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[inner-G]

So which will provide the cleanest IQ? Downsampling on 1080p TVs or upscaled 4K?

More pixels can resolve more detail.

You lose detail when you down sample

 

[adamsapple]

So which will provide the cleanest IQ? Downsampling on 1080p TVs or upscaled 4K?

If you have a 4K TV, definitely the 4K option.

 

[onQ123]

If you have a 4K TV, definitely the 4K option.

But upscaling is the Devil & supersampling is Jesus now I'm confused.

Spoiler

Joking

 

[dark10x]

Color Depth Show Help : 10 Bit

The TV accepts a 10 bit input, and displays it smoothly. There are some tints visible in the grayscale, but overall a good result without any banding.

Yes, basically any modern decent 4K TV will accept 10 or 12-bit color input (and many older ones as well).

The issue is that NO set can accept 4K60 10-bit using 4:4:4 or RGB. It is 100% impossible right now due to a limitation of the HDMI spec. Yes, that includes that Hisense TV.

When the PS4 Pro outputs HDR (or any other device), if you want 10-bit color at 4K60, it will use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling to achieve that. RGB is only possible when using 8-bits per channel at 4K60.

I'm sure if your eyes are trained enough you can always detect some discrepancies. Going from 8bit to 10bit color depth does not mean 10bit color reproduction is perfect in every regard.

I'm beginning to suspect you really don't have much familiarity with the issue. This isn't some subtle thing we're talking about here. If content is using HDR properly and designed to utilize 10-bit color properly, using 8-bit color results in SEVERE banding.

Shadow Warrior 2 is the perfect test case for this since it's a PC game and you have full control over display output settings. When using HDR mode in that game with 8-bit color, the image is basically ruined in many scenes. Things like the dramatic sky gradients suffer from extremely noticeable banding lines. Not dithering, harsh lines. Switching to the higher bit depth and using HDR completely eliminates this resulting in completely smooth color gradients. The game is designed to take advantage of this higher bit depth and looks incorrect in HDR mode when this isn't properly configured.

8-bit looks fantastic and perfectly fine on most content since that's how it was designed to be viewed.

 

[Jakartalado]

So what should do DF now... PS4 Vs One Vs Pro 4K Vs Pro 1080???

They should stick with the current model comparing Xbox One and PS4 OG and do another video analysis for the PS4 Pro.

If they put together one single video comparing all the possible versions of PS4 Pro with PS4 OG and Xbox One we might get videos with over 15 minutes of analysis. That's not what a quick look

 

[harz-marz]

I am extremely excited by the tease from DF about a new method of showcasing video content. It will make it really helpful to see EXACTLY what the content will look like on our 4K screens.

Hype!

 

[potatohead]

So what should do DF now... PS4 Vs One Vs Pro 4K Vs Pro 1080???

Yea why not

 

[adamsapple]

So what should do DF now... PS4 Vs One Vs Pro 4K Vs Pro 1080???

Next year will be a beautiful confusing mess.

PS4 vs One vs Pro 4K vs Pro 1080p vs Scorpio 1080p vs Scorpio 4K vs PC

Spoiler

vs Switch

 

[Cartho]

Next year will be a beautiful confusing mess.

PS4 vs One vs Pro 4K vs Pro 1080p vs Scorpio 1080p vs Scorpio 4K vs PC

Spoiler

vs Switch

There's only one thing that will make it possible. Pie charts.

Sadly Polygon now have a trademark on the Pie chart in games journalism. We're doomed.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Next year will be a beautiful confusing mess.

PS4 vs One vs Pro 4K vs Pro 1080p vs Scorpio 1080p vs Scorpio 4K vs PC

Spoiler

vs Switch

Don't see a problem, creates more jobs.

 

[onQ123]

Next year will be a beautiful confusing mess.

PS4 vs One vs Pro 4K vs Pro 1080p vs Scorpio 1080p vs Scorpio 4K vs PC

Spoiler

vs Switch

They could just drop the PS4 & Xbox One & just use the PS4 Pro & Xbox Scorpio for their test like they do when they do the PC videos.

Spoiler

2018 is going to be a mess

 

[DieH@rd]

There's only one thing that will make it possible. Pie charts.

Sadly Polygon now have a trademark on the Pie chart in games journalism. We're doomed.

And Kyle Orland has a trademark on bar charts in games journalism.We're totally doomed.

 

[DieH@rd]

Next year will be a beautiful confusing mess.

PS4 vs One vs Pro 4K vs Pro 1080p vs Scorpio 1080p vs Scorpio 4K vs PC

Spoiler

vs Switch

You forgot one

Spoiler

S.

 

[lazer_bean]

They could just drop the PS4 & Xbox One & just use the PS4 Pro & Xbox Scorpio for their test like they do when they do the PC videos.

Spoiler

2018 is going to be a mess

There won't be as many players on Pro or Scorpio as on OG systems so they would be speaking to the minority though

 

[Steve McQueen]

Yes, basically any modern decent 4K TV will accept 10 or 12-bit color input (and many older ones as well).

The issue is that NO set can accept 4K60 10-bit using 4:4:4 or RGB. It is 100% impossible right now due to a limitation of the HDMI spec. Yes, that includes that Hisense TV.

When the PS4 Pro outputs HDR (or any other device), if you want 10-bit color at 4K60, it will use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling to achieve that. RGB is only possible when using 8-bits per channel at 4K60.

Been lurking this thread for some time now and I'm really getting more and more confused. I have a great Panny plasma 1080P tv and having read your comment on 4:4:4 and reading some other comments, I feel like I just should wait for HDMI 2.1.

I'm about to buy a Samsung UE55KS8000 and about to pull the trigger, but reading this thread

I'm confused...

 

[Sesuadra]

Oh I know, but I like reading their articles as well.

I actually like to read the articles more than to watch the videos...I'm just not a video guy...

Been lurking this thread for some time now and I'm really getting more and more confused. I have a great Panny plasma 1080P tv and having read your comment on 4:4:4 and reading some other comments, I feel like I just should wait for HDMI 2.1.

I'm about to buy a Samsung UE55KS8000 and about to pull the trigger, but reading this thread

I'm confused...

that's what I'm doing. I'll wait until late 2017 or 2018 until I buy a 4k tv.

 

[dark10x]

Been lurking this thread for some time now and I'm really getting more and more confused. I have a great Panny plasma 1080P tv and having read your comment on 4:4:4 and reading some other comments, I feel like I just should wait for HDMI 2.1.

I'm about to buy a Samsung UE55KS8000 and about to pull the trigger, but reading this thread

I'm confused...

I recommend testing it for yourself, if possible. 4:2:0 isn't a big deal for content. The increased pixel density of 4K displays helps tremendously there and it only really pops up if you're trying to use it for PC usage (pixel perfect text).

That said, if you've made it this far, you may as well wait and see what happens next.

 

[III-V]

I recommend testing it for yourself, if possible. 4:2:0 isn't a big deal for content. The increased pixel density of 4K displays helps tremendously there and it only really pops up if you're trying to use it for PC usage (pixel perfect text).

That said, if you've made it this far, you may as well wait and see what happens next.

Correct me if I am wrong, but

That said, if you are concerned with what the PS4 Pro will output, it matches the maximum available bandwidth set forth by the highest standard currently available.

All this other talk is just future, only, but its unlikely that even if your set supported hypothetical 2.1 that the PS4 Pro will put it out.

 

[Steve McQueen]

that's what I'm doing. I'll wait until late 2017 or 2018 until I buy a 4k tv.

I'm trying to tell that to myself. but seeing Forza 3 on 4K this afternoon....damn...it's hard to resist

I recommend testing it for yourself, if possible. 4:2:0 isn't a big deal for content. The increased pixel density of 4K displays helps tremendously there and it only really pops up if you're trying to use it for PC usage (pixel perfect text).

That said, if you've made it this far, you may as well wait and see what happens next.

Thanks John. Appreciate your reply So 4:2:0 will be good enough for just playing games on Scorpio and PS4 Pro?

 

[onQ123]

There won't be as many players on Pro or Scorpio as on OG systems so they would be speaking to the minority though

Which is the case when they use a high end PC to test the PC games

 

[Sesuadra]

I'm trying to tell that to myself. but seeing Forza 3 on 4K this afternoon....damn...it's hard to resist



Thanks John. Appreciate your reply So 4:2:0 will be good enough for just playing games on Scorpio and PS4 Pro?

I know I'm not John but well it is good enough for a lot of users here already ..

 

[Caayn]

I recommend testing it for yourself, if possible. 4:2:0 isn't a big deal for content. The increased pixel density of 4K displays helps tremendously there and it only really pops up if you're trying to use it for PC usage (pixel perfect text).

That said, if you've made it this far, you may as well wait and see what happens next.

Why drop all the way down to 4:2:0? A good TV should support 10/12bit with 4:2:2. My LG EG920v does support it at 4K/60hz.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Download or high quality 4K streaming?


Edit: by the way Youtube & other websites will have a pretty good upgrade for 4K content coming next year

The new AV1 isn't til latter part of next year

 

[dark10x]

Why drop all the way down to 4:2:0? A good TV should support 10/12bit with 4:2:2. My LG EG920v does support it at 4K/60hz.

Yeah, my LG B6 also supports this but I'm referring to the PS4 Pro and stuff like Shadow Warrior 2.

The Pro does either 4:2:0 or RGB at 4K60 but you can't couple RGB with 10 or 12-bit color right now. 4:2:2 is not an option there.

Shadow Warrior 2, then, only works properly in HDR mode when using 4:2:0. If using 4:2:2 with a higher bit depth, it still only sends 8-bit to the display when HDR is engaged for some reason. The game only properly outputs the higher bit depth when using 4:2:0 + 12-bit.

 

[Steve McQueen]

I know I'm not John but well it is good enough for a lot of users here already ..

Haha You're probably right....I'm reading waaaaay too much on GAF. That new TV is driving me nuts

If 4:2:0 is enough for gaming content, than I'll just buy one.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

But upscaling is the Devil & supersampling is Jesus now I'm confused.

Spoiler

Joking

So 4k is basically a form of anti aliasing?

 

[Humdinger]

summary:

-can't tell the difference between checkerboard 4K and native 4K unless you're practically kissing your tv, it's that good

Leadbetter from Digital Foundry pretty much said the same thing so it's not an exaggeration. The tech expert from Gamespot made a similar observation.

And the guy from CNET.

I agree as well based on my time.

Good to hear. Together with the impressive screenshot comparisons in this thread, this kind of info (that there won't be noticeable differences between native and checkerboard) have reassured me that the Pro is the right choice now, at 1080p, and a good choice in a year or two, when I buy a 4K TV.

the real measure will come if scorpio simply has XB1 games at native 4k (which seems a waste of power to me). I'm sure we'll see lots of silly arguing about native vs 'upscaled' if that happens and it'll get ugly really quickly.

Yup. At which point, it will be important to remember the above.

 

[Padinn]

So 4k is basically a form of anti aliasing?

Not exactly. Anti aliasing helps smooth images to lower resolution so by default 4k helps mitigate that. 4k also will include greater details, assuming the art assets are made with that in mind .

 

[onQ123]

So 4k is basically a form of anti aliasing?

Huh?

 

[dark10x]

Not exactly. Anti aliasing helps smooth images to lower resolution so by default 4k helps mitigate that. 4k also will include greater details, assuming the art assets are made with that in mind .

I think that confuses some people. Resolution is completely independent of asset quality and 4K absolutely benefits older games as well. Loading up something like Half-Life 2 at 4K60 is quite shocking when you see how much cleaner and sharper distant detail becomes.

 

[lazer_bean]

Which is the case when they use a high end PC to test the PC games

OK, I realize now that's what you said in your previous post

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Not exactly. Anti aliasing helps smooth images to lower resolution so by default 4k helps mitigate that. 4k also will include greater details, assuming the art assets are made with that in mind .

This might sound weird, but I'd be willing to sacrifice detail for less jaggies, that's really the one thing I pay attention to when it comes to graphics, I hate aliasing.

 

[Caayn]

Yeah, my LG B6 also supports this but I'm referring to the PS4 Pro and stuff like Shadow Warrior 2.

The Pro does either 4:2:0 or RGB at 4K60 but you can't couple RGB with 10 or 12-bit color right now. 4:2:2 is not an option there.

Shadow Warrior 2, then, only works properly in HDR mode when using 4:2:0. If using 4:2:2 with a higher bit depth, it still only sends 8-bit to the display when HDR is engaged for some reason. The game only properly outputs the higher bit depth when using 4:2:0 + 12-bit.

Ah gotcha, I wasn't aware that the PS4 Pro doesn't support 4:2:2, apologies if it has been stated in the last few pages orso. Feels like a strange omission by Sony to not include it.

For Shadow Warrior 2 to only work correctly in 4:2:0 doesn't make much sense to me. Might be a bug in the game or the NVAPI?

 

[III-V]

So 4k is basically a form of anti aliasing?

never thought of it like this before, but in essence, this can be an accurate analogy..

similar to the nyquiste sampling theorem, infinite sample rate would produce the analog of the orig signal, lower sample rate cause aliasing.

 

[family_guy]

Been lurking this thread for some time now and I'm really getting more and more confused. I have a great Panny plasma 1080P tv and having read your comment on 4:4:4 and reading some other comments, I feel like I just should wait for HDMI 2.1.

I'm about to buy a Samsung UE55KS8000 and about to pull the trigger, but reading this thread

I'm confused...

How many PS4 Pro games do you think will have 4k 60fps to where this will even matter?

 

[Steve McQueen]

How many PS4 Pro games do you think will have 4k 60fps to where this will even matter?

That's not really my point. Would sure be nice though.
I'm just scared that I buy a tv now and that dynamic metadata ( HDMI 2.1 ) is out next year and will be futureproof. Imo...it might still be early days buying decent 4K tv for a decent price.

 

[BigEmil]

More pixels can resolve more detail.

You lose detail when you down sample

You don't lose detail when downsampling it's increased

Images are details cropped and resized x2 from a)1920x1080 and b)1920x1080 downsampled from 3680x2070. Open in separate tabs and flip side by side to see the difference in Dota 2 a game that lack AA options. ( Keep in mind that these are upscaled)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509076&

 

[III-V]

That's not really my point. Would sure be nice though.
I'm just scared that I buy a tv now and that dynamic metadata ( HDMI 2.1 ) is out next year and will be futureproof. Imo...it might still be early days buying decent 4K tv for a decent price.

its absolutely early days for 4k and HDR. 4K is established. HDR is in its infancy.

If thats a concern, then give it about 3 years and the highest end sets should be fully compliant to the more ambitious HDR goals.

For me, I know I will buy another set in 3 years, so its not a concern, but I really enjoy being an early adopter, cutting edge and figuring out bugs/workarounds.

You don't lose detail when downsampling it's increased

no need to open in seperate tabs, the difference is quite clear already.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

So the Pro is the ultimate 1080p machine, am I reading this right?

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

That's not really my point. Would sure be nice though.
I'm just scared that I buy a tv now and that dynamic metadata ( HDMI 2.1 ) is out next year and will be futureproof. Imo...it might still be early days buying decent 4K tv for a decent price.

Nothing is ever future proof really though is it, so how long do you wait ?because when HDMI 2.1 comes out, there will be something new coming the year after, HDMI 2.2 or HDMI 3 or whatever. I mean companies are already working on 8k TV's and 4k hasn't even taken off properly yet.

While it might be smart to wait until next year in a way, the very latest TV's now, are already very good for HDR, so I guess its down to if you can wait or not.

 

[BRocknRolla]

So the Pro is the ultimate 1080p machine, am I reading this right?

Among consoles? Yeah. It's the most powerful one our there so it should be.

 

[family_guy]

That's not really my point. Would sure be nice though.
I'm just scared that I buy a tv now and that dynamic metadata ( HDMI 2.1 ) is out next year and will be futureproof. Imo...it might still be early days buying decent 4K tv for a decent price.

At this poiny we don't know if 2.1 is able to be updated in firmware. However Samsung went on record to say the functionality would come to their 2016 tv line. Not sure if that means they will do a firmware update or that the One Connect box can be swapped out for a newer one.

 

[Backfoggen]

You don't lose detail when downsampling it's increased


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509076&

You absolutely lose detail when downsampling to 1080p from a higher resolution. Outputting the source framebuffer is preferable.
The comparison should be 3680x2070 upscaled to 4K vs 3680x2070 downscaled to 1080p.

 

[III-V]

At this poiny we don't know if 2.1 is able to be updated in firmware. However Samsung went on record to say the functionality would come to their 2016 tv line. Not sure if that means they will do a firmware update or that the One Connect box can be swapped out for a newer one.

interesting, did not realize that. is this from official source?

 

[family_guy]

interesting, did not realize that. is this from official source?

This is what I found. I don't see anything as far as an official press statement.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1463138030

 

[Lockjaw333]

Been lurking this thread for some time now and I'm really getting more and more confused. I have a great Panny plasma 1080P tv and having read your comment on 4:4:4 and reading some other comments, I feel like I just should wait for HDMI 2.1.

I'm about to buy a Samsung UE55KS8000 and about to pull the trigger, but reading this thread

I'm confused...

For me the combination of the nebulous information regarding 4k, HDR, 444 chroma, etc, along with the fact that I'm still severely attached to my panny plasma is enough to make me want to wait until at least next fall to jump in on a 4k HDR set.

I'm still bitter that plasma is gone, it's so superior to LCD. I haven't seen a single LCD set come close to it, including my 4k Vizio m series (non HDR).

I feel like OLED is the path forward, but it's still way too expensive. Just not a good time to buy right now i think.

 

[Smo21]

As someone who only has a 1080p TV I hope we see more 1080 optimized modes be it draw distance frame rate or better textures. I don't mind the down sample but it seems like the easier option for devs.

 

[III-V]

This is what I found. I don't see anything as far as an official press statement.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1463138030

very cool. I hope it's not just samsung who can implement this.

 

[UrbanRats]

Been lurking this thread for some time now and I'm really getting more and more confused. I have a great Panny plasma 1080P tv and having read your comment on 4:4:4 and reading some other comments, I feel like I just should wait for HDMI 2.1.

I'm about to buy a Samsung UE55KS8000 and about to pull the trigger, but reading this thread

I'm confused...

What's the rush? You got a plasma with (likely) good black levels and a good PQ, why jump on the 4K-HDR boat when it's still THIS fresh? Especially for HDR there's barely any content (you can count the games on one hand, probably.

Just wait it out and at best enjoy downsampling, for now.

I also have a plasma (ST60) and personally i'm waiting for a good OLED with a decent price, because i can't go back to shitty black levels, or at the very least an excellent FA lcd.

 

[cb1115]

Yeah, my LG B6 also supports this but I'm referring to the PS4 Pro and stuff like Shadow Warrior 2.

The Pro does either 4:2:0 or RGB at 4K60 but you can't couple RGB with 10 or 12-bit color right now. 4:2:2 is not an option there.

Shadow Warrior 2, then, only works properly in HDR mode when using 4:2:0. If using 4:2:2 with a higher bit depth, it still only sends 8-bit to the display when HDR is engaged for some reason. The game only properly outputs the higher bit depth when using 4:2:0 + 12-bit.

so if your TV supports 4K60 but not HDR, you're supposed to pick the RGB option on the Pro right?