Beast Legacy
Member
Just want to say it was great talking with Keits this past weekend at NYCC. Always a class act in person as well as online. Looking forward to the future of Divekick good sir.
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Fighting Games Weekly | Oct 14-20 | El gringo ganó todo
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
toddhunter
Member
Yeah, even setting up a local mesh network would remove a lot of conflicts without much cost. I've used similar setups at exhibits before and it worked well over a huge space.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
This is the thing, Haunts is saying only stream top 8 on Sunday (somebody can correct me if I am wrong).
That means top 32 will not be streamed live. For like EVO, I think that is a bad idea. Top 32 is some of the times better than top 8. Almost like football, some people say conference or division championship weekend is better than the super bowl is.
If it is strictly like, don't stream the 7 am friday UMVC3 pool, maybe. Like, Sunday at EVO already takes the whole day, is there room for recap matches? Are we basically saying we are going to split up Finals even more and have more on Saturday night?
Like everybody else is saying, streamlining this is going to take alot of logistics.
Is the goal to have Sunday run as soon as possible? I think the first step is getting everything running on time from the get go. Of course players showing up late hampers this.
I think having 2 stream stations helps, so there is less button check time being wasted.
As for having no pools being streamed on saturday, who is going to be quick enough to look through all the footage and get t ready for sunday morning?
idk, I just think there is worth in streaming the brackets that lead up to top 8. I know you are comparing to poker and all of that. But I am comparing to sports from my pov, and it's like saying for the NCAA tournament, don't show the 1/16 game. Well, maybe somebody wants to watch. Maybe some crazy shit will happen. Maybe it will give somebody not in the spotlight time to shine.
Maybe if there are more machines available to stations, so we can work through matches faster, more room to pick out the matches before hand, so the name players get on stream. I guess it all boils down to logistics.
I think the problem with running a local version of Challonge is that you need the equipment to interface with it... although that's probably a lot less of an issue now than it was 2-3 years ago, with smartphones being so ubiquitous. However, I would still have some security concerns (how are you going to manage access rights) which probably aren't that big of a deal at a small major (since they could be resolved... personally) but who knows if anyone would attempt it.
At one point I was working on an iOS application that you could run a bracket off of, which could then push the updates to Challonge through their API, and it would also save the results locally in case the Internet connection crapped out. Probably could then have added something where you could push out JSON objects to a script on a remote web server and then have the results managed over a local httpd. However, it never really got off the ground for :reasons:.
At one point I was working on an iOS application that you could run a bracket off of, which could then push the updates to Challonge through their API, and it would also save the results locally in case the Internet connection crapped out. Probably could then have added something where you could push out JSON objects to a script on a remote web server and then have the results managed over a local httpd. However, it never really got off the ground for :reasons:.
EarlyEarly
Member
Strider bout to dig Capcom out of the hole...
Just my luck: The FGC finally starts discussing brackets and tournament formats and I'm only able to type with one hand thanks to a dislocated shoulder. Sad life.
I'll be brief. Paper brackets are used because they work consistently. Anything that goes wrong can only be due to the person holding it, and that's fixable. When you start to use technology, you increase the likelihood that something goes very very wrong and cannot be easily fixed.
Example: I used to run brackets at community events on my iPad, using a note taking app with a bracket PDF uploaded and a stylus. I was running the MK event at Chicago Heart 3 two years ago. Had 35 entrants. I was into the 2nd round of matches when the app crashed. Nothing was saved. I had to step aside for 10 minutes while I struggled to recreate the bracket from memory. Luckily I was able to do so.
The guy running Marvel wasn't so lucky. He was using tournament maker and he accidentally hit randomize while the first round matches we're being played, rescrambling the bracket. He asked if people were willing to restart the event anew, but there were protests do he had to try to reconstruct the original bracket from memory. It put the event very far behind and likely forced some people to play extra matches.
Anyway, that's why we use paper for big events. I've thought a lot about providing people with pool results after a pool has finished, but that's pretty much a full time job for someone and it's hard to get somebody to do that when you're working entirely with volunteers. At UFGT this year, I gave commentators copies of the brackets for all the pools that were to be streamed. That way they could tell where in the bracket each stream match was. Hopefully I'll be able to add consistent pool results next year, but again, I would need to find somebody to volunteer to do that job and only that job for 2 days, and I don't my significant other loves me enough.
Edit: Forgot something. It's too complicated to go into right now but Challonge brackets suck. Very user-friendly site. Horribly structured brackets.
I'll be brief. Paper brackets are used because they work consistently. Anything that goes wrong can only be due to the person holding it, and that's fixable. When you start to use technology, you increase the likelihood that something goes very very wrong and cannot be easily fixed.
Example: I used to run brackets at community events on my iPad, using a note taking app with a bracket PDF uploaded and a stylus. I was running the MK event at Chicago Heart 3 two years ago. Had 35 entrants. I was into the 2nd round of matches when the app crashed. Nothing was saved. I had to step aside for 10 minutes while I struggled to recreate the bracket from memory. Luckily I was able to do so.
The guy running Marvel wasn't so lucky. He was using tournament maker and he accidentally hit randomize while the first round matches we're being played, rescrambling the bracket. He asked if people were willing to restart the event anew, but there were protests do he had to try to reconstruct the original bracket from memory. It put the event very far behind and likely forced some people to play extra matches.
Anyway, that's why we use paper for big events. I've thought a lot about providing people with pool results after a pool has finished, but that's pretty much a full time job for someone and it's hard to get somebody to do that when you're working entirely with volunteers. At UFGT this year, I gave commentators copies of the brackets for all the pools that were to be streamed. That way they could tell where in the bracket each stream match was. Hopefully I'll be able to add consistent pool results next year, but again, I would need to find somebody to volunteer to do that job and only that job for 2 days, and I don't my significant other loves me enough.
Edit: Forgot something. It's too complicated to go into right now but Challonge brackets suck. Very user-friendly site. Horribly structured brackets.
Shouta
Member
Paper brackets work fine, IMO.
But it requires the bracket runners to report in when possible or have someone run around and check in as someone has mentioned. It's a lot more consistent unless you have a custom system to work with a server and user client that isn't shitty like challonge.
But it requires the bracket runners to report in when possible or have someone run around and check in as someone has mentioned. It's a lot more consistent unless you have a custom system to work with a server and user client that isn't shitty like challonge.
toddhunter
Member
You need redundancy and backups built in to the system, but that can all be done.
I'd just be feeding it all back to a server. From experience the first thing that will happen is a dropped and smashed ipad or tablet.
Are those avermedia capture things networkable with the ability to pull videos?
The context where it changes is in the huge events like EVO or VxG. We can't necessarily bring in the money, but we should at least be able to show brackets and have some idea about where things are up to as a viewer. UD tweeting out photos of a bit of paper is something that can be fixed by the community.
I'd just be feeding it all back to a server. From experience the first thing that will happen is a dropped and smashed ipad or tablet.
Are those avermedia capture things networkable with the ability to pull videos?
The context where it changes is in the huge events like EVO or VxG. We can't necessarily bring in the money, but we should at least be able to show brackets and have some idea about where things are up to as a viewer. UD tweeting out photos of a bit of paper is something that can be fixed by the community.
EarlyEarly
Member
Sorry, I forgot to add the Kappa at the end.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
whens marvel
sixteen-bit
Member
That game looks so bad.
Shouta
Member
VxG was huge? =P
Anyway, paper brackets are fine on site. Having someone update online brackets asap instead of having the devices to do it is better IMO. But, I definitely prefer separating tasks a bit more when possible to ease the burden on folks which is why I think it's a better idea.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Pokemon is turn based marvel. So for me it's right now.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I don't think it looks that bad to be honest although I can't say for sure without actually playing it. And I will be getting it day 1.
Also is GFWL linked to Xbox Live? Like if I am playing AE on PC am I also playing people on Xbox Live? Because I have been getting a lot of Xbox Live style rage messages online even though I am not even good at the game.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Team based game play, lots of crazy over powered stuff, lots of tech and combinations to use.
Also you can make it so that the other person doesn't get to play.
The card form of Marvel is Yu-Gi-Oh.
Fuck Nintendo for making 2 almost identical games, but still you have to play both
toddhunter
Member
It would make sense but no.
Karsticles
Member
If only all of the Pokemon were useful. I would totally play it then...
I guess tossing out "just stream top 8" was a bad idea, cuz that wasn't what I was trying to convey. The bigger idea here is you have this team of guys at a tournament -- whether it be Spooky, IPW or Level Up or whoever -- and they are streaming pool matches Friday through Saturday and I know from experience there is no way in hell you can get up to do anything else.
So is this really the best approach to streaming a major and is it the best use of their time and energy? Is it really wise to have David and James sit there all weekend and commentate matches in the hopes of a few exciting moments and they end up dead tired by the end of it?
You guys (and those I was chatting with on Twitter) are absolutely right about top 32 being the best part of the tournament. I just wanted to open a discussion and see if there are some creative ways we can build upon that strength of FGC majors.
Distill the hype matches and blow ups, present them in a way that those of us who cant sit at a computer all weekend still get a great viewing experience and get a better understanding of what the players had to go through to get where they are.
...but that's the fun part! Figuring all that out.
So is this really the best approach to streaming a major and is it the best use of their time and energy? Is it really wise to have David and James sit there all weekend and commentate matches in the hopes of a few exciting moments and they end up dead tired by the end of it?
You guys (and those I was chatting with on Twitter) are absolutely right about top 32 being the best part of the tournament. I just wanted to open a discussion and see if there are some creative ways we can build upon that strength of FGC majors.
Distill the hype matches and blow ups, present them in a way that those of us who cant sit at a computer all weekend still get a great viewing experience and get a better understanding of what the players had to go through to get where they are.
...but that's the fun part! Figuring all that out.
MiniBossBattle
Member
I am too old for that. Magic card game is of my generation and the Pokemon phenomena hit when I was in college so I have no attachment to the Cartoons/games.
edit; my favorite matches on streams in order are the Sunday matches (or top 32), Rival Matches (FT whatever), team tournaments, and random stream matchups. If you were to stream saturday stuff I would want to watch pool finals or semis, exhibition/older game streams, drinking streams, whatever.
toddhunter
Member
It is hard to know how everybody else does it, but I actually rarely watch matches if it isn't live. It just never feels the same as getting the reactions of other people on gaf or the chat or whatever.
That said, what is a shame is that a great tourney ends and if you missed it you are just searching through archives.
This is where I was going with technology. A paper bracket gets the tourney done nicely, but it doesn't do the work of gathering matches, automatically assigning footage, tagging players and characters, hype moments etc.
It also doesn't help integrate this kind of stuff into SF5 so people can play and watch or track players and help produce a higlights video for the next day.
Without it I think it would just be way too much work to produce in a timely manner.
I guess tossing out "just stream top 8" was a bad idea, cuz that wasn't what I was trying to convey. The bigger idea here is you have this team of guys at a tournament -- whether it be Spooky, IPW or Level Up or whoever -- and they are streaming pool matches Friday through Saturday and I know from experience there is no way in hell you can get up to do anything else.
So is this really the best approach to streaming a major and is it the best use of their time and energy? Is it really wise to have David and James sit there all weekend and commentate matches in the hopes of a few exciting moments and they end up dead tired by the end of it?
You guys (and those I was chatting with on Twitter) are absolutely right about top 32 being the best part of the tournament. I just wanted to open a discussion and see if there are some creative ways we can build upon that strength of FGC majors.
Distill the hype matches and blow ups, present them in a way that those of us who cant sit at a computer all weekend still get a great viewing experience and get a better understanding of what the players had to go through to get where they are.
...but that's the fun part! Figuring all that out.
I'm totally down with what you're saying. The current experience is decent, but it doesn't seem that sustainable or effective in terms of gaining viewers (not that this should be the only goal of a stream, but it is a measurable figure). Two (or more ) days of streams is a lot, frankly. I enjoy watching when I can, but I'm also an extreme enthusiast. Exploring the possibility of a tighter, more distilled production would definitely be worthwhile.
MiniBossBattle
Member
FGC needs a SportsCenter. Its the only way I find Baseball tolerable. Maybe that's what I need to enjoy Injustice.
Stabby McSter
Member
Frame Trap kinda did something like that. Then it died.
That's kind of what came to mind when I read Haunts' post. Have a meaty SportsCenter-like segment (however long it needs to be) that leads into Top 8/16.
Friday/Saturday streams could be dedicated to pool finals and exhibitions. There's a lot of potential in changing the current structure around.
I'd be more inclined to pay attention to a game I don't care for, like Injustice, if I'm watching a top-notch exhibition as opposed to pool play. I'd probably also sit through a recap segment that brings me straight to the hype (especially if it's being broken down and explained at the same time).
Parallax Scroll
Banned
esportscenter
Those LiangHuBBB videos are almost like a top plays of the week type of thing. I actually really enjoy that format, and don't have time to watch streams. I usually tune in, see Injustice or Smash pools or something I'm just not going to watch, switch off and then watch the GF on spooky or whoever's youtube channel much later.
Featuring the most magical moments that happened in cyberspace
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Who is going to curate these videos for this esports channel/center?
espn/fox sports has people going through video constantly. Who is going to volunteer to do that? It's already a time commitment to get the top 8 on youtube, chopped up correctly (each individual match separated, then compiled into a playlist), right?
I would love it, I meant, my favorite segment on is the not top 10. I guess that used to be held down by prpavy, lol. But who shall do it.
Toddhunter is right, we need some crazy program to do this.
I've thought about this alot as well over the years. I shall have a theory flow chart next week, heh.
espn/fox sports has people going through video constantly. Who is going to volunteer to do that? It's already a time commitment to get the top 8 on youtube, chopped up correctly (each individual match separated, then compiled into a playlist), right?
I would love it, I meant, my favorite segment on is the not top 10. I guess that used to be held down by prpavy, lol. But who shall do it.
Toddhunter is right, we need some crazy program to do this.
I've thought about this alot as well over the years. I shall have a theory flow chart next week, heh.
I am still very upset that I cannot nickname the Torchic I got from Mystery Gifts "X-Factor".
Professor Beef
Banned
Eviolite mitigates this slightly, but I also agree with you. Poor Farfetch'd.
:lol
You'd probably only need like a couple of other people doing what LiangHuBBB already does, and thousands of people could be suggesting clips. There's issues with people compiling clips that other people put in the effort to record and may not want to give permission, but if you had say a combined effort from 3 streamers, a couple of video editors, and absolutely anyone who's able to sort thru and suggest clips, it might not be too difficult.
I kind of wonder why there aren't more "big play" compilation videos for fighting games. I know they're popular with games like DotA2, LoL, CoD, and so on, but they've seemed more like a CPM device than something that would make good filler during a broadcast. Content production is something fighting game players are in generally pretty bad at, but that's an entirely different problem! It would be great to be able to roll that out for the event... but I don't think a fighting game tournament has the resources or manpower to pull that off.
I think one way to resolve that problem would be to crowdsource it. You could have a phone app or web app that people could ping whenever something nuts in a match happened, and they could leave a short description, which would also be timestamped. You could then pull up the most up popular moments in the archive... assuming it was streamed or recorded. This sounds like it would be better for the stream itself, and you could probably gamify if (ranking people on the number of "popular" submissions, tying giveaways to it, and so on)... but that would all require infrastructure, which means development time and manpower.
Now I'm wondering what the value of early pool play is for people watching on stream. To me, there's nothing more brutal to watch than early bracket UMvC3, which tends to be a total slopfest. It's cool for the players involved, but I don't know how many people want to watch that. I really don't like the idea of "e-sportsifying" the broadcast (watching the LoL world finals was pretty painful, since it seemed like they spent more time on random crap then the games themselves), but I have a feeling that's kind of inevitable especially as the viewership base broadens (as I have the same problem with major sport broadcasts, as well).
I think one way to resolve that problem would be to crowdsource it. You could have a phone app or web app that people could ping whenever something nuts in a match happened, and they could leave a short description, which would also be timestamped. You could then pull up the most up popular moments in the archive... assuming it was streamed or recorded. This sounds like it would be better for the stream itself, and you could probably gamify if (ranking people on the number of "popular" submissions, tying giveaways to it, and so on)... but that would all require infrastructure, which means development time and manpower.
Now I'm wondering what the value of early pool play is for people watching on stream. To me, there's nothing more brutal to watch than early bracket UMvC3, which tends to be a total slopfest. It's cool for the players involved, but I don't know how many people want to watch that. I really don't like the idea of "e-sportsifying" the broadcast (watching the LoL world finals was pretty painful, since it seemed like they spent more time on random crap then the games themselves), but I have a feeling that's kind of inevitable especially as the viewership base broadens (as I have the same problem with major sport broadcasts, as well).
Could the event be uploaded on to youtube after it has happened? Release a 3 hour video highlighting all the great matches from pools. Finals can be uploaded in its entirety. Maybe release the video one week after the event.
I really dislike the way spooky is currently releasing videos on youtube. There's no set time frame to when we can expect videos and when they are released, its at 20 or 30 videos at a time. A lot of matches are simply ignored. In the off chance he releases them in parts, there's no timestamp in the description telling viewers when someone played.
Personally, I prefer having events distributed into parts versus individual videos for each match. Having separate videos for each match can also spoil the outcome for uninformed viewers. The last video uploaded from an event is generally grand finals and often times, viewers can see who's in them. I personally won't be watching the other videos because I already know the outcome based on the title of grand finals (or whatever round the tournament is in).
This sort of task is definitely suited to someone else entirely...not the streamer. You need a dedicated person or team for this.
Shouta
Member
Some of these can be done easily with the LGPs actually, at least for pool matches. Starting and stopping the LGP creates an individual file for a match and if done correctly, video editors don't need to actually do the chopping themselves. They just need to apply the proper overlays in post-production (if they want), convert (or not) then upload. The same can be done during a tournament in fact but the files need to be done cleanly at the source.
Well, there is some clean up necessary mostly to trim the start and end a tad but the LGP actually really lends well to capturing these matches when done right.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
How many pokemon are there now?
Also link to base stats for new dudes pls
Also link to base stats for new dudes pls
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Maybe for the early pool play, don't have commentators. Just let the stream station run, maybe have somebody watch it and just change the names (somebody trust worthy).
I have always been a proponent of having a clock on the screen or something, to use as a reference point when looking through archives. So like something happens at 2pm on Saturday, it is easier to find on there.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
and more to see.
There should be more details on the screen in general. Once in a while you'll see a little box stating "winner's final" or something. I know relaying between TOs and the streamer can be difficult, though.
Professor Beef
Banned
That dream requires money and manpower, something the FGC is limited in. Levelup had the right idea with having multiple people working streaming equipment.
As great as Sp00ky and Haunts are, that level of presentation is impossible to achieve with one person. And these current mass market streaming equipment for streaming sites is fisher price compared to what corporations and and actual broadcasting companies have.
As great as Sp00ky and Haunts are, that level of presentation is impossible to achieve with one person. And these current mass market streaming equipment for streaming sites is fisher price compared to what corporations and and actual broadcasting companies have.
Karsticles
Member
A thought I had: if folks are just watching recordings, they might not be as interested. Part of hype is getting caught up in the moment of what is happening. I know that I don't get nearly as hype watching a recording as I do watching something live.I guess tossing out "just stream top 8" was a bad idea, cuz that wasn't what I was trying to convey. The bigger idea here is you have this team of guys at a tournament -- whether it be Spooky, IPW or Level Up or whoever -- and they are streaming pool matches Friday through Saturday and I know from experience there is no way in hell you can get up to do anything else.
So is this really the best approach to streaming a major and is it the best use of their time and energy? Is it really wise to have David and James sit there all weekend and commentate matches in the hopes of a few exciting moments and they end up dead tired by the end of it?
You guys (and those I was chatting with on Twitter) are absolutely right about top 32 being the best part of the tournament. I just wanted to open a discussion and see if there are some creative ways we can build upon that strength of FGC majors.
Distill the hype matches and blow ups, present them in a way that those of us who cant sit at a computer all weekend still get a great viewing experience and get a better understanding of what the players had to go through to get where they are.
...but that's the fun part! Figuring all that out.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Yea, more info the better. I think Jaxel's overlay is pretty damn good. I wish it had a clock though, hehe.
I hate it when there is no match count on the screen. Yuck.