And I fully expect you to be overly optimistic of anything released and equally dismissive of any substantive criticism. So it works out.
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DmC Director Tameem Antoniades Responds on Dante and Other Things
- Thread starter IC_Champion
- Start date
And I fully expect you to be overly optimistic of anything released and equally dismissive of any substantive criticism. So it works out.
They already have your attention. Even the people who hate what this game is, saying that couldn't care less about it, still muster the energy to post in the threads and chastise the game and NT.
The substantive criticism you speak of is mostly based on conjecture, and not to mention an overly negative attitude towards the developers and Capcom.
IC_Champion
Member
Well, the reason for the hatred of the redesign is that the "boilerplate quasi-feminine Japanese antihero" as you put it, was a classic staple, or icon of videogame heroes. For example, if a change was done to any regarded and respected character in the last 20 years like Dante, then yes, you'd damned well better believe that there will be backlash. It's like if they ever changed Mario for the sake of attracting gamers on the other side of the spectrum.
But, I think that we are past looks at this stage. What the old school, die-hard DMC fans hate now is the arrogance of the developer and publisher.
Soooooo go get the DMC HD collection and quit your belly aching.
Your positivity is grounded in pure conjecture and PR bullshit. That's all either of us have right now since that's all we've been shown.
Absolutely not. Belly-aching is fantastic. I love it. It got us the Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut (kudos to Bioware for trying to rectify a wrong, but it won't work).
IC_Champion
Member
I see. I was wondering whether that was fake. I now know that it is not.
Capcom isn't trying to get my attention. If they were they would've made a DMC5. Or you know tried to make the game 60FPS.
I am vested in the project because it's still called DMC. As long as they advertise and claim that the game retains the "DMC DNA" I have to be vested in it. I don't want the game to fail or anything horrible like that, I want a good DMC game at end of the day or at least a good action game.
Most other DMC fans have written the game off completely and they don't bother to post about it anymore. The DMC boards are pretty much dead around the Internet. Sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself, for sure I am in the minority even among DMC fans that I am coming to post here. The DMC fans who take the time to even post in DmC threads have a low chance of even purchasing the game (hell I can't confirm that myself, I am leaning more towards a rental).
Capcom should be more interested in garnering support from the casual new gamer crowd over disgruntled "2001" DMC fans. We are a rare breed and this is especially true because more DMC "fans" started the series with DMC4 than any other DMC game. It's a niche audience and clearly the whole point of this project was to expand the user base.
I am vested in the project because it's still called DMC. As long as they advertise and claim that the game retains the "DMC DNA" I have to be vested in it. I don't want the game to fail or anything horrible like that, I want a good DMC game at end of the day or at least a good action game.
Most other DMC fans have written the game off completely and they don't bother to post about it anymore. The DMC boards are pretty much dead around the Internet. Sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself, for sure I am in the minority even among DMC fans that I am coming to post here. The DMC fans who take the time to even post in DmC threads have a low chance of even purchasing the game (hell I can't confirm that myself, I am leaning more towards a rental).
Capcom should be more interested in garnering support from the casual new gamer crowd over disgruntled "2001" DMC fans. We are a rare breed and this is especially true because more DMC "fans" started the series with DMC4 than any other DMC game. It's a niche audience and clearly the whole point of this project was to expand the user base.
I didn't say anything about Ninja Theory.
That's a fair explanation, though one I can't relate to as I find little value in the series' characters. Thank you.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I don't think any action game is better then Bayonetta, but at least Capcom got pretty damn close a couple times. NT isn't even in the same league, let alone the ballpark
BeautifulMemory
Member
I still find the characters design to be ugly and unrelatable. The little we have seen is not stylish for me, despite NT's claims. It's hard to get excited too when the weapons are ugly so far and are the inferior versions of others they imitate
Edit: play DMC3 again if you think the series was getting stale. There's so much to be expanded upon there
Edit: play DMC3 again if you think the series was getting stale. There's so much to be expanded upon there
DMC can still easily surpass Bayonetta. In terms of mechanics, DMC4 still has a higher execution ceiling and more rewards for your input at the highest of level. What Bayonetta did better than DMC4/DMC3 can be surpassed with more time/effort in areas outside of the raw combat. There is also much more that can be done with the lore of the series, a lot of character background and plot can be covered, more areas explored within the demon world and more insight into Sparda's legacy.
IC_Champion
Member
Had NT done their reboot (I am sorry "Alternative Universe") with Sparda, I would have viewed the game in a more positive angle, cause a lot of fans wanted to know about the character. Another thing that is killing it for me was the inclusion of Angels. It's one thing to reference angels in the forms of objects in the DMC universe, but having it so Dante comes from an Angel/Demon/Human lineage is such a Hollywood-esque cop out.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I'm not going to lie. For all my bellyaching from the first dev comments on NG3 I gave a lot more leeway than I have DmC. After the disaster it turned out be for NG fans, but with a serivcable action underneath (it's still a decent action game) I can't see Ninja theory doing any worse.
With that in mind, I'm more hopeful I'm wrong and that DmC won't be a total train wreck.
That said, I do think that unless it is absolutely amazing on every level (which I'm 99% sure it won't) it is going to fail. People have hated on it too long, it releases the same year as the HD collection and it still seems like Ninja theory don't get it. Reading the OXM interview, he still sees this game as some grandiose work of artistic expression which in my opinion is not the philosophy that creates timeless gaming classics.
I'm watching and I have revised my view to I will give this a rental. But I make no bones about it. We are witnessing the death of the action genre as we know it and if DMC and NG make it to next generation, it will be in the realm of mindless b-tier games like lollipop chainsaw.
The holy trinity is dead. Both creatively and sales wise.
With that in mind, I'm more hopeful I'm wrong and that DmC won't be a total train wreck.
That said, I do think that unless it is absolutely amazing on every level (which I'm 99% sure it won't) it is going to fail. People have hated on it too long, it releases the same year as the HD collection and it still seems like Ninja theory don't get it. Reading the OXM interview, he still sees this game as some grandiose work of artistic expression which in my opinion is not the philosophy that creates timeless gaming classics.
I'm watching and I have revised my view to I will give this a rental. But I make no bones about it. We are witnessing the death of the action genre as we know it and if DMC and NG make it to next generation, it will be in the realm of mindless b-tier games like lollipop chainsaw.
The holy trinity is dead. Both creatively and sales wise.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
There is still revengeance and devil's third.
Do we know who's directing Revengeance?
Dave1988
Member
Okay. Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden. What's the third game?
Kenji Saito, apparently the main programmer for Bayonetta, so the game is in good hands.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Bayo. In SEGA's condition there will never be a sequel greenlit. Though I'm not certain if only SEGA would be making that decision, I can't see any of the other struggling Japanese publishers being convinced that Bayonetta 2 is a financially sound idea.
Ah, that's good to hear.
legacyzero
Banned
I'm actually pretty excited about this.
Am I in the minority, here? Sometimes its nice just to mix things up!
I'm not sure why they didn't go with a 60 FPS, but as long as it's a consistent 30, then I'll be ok.
Am I in the minority, here? Sometimes its nice just to mix things up!
I'm not sure why they didn't go with a 60 FPS, but as long as it's a consistent 30, then I'll be ok.
Elginer
Member
I'm with you. I'm excited for it and am looking forward to a new experience.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
True. But I'm preparing for disappointment for both titles, for other reasons outside the combat from now.
revengance will have the albatross of the MG franchise and fanbase that doesn't want that game, much as it seems crazy to action fans. We aren't enough to support our own pillars of the genre, never mind a new IP, judging by these new directions
Devils third may be amazing, it may be shit. I'm still in wait and see with that one. I haven't seen a shooter do meele combat right (well vanquish did have the potenital, but it fell short)
Good gameplay is timeless, good experiences are disposable. The biggest complaints against ninja theory is they prefer to create the latter and DMC prior to this has been about the former.
A decent action game that doesn't warrant multiple playthroughs isn't DMC Imo. How many people are dusting off their copies of heavenly sword and enslaved every few months?
Seraphinianus
Banned
I think it'll be better than NG3 on its own terms, but not a good hardcore action game.
I have a lot of faith in Devil's Third. Itagaki is taking his sweet ass time and last time he was able to do that, we got Ninja Gaiden, Ninja Gaiden Black, and DOA Ultimate...three of my favorites last gen, all of which had delays to fine tune. The quality didn't drop until he was churning them out quickly.
I have a lot of faith in Devil's Third. Itagaki is taking his sweet ass time and last time he was able to do that, we got Ninja Gaiden, Ninja Gaiden Black, and DOA Ultimate...three of my favorites last gen, all of which had delays to fine tune. The quality didn't drop until he was churning them out quickly.
Pretty much. A lot of people are viewing DMC fans, who critique DmC openly, as stubborn. The truth of the matter though, is that a game like DmC right now just doesn't appeal to me. I only play action games with depth, even if the areas are different. I've stated that I am not the biggest Bayo fan but I still enjoy the depth in mix-ups. The simple sheer amount of options in Bayo creates depth if you choose to pursue it. The better NG games have great depth in rush down and space control. Bayo and DMC have less rush-down since the combat engines come from Kamiya. His combat systems involve using specials, styles, or forms to control space instead of standard player movement. However, it is fragmented or over-ally transitory due to this reliance. DMC just has depth all over.
So where is the depth in DmC? I'm certainly looking for it. And what I've seen mostly is emulation of past DMC titles watered down. So why would I, an action fan who only plays titles with significant depth, care about DmC? Call me stubborn but I don't want to play a game that doesn't interest me.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I think Devil's Third will be fun
but I don't think it'll be a timing based action game,(30 FPS and multiplayer focus. Itagaki looking at shooters as competition) so I don't get why people keep bringing it up in these threads.
Revengeance is going to be amazing. Metal Gear Fanbase is much larger than people that post on the internet and I can't imagine anyone who liked 4 wouldn't be excited about the chance to play as a cyborg ninja.
but I don't think it'll be a timing based action game,(30 FPS and multiplayer focus. Itagaki looking at shooters as competition) so I don't get why people keep bringing it up in these threads.
Revengeance is going to be amazing. Metal Gear Fanbase is much larger than people that post on the internet and I can't imagine anyone who liked 4 wouldn't be excited about the chance to play as a cyborg ninja.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I hope so. If revengance is a breakout hit. It will make publishers notice and stop trying to dumb the genre the fuck down.
That was also the impression I got from Devil's Third. Itagaki is doing something different this time around. I don't know how much of an action game will be included in this shooter.
As for Revengeance, Raiden not written by Kojima may actually get me to like Raiden. It's on my watch list after the announcement of Platinum Games as developer.
I believe Platinum Games is handling only the gameplay, so KojiPro will still have power over things like writing, etc. :\
If someone can confirm this, that'd be great.
Atleast we might get a proper in-depth sequel to DMC4 after DmC is out of the way. It's truly sad if Capcom are going to ignore all the gameplay mechanics that they've created and perfected from the main series (minus DMC2). I hope the series recovers and goes back to the old structure and base their upcoming games on that. Too bad I can't say the same thing about the Ninja Gaiden series and Team Ninja since most of the people responsible for creating the gameplay mechanics in that series have left the company. The DMC series as we know it could still be recovered.
:\
huh..I thought it will be Hiroshi Shibata (Bayonetta Lead game designer),now I am worried about Rising.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Etsu Tamari is the Rising script writer(of both versions)
His only other video game credit is for the data base in MGS4 so really nothing to go on to gauge quality at this point.
Atleast it's being developed by Platinum, so when you skip cutscenes you'll have a bit more to do besides walking down a hallway to trigger the next one
He's probably working on Kamiya's current project with him.
Both Bayo and DMC4 have top level rushdown. Bayo through Panther mode and DMC4 through flying guard cancel of Dante as well as other movement tricks that he has thanks to both RG, Trickster and DT. Nero on the other hand is not a rushdown specialist but he doesn't need to as he is a beast of his own (like Shuffle cancel into Calibur for LTG pseudo dash).
DMC4 (most specifically Dante) has the most untapped combat out of all the top tier action games. Some of the stuff that Dante is theoretically capable of doing is not possible by a human person (like multiple StarRaves combined with Lucifer guard cancels LTG) because it requires like 10+ PRECISELY TIMED inputs/actions in less than a second. You could technically go above 600 APM with Dante and not even repeat an action within a second or two while maintaining almost just frame level of timings. That is some god level stuff right there and it wasn't until we got the PC version of the game were players able to push the game further thanks to various mods and trainers.
I got way off topic there. In any case I am expecting the most from MG Rising in terms of being a successful stylish action game (sales and quality wise). I don't even know if Devil's Third is going to be in the same veins as these games.
What I don't get mostly is the absence of new gameplay ideas with DmC. The only emphasis has been on the mutating environment. Yet, all mechanics so far are a rehash. So where is the NT make-over except for the character design and this environmental deal? DMC has always been about adding "significant" enhancements to combat each iteration, even DMC2. Just have to wait and see I guess.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
This is just daft. If you want the same thing, then just play the older games. Hell, you can even play them in HD now. I'm not saying this new direction for the series is the right way to go, but demanding the same old shit with shinier graphics is so ridiculous yet depressingly common amongst gamers.
AcceptableGhost
Member
Why do Ninja Theory even make games? It seems like they actively dislike gaming in general, maybe they can't get movie funding for their terrible ideas? Their response to actual minite to minute gameplay is always like a 1 line "yeah itll be great don't worry" and then proceed to talk about their SICK CINEMATIC STORY.
That's all transitory or relying on specialized mechanics. Because there are moments of absence, there is less rush-down. NG on vanilla has a significant rush-down game that doesn't skip a beat. That's why I said "less" and not poor. I'm not a fan of losing space control depending on the "state of the game" even if I choose against it. More options are great but Kamiya has created systems to make up for lack of space control. NG built their game around it. And that is the main reason I really enjoy the top-tier NG titles.
That doesn't make any sense. It is perfectly acceptable to analyze games before release.
DmC at least on paper could be on par or more than DMC4 Dante in terms of options available to Dante at one time. Apparently weapon swap is on the D-pad and the Angel/Devil forms are on the Triggers. When you press a trigger, you are changing the movelist on the attack buttons (basically like changing what /\ and O do) and there are 3 forms of this. With addition of weapon swap, by just changing a main weapon you additional get 3 more weapons in thanks to the form system and just by swapping between 2 weapons you are actually swapping between 6.
This is the only thing that has me slightly excited if the game is actually made out to be this way. They did say that they are pushing critical mass on the weapons but so far we have only seen like 3.
PhoenixSFT
Member
I'm excited about this because I like Ninja Theory. I don't understand all the hate they get, Enslaved is one of my favorite games this gen. I like DMC too, so I'm a little wary of the fighting system in this game, but I know NT will at least tell a good story.
AcceptableGhost
Member
Stories are shallow & lowest common denominator, DMC is not.
SolidSnakex
Member
There's your answer. Capcom chose a developer that's known more for their storytelling than gameplay mechanics. DMC is a series where gameplay is king and everything else is secondary.
I thought the previous DMC games both had a good story and gameplay. I doubt I can say the same about the gameplay of DmC. I can't help but see it as a downgrade from the previous games in the series.
First Name
Member
I don't think they're saying they want the exact same thing except different graphics, just that they don't see the need to completely change the foundations in a sequel. I'm sure that they'd be fine with a new game with additions and tweaks (hence saying they'd be fine with a game that had the "feel" of devil may cry).
I don't see anything wrong with an incremental approach versus a tear everything down and rebuild it approach when dealing with sequels (assuming what's built afterwards is better). Both have their place.
The only issue then is getting into the re-skin/retread of Bayo. Bayo is already the colorful options one of the trinity. All the damn weapons and moves are crazy. Yet there is a huge lack of individuality which really grinds on the game IMO. NG and DMC weapons have personalities. Shit like Nevan is godlike. So can NT really create a Nevan type weapon? Or the diversity of shifting NG weapons even if a lot of the weapon range remains close? Same thing with the different forms. If it is like some light and dark shit, then that's not going to fly. You would hope that again, the different forms are given their own personality. Like angel using more fast-paced crowd control and devil being stun/power based.
We've talked about this before though. It takes us like a matter of minutes to conceptualize some really cool stuff based on what we have been given. Yet we are at the mercy of NT executing some of this shit. So the question is whether you have faith in NT to create a Nevan or a DT system. This game needs some individuality within the combat and has yet to show a lick of it.
My GUESS as to how they are handling it:
Weapon load out = Left/Right on D-pad swaps between Rebellion and Gilgamesh (gauntlet weapon just for the sake of example)
With Rebellion equipped you get Scythe in Angel form and Axe in Demon form on top of the Rebellion default sword in Normal form.
With Gilgamesh equipped you get Beowulf in Angel form and Ifrit in Demon form on top of the Gilgamesh in Normal form.
My guess is that the Angel and Demon form essentially adds more variety and options to a single class of weapon. Like your default weapon may be a Gauntlet but through Angel/Demon form they become like 2 different types of gauntlets with different properties (speed vs power).
Up/Down swaps between Firearms and given that we have seen Gunslinger like moves it's going to be interesting how they handle that as well without a dedicated style button.
Weapon load out = Left/Right on D-pad swaps between Rebellion and Gilgamesh (gauntlet weapon just for the sake of example)
With Rebellion equipped you get Scythe in Angel form and Axe in Demon form on top of the Rebellion default sword in Normal form.
With Gilgamesh equipped you get Beowulf in Angel form and Ifrit in Demon form on top of the Gilgamesh in Normal form.
My guess is that the Angel and Demon form essentially adds more variety and options to a single class of weapon. Like your default weapon may be a Gauntlet but through Angel/Demon form they become like 2 different types of gauntlets with different properties (speed vs power).
Up/Down swaps between Firearms and given that we have seen Gunslinger like moves it's going to be interesting how they handle that as well without a dedicated style button.
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