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[Franz Brötchen]

fillon is no hillary clinton

Exactly, economically, he is still left of Sanders. Socially it's a different story, but many of us (mainland) Europeans forget so easily that we're basically all 'socialists' by default if looked at by 'the anglosphere'. (Hope the quotations make clear that I'm aware of simplifying things.)

 

[pa22word]

Look up Mark Blyth's presentation on Global Trumpism. This is a decades long cultivation, not a sudden fringe.

Speaking of him, also check out his book on Austerity. Really great reading.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Honest question, because I'm not the greatest at following the details of world events:
What exactly makes Russia so evil in 2016?

- Invaded their neighboring country.
- Creating more tensions with NATO.
- Spreading all sorts of bullshit online and through their news organisations in order to create problems for Western nations.
- Anti-gay stuff in their own country.
- Hacked the Democratic Party in America during an election.
- Funding right wing and extremist movements throughout Europe.

 

[Faustek]

The left would even less want Le Pen to be president...
As a matter of fact with such a program it may be harder for Le Pen to reach second round. Fillon will have a strong position, but many right moderate voters wouldn't vote for him on the first round.

BTW, thanks for answering in the French OT. Wasn't sure if I could klomp in there

 

[mo60]

They're already attacking him on twitter.

They're deeply scared.

Le Pen and the FN were shocked when he crushed both Sarkozy and Juppe in the first round of the center right's primary. They were prepared to face Juppe in the second round.

 

[Sasie]

Economic crisis, incompetent political leaders, terrorism. Plus foreigners being always the easy scapegoat.

And the general shitty attitude of the mainstream parties for the past tens of years: something is good (even financed from EU) - "we, the proud locals did it"; something is bad - "EU asked for this"

Plus the complete lack of the discussion about the irreversible impacts of globalism and population ageing.



Ah, I didn't know that. That's interesting.

In my opinion this is why EU needs to be reformed. Doesn't matter how good or bad they are when people have next to no insight into what's going on.

Local politicians are never going to accept blame for anything bad when it's so easy to blame the EU so the only way to change this is to make it impossible for them to do so. Otherwise people will just keep voting for the popular anti-EU parties who promise to move power back to the local country again.

If EU was taken out as a easy scapegoat I don't think these local populist parties would get over 5% of the votes but as it is they are just going to keep raising until something is done.

Reading this thread I wouldn't be surprised if a large portion of the left voted for Le Pen. It's basically a choice between a racist and another far-right candidate and of the two she might be talking about some of the economical positions they care about.

 

[Yamauchi]

He wants to talk to Russia? That's his platform? Need info, OP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Fillon#Political_positions

I've heard the term 'Thatcherite' used quite a bit to discuss him. He seems to have surprisingly socially conservative views (anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, etc.) which I didn't think were popular in mainland Europe, but he has said he doesn't want to change laws in these areas.

He's a very strong contender to go up against Le Pen.

 

[norinrad]

How in the fuck did all the right wing parties in the world suddenly all decide at once that they want to be best friends with Russia?

Vladimir is probably holding a s*x tape somewhere against them. The last politician that stood against him was caught at a hotel with another member of parliament.

 

[Jb]

Le Pen and the FN were shocked when he crushed both Sarkozy and Juppe in the first round of the center right's primary. They were prepared to face Juppe in the second round.

I was gutted to see Juppé trailing so far behind Fillon last week but if he can steal a good number of FN voters to make sure they get crushed like in 2002 that's a silver lining I guess.

At this point I'm just #anythingbutMarine. Montebourg, Valls, Fillon, Bayrou... whatever.
After Brexit and Trump we can't afford to be complacent. She needs to lose.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Do it, France. Crush Le Pen.

 

[Franz Brötchen]

In my opinion this is why EU needs to be reformed. Doesn't matter how good or bad they are when people have next to no insight into what's going on.

Local politicians are never going to accept blame for anything bad when it's so easy to blame the EU so the only way to change this is to make it impossible for them to do so. Otherwise people will just keep voting for the popular anti-EU parties who promise to move power back to the local country again.

If EU was taken out as a easy scapegoat I don't think these local populist parties would get over 5% of the votes but as it is they are just going to keep raising until something is done.

By 'local', do you mean local as in city or at most regional level, or do you mean national?
I mostly think that the true problem often times is exactly the last level, the nation which is very very unfortunately the level of power that will be bolstered most if there were a breaking up of the EU.
The nation state really shoud've died as a concept in the 20th century, being at the core of two world wars. Instead it scapegoats the very much needed international, global community...

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yay, that's the guy who referred to colonialism as "sharing France's culture with indigenous people". Fucking eww. Guess he's still maybe less bad than Le Pen, but still, ewww.

What's going to happen in the final round? This guy vs Le Pen only? No viable left-wing candidate at all? France is so fucked. This truly reminds me of a Trump vs Mike Pence kind of situation.

 

[ATF487]

I do not like much of what I've read of his platform...but he's not Le Pen.

France, vote for the lesser of two evils plz, don't be like the UK/USA

 

[Kabouter]

How in the fuck did all the right wing parties in the world suddenly all decide at once that they want to be best friends with Russia?

Putin to them represents someone who is willing to uphold conservative values and as an authoritarian, manages to hold Russia together. They see him as a strong leader who isn't afraid to use force to solve crises and who doesn't compromise. The fact that he invades neighbouring nations who don't do what he wants, that he has just about eliminated the free press in Russia or that he and his friends are robbing the Russian people blind is immaterial to them.

Oh, and France, this guy sucks, but please please vote for him and not Le Pen. Don't end the EU.

 

[Foffy]

Speaking of him, also check out his book on Austerity. Really great reading.

I came across Blyth only a week ago, but the points he makes are so much ether he's up there with Henry Giroux when it comes to explaining the problems we face in society.

 

[mo60]

I was gutted to see Juppé trailing so far behind Fillon last week but if he can steal a good number of FN voters to make sure they get crushed like in 2002 that's a silver lining I guess.

At this point I'm just #anythingbutMarine. Montebourg, Valls, Fillon, Bayrou... whatever.
After Brexit and Trump we can't afford to be complacent. She needs to lose.

I highly doubt she will be crushed by like 64.4% in the french presidential election next year but she will probably lose by 20 to 40 percent.

 

[azyless]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Fillon#Political_positions

I've heard the term 'Thatcherite' used quite a bit to discuss him. He seems to have surprisingly socially conservative views (anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, etc.) which I didn't think were popular in mainland Europe, but he has said he doesn't want to change laws in these areas.

He's a very strong contender to go up against Le Pen.

He's based a lot of his campaign on appealing to the religious right attached to their "family values". He's been very clear on what he thinks of gay couples having children and he'll 100% take that away.

 

[Snarfington]

I do not like much of what I've read of his platform...but he's not Le Pen.

France, vote for the lesser of two evils plz, don't be like the UK/USA

This is the sad truth to me. The pendulum of world politics is swinging right - even if you don't agree as a whole, it's a responsibility of the left to use their vote in the second round to ensure that the swing is stable at least and doesn't break anything else.

Le Pen is cancerous. Fillon seems to be merely bad.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Honest question, because I'm not the greatest at following the details of world events:
What exactly makes Russia so evil in 2016?

Putin is el presidente for life, invaded and annexed the Crimean peninsular 3 years ago, started a civil war in Ukraine then supplied, funded and directly supported the rebel faction with Russian soldiers, has been interfering in American democracy by hacking the DNC and releasing dirt (because Trump was their preferred candidate), sends monetary support to ultra right groups in Europe and anti-EU organizations, and runs a series of "independent" international media organizations with the aim of spreading misinformation to their own benefit.

The current goal of the Putin administration is to undermine the post-cold war international order and reassert Russia on the global stage. It wants to restore as much of its old empire as it can without provoking war with the west. This means dismantling NATO and the EU if at all possible, as well as trying to get pro-Russian leaders in other countries who will restore relations and trade with Russia after the west started enacting trade restrictions and personal embargoes to officials in response to Russian aggression in Europe.

 

[norinrad]

I wonder whether most French people would rather have Sarkozy back, after seeing these two candidates?

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I wonder whether most French people would rather have Sarkozy back, after seeing these two candidates?

Fillon was Sarkozy's Prime Minister for the entirety of his Presidency so it wouldn't change that much.

At least Fillon isn't an outright criminel like Sarkozy.

 

[Sasie]

By 'local', do you mean local as in city or at most regional level, or do you mean national?
I mostly think that the true problem often times is exactly the last level, the nation which is very very unfortunately the level of power that will be bolstered most if there were a breaking up of the EU.
The nation state really shoud've died as a concept in the 20th century, being at the core of two world wars. Instead it scapegoats the very much needed international, global community...

I mostly meant local as in local country, although city politicians also blame the EU when it comes to regulations from what I seen. Also slightly off-topic but the problem I have with global communities though is that it's hard to shallow why some country on the other side of the continent should have something to say about how we run things when the local region where I live has a completely different view on the matter.

Sweden generally been very social-democratic in the last 100 years but opinions are quite different in other European countries. People in the north of Sweden already find it annoying that the politicians are very Stockholm focused. Doing it on a global level is just going to piss people off. Until we have a solution on how to make people involved on a global level I honestly think politics should remain on as local level as possible and only move up a step when it makes sense to do so. That's the whole reason people complain about Brussels in the first place.

It's the easiest way to hold politicians accountable for corruption as well when they are closer to their voters hundreds of miles away.

 

[Yamauchi]

He's based a lot of his campaign on appealing to the religious right attached to their "family values". He's been very clear on what he thinks of gay couples having children and he'll 100% take that away.

Thanks. I don't know all of the details, just what I've read over the last week.

 

[azyless]

I wonder whether most French people would rather have Sarkozy back, after seeing these two candidates?

No. Sarkozy belongs in prison.

 

[Azzanadra]

How in the fuck did all the right wing parties in the world suddenly all decide at once that they want to be best friends with Russia?

Indeed, the only recent W I can think of is the election of Trudeau here in Canada, and even then I feel like the public is slowly turning against him and the Tories will return in 2019. Fuck me.

 

[Jb]

I highly doubt she will be crushed by like 64.4% in the french presidential election next year but she will probably lose by 20 to 40 percent.

You're probably right.
Seeing Le Pen ahead of Jospin in 2002 was a legitimate shock. Still, I hope to God we won't be as dumb as Americans and actually go out and vote against Marine, unlike that one poster on the first page.

 

[FDC1]

I wonder whether most French people would rather have Sarkozy back, after seeing these two candidates?

Why would they do? Sarkozy was candidate too and Fillon did twice his score.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Putin is el presidente for life, invaded and annexed the Crimean peninsular 3 years ago, started a civil war in Ukraine then supplied, funded and directly supported the rebel faction with Russian soldiers, has been interfering in American democracy by hacking the DNC and releasing dirt (because Trump was their preferred candidate), sends monetary support to ultra right groups in Europe and anti-EU organizations, and runs a series of "independent" international media organizations with the aim of spreading misinformation to their own benefit.

The current goal of the Putin administration is to undermine the post-cold war international order and reassert Russia on the global stage. It wants to restore as much of its old empire as it can without provoking war with the west. This means dismantling NATO and the EU if at all possible, as well as trying to get pro-Russian leaders in other countries who will restore relations and trade with Russia after the west started enacting trade restrictions and personal embargoes to officials in response to Russian aggression in Europe.

Last time I checked (it was a long time ago), Russia was actually suffering quite strongly from these trade restrictions. I wonder how long they'd hold up with them in place, and if fear of them staying didn't drive them to fund right parties even more, which would (partially) explain the rise of the far right we are seeing.

I wonder whether most French people would rather have Sarkozy back, after seeing these two candidates?

Seeing as Sarkoizy was crushed in the right primaries, I'd answer with no.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Whats Fillons position on the EU?

 

[Franz Brötchen]

I mostly meant local as in local country, although city politicians also blame the EU when it comes to regulations from what I seen. Also slightly off-topic but the problem I have with global communities though is that it's hard to shallow why some country on the other side of the continent should have something to say about how we run things when the local region where I live has a completely different view on the matter.

Sweden generally been very social-democratic in the last 100 years but opinions are quite different in other European countries. People in the north of Sweden already find it annoying that the politicians are very Stockholm focused. Doing it on a global level is just going to piss people off. Until we have a solution on how to make people involved on a global level I honestly think politics should remain on as local level as possible and only move up a step when it makes sense to do so. That's the whole reason people complain about Brussels in the first place.

It's the easiest way to hold politicians accountable for corruption as well when they are closer to their voters hundreds of miles away.

I am completely agreeing with that. The EU shouldn't be the place to regulate most things. On the contrary, most things should be decided as local as possible, mostly regional (in Germany's case especially, federal level is also already too far away from most regions.)
But there are definitely things like trade rules, environmental guidelines and even some aspects of foreign policy (unfortunately also including military) that in the 21st should just be coordinated globally. Since this is completely out of the question to be realized, make it as transregional or transnational as possible, the EU being the obvious level in Europe's case.

 

[Meadows]

Putin likes him so he'll win

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Putin likes him so he'll win

Pretty much lol FN is backrolled by the Russians anyway

 

[azyless]

You're probably right.
Seeing Le Pen ahead of Jospin in 2002 was a legitimate shock. Still, I hope to God we won't be as dumb as Americans and actually go out and vote against Marine, unlike that one poster on the first page.

Le Pen isn't Trump and Fillon sure isn't Clinton. There is literally nothing in Fillon's program that I'm not against. I think he's much worse than Le Pen on a lot of issues actually.
And I think you're all overestimating how much left voters will want to vote for someone like him. Literally don't know anyone in my close family who would.

 

[fanboi]

Whats Fillons position on the EU?

Pro

And I believe he wants more controll for EU even

 

[NyMartin90]

I have a feeling Le Pen will probably make it and the EU will be fatally wounded by her win.

 

[Franz Brötchen]

Le Pen isn't Trump and Fillon sure isn't Clinton. There is literally nothing in Fillon's program that I'm not against. I think he's much worse than Le Pen on a lot of issues actually.
And I think you're all overestimating how much left voters will want to vote for someone like him. Literally don't know anyone in my close family who would.

I'll go ahead and disagree strongly with you here, at least talking about economics. Not even Sanders would be okay with the number of employees in the French public service I'm afraid.

Sometimes I think we (the Netherlands) are the only country left where not a single party wants to turn back Gay marriage

Not even Wilders? He genuinely only hates Moroccans, the EU and any sense of hair fashion?

 

[roytheone]

The "Manif' pour tous" a group against same sex mariage and same sex adoption backs him and was the furthest at the right from both finalists.

Sometimes I think we (the Netherlands) are the only country left where not a single party wants to turn back Gay marriage

 

[djkimothy]

To American posters, this basically means the french presidential election is going to be Donald Trump vs Ted Cruz, barring some unexpected events.

Seriously? There is no progressive option?

 

[fanboi]

Sometimes I think we (the Netherlands) are the only country left where not a single party wants to turn back Gay marriage

Sweden have your back

 

[azyless]

I'll go ahead and disagree strongly with you here, at least talking about economics. Not even Sanders would be okay with the number of employees in the French public service I'm afraid.

Okay ? I don't really care about Sanders and I'm not sure what he has to do with anything. "French public service" is so large this doesn't really mean anything, you should probably go visit your local public hospital though if you think they can take cuts. It's not like this is the only thing on his program either.

Seriously? There is no progressive option?

For the first round yes probably. No one is expected to make it to the second though.

 

[BocoDragon]

Indeed, the only recent W I can think of is the election of Trudeau here in Canada, and even then I feel like the public is slowly turning against him and the Tories will return in 2019. Fuck me.

People hated Trudeau's glowing eulogy for Castro. First crack in the dam...

 

[Franz Brötchen]

Okay ? I don't really care about Sanders and I'm not sure what he has to do with anything. "French public service" is so large this doesn't really mean anything, you should probably go visit your local public hospital though if you think they can take cuts. It's not like this is the only thing on his program either.

Well duh, show me the country on earth not making billions of natural ressources (aka ignore Norway) where public healthcare isn't operating on what is considered life support though that also doesn't mean anything.
To make my point clear: Economically, perceptions of what is left and right are extremely skewed for us Europeans, we're all basically socialists. And yes this especially includes Germany.
Something like our dreaded Hartz reforms will be coming to France, I'm afraid.

 

[norinrad]

It doesn't matter which candidate wins, just be prepared to live in a country that would be virtually shutdown by all sorts of institutions, Groups, Unions etc all being on strike for the candidates entire term.

The EU was recovering from 2008 then Brexit happened, then Trump and now this shit show in France.

 

[Kabouter]

Sometimes I think we (the Netherlands) are the only country left where not a single party wants to turn back Gay marriage

SGP and CU would in a heartbeat if they were in power, particularly SGP. Neither one has even the tiniest chance of getting into such a position, but still.

 

[Ekid]

So french press is referring to this guy has the french version of Margaret Thatcher.

Well I'm not from UK bit I didn't hear many good things about her.

 

[Sickboy007]

Sweden have your back

Sweden Democrats (20% in the last polls) are against same-sex adoption, too.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

I do not like much of what I've read of his platform...but he's not Le Pen.

France, vote for the lesser of two evils plz, don't be like the UK/USA

You've just jinxed us all.

 

[Steel]

The whole world is going crazy all at once. That being said, this guy is still better than Le Page, so don't fuck up France.

 

[roytheone]

SGP and CU would in a heartbeat if they were in power, particularly SGP. Neither one has even the tiniest chance of getting into such a position, but still.

They will not publicly say that though, since that will create a shit storm for them. That makes me thing we are doing something right

Not even Wilders? He genuinely only hates Moroccans, the EU and any sense of hair fashion?

Wilders is actually pretty pro LGBT.

 

[azyless]

Sometimes I think we (the Netherlands) are the only country left where not a single party wants to turn back Gay marriage

He said he wouldn't turn back gay marriage. He wants to ban adoption though, which is right now literally the only legal way to have children in France as a gay couple (no in vitro, no surrogacy).