asset streaming is taken to the next level, but Microsoft wasn't finished there. Last-gen, we enjoyed a 16x increase in system memory, but this time it's a mere 2x - or just 50 per cent extra if we consider Xbox One X as the baseline. In addition to drawing more heavily upon storage to make up the shortfall, Microsoft began a process of optimising how memory is actually used, with some startling improvements.

"We observed that typically, only a small percentage of memory loaded by games was ever accessed," reveals Goossen. "This wastage comes principally from the textures. Textures are universally the biggest consumers of memory for games. However, only a fraction of the memory for each texture is typically accessed by the GPU during the scene. For example, the largest mip of a 4K texture is eight megabytes and often more, but typically only a small portion of that mip is visible in the scene and so only that small portion really needs to be read by the GPU."


As textures have ballooned in size to match 4K displays, efficiency in memory utilisation has got progressively worse - something Microsoft was able to confirm by building in special monitoring hardware into Xbox One X's Scorpio Engine SoC. "From this, we found a game typically accessed at best only one-half to one-third of their allocated pages over long windows of time," says Goossen. "So if a game never had to load pages that are ultimately never actually used, that means a 2-3x multiplier on the effective amount of physical memory, and a 2-3x multiplier on our effective IO performance."

A technique called Sampler Feedback Streaming - SFS - was built to more closely marry the memory demands of the GPU, intelligently loading in the texture mip data that's actually required with the guarantee of a lower quality mip available if the higher quality version isn't readily available, stopping GPU stalls and frame-time spikes. Bespoke hardware within the GPU is available to smooth the transition between mips, on the off-chance that the higher quality texture arrives a frame or two later. Microsoft considers these aspects of the Velocity Architecture to be a genuine game-changer, adding a multiplier to how physical memory is utilised.



"

XB1 and XB1X have partial resident textures hardware extensions they already do most of SFS work

maybe Ms can implement virtualization using the SSD speed, it may introduce problems and hickups and probably wont work for every game or maybe they will use some kind of improvement over XB1 versions but just not the same improvement of XB1X
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Never said it did. However we know the wattage of the X1X soc and can scale that performance level to an RDNA2 soc that delivers the same performance. Works out to around 80W. This seems to be in the ballpark of what the Series S SoC will draw considering how small it is.



25% IPC increase combined with a clockspeed increase will deliver a greater than 25% performance uplift. The series S has a 33% clockspeed increase as well.



Incorrect. A 50% perf/watt increase means that at the same power level performance goes up by 50% or at the same performance level power decreases by 33%. Reducing power use by 50% for the same performance would be a 100% perf/watt gain.



P=I²R and P=IV are two ways to get to the power of a circuit. One is not better than the other. Using the perf/watt metrics to get to a SoC power envelope that can match the X1X performance is just as valid as using IPC and clockspeed metrics to get to the same ballpark. In either event both point to the series S having about the same GPU performance as the X1X and this is backed up with RDNA vs Polaris GPUs you can buy and benchmark today.
i dont know what to tell you. All of this is entirely incorrect.

You can see here that this 5500m a 4.0 tflops gpu is equivalent to the 5.0 tflops 570 which matches the IPC gains they provided.


Regardless, MS just confirmed that the xss will NOT run games at X1X settings and will only have xone s settings. so that proves my point. if that gpu was indeed a 6 tflops polaris gpu, they would have zero issues.

25% IPC increase combined with a clockspeed increase will deliver a greater than 25% performance uplift. The series S has a 33% clockspeed increase as well.

again, thats not how any of this works. tflops are tflops. you cannot combine the 25% IPC improvement with a clockspeed increase to show that the series s is somehow equivalent even though there is a 2 tflops difference between the two. the clockspeeds are already included in tflops calculations and thus, already included in IPC gains.

you continue to conflate IPC with PERF/WATT gains. I implore you to look a little bit more into this. It does not matter what the power consumption of the XSS is. We know the tflops number and we know the IPC gains. thats all we need.
 

Krisprolls

Banned
Can't wait for when people who upgrade from X1X to XSS realize every game now looks worse than before.

You can't make this up, MS just invented the backward next gen console.
 
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Krisprolls

Banned
MS should have just went with a $399 SX and called it a day.
So now current 1X owners have to pay $499 again to fully benefit from current 1X upgrades with next gen XB.... So every 3 years the XB comunity have to give up $499? Ouch!
So they either downgrade to take advantage of $299 or they spend another $499 in under 4 years to get full benefits.
sounds like a horrible console ecosystem to invest in.

Then you add it has a grand total of zero launch next gen exclusive and you've got the perfect console launch.
 
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