The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What the fuck
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Feminist Frequency: Not Your Exotic Fantasy - Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
- Thread starter lightskintwin
- Start date
What the fuck
petran79
Banned
Where does Anita stand on Shantae?
Surely she should count as a positive dark-skinned heroine, right? Or is she a stereotype too?
EDIT: To clarify I ask this because I was a bit surpised at her disdain for Elena, but then I realise that I know barely anything about world history or culture other than through media so I'm not a good judge on what could be considered a stereotype and what couldn't be.
Shantae is kinda a spiritual successor to Wonder Boy IV.
But things work in reverse as well. Remember that there were complaints initially in the Kickstarter campaign for turning her more light skinned.
Same for VF4 Vanessa. There were negative comments that RE5 Sheeva wasnt made too dark skinned so as not to enstrange players too much. As opposed to the male enemies you slaughter.
Helena initially was going to be from Brazil as she specializes in Capoeira. Capcom scrapped that later on turning her even more awkward
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Shantae is...interesting. Her belly dancer look is not, on its face, an issue for me and as someone else mentioned she's hardly exoticized compared to the rest of the cast of those games. But those games are undeniably sexualized in ways that don't make a ton of contextual sense. I'm not saying that "dressing sexy needs justification" so much as "the way characters dress should be informed by character", and in the case of Shantae the issues I have are mainly:
-There's "belly dancer" outfit and then there's "my pants are literally cut to my crotch". It makes the costume undeniably sexual, which is sort of weird because it seems completely like window dressing in game. Its a classic "eye candy" choice
-And more significantly there's the fact that pretty much every major female character (and most minor) ones have identical bodies with nearly identical costumes. Like, the entire female cast of Pirate's Curse be like:
-There's "belly dancer" outfit and then there's "my pants are literally cut to my crotch". It makes the costume undeniably sexual, which is sort of weird because it seems completely like window dressing in game. Its a classic "eye candy" choice
-And more significantly there's the fact that pretty much every major female character (and most minor) ones have identical bodies with nearly identical costumes. Like, the entire female cast of Pirate's Curse be like:
Schopenhauerian
Member
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I agree, at the end of the day teams, especially big budget AAA teams, that want to engage with other cultures should consider it a responsibility to have those cultures represented on their team, and honestly in more than just a token way.
Messofanego
Banned
Free Willy! NSFW full nudity, the uncircumcised penises wobble and can be different sizes since there is an Endowment slider.
Where does Anita stand on Shantae?
Surely she should count as a positive dark-skinned heroine, right? Or is she a stereotype too?
EDIT: To clarify I ask this because I was a bit surpised at her disdain for Elena, but then I realise that I know barely anything about world history or culture other than through media so I'm not a good judge on what could be considered a stereotype and what couldn't be.
What the fuck? That looks terrible, what game is this?
Yeah, this is great.
I'm always talking to my wife about this very subject, so it's nice to see Anita address it in her series finally. Women of color are often overlooked and dismissed in regards to feminism and inequality conversations.
EDIT: Also, some of you folks need to stop getting so defensive when a game you happen to have an affinity for is criticized for things such as sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. A game can still be awesome and a lot of fun, yet have more than a handful of offensive portrayals of women, women of color, LGBTQ people, and other minorities. Instead of activating your defensive shield because your GOTY 2015 showed up in a Feminist Frequency video, take a step back and just listen to what is being said. Enjoying a game that happens to unfortunately perpetuate stereotypes and sexism doesn't make you an awful person. It doesn't hurt to be aware of the concerns of your fellow human beings, and an acknowledgement of these issues isn't an accusation or indictment of your taste in games.
As a Black/Samoan man, I've had to grit my teeth and power through an otherwise excellent video game/movie/tv show/book/etc, etc, because the portrayal of black men was cringeworthy. I've had to put up with the marginalization and stereotyping of my people in every single area of entertainment media since the day I was old enough to watch tv and read a book. It's more of an exception to the rule when people of color, LGBTQ people, and all of the other marginalized minorities can find a piece of entertainment where they don't have to shake their head every time the "token" representation of us appears on screen/the page. Imagine that. 90 plus percent of seeing yourself represented in entertainment media makes you cringe. It fucking sucks, I can tell you that.
But hey, I love my video games and movies and tv and shit, so I just grin and bear it! I have nothing but love and respect for people like Anita, who at the very least attempt to shine a light on these issues and get a dialogue going about it. My only hope is that instead of getting knee jerk defensive, people approach the conversation with open ears. I mean, I love me some Witcher 3 too, but it's far from perfect. No game is. Things will improve, but only if we constantly
Corleth the Fey
Member
It's Shantae the Half Genie Hero. The game is a great Wonder Boy III to IV style game, with wonderful graphics, animation and music.
But there ain't no denying it - every adult female in the game is super sexualized. Apart from Grandma, who is a pink blobfish in a flowery hat.
petran79
Banned
On game screen character is supposedly very small to notice. If you saw the monkey in Metal Slug...
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Haha what? The industry is full of fanservice games
That's a shameful middle eastern stereotype that should have died decades ago.
petran79
Banned
There are games doing far more damage to this than poor Shantae
Phife Dawg
Member
Wow, I wasn't aware how awful FC3s story is. Who is responsible for this? They should hang up their jobs, for shame.
I didn't make the original comment, I just meant that she's not just simple fanservice.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I think what makes people forgive Shantae is it's playful art style. The female characters are sexualized but the art represents it in a way where it doesn't feel too demeaning and harmful. Everyone looks cute and happy and bubbly that your mind doesn't focus on the skimpy outfits.
The writer took the criticisms and did a much better job with FC4.
Dragonslayer_023
Banned
Shantae isn't middle eastern what are you talking about?
Even if she's from a fictional place, that doesn't change anything.
4 is a cutie
Banned
that, and the female characters were centered around humor and friendship so I had a easier time looking past the fanservice (as blatant as it was). Though, I wouldn't blame anyone for criticizing it lol
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
This is the image you unlock for speedrunning Half-Genie Hero:
This is arguably as blatant as it gets, other than the still images during dialogue.
It really does.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
They showed so little of the story that we didn't fully know how bad it was gonna get. After it came out I remember a lot of game sites talking about how dumb and typical it's story was. I don't think anyone defended it's story and characters other than liking Vaas.
Maybe you should play the games to understand why it's WayForward's beloved franchise.
Dragonslayer_023
Banned
Yes it doesn't change that she's not Middle Eastern. I was wondering more where are you getting that from?
chaobreaker
Member
Far Cry 3 came out just when these conversations of representation in video games started slowly bubbling up and getting the AAA industry's attention.
As much as I like to piss on Ubisoft for greenlighting the plot of FC3, at least they acknowledged their mistake and tried (emphasis on tried) to correct it with Far Cry 4.
Messofanego
Banned
Jeffrey Yohalem. He bounced back with writing Child Of Light, which was much better.
Different writers. Far Cry 4 was written by Li C. Kuo and Lucien Soulban. Jeffrey never returned to write Far Cry after 3, went on to do Child Of Light and the AssCreed games.
ThatsMytrunks
Member
It's well reasoned, not terribly accusatory, and offers up suggestions for improvement. I really enjoyed it.
She needs a better microphone, though.
She needs a better microphone, though.
Genie. Belly dancing. Architecture in the background.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Shantae is a middle-eastern inspired character.
Dragonslayer_023
Banned
Phife Dawg
Member
That's good to know, still pretty inexcusable.
I just checked and Far Cry 3 was nominated for story at BAFTA? LOL!
http://awards.bafta.org/award/2013/games
Her not being from a real middle eastern city does not change the fact that she's a middle eastern stereotype that originated over a century ago and needs to die.
Dragonslayer_023
Banned
So we're not allowed to have genies in fiction anymore? Genies, done. Ok.
Are you serious? So do people get away with racist stuff as long as they're in a made up universe?
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
She's not written as a stereotype. And belly dancers, as an art form, still exists.
Middle Eastern women have been portrayed as belly dancers with a bra and long skirt/pants, some sort of large Arabian jewel, usually in the desert, for a century. Perhaps people should let go of that stereotype?
It's not just the genie.
She makes good points.
Am I the only one though that wishes she would use this opportunity to educate people? Several times in the video she states that this doesn't fairly represent tribal women, as an example, or their rich culture, but she provides no context or evidence to support those claims, meaning as an onlooker, your supposed to believe what she says because she says so, even as she does provide context for dark skinned people who went through slavery and how that evolved into today's culture.
I don't doubt she's correct, but it always bothers me when she fails to correlate her claims with some actual backing, making the watcher have to go google search and figure it out themselves. Just wish she'd provide some backing, even if I don't doubt what she says. Would make the videos more complete.
Am I the only one though that wishes she would use this opportunity to educate people? Several times in the video she states that this doesn't fairly represent tribal women, as an example, or their rich culture, but she provides no context or evidence to support those claims, meaning as an onlooker, your supposed to believe what she says because she says so, even as she does provide context for dark skinned people who went through slavery and how that evolved into today's culture.
I don't doubt she's correct, but it always bothers me when she fails to correlate her claims with some actual backing, making the watcher have to go google search and figure it out themselves. Just wish she'd provide some backing, even if I don't doubt what she says. Would make the videos more complete.
I don't see the problem with Shantae. She borrows cultural aspects (belly dancer) but the character is not even human. Overdrawn and stylized. And overall it is fiction, such as many other games that don't reflect any historical events.
I consider myself being open-minded, but I don't share Anitas opinion.
And yes the Far Cry 3 story is just weird.
Some points that caught my attention:
- From my point of view the light-and-dark distinction in Zelda games is an artistic way to visually separate good from evil.
While Lana has the light skin tone, which implicits virtuousness, holyness, and somewhat innocence - Cia is the complete difference with her dark skin tone, which obviously implicits her evil nature. Through her sexualized design Cia appears sinful and seductive, which underlines her evil nature. I would not consider it as exotification, not even racist.
And Anita tries to map this cliché on reality. I think that's misleading.
- About the witch doctor from Diablo 3 she says: "Employing just about every visual stereotype about tribal warriors in the book: elaborate percings, skull masks and body paint and carrying voodoo dolls and shrunken heads as items of power. The witch doctor is a caricature of tribal identity, rooted in centuries-old racist imagery that has no place being perpetuated in the 21st century".
It sounds exaggerated. The witch doctor is a male/female character that with a voodoo background in a obviously highly fictional game. She does not even explain why this is a problem. I would like to know it.
"Harmful, ignorant, stereotypes have been used in the design of supporting characters and enemies in games for decades. And often the result is female characters who are both sexualized and exotified."
I'm not sure what harmful means in that context.
This previous quoted line is shown next to a scene of Witcher 3 where Gerald talks to a Succubus with a darker skin tone. Within the the context of Novigrad this is indeed exotic, but not exotification. The background and existence of the Succubus in Novigrad is comprehensible and the players interactions/choices are sensible (within the bounds of the witcher lore
)
Overall i find most of her arguments weak. The movie scenes @ 2:25 are an example for the term "exotification". Though i don't see it in games.
Feels like you can make a problem out of everything...
I consider myself being open-minded, but I don't share Anitas opinion.
And yes the Far Cry 3 story is just weird.
Some points that caught my attention:
- From my point of view the light-and-dark distinction in Zelda games is an artistic way to visually separate good from evil.
While Lana has the light skin tone, which implicits virtuousness, holyness, and somewhat innocence - Cia is the complete difference with her dark skin tone, which obviously implicits her evil nature. Through her sexualized design Cia appears sinful and seductive, which underlines her evil nature. I would not consider it as exotification, not even racist.
And Anita tries to map this cliché on reality. I think that's misleading.
- About the witch doctor from Diablo 3 she says: "Employing just about every visual stereotype about tribal warriors in the book: elaborate percings, skull masks and body paint and carrying voodoo dolls and shrunken heads as items of power. The witch doctor is a caricature of tribal identity, rooted in centuries-old racist imagery that has no place being perpetuated in the 21st century".
It sounds exaggerated. The witch doctor is a male/female character that with a voodoo background in a obviously highly fictional game. She does not even explain why this is a problem. I would like to know it.
"Harmful, ignorant, stereotypes have been used in the design of supporting characters and enemies in games for decades. And often the result is female characters who are both sexualized and exotified."
I'm not sure what harmful means in that context.
This previous quoted line is shown next to a scene of Witcher 3 where Gerald talks to a Succubus with a darker skin tone. Within the the context of Novigrad this is indeed exotic, but not exotification. The background and existence of the Succubus in Novigrad is comprehensible and the players interactions/choices are sensible (within the bounds of the witcher lore
which allows killing her as a second option
Overall i find most of her arguments weak. The movie scenes @ 2:25 are an example for the term "exotification". Though i don't see it in games.
Feels like you can make a problem out of everything...
In regards to Shantae, the cheesecake was only really over the top in Pirate's Curse. In the most recent game, Half-Genie Hero, it's a lot more cartoony and kid friendly (with the exception of the bonus swimsuit picture you get for doing well).
Hell, the actual swimsuit that was a kickstater stretch goal (not sure if they made it or not) wasn't that blatant.
There's cheesecake there, but it's not nearly as pronounced as the character portraits in PC.
Hell, the actual swimsuit that was a kickstater stretch goal (not sure if they made it or not) wasn't that blatant.
There's cheesecake there, but it's not nearly as pronounced as the character portraits in PC.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
To answer all your questions, if your game has virtually no PoC in it and the only visible PoC is in very sinister looking roles, it furthers the stereotype of PoC being "mysterious", "exotic", and "otherworldly" compared to generic white people that populate the land.
I don't know anything about FC3 (or any other FC for that matter) with the exception of this FF video, so the question may be stupid: what exactly is racist there? Unless we're calling the whole "tribal savages" trope racism. Would it make it ok/better if the exact same game was set in Arctic with Eskimo-like tribe or Lord of the Flies kind of setting with Caucasian savages?
In regards to Shantae, the cheesecake was only really over the top in Pirate's Curse. In the most recent game, Half-Genie Hero, it's a lot more cartoony and kid friendly (with the exception of the bonus swimsuit picture you get for doing well).
Hell, the actual swimsuit that was a kickstater stretch goal (not sure if they made it or not) wasn't that blatant.
There's cheesecake there, but it's not nearly as pronounced as the character portraits in PC.
Yeah, Half Genie Hero art was done mostly in house I think? while Pirate Curse portraits were done by some japanese artist.
About Shantae, I like her games and her character (she feels like a lite GR's Kat personality wise), but there's no doubt that she's a sexualized stereotype , there's no point on denying that. Luckily the game is really lighthearthed and there's not much fanservice (well, other than the castle dungeon in PC, that was BAD).
Alex_Mexico
Member
Watch the goddamned video.
I mean, of course, lol.
Shantae games are fun, glad to see the art style changing for the better. I wonder if there was any outrage because of it, though.
I did, honestly. I'm sorry, English isn't my native language, and racism, due to lack of other races around, isn't something I can spot easily. My sincere apologies, I don't want to sound offensive.