Final Fantasy XIV |OT2| ARR: Phase 4 August.

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To be honest I'm starting to dislike a lot of the decisions they're making, half of them seem willy-nilly.
Yeah... there is a lot to take issue with "Yoshi-P's vision".

Limit Breaks are pretty lame, but if they were pushed into the background, where they belong, by another set of mechanics be it skillchains or battle regimen or whatever, that would be fine.
 
Yeah... there is a lot to take issue with "Yoshi-P's vision".

Limit Breaks are pretty lame, but if they were pushed into the background, where they belong, by another set of mechanics be it skillchains or battle regimen or whatever, that would be fine.
Vision is great, but being in a position where you can step back away from pride and admit your idea was shit and it needs changing is a process Yoshida should consider again. I'm not saying these problems are game-breaking but they certainly aren't doing much credit for the rest of the game which is pretty damn nice. It's a bad taste in the mouth kind of thing.

I can't help but feel they're stepping far away from accepting feedback now they're closer to launch. I'm hoping more people make noise about it so it gets a revision. (and Lightning removed from the game, too)
 
Are people making a stink about Lightning appearing in the game on the official forums? Yoshi-P could remove this if there's enough of an outcry.

I can't help but think that this was something that was forced on him, though.
 
My problem with Yoshi-P is that I find some of the stuff he says to be contradictory. Like, he says he doesn't want the game to be action based, yet the combat systems is putting even more emphasis on movement to dodge AoEs rather than making people dependent on abilities and cooldowns (this pretty much means no NA x JP interaction). He says partying up is very important, but designs duty finder to be as socially sterile (and, arguably, sterilizing) as possible. I don't get it.

That being said, I expect the combat system will see large readjustments over year after its release. Too many people are unhappy with the first 30 or so levels (this noise will only get louder after the new game smell wears off, that and a subscription fee) and there is questionable design with stats like Skill Speed being rather useless, yet highly prominent (with so few stats to give your attention to, one of them being useless is a big deal).

EDIT: I don't think removing Lightning is even a possibility. This isn't a joke between devs like some people believe. This is straight up cross-promotion between FFXIV and LR:FF, likely put into place by people in charge of both teams. You can even see their official promotional logo in some of the images. The only thing I want from them is to redesign the lightning and snow equipment so it is more "Eorzean". And that H2H... I don't know what the fuck they would have to do with that. Shrinking it to 25% of its current size may help.
 
Honestly the avoiding AoE thing came about because people complained that monsters used their abilities too quickly and players didn't have a chance to react to them. Goblin bomb tosses, for example, used to be instant as opposed to having a charge time like they did in FF XI.

Most of the aoe abilities are the same ones that those monsters used already, they just added a charging time and made them more powerful to encourage players to avoid them.

At least from where I'm sitting, it makes basic fights with monsters more dangerous and interesting than they were before phase 3. Everything used to die in 3-4 hits and posed no threat at all outside of dungeons.
 
So to make the official announcement regarding NeoGAF/Gathered Against Fate on Sargatanas. The free company will welcome any new players with open arms as we are a community as a whole.

However, we will continue to have the free company under the moniker of Red Dot as that's who we are and it's of importance for those that survived 1.x. However, for those wishing something GAF related in terms of naming, we will have a Gathered Against Fate linkshell.

I encourage those that will be joining Sargatanas to stop by our FC website. http://reddot.guildwork.com to register and engage with the others. We have a mumble too!

I make this statement on behalf of the Red Dot leadership that resides on NeoGAF. Which is me, Ravidrath and Omlet.
 
Honestly the avoiding AoE thing came about because people complained that monsters used their abilities too quickly and players didn't have a chance to react to them. Goblin bomb tosses, for example, used to be instant as opposed to having a charge time like they did in FF XI.

Most of the aoe abilities are the same ones that those monsters used already, they just added a charging time and made them more powerful to encourage players to avoid them.

At least from where I'm sitting, it makes basic fights with monsters more dangerous and interesting than they were before phase 3. Everything used to die in 3-4 hits and posed no threat at all outside of dungeons.
Heh, I have no problem with the AoE's as such, just the way they calculate the damage after the animation causes a lag effect (which doesn't match the cast bar), if they can fix that I will have no problem with it.

I think this is going to be a big problem for anyone who is used to playing modern MMO's, if they are going to make the game more action orientated they need to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen otherwise people are going to get frustrated and quit. (It's Ifrit 1.0 all over again)
 
It turns out that there is a renowned resort on the shores of Eastern La Noscea. This famous getaway, the legendary Costa del Sol, has one of the most noteworthy bars in Eorzea. Naturally, we had to see it for ourselves.

Little did we know, just south of this resort lurks a Giant Enemy Crab whose size and ferocity dwarfs all other crabs, even ones from Japanese history. Yes, the beach to the south of Costa del Sol is the home of the notorious Cancer, the greatest Giant Enemy Crab gaming has ever known!

He also gives about 17-18k XP per kill. A number of us ended up on that beach and around Costa del Sol for hours chasing FATEs and this crab. I can imagine large groups of people after launch forming up to kill this guy when they are leveling up sub jobs.
 
The original song was awesome. Loved how it switched back and forth between normal and battle version, ala PSO.
I guess its not in ARR, right?

That makes me think, is the music in dungeons dynamic too in ARR?
Yea its not dynamic in ARR as far as I can tell, but that could just be something they haven't implemented yet.
 
Vision is great, but being in a position where you can step back away from pride and admit your idea was shit and it needs changing is a process Yoshida should consider again. I'm not saying these problems are game-breaking but they certainly aren't doing much credit for the rest of the game which is pretty damn nice. It's a bad taste in the mouth kind of thing.

I can't help but feel they're stepping far away from accepting feedback now they're closer to launch. I'm hoping more people make noise about it so it gets a revision. (and Lightning removed from the game, too)
Yeah people have been complaining about the battle system since Phase 1, and Phase 3 was actually supposed to be the revamp. All we got was a gimmicky Limit Break system that doesn't really add any depth.

I get the same sense that it's a matter of pride for Yoshi and the dev team. Admittedly, they did nail a lot of other parts of the game right, and there's several players who can stomach the flaws in the battle system for now. But down the road, the noise over the bland combat should really be getting louder. And hopefully loud enough to not be ignored.
 
Heh, I have no problem with the AoE's as such, just the way they calculate the damage after the animation causes a lag effect (which doesn't match the cast bar), if they can fix that I will have no problem with it.

I think this is going to be a big problem for anyone who is used to playing modern MMO's, if they are going to make the game more action orientated they need to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen otherwise people are going to get frustrated and quit. (It's Ifrit 1.0 all over again)
yeah, I think the animation should finish at the same time the cast bar completes. If they did that, it wouldn't be a problem, I think.

Having the animation play after the cast bar and the damage not calculated until the animation is complete gives people the impression that it lagged and they got hit when they were visually clear from the area.

It would also work if they were to calculate damage/healing when the cast bar was complete. Still not sure why they seem to be married to the idea of the effect not being applied until the animation is finished.
 
I have come to the conclusion that there is a distinct lack of Roegedyn ladies around. This concerns me because they are awesome. I only saw one other on Excalibur this entire weekend. It's all lalas and cats... down with lalas and cats!

My biggest gripe as a PLD is the removal of self-healing. That's a very signature part of that classes kit in ANY game. It's removal here makes them feel kinda... not PLD at all really.

Other than though, hot damn I love this game.
 
I really want to play some FFXIV right about now. :/ The indefinite amount of time before Phase 4, release and permanent characters is killer.

I hope there's some kind of note or bio system in place before launch so gaffers can put down their board names, I've met some really fun people over the last 2 weekends but I've no idea who any of them are. I've been Alastor Goldhawk, Lalafel taunter.
 
Yeah people have been complaining about the battle system since Phase 1, and Phase 3 was actually supposed to be the revamp. All we got was a gimmicky Limit Break system that doesn't really add any depth.

I get the same sense that it's a matter of pride for Yoshi and the dev team. Admittedly, they did nail a lot of other parts of the game right, and there's several players who can stomach the flaws in the battle system for now. But down the road, the noise over the bland combat should really be getting louder. And hopefully loud enough to not be ignored.
Couldn't agree more with this.
 
Yeah people have been complaining about the battle system since Phase 1, and Phase 3 was actually supposed to be the revamp. All we got was a gimmicky Limit Break system that doesn't really add any depth.

I get the same sense that it's a matter of pride for Yoshi and the dev team. Admittedly, they did nail a lot of other parts of the game right, and there's several players who can stomach the flaws in the battle system for now. But down the road, the noise over the bland combat should really be getting louder. And hopefully loud enough to not be ignored.
"We want 1.2x battle system back" aren't complains just stupid kneejerking.

Limit Breaks function the same manner as they do in every other FF game, powerful one time attacks. Is not perfect and needs to be better, but once again people were expecting skillchains or battle regime or something along the lines just because they want those things back.
 
Its getting alot less bland when having to focus on different variables in dungeon boss battles. Same with having access to more moves...dont feel like i'm cycling through actions with no real reasoning behind it.
 
It's impossible to judge the combat system without playing end content. So for now the complaints are pretty weak imo.
I agree. I mean, if WoW's (Or any MMO, really)battle system was being judged on JUST level 1-30 content I'm pretty sure people could call it boring as well.
 
It's impossible to judge the combat system without playing end content. So for now the complaints are pretty weak imo.
I agree, I do have some concerns, true, but let's face it: Most of the good that people remember from 1.2x battle system comes from the end content bosses design, more than anything.

Darnus is one of my favorite bosses on a RPG, and I'm sure is not because of the battle system of 1.23.
 
Yeah people have been complaining about the battle system since Phase 1, and Phase 3 was actually supposed to be the revamp. All we got was a gimmicky Limit Break system that doesn't really add any depth.

I get the same sense that it's a matter of pride for Yoshi and the dev team. Admittedly, they did nail a lot of other parts of the game right, and there's several players who can stomach the flaws in the battle system for now. But down the road, the noise over the bland combat should really be getting louder. And hopefully loud enough to not be ignored.
If they're not going to fix anything now, they're not going to fix it after launch.

I didn't play 1.2 or Phase 1 or anything prior to Phase 3 except 1.0, so I can't say how good the olden days were or whatever. I can only say that I find the combat system pretty dull and uninteresting, and the Limit Breaks are some of the worst fanservice crap I've ever seen.

If someone knows of a post on the beta forums that needs bumping and liking, please let me know.
 
If they're not going to fix anything now, they're not going to fix it after launch.

I didn't play 1.2 or Phase 1 or anything prior to Phase 3 except 1.0, so I can't say how good the olden days were or whatever. I can only say that I find the combat system pretty dull and uninteresting, and the Limit Breaks are some of the worst fanservice crap I've ever seen.

If someone knows of a post on the beta forums that needs bumping and liking, please let me know.
I agree they can't afford to delay the release to fix anything now but you saying they won't after launch is pretty cocky, no one knows what will happen. If enough people make noise and boycott something there'll always be a change. I'm not happy with some of the content but I still think if Yoshida and his team are capable of putting pride to the sideline they can do plenty of good.

The problem with the beta forums is that it's filled with degenerates that complain about grass, creat numerous "I got into the beta!!" threads and did else but bicker and threaten to e-thug one another over the past 6 months of testing. If I have anything to say I put it over on the Japanese side where at least I'm not going to get de-nutted by a bunch of angry e-thugs.
 
I agree they can't afford to delay the release to fix anything now but you saying they won't after launch is pretty cocky, no one knows what will happen. If enough people make noise and boycott something there'll always be a change. I'm not happy with some of the content but I still think if Yoshida and his team are capable of putting pride to the sideline they can do plenty of good.

The problem with the beta forums is that it's filled with degenerates that complain about grass, creat numerous "I got into the beta!!" threads and did else but bicker and threaten to e-thug one another over the past 6 months of testing. If I have anything to say I put it over on the Japanese side where at least I'm not going to get de-nutted by a bunch of angry e-thugs.
I apologize if I sound cocky saying they won't fix it after launch, but I think Yoshida making a major change after launch would be too visible and require way more humility than I think S-E will afford at this point.

The beta forums are a mess, I agree, but I'd be really disappointed if the devs only paid attention to the Japanese side just because the English side is full of illiterates. The forums were a mess even during 1.0, but I suppose we can only blame the saber-toothed tigers for going extinct instead of continuing to weed out the stupidest humans.

And, I know I'd be lynched for saying this on the beta forums, but I don't think I'll re-sub after the first 30 days. It's just... too dull.
 
I find FFXIV: ARR's battle system to be a generic "me too" design too heavily inspired by post-WoW MMO combat but worse than the alternatives on the market.

The battle system is the core of a MMORPG. This one is bland. I can only hope it improves at higher levels... but in my opinion more abilities doesn't fix anything (and makes the already terrible controller "cross hotbar" even more terrible). Making me press buttons more often doesn't fix anything either. But I guess I don't know how it would be fixed. I'm not a game designer. What's here just feels boring.

The battle system is super important here because with multiple classes to level you're going to run out of quests and you'll just be focused on the combat portion of the game.

But I'm enjoying the beta and I have the CE pre-ordered. I just don't know if I'll stick around very long with the way things appear to be right now. 1.23 wasn't the best but I prefer that system over the current one.

I'm loving everything else about the game. Not sure about the story. I hear it's bad but I've been skipping everything and not reading because I want to save that for release.
 
That would have to the first time I've seen something negative said about the new cross hot bar lol. I think it's fantastic. Anyone who has used a controller in XI and old XIV surely can appreciate how good it is.
 
I used a controller in XI and original XIV.

The cross hotbar is nice when you don't have very many abilities. But I hate it once you have to scroll through multiple sets, especially if you have one with minions and stuff on it.
 
The story isnt bad, its just closer to classic final fantasy, and being an online ff, will take awhile to build / introduce you to characters. Gameplay aside, xi and 1.0 took awhile to get the ball rolling...but they do, its very involving.

As for the X bar, i found its better to take a slower, more rhythmic pace if that makes any sense. Also arrange skills wiyh a sense of purpose, removing unecessary stuff like return and teleport.
 
"We want 1.2x battle system back" aren't complains just stupid kneejerking.

Limit Breaks function the same manner as they do in every other FF game, powerful one time attacks. Is not perfect and needs to be better, but once again people were expecting skillchains or battle regime or something along the lines just because they want those things back.
I'm sorry, but I think there is a legitimate gripe with having 1.23 combat system (or more realistically, a combat 1.23-derived system, an improved one ideally) abandoned in favor with what we have now. I've come to agree with it only after playing and reading more about ARR. Just a few things on my mind: (which individually may not be a bad thing, but together make for a system that is lackluster and looks to be lackluster even at level 50).

Stats have been greatly homogenized, with skill speed and spell speed being useless on top of that. The only hope for gear to be somewhat interesting is a lot of creative action enhancements added to most of the high level gear, kind of a pipe-dream. I'm curious if people will just use the same materia for every slot. (This is entirely speculation, but I heard that all enemies may have the same evasion based on their level - throwing away a huge part of gear specialization, at least in 1.23.)

TP has basically been turned into MP, which is a downgrade if consider modern design, especially when even Thamaturge was designed to overcome that. There is just very little TP management in the game. It is more like stamina than something you build and manage. It is rather reminiscent of FFXI's... MP. Combos were an aspect of TP management, where you would get a lot more out of your TP if you were good at setting them up, creating immediate differences between players. That difference in management has been removed (along with most of the mobility, at least for Dragoons) and you are now left waiting for the game give you TP (or pushing Invigorate once you drop below x amount of TP, then wait however minutes to do it again). Cooldown timers also don't work as resource management quite like it did in 1.23. Consider that as a Dragoon that influenced my "rotation" naturally and made me look to ways to reduce the timer. I'm not going to touch the GCD, but it is weird Yoshi-P thinks that we need 7~ additional seconds to "decide" whether or not we should use the second or third part of a combo when those are only choices and we'll be using the same combo for most of the game. Moreover, he says that new players are so confused that they need this waiting time when they only have one or two obvious attacks or debuffs and maybe a combo ender for the first 10 levels.

Attacks are somewhat generic, few big moments can be drawn from them. Aside from a few actions (which often enough rely on a huge recast timer or the basis of the whole class), most actions are either a weapon skill with 100-150 potency with or without a DoT that you'll be spamming constantly (this includes spells for the most part, which have a harder time differentiating from WS than ever before), an combo move (which is sometimes complete garbage by itself, yet takes up a slot, a precious commodity if you are a controller player) that usually adds some more potency, a critical, or a DoT (gone is the TP management aspect, as I said above), or a buff with a small effect and a long recast (admittedly a common FF MMO attribute). It is all very samey, when you are chasing small differences with combos. Consider how there isn't even a single true multi-hit WS in this game.

Combine the two above, along with the weapon skills looking worse aftering being adjusted to match the added mobility in the game (made more necessary by action-based design, even though Yoshi-P says he is against that), and they just lack the satisfaction people have come to like about them in FFXI or 1.23 (even though the latter made them way more frequent). What happened to Chaos Thrust... is a tragedy... If "I dislike the combat system, but atmosphere is great" is a common feeling for players, then it is a shame they weakened the emotional reaction (i.e. mood, a.k.a. atmosphere) from combat. I think a lot of people put up with a lot of slow, tiresome aspects of FFXI's combat because it felt good to do stuff in it.

(If you ask me, I would be totally fine with old fashion immobile weapon skills, if 1) AoEs were less commonly a thing you are meant to dodge constantly, 2) if range didn't matter after the first second (i.e. never wasting TP, but kiting still creating issues), 3) actions like featherfoot, elusive jump, etc. canceling animations - perhaps forcing you to time it right so you don't lose your damage. Although one thing I should say is that I'm not proposing they bring back the 1.23 whole scale - that's very unrealistic. I'm only explaining why someone could feel ARR downgraded what we had in ARR.)

Aside from TP/actions, enmity is weird in this game. Granted, it wasn't so hot in 1.23, but the problem here is that it is hard to get excited about holding hate when enmity is given so freely. This may be a Paladin problem in particular, but this is working towards a lot of enmity being redundant (especially with Shield Oath). With such strong enmity for tanks, abilities like Quelling Strikes and Elusive Jump (along with good old fashion discretion) lose their purpose.

Some jobs landed the jump to ARR poorly.

What immediately comes to mind is Gladiator/Paladin, which popular thought says is by far the most boring class and the worst designed. With only one real main combo (thanks to Riot Blade/MP being rather useless), most of its actions being passive damage reduction that is redundant, and little to no synergy between actions, one could question why anyone would want to play one over a Warrior (aside from aesthetics, of course), unless SE is crazy enough to make encounters that require a serious turtle-tank. The design itself is just dull and messy. I saw a pretty damaging comparison between Paladin's (mitigation) actions in 1.23 versus ARR, I was going to recreate it, but it is seemingly very difficult to find a good wiki for 1.23 stuff. So copypasta:

Take a look at 1.23's mitigation skills

Aegis Boon - Fully blocks a hit and heals you.
Divine Veil - Raises block chance to 100% for the duration and spreads a regen effect to allies when Cure is cast on you.
Outmaneuver - Raises block chance and restores TP/MP on block.
Rampart - Raises defense. Is AOE. Generates enmity for every party member you hit with it.
Sentinel - Mitigates incoming damage and increases enmity generation during the effect.

Compared to now:

Sentinel - Mitigates damage.
Rampart - Mitigates damage.
Bulwark - Raises block chance, which mitigates physical damage. With most shields, worse than Rampart.
Awareness - Does nothing. Takes up a trait slot for extra badness.

Plus, all of the 1.23 abilities had pretty fast cooldowns compared to what we have now. Aegis was 45 seconds, Divine Veil 60, Sentinel and Outmaneuver 90, and Rampart 120. Now the shortest one available is the new, single effect only Rampart at 90 seconds, and Sentinel and Bulwark sit at 180.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Te...-lack-of-depth?p=846603&viewfull=1#post846603

The Bard concept worked a lot better in 1.23. Right now I don't know what the hell they are trying to do with songs. Dragoon got the short-end of the stick, in terms of fun an variety, compared to Monk (though the difference is not as bad as Paladin and Warrior). Just so happens those are my two jobs at 50 lol.

On top of all this, 1.23 was more unique and stood out. ARR is pretty bread-and-butter, arguably below some of the games it imitates.

What is likely to happen is that any complexity of this game will be based on boss gimmicks. Which is... alright, can be fun. But the combat system itself is in poor shape and using actions will be the least interesting part of the game for most jobs. On the bright side, notice I'm talking about liking 1.23 and not 1.0. I suspect at the very least Paladin will be changed a lot at some point.

...

I do agree with what you said about the limit breaks though. However, that's just a sign people were desperate for a certain something that would make combat system layered and interesting. People still want to limit breaks to do that, because there is little hope elsewhere.


EDIT: Final Fantasy MMOs have always been the successor of old school JRPGs in terms of character. This is both a bad and good thing, but seeing how they won't be adding role-playing choices (which I know SWTOR explored), I'm okay with it. I believe the Warrior of Light in Dissidia was used to symbolize the main character of XI with the WoL and Prishe relationship. We are literally 8-bit era protagonists, which I find kind of amusing.
 
I must say as someone who only played the v1 ( well v1.23 ) for a few weeks ( glad 25 and some other class to 10-15 ), I do prefer the old combat system.

It's hard for me to put into word why, but skills seemed to be more important even thought they were more scrace -well too scrace even for me- ( thought I think the Aegis Boon change is a good example of what is the problem ), and fight actually looked better ( well animated auto attack can be nice, and you enjoy far more a ws when you don't use it every 2 secondes ).

But of the 4 ppl I made try ffxiv v1.23, all couldn't stand the fights and thought it was boring/far far far too slow and only played for a week, while they are now enjoying the fight in the ARR beta. So I do think that they probably can make something far more successfull by improving ARR battle system than if they had tried to improve the 1.23 one.

Knowing you can reduce the GDC actually get me affraid though, because I really hope TP management will get some importance / slow down skill use during boss fight.
 
-Big post, oh god, snip-
I agree with all your criticisms of the current combat system, but disagree with some of the other points you make. There certainly is an overabundance of skills right now that just serve to clog up your hot bars, and do little effect, but still need to be used. Not to mention every class having around the same set of skills (attack with dot, attack with a stun, attack that gives you a buff, attack with a debuff, attack that boosts your next attack, attack that gives you mp, and a set of small buffs). The TP system is a very garbage version of energy.

All this is true, bit I do think a much better battle system can be built off this then the old one. The old system may be able to build much better player to player in battle interactions, but I much prefer being able to make more intricate and engaging boss and level design. Stuff that requires a lot more movement and placement that a system with skills that lock you into place can't really give. I don't think that just moving around really makes it "action" combat either. Tank and spank fights are pretty old hat, and no amount of required skill usage is going to change that.

Now remember, I fully agree with you on your criticisms of this combat system. It is most defiantly a worse system then numerous games at launch that came out through like the past 10 years. I just don't think it is because of the movement or the 2.5 GCD. It is because of the base TP system and how the skills and abilities themselves are relics from the past. Long cooldowns in general across the board, be it on the few "fun" skills or just tiny self buffs, and how every class's only difference of play style are some of those things in longer cool downs. People claiming that having the limit breaks just look different but do the same thing class to class would make it better blows my god damn mind since that is the exact problem with most of the game. The "look" of a skill or the weapon you are using shouldn't be the only thing that tells you what class you are playing.
 
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