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Disabled Father Killed by Police in Charlotte, NC (Protests Follow)

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n64coder

Member
The facts are that this guy had a gun, wasn't complying with police, had a mental illness, and was eventually shot by a black cop. Hell, the police chief is black too. Where does racism come into play with this particular incident?

The issue for me is that there are way too many police shootings for what seems to be non-violent encounters. I don't understand why police officers are not trying to defuse the situations using non-lethal ways. There are a disproportionate number of black folks getting killed by law enforcement and it needs to stop. Need to stop having biases that most black people are a threat to society.
 
Body cam:

Red shirt pulls the gun out from under Keith and slides it backward between his own legs. You can hear it sliding on the ground.

Dash cam:

Doesn't look like Keith ever raised up his arms/pointed the gun at a cop.

Yep, red shirt's actions and the sounds point to him moving a gun, but that a bad shoot.
 

Keri

Member
The dashcam video has him walking backwards and just getting gunned down.

Don't see him make any obvious threatening moves. His arms arms are by his sides...

Oh boy.

If he had a gun and wasn't dropping it, I think that's enough to be threatening. They can't wait for him to raise the weapon.
 

MThanded

I Was There! Official L Receiver 2/12/2016
If he had a gun and wasn't dropping it, I think that's enough to be threatening. They can't wait for him to raise the weapon.
Possessing a weapon alone is enough? We have seen videos of other people who have shot and killed, or shot at others and have not been killed by the police. They were possessing weapons at the moment of their capture.
 
The guy is shuffling backward looking high as shit. How the hell do you interpret that as threatening? They saw him toking up, so how could adults not understand that maaaaaybe he wasn't dropping his gun because he was tweaking and scared? Animals.
 

Keri

Member
Possessing a weapon alone is enough? We have seen videos of other people who have shot and killed, or shot at others and have not been killed by the police. They were possessing weapons at the moment of their capture.

If you're ordered to drop a weapon by the police and you don't, I think they're justified in finding you to be a threat. I still can't tell for sure if he had a weapon, from the videos, but if that's what happened, I think the shooting is unfortunate but justified. If they wait to see if he raises the weapon at someone, they're putting themselves (and anyone near by) in danger, because they probably won't be able to fire fast enough at that point to disable them.
 
If he had a gun and wasn't dropping it, I think that's enough to be threatening. They can't wait for him to raise the weapon.

They could have backed off and secured the scene. Give him a chance to come out peacefully instead of taking up to 11 with the yelling and breaking the window.

On the flip side, at least they gave enough of a shit this time to try and give him some medical attention.
 

n64coder

Member
If NC is an open carry state, why did they need to investigate him? Was the issue that he was using marijuana in the car thereby potentially being DWI? Or you can't have a gun and use drugs at the same time?
 

Beefy

Member
If you're ordered to drop a weapon by the police and you don't, I think they're justified in finding you to be a threat. I still can't tell for sure if he had a weapon, from the videos, but if that's what happened, I think the shooting is unfortunate but justified. If they wait to see if he raises the weapon at someone, they're putting themselves (and anyone near by) in danger, because they probably won't be able to fire fast enough at that point to disable them.

No way is it justified.
 
If you're ordered to drop a weapon by the police and you don't, I think they're justified in finding you to be a threat. I still can't tell for sure if he had a weapon, from the videos, but if that's what happened, I think the shooting is unfortunate but justified. If they wait to see if he raises the weapon at someone, they're putting themselves (and anyone near by) in danger, because they probably won't be able to fire fast enough at that point to disable them.

He almost certainly had a weapon, but he didn't do anything any objective observer would classify as threatening. He toked up in his car then freaked out when a bunch of cops started pointing guns at him and screaming. That's not something you deserve to die for, and these cops should absolutely be held accountable. That police train themselves to use force recklessly does not mean the policy is actually right, morally.
 

hoos30

Member
They could have backed off and secured the scene. Give him a chance to come out peacefully instead of taking up to 11 with the yelling and breaking the window.

On the flip side, at least they gave enough of a shit this time to try and give him some medical attention.

Seems like the police escalated the fuck out of that situation. What in the world does their training suggest here?
 

Keri

Member
They could have backed off and secured the scene. Give him a chance to come out peacefully instead of taking up to 11 with the yelling and breaking the window.

On the flip side, at least they gave enough of a shit this time to try and give him some medical attention.

I think that's true, but only a good option if there aren't any civilians near by. I don't know if there were a lot of people near this incident?
 

Infinite

Member
If you're ordered to drop a weapon by the police and you don't, I think they're justified in finding you to be a threat. I still can't tell for sure if he had a weapon, from the videos, but if that's what happened, I think the shooting is unfortunate but justified. If they wait to see if he raises the weapon at someone, they're putting themselves (and anyone near by) in danger, because they probably won't be able to fire fast enough at that point to disable them.
There's no way this is justified.
 
If you're ordered to drop a weapon by the police and you don't, I think they're justified in finding you to be a threat. I still can't tell for sure if he had a weapon, from the videos, but if that's what happened, I think the shooting is unfortunate but justified. If they wait to see if he raises the weapon at someone, they're putting themselves (and anyone near by) in danger, because they probably won't be able to fire fast enough at that point to disable them.

Just having a weapon isn’t enough. The person has to show intent on using it and from these videos he wasn’t showing any intent at all. He was walking backwards with his hands at his side. If he suddenly made for a quick action like he was reaching for the weapon then yes that could be justify. However, from the looks of the videos it’s not. Also they already had their guns drawn on him, if he would have went for his weapon he would be dead before he could get off any aimed shots.
 

jet1911

Member
If you're ordered to drop a weapon by the police and you don't, I think they're justified in finding you to be a threat. I still can't tell for sure if he had a weapon, from the videos, but if that's what happened, I think the shooting is unfortunate but justified. If they wait to see if he raises the weapon at someone, they're putting themselves (and anyone near by) in danger, because they probably won't be able to fire fast enough at that point to disable them.

You know I'd bet that the exact same situation in any other country of the civilised world would not end up with the guy dead. That's the big problem.
 

Keri

Member
He almost certainly had a weapon, but he didn't do anything any objective observer would classify as threatening. He toked up in his car then freaked out when a bunch of cops started pointing guns at him and screaming. That's not something you deserve to die for, and these cops should absolutely be held accountable. That police train themselves to use force recklessly does not mean the policy is actually right, morally.

The problem is, the police have no way of knowing why he held on to his weapon (assuming one was there). As long as he keeps it, he can use it and being high and scared, doesn't make him less of a threat.

The problem with this situation (again, assuming a gun, because I can't tell), is that it's a complete gamble: If the police wait and he raises the gun, he'll be able to get a shot off before they can stop him and possibly hurt or kill an officer or nearby civilian. Maybe he won't do anything or maybe he'll kill someone. Those are the risks. I don't know if it's fair to say: "Well, wait and see if he tries to kill someone first."

Just having a weapon isn’t enough. The person has to show intent on using it and from these videos he wasn’t showing any intent at all. He was walking backwards with his hands at his side. If he suddenly made for a quick action like he was reaching for the weapon then yes that could be justify. However, from the looks of the videos it’s not. Also they already had their guns drawn on him, if he would have went for his weapon he would be dead before he could get off any aimed shots.

I think he's showing intent to use the weapon, by not dropping it. I mean, again, maybe he wasn't going to do anything. But as long as you keep a weapon, it's possible you're planning to use it. Also, I'm just relying on what I heard on the news: I heard an expert state that tests have indicated officers can't react fast enough to disable someone, if they wait for them to raise the weapon? But who knows, that could be wrong?
 

johnny956

Member
Yup you can see why the police didn't want to release the video because it doesn't show him doing anything threatening regardless if he has a gun or not.


I think rioting will probably continue this weekend, why the heck did they release this on a Saturday evening? It's like they want the rioting to happen
 
If the gun were an imminent threat, why would an officer take a baton to a gun fight?

It undermines the argument. Why would you take a baton to the passenger window of a car if the occupant is holding a gun?
 

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
The problem is, the police have no way of knowing why he held on to his weapon (assuming one was there). As long as he keeps it, he can use it and being high and scared, doesn't make him less of a threat.

The problem with this situation (again, assuming a gun, because I can't tell), is that it's a complete gamble: If the police wait and he raises the gun, he'll be able to get a shot off before they can stop him and possibly hurt or kill an officer or nearby civilian. Maybe he won't do anything or maybe he'll kill someone. Those are the risks. I don't know if it's fair to say: "Well, wait and see if he tries to kill someone first."

Well, if he didn't have the gun in hand, you don't think when he goes to drop the gun they won't pump him full of bullets? Based on your logic?

The other question I have is why did his wife say he didn't have a weapon when he did?
 
The problem is, the police have no way of knowing why he held on to his weapon (assuming one was there). As long as he keeps it, he can use it and being high and scared, doesn't make him less of a threat.

The problem with this situation (again, assuming a gun, because I can't tell), is that it's a complete gamble: If the police wait and he raises the gun, he'll be able to get a shot off before they can stop him and possibly hurt or kill an officer or nearby civilian. Maybe he won't do anything or maybe he'll kill someone. Those are the risks. I don't know if it's fair to say: "Well, wait and see if he tries to kill someone first."

I didn't see any civilians in the wife's footage, which gave a pretty good wide shot of the area. And don't we always hear cops telling us how dangerous the job is? Yes, there are risks, but they need to use the procedures they have in place to minimize the risk vs. kill someone too minimized the risk.
 

Keri

Member
Well, if he didn't have the gun in hand, you don't when he goes to drop the gun they won't pump him full of bullets? Based on your logic?

Sorry, I don't follow. Are you saying, how does he know they won't shoot him when he drops the weapon? I guess the answer is he doesn't, but I'd wager the odds are still higher of getting shot, if you keep a weapon.

I didn't see any civilians in the wife's footage, which gave a pretty good wide shot of the area. And don't we always hear cops telling us how dangerous the job is? Yes, there are risks, but they need to use the procedures they have in place to minimize the risk vs. kill someone too minimized the risk.

The wife is a civilian.
 
I think he's showing intent to use the weapon, by not dropping it. I mean, again, maybe he wasn't going to do anything. But as long as you keep a weapon, it's possible you're planning to use it. Also, I'm just relying on what I heard on the news: I heard an expert state that tests have indicated officers can't react fast enough to disable someone, if they wait for them to raise the weapon? But who knows, that could be wrong?

Multiple officers already had their weapons drawn and pointed at him. They would have easily killed him before he could even try anything. It would be completely different if the officers were still holstered.
 

Lyn

Banned
If the gun were an imminent threat, why would an officer take a baton to a gun fight?

This seems like a really weird way to phrase it. He didn't bring a baton to a gun fight. He was bringing a baton to help smash a window while still staying clear of that window. It was not meant, at least at the time, to approach or subdue the man with. It was just a means of finding a way into the vehicle that the suspect was not leaving up to that time.
 

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
Sorry, I don't follow. Are you saying, how does he know they won't shoot him when he drops the weapon? I guess the answer is he doesn't, but I'd wager the odds are still higher of getting shot, if you keep a weapon.



The wife is a civilian.

No I meant if the weapon is holstered and he's telling him to drop it, how does the cop know he won't just shoot him instead? However, this is moot and it seems that he had the gun in hand.

I'm really boggled as to why his wife said he didn't have a weapon.
 

Keri

Member
Multiple officers already had their weapons drawn and pointed at him. They would have easily killed him before he could even try anything. It would be completely different if the officers were still holstered.

How do you know this is true? I have to admit that saying "I heard it on the news" (what I've said) isn't really compelling or convincing either, but I don't know. I'm not so sure that people can aim and shoot accurately, in the millisecond it takes for someone to raise their arm.
 
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