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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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SwissLion

Member
Patreon is just buying a dev's Game on an instalment plan. It might end up being more or less than the price of the game but it is the same functional relationship. It's a site founded and operated around taking the very old concept of patronage and crowd-sourcing it. Wealthy patrons would pay artists a stipend, and in return artists would produce art. This would often not be art in any way owned by the patron, though often it paid tribute to them in some way. It was simply a way of supporting artistic creation and also basically exchanging money for prestige. It led to most of the great artistic works of the Renaissance. (/Historyminute)

I have no problem with making a policy of disclosure for this stuff. If you're really bothered by someone covering someone paying for that product you can decide for yourself whether to trust that writer or not. And in fact if it precedes an article on a little-known indie struggling to get by and gives that avenue to support them more exposure it's absolutely a net positive.

Banning Patreon contributions outright is fucking stupid though. It was a reactionary move, blatantly pandering to loud assholes which achieves literally nothing but take money out of the pockets of already struggling indie devs.
 

Forkball

Member
So is there an endgame to this? When does a side win? Is Anita going to duel King Gamergate or something? Or do we just ride it out until Black Friday when everyone is too distracted to continue this?
 

Brakke

Banned
Patreon relationships are something that SHOULD be disclosed.

I mean, would you trust a newspaper that was funding a political side whilst reporting on that side?(Edit-Not saying that's what's happening, but disclosure should be the same for all journalists across all fields if they want to be respected.)

Disagree with the edit. Most all games writing is more punditry than it is journalism, those standards are different. And stakes matter. Political reporting needs to be as precise and to truth as it can be because it influences votes on things that define lives. If someone writes about a game a bit more glowingly than the game strictly deserves because they like it... what? Especially at the Patreon scale of developers where whatever they're making is going to cost five to ten bucks if anything at all.

But whatever, that's all beside the point. Totilo wants it disclosed, fine sure who cares. Just don't institute that policy in a way that encourages terrorists and their methods.

The face of gamer gate right here. This gamer gate guy is trying to explain why it's okay to mostly target women:
https://twitter.com/Curunitar/status/518335124812095488


Wow.

"Women's suffrage: worse than World War II?"

Incredible.
 
or just buying a game off the shelf. you're paying money to get content. corruption is taking money to do something you wouldn't normally do.

To gamer gate, "corruption" is any reason they can come up with for discrediting an opinion they don't agree with without actually engaging with the argument presented.
 

ryanmac

Banned
The longer this shit drags on the more I think a vast majority of gamers don't even realize the conversation exists. It's a bunch of self-important people that think they're changing the world (on both sides). I look forward to when the entire thing is a distant memory.
 

Riposte

Member
I liked when Kamiya called it Gamer Whatever in one of his tweets.

That "Letter from the Editor" Polygon article got pretty pretentious in parts. Toys are cultural artifacts (including what they really meant, art work). Any (recreational) "tool" or "object" that pleasures or engages you can arguably described as a "toy" (although I realize how many people would get upset if we started calling films and such "toys", but it'd be more true than not). And their idea of treating something as "not a toy", but instead a "cultural artifact", is to mention some of the sexy art and camera direction bothered Gies lol. Sounds perfectly inline with how games are and have been reviewed, as "toys", the whole time. I guess the difference between capital "C" Videogame Culture and just boring old videogame culture is that the former is about making you feel like an adult, a thing people who feel uncomfortable with the notion that the thing they write about/spend their professional life on are "mere" "toys" would desperately want (hey, it worked for other mediums).

Why does the fight against the "objectivity" fallacy have to go flying into pseudo-intellectualism? But I guess it's partially the fault of the people they are responding to who don't realize what they want or know how to argue for its value.
 

L Thammy

Member
That "Death threats" thread and the replies in it really put a dent into my mood about this whole thing. I was hoping that the obvious toxicity and the clear-cut bigotry would motivate people to do something about this and actually care, but apparently people still want to sit on their asses and do nothing.

I am worried that nothing will change for the better after this.

I think that a big part is a genuine perception that these people are "trolls", that they are looking for attention. It's just too easy to explain things away like that. But considering where this started, it's pretty obvious that this isn't just noise; there's a genuine desire to cause harm here.

By the way, this was hilarious last night:

2e32BIU.png


People LOSING THEIR MINDS over Kamiya saying this (actually pretty milquetoast) tweet.

Most people trying to convince themselves he just has to stay quiet to keep the press Illuminati off his back.

<3
 
So is there an endgame to this? When does a side win? Is Anita going to duel King Gamergate or something? Or do we just ride it out until Black Friday when everyone is too distracted to continue this?

It's not anything like a game. This is about changing culture. Which is a slow process punctuated by moments of turmoil while the people who are afraid of losing their privilege and the status quo get angry and lash out. The best thing to do is reinforce the good aspects of change while denouncing the reactionaries and extremists.
 

freddy

Banned
The longer this shit drags on the longer I think a vast majority of gamers don't even realize the conversation exists. It's a bunch of self-important people that think they're changing the world (on both sides). I look forward to when the entire thing is a distant memory.

I'd tend to agree with this. Most people I ask about it either don't care or just don't want to be involved in the shit flinging.
 
Dont care about her private life. I care that she basically destroyed a gamejam then immediately started her own.

What, so she walked into their offices and personally shut it down? She asked some questions about their policies, and their backers agreed with her. Not her fault in the slightest, no matter how much TFYC like throwing her under the bus to excuse their own managerial failings.

I'm late to these but I think that there are might be pro-GGers who do believe that she, and other SJWs, are asking questions about their hobby, rounding up the support of "outsiders" and trying to enact change. To them, SJWs are like the Parent Television Council that prevents people from saying the f-word on broadcast TV. They aren't trying to legally enforce their views, but are bringing in a mob of those that supposedly don't understand or appreciate the culture and trying to enforce their viewpoints. And that is scary. I wouldn't like it if another Wertham-like hysteria took over the comic book industry, which effectively destroyed it in the 50s.

But that's just free speech. People are allowed to voice their opinions. Fight against that with your own. Harassment and threats are unacceptable and cause you to lose the moral ground you stand on.
 

JackDT

Member
A general feeling I've seen long before GG amongst friends that have anti-"SJW" feelings is that there's an enormous issue of "undeserved merit".

In their eyes one of the biggest crimes in the industry is getting exposure you "don't deserve".

A lot of the narrative used around people like anita/zoe stems down to this:
- they don't really believe what they're saying, they just want attention.
- they sleep around for attention.
- they actively try to get harassed to get attention.

Kathy Sierra talked that being the reason people are angry, rather than the content they claim to be angry about:

http://seriouspony.com/trouble-at-the-koolaid-point/

Later I learned that the first threat had nothing to do with what I actually made or said in my books, blog posts, articles, and conference presentations. The real problem &#8212; as my first harasser described &#8212; was that others were beginning to pay attention to me. He wrote as if mere exposure to my work was harming his world.

But here&#8217;s the key: it turned out he wasn&#8217;t outraged about my work. His rage was because, in his mind, my work didn&#8217;t deserve the attention. Spoiler alert: &#8220;deserve&#8221; and &#8220;attention&#8221; are at the heart.

From the hater&#8217;s POV, you (the Koolaid server) do not &#8220;deserve&#8221; that attention. You are &#8220;stealing&#8221; an audience. From their angry, frustrated point of view, the idea that others listen to you is insanity. From their emotion-fueled view you don&#8217;t have readers you have cult followers. That just can&#8217;t be allowed.

It begins with simple threats. You know, rape, dismemberment, the usual. It&#8217;s a good place to start, those threats, because you might simply vanish once those threats include your family. Mission accomplished. But today, many women online &#8212; you women who are far braver than I am &#8212; you stick around. And now, since you stuck around through the first wave of threats, you are now a much BIGGER problem. Because the Worst Possible Thing has happened: as a result of those attacks, you are NOW serving Victim-Flavored Koolaid.

And Victim-Flavored Koolaid is the most dangerous substance on earth, apparently.

And the trolls aren&#8217;t stupid. The most damaging troll/haters are some of the most powerful people (though they self-describe as outcasts). Typically, the hacker trolls are technically-talented, super smart white men. They&#8217;re not just hackers. They are social engineers. They understand behavioral psych. They know their Kahneman. They &#8220;get&#8221; memes. They exploit a vulnerability in the brains of your current and potential listeners.

How? By unleashing a mind virus guaranteed to push emotional buttons for your real, NOT-troll audience. In my specific case, it was my alleged threat to a free and open internet. &#8220;She issued DMCA takedowns for sites that criticized her.&#8221; Yes, that one even made it&#8217;s way into a GQ magazine article not long ago, when the writer Sanjiv Bhattacharya interviewed weev and asked about &#8212; get this &#8212; the &#8220;ethics&#8221; of doxxing me. Weev's explanation was just one more leveling up in my discredit/disinfo program: DMCA takedowns. I had, apparently, issued DMCA takedowns.

If you are in the tech world, issuing a DMCA takedown is worse than kicking puppies off a pier. But what I did? It was (according to the meme) much much worse. I did it (apparently) to stifle criticism. If a DMCA takedown is kicking puppies, doing it to &#8220;stifle criticism&#8221; is like single-handedly causing the extinction of puppies, kittens, and the constitution. Behold my awesome and terrible power. Go me.

But here&#8217;s the thing. I never did that. I never did anything even a teeny tiny nano bit like that. But sure enough, even on my last day on Twitter, there it was again: Kathy did DMCA&#8217;s. And it wasn&#8217;t even a troll saying it, it was another woman in tech who believed the meme because she believed weev. Because in twisted troll logic, it makes sense. She must have done something pretty awful to deserve what, according to weev, &#8220;she had coming.&#8221;

After the GQ story came out, the one where weev &#8220;justified&#8221; the harassment of me by introducing the DMCA fiction, I asked him about it on Twitter. &#8220;Where, seriously, where exactly did I ever issue a DMCA?&#8221; His answer? Oh, right, he didn&#8217;t have an answer. Because it didn&#8217;t happen. But see? he doesn't have to. He's already launched the Kathy-does-DMCA-takedowns meme. Evidence not required. For that matter, common sense not required.
 
this has already been addressed in this thread but that writer said some very shitty and misguided things and it's not surprise at least one advertiser acted this way.
 

Crowbear

Member
How the hell did Merdeces-Benz fall for this this?
gLoJFYw.png

I think this turned out to be fake?

Either way, that was supposedly in reaction to a Gawker writer tweeting about bullying people over this stuff which is a fucking stupid thing to say and losing advertisers over that wouldn't be the worst thing for him.
 
The longer this shit drags on the more I think a vast majority of gamers don't even realize the conversation exists. It's a bunch of self-important people that think they're changing the world (on both sides). I look forward to when the entire thing is a distant memory.

This is a perfectly reasonable position to take if you are someone that isn't personally affected by any of the negative shit flinging. Some people can't just ignore it.
 
I'm late to these but I think that there are might be pro-GGers who do believe that she, and other SJWs, are asking questions about their hobby, rounding up the support of "outsiders" and trying to enact change. To them, SJWs are like the Parent Television Council that prevents people from saying the f-word on broadcast TV. They aren't trying to legally enforce their views, but are bringing in a mob of those that supposedly don't understand or appreciate the culture and trying to enforce their viewpoints. And that is scary. I wouldn't like it if another Wertham-like hysteria took over the comic book industry, which effectively destroyed it in the 50s.

But that's just free speech. People are allowed to voice their opinions. Fight against that with your own. Harassment and threats are unacceptable and cause you to lose the moral ground you stand on.

Pretty much. What GG has out for SJ folks is that they can get support behind them, and use their speech to run counter to GG interests. This cannot be allowed, which is why GG wants to censor them so badly.

You see the same in politics, especially on the right. You are never, ever suppose to organize against a right wing type, it's somehow this horrible bad thing.
 
To gamer gate, "corruption" is any reason they can come up with for discrediting an opinion they don't agree with without actually engaging with the argument presented.

Yes. That's my experience. I say 'The person who coined the term GamerGate says that issues like the Bayonnetta 2 review are why GamerGate is necessary.' They say 'he didn't coin that term'.

I say 'The GamerGate movement wants you to think it's a coincidence that all the people they criticize and boycott openly support feminism'. They say 'it's not a movement'.

I mean, both of those discredits were easily demonstrated to be wrong too, but what's important isn't addressing any of the issues or talking points, but finding *anything* that their critics have said that might be wrong and just going on about that instead.
 
I was thinking about something. Movies and book critics get advanced screening or early copies from film companies and publishers, can still provide honest reviews. Expendable doesn't give every movie A+ because he got to see it early at some private screening.

We can't expect the same from game critics and reviewers? Or is the medium not there yet?
 

Liberty4all

Banned
I finally took the time today to catch up on what exactly the controversy is over. After reading over the OP and linked articles I would like to share my experiences, especially since I'm not involved at all in the enthusiast press industry anymore.

In 2006 I joined an enthusiast press gaming website "MSXBOX-WORLD" (now defunct). We covered Microsoft's Xbox 360 exclusively. Most of the staff were based in the UK, they didn't have anybody covering North American PR/events which is the area I took over.

My experience with press events are based on how THQ ran their events. In North America we didn't have invites from the other publishers.

So typically this is how THQ events rolled:

1. Publisher would invite to fly us to major city to cover game
2. We would be put up in 5 star hotel typically with either a food stipend (50 - 75 per day) or full buffet spreads provided -- along with alcohol. Lots and lots of alcohol.
3. Events usually lasted 3 days. First day would be flying in, dinner/introductions, possibly drinking
4. Second day would be a combination of press coverage on game and an "outing".
5. Third day would be fly home day

Outings were interesting. Some examples:

a. For MX vs ATV for example we were put up in Four Seasons (on top of Mandaly Bay) taken dirt biking in the Nevada desert, complete with a buffet set up in the middle of nowhere.
b. Legends of Wrestlemania consisted of box seats in Houston at Wrestlemania.
c. Almost all UFC games covered our writers would also be at at live UFC match.
d. The launch of Saint Rows consisted of flying to San Francisco, going to a club with an open bar and playing Saints Row all night, then flying home in the morning.
e. Another event involved flying to the WWE training camp in Flordia and watching live matches with upcoming stars as well as meeting actual WWE stars.
f. At another event my colleague got "mapped" so his face would be in the audience of a WWE game.

From talking to other people from press outlets at these events I gathered that almost all these publisher events worked pretty much the same although THQ was known to be the most lavish of them all in terms of their PR with press outlets. THQ also seemed to treat enthusiast outlets equally with corporate outlets -- essentially anyone on metacritics or gamerankings would be invited to come. Anyone that fell off metacritics or gamerankings would find their invites pulled.

So was it corrupt?

I mean at the time it was obvious that on the publisher end of things they were paying for coverage via these lavish press junkets --- hotels, flights, events don't come cheap. The flipside is that as a small enthusiast site we wrote whatever we wanted and to hell with the consequences. The other consideration is that at the time that's simply "how it worked". Either you got connected with publishers or you would have nothing to write about/cover. At the same time I don't remember us ever letting publisher PR bully us into giving high or low review scores.

I wonder how things have changed. I got out of the enthusiast press at the end of 2011.
 
By the way, this was hilarious last night:

2e32BIU.png


People LOSING THEIR MINDS over Kamiya saying this (actually pretty milquetoast) tweet.

Most people trying to convince themselves he just has to stay quiet to keep the press Illuminati off his back.

I love that he blocked a guy that brought up Anita S. "hated Bayonetta".

EDIT: And the guy that asked if he had autism over this.
 
I wonder how things have changed. I got out of the enthusiast press at the end of 2011.
My outlet (being a mainstream newspaper) as well as the outlets I've written for have pretty strict rules against accepting travel/accommodations from publishers, so I can't say from experience. I've only been to a couple preview events (because they were local to me and therefore travel wasn't really an issue), and they weren't anything near that scale. My understanding is that those things aren't as "lavish" as they used to be, but I'm probably not the best person to confirm that.
 

Liberty4all

Banned
My outlet (being a mainstream newspaper) as well as the outlets I've written for have pretty strict rules against accepting travel/accommodations from publishers, so I can't say from experience. I've only been to a couple preview events (because they were local to me and therefore travel wasn't really an issue), and they weren't anything near that scale. My understanding is that those things aren't as "lavish" as they used to be, but I'm probably not the best person to confirm that.

The enthusiast press was (and I'm sure still is) filled with smaller sites with budgets consisting of $0 outside of barely covering server/operational costs (often not even that). Either the publishers payed for them to attend preview/launch events or they wouldn't be able to go.

The bigger corporate sites often paid their own way. The thing is though metacritics and gamerankings scores were made up of aggregate scores of which enthusiast press tended to have a much bigger "weight" in determining the overall aggregate score.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Yeah. Today on twitter we're going to be mostly yelling about collusion. Because professionals having a conversation about their profession in private... is ILLEGAL.

Oh, and random GG guy on twitter just tells me 'GamerGate' isn't a movement. Because if you can't disagree with my point, you've still got to find *something* to disagree with.

I had a GGer say a similar thing to me and what they said was "It isn't a movement, it's a consumer revolt"

All I could do was make a face at my screen because the conversation was just going in a dumb big circle.
 
I finally took the time today to catch up on what exactly the controversy is over. After reading over the OP and linked articles I would like to share my experiences, especially since I'm not involved at all in the enthusiast press industry anymore.

In 2006 I joined an enthusiast press gaming website "MSXBOX-WORLD" (now defunct). We covered Microsoft's Xbox 360 exclusively. Most of the staff were based in the UK, they didn't have anybody covering North American PR/events which is the area I took over.

My experience with press events are based on how THQ ran their events. In North America we didn't have invites from the other publishers.

So typically this is how THQ events rolled:

1. Publisher would invite to fly us to major city to cover game
2. We would be put up in 5 star hotel typically with either a food stipend (50 - 75 per day) or full buffet spreads provided -- along with alcohol. Lots and lots of alcohol.
3. Events usually lasted 3 days. First day would be flying in, dinner/introductions, possibly drinking
4. Second day would be a combination of press coverage on game and an "outing".
5. Third day would be fly home day

Outings were interesting. Some examples:

a. For MX vs ATV for example we were put up in Four Seasons (on top of Mandaly Bay) taken dirt biking in the Nevada desert, complete with a buffet set up in the middle of nowhere.
b. Legends of Wrestlemania consisted of box seats in Houston at Wrestlemania.
c. Almost all UFC games covered our writers would also be at at live UFC match.
d. The launch of Saint Rows consisted of flying to San Francisco, going to a club with an open bar and playing Saints Row all night, then flying home in the morning.
e. Another event involved flying to the WWE training camp in Flordia and watching live matches with upcoming stars as well as meeting actual WWE stars.
f. At another event my colleague got "mapped" so his face would be in the audience of a WWE game.

From talking to other people from press outlets at these events I gathered that almost all these publisher events worked pretty much the same although THQ was known to be the most lavish of them all in terms of their PR with press outlets. THQ also seemed to treat enthusiast outlets equally with corporate outlets -- essentially anyone on metacritics or gamerankings would be invited to come. Anyone that fell off metacritics or gamerankings would find their invites pulled.

So was it corrupt?

I mean at the time it was obvious that on the publisher end of things they were paying for coverage via these lavish press junkets --- hotels, flights, events don't come cheap. The flipside is that as a small enthusiast site we wrote whatever we wanted and to hell with the consequences. The other consideration is that at the time that's simply "how it worked". Either you got connected with publishers or you would have nothing to write about/cover. At the same time I don't remember us ever letting publisher PR bully us into giving high or low review scores.

I wonder how things have changed. I got out of the enthusiast press at the end of 2011.

The question is: did those events ever cause you to slant coverage in favor of the game in question?

That's where the ethical violation would be, if anywhere.
 
The flipside is that as a small enthusiast site we wrote whatever we wanted and to hell with the consequences. The other consideration is that at the time that's simply "how it worked". Either you got connected with publishers or you would have nothing to write about/cover. At the same time I don't remember us ever letting publisher PR bully us into giving high or low review scores.

I feel like this is one of those things which is supposed to work on a more subconscious level. They don't out and say "right, we're taking you dirt biking so give us good coverage," but taking you dirt biking puts you in the kind of great mood where you can play a game and be more forgiving of any flaws it might have.

If you get what I mean.

If they sent you a shit game in the post to play and you were annoyed beforehand and you knew you had to play it for the next three hours, you're just going to hate it, and you'll write that. They know the kind of environment to create in order to give their games the best chance of decent press. You wouldn't even realise you were being manipulated that way, no one would, but these guys do this stuff for a reason.

In the grand scheme of things it's not that important, really, a bad game is still going to be bad when it comes to review time, but it's a pretty big factor in why preview coverage of games is almost universally positive, and that's what matters to publishers. Pre-release hype sells more games than review scores. That's an issue for consumers, who need to stop pre-ordering stuff based on hype alone because they end up with driveclub or that Alien game from last year or something.
 
I feel like this is one of those things which is supposed to work on a more subconscious level. They don't out and say "right, we're taking you dirt biking so give us good coverage," but taking you dirt biking puts you in the kind of great mood where you can play a game and be more forgiving of any flaws it might have.

If you get what I mean.

If they sent you a shit game in the post to play and you were annoyed beforehand and you knew you had to play it for the next three hours, you're just going to hate it, and you'll write that. They know the kind of environment to create in order to give their games the best chance of decent press. You wouldn't even realise you were being manipulated that way, no one would, but these guys do this stuff for a reason.

In the grand scheme of things it's not that important, really, a bad game is still going to be bad when it comes to review time, but it's a pretty big factor in why preview coverage of games is almost universally positive, and that's what matters to publishers. Pre-release hype sells more games than review scores. That's an issue for consumers, who need to stop pre-ordering stuff based on hype alone because they end up with driveclub or that Alien game from last year or something.

Actually, now that you put it that way, it sounds like what lobbyist's do. They don't bribe people, they wine and dine them, to influence them to support their cause.

(officially.)

And I actually do have a Colonial Marines shirt. Was pretty awesome actually. I dare not wear it anymore though.

I wonder if there is were a solid gift policy comes in. Anything too 'extravagant' and you have to start declining. I think we run into this at work with our sales folks, who have to be sure to temper themselves and not offer the moon, because a lot of clients will pass due to their own policies.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I finally took the time today to catch up on what exactly the controversy is over. After reading over the OP and linked articles I would like to share my experiences, especially since I'm not involved at all in the enthusiast press industry anymore.

In 2006 I joined an enthusiast press gaming website "MSXBOX-WORLD" (now defunct). We covered Microsoft's Xbox 360 exclusively. Most of the staff were based in the UK, they didn't have anybody covering North American PR/events which is the area I took over.

My experience with press events are based on how THQ ran their events. In North America we didn't have invites from the other publishers.

So typically this is how THQ events rolled:

1. Publisher would invite to fly us to major city to cover game
2. We would be put up in 5 star hotel typically with either a food stipend (50 - 75 per day) or full buffet spreads provided -- along with alcohol. Lots and lots of alcohol.
3. Events usually lasted 3 days. First day would be flying in, dinner/introductions, possibly drinking
4. Second day would be a combination of press coverage on game and an "outing".
5. Third day would be fly home day

Yup, a friend of mine was a game journalist from Belgium and he'd tell me all about that stuff. I actually hanged out with him in May 2010 when he flew over to Montreal (from Belgium!) for one day just for a preview of Deus Ex: HR. He stayed in a fancy hotel, ate in a fancy steakhouse, etc. And he'd tell me about past parties he attended with big publishers, all the lavish foods and alcohol they'd provide, etc.

No, it's not bribery. But damn if it's not some form of pernicious lobbying.

They don't do that with journalists only, either. Eidos did that with our very own Mama Robotnik for that Nosgoth game. It's all very dubious.

The question is: did those events ever cause you to slant coverage in favor of the game in question?

That's where the ethical violation would be, if anywhere.
It's hard to say, because it's hard to measure, but I think it does to a certain extent. Why else would the publishers spend so much money to please journalists? And all that alcohol flowing so freely, I can't believe it doesn't have some sort of effect in the end. Not in the "ok I'm drunk brb gonna post enthusiastic preview article about <game>", but in the sense of creating bonds and mollifying journalists who might have been more critical or skeptical previously.
 
By the way, this was hilarious last night:

2e32BIU.png


People LOSING THEIR MINDS over Kamiya saying this (actually pretty milquetoast) tweet.

Most people trying to convince themselves he just has to stay quiet to keep the press Illuminati off his back.

So instead of buying Bayo 2 in droves it's boycott time now?
 

zeldablue

Member
I liked when Kamiya called it Gamer Whatever in one of his tweets.

That "Letter from the Editor" Polygon article got pretty pretentious in parts. Toys are cultural artifacts (including what they really meant, art work). Any (recreational) "tool" or "object" that pleasures or engages you can arguably described as a "toy" (although I realize how many people would get upset if we started calling films and such "toys", but it'd be more true than not). And their idea of treating something as "not a toy", but instead a "cultural artifact", is to mention some of the sexy art and camera direction bothered Gies lol. Sounds perfectly inline with how games are and have been reviewed, as "toys", the whole time. I guess the difference between capital "C" Videogame Culture and just boring old videogame culture is that the former is about making you feel like an adult, a thing people who feel uncomfortable with the notion that the thing they write about/spend their professional life on are "mere" "toys" would desperately want (hey, it worked for other mediums).

Why does the fight against the "objectivity" fallacy have to go flying into pseudo-intellectualism? But I guess it's partially the fault of the people they are responding to who don't realize what they want or know how to argue for its value.

Where's the source on this?

I agree with Kamiya, everything is a cultural artifact. Just look at the games Japan loves compared to the games the western world loves. The way they grade is night and day. There's a clear difference in tastes and expectations. The opinions of most reviewers are going to be inline with what that country sees as right and wrong when it comes to games. Nintendo has said time and time again how much they don't care for where western games headed, so they tried to go their separate ways. They cut ties almost primarily for cultural reasons.

If the people of the San Fran area measure their tastes and expectations in the depictions of gender and minorities...then that makes sense to me. Heck, in Japan, first person shooters literally make most Japanese players feel sick! And excessive violence doesn't even fit in with Japanese tastes. So of course that's a cultural problem that is going to lead to worse grades. If everyone in San Fran is a pretentious prude, then Bayonetta may lead to the same feeling of sickness. Everything, and I mean everything is relative when it comes to these things. It's not about what is right or wrong. It's about what is right for one group and what is right for the other. (Which is why marketing exists in the first place...)

Edit: herp, I thought you were quoting Kamiya, but I guess these are your thoughts?

On why FPSs don't sell well in Japan.
TN:There&#8217;s probably two main reasons, the first is about marketing and how they are advertised. They are not really marketed very well in Japan and they&#8217;re not made to seem very appealing to Japanese users. And the second reason is the story-telling and dramaâ&#8364;¦ it&#8217;s funny because the successful movie makers in Hollywood, they do a really good job in making their stories universal. But compared to their success game creators in the West, they don&#8217;t seem to do the same.

So it&#8217;s really hard for Japanese or Asian users to feel related to those stories and drama. Probably the main reason is that there&#8217;s probably just too much violence to our taste.

TN:I agree with your concerns. If every game was just concerned with being realistic then it would be quite boring and there would be a lack of creativity. This extreme sort of obsession with the realistic image of guns and military is probably one of the main reasons why these games do not sell in Japan. Because in Japan having a gun or just the idea of owning a gun is just not encouraged.

So in Japan, things that we would love (Guns, blood and violence) might rate lowly and be considered bad. While things they love (Angst, teenagers and anime) might be considered bad over here. Throwing boobs and sexism into the equation doesn't seem like a stretch.
 
I finally took the time today to catch up on what exactly the controversy is over. After reading over the OP and linked articles I would like to share my experiences, especially since I'm not involved at all in the enthusiast press industry anymore.

In 2006 I joined an enthusiast press gaming website "MSXBOX-WORLD" (now defunct). We covered Microsoft's Xbox 360 exclusively. Most of the staff were based in the UK, they didn't have anybody covering North American PR/events which is the area I took over.

My experience with press events are based on how THQ ran their events. In North America we didn't have invites from the other publishers.

So typically this is how THQ events rolled:

1. Publisher would invite to fly us to major city to cover game
2. We would be put up in 5 star hotel typically with either a food stipend (50 - 75 per day) or full buffet spreads provided -- along with alcohol. Lots and lots of alcohol.
3. Events usually lasted 3 days. First day would be flying in, dinner/introductions, possibly drinking
4. Second day would be a combination of press coverage on game and an "outing".
5. Third day would be fly home day

Outings were interesting. Some examples:

a. For MX vs ATV for example we were put up in Four Seasons (on top of Mandaly Bay) taken dirt biking in the Nevada desert, complete with a buffet set up in the middle of nowhere.
b. Legends of Wrestlemania consisted of box seats in Houston at Wrestlemania.
c. Almost all UFC games covered our writers would also be at at live UFC match.
d. The launch of Saint Rows consisted of flying to San Francisco, going to a club with an open bar and playing Saints Row all night, then flying home in the morning.
e. Another event involved flying to the WWE training camp in Flordia and watching live matches with upcoming stars as well as meeting actual WWE stars.
f. At another event my colleague got "mapped" so his face would be in the audience of a WWE game.

From talking to other people from press outlets at these events I gathered that almost all these publisher events worked pretty much the same although THQ was known to be the most lavish of them all in terms of their PR with press outlets. THQ also seemed to treat enthusiast outlets equally with corporate outlets -- essentially anyone on metacritics or gamerankings would be invited to come. Anyone that fell off metacritics or gamerankings would find their invites pulled.

So was it corrupt?

I mean at the time it was obvious that on the publisher end of things they were paying for coverage via these lavish press junkets --- hotels, flights, events don't come cheap. The flipside is that as a small enthusiast site we wrote whatever we wanted and to hell with the consequences. The other consideration is that at the time that's simply "how it worked". Either you got connected with publishers or you would have nothing to write about/cover. At the same time I don't remember us ever letting publisher PR bully us into giving high or low review scores.

I wonder how things have changed. I got out of the enthusiast press at the end of 2011.

You wonder how it's changed?

Assassin's Creed Unity event (Ubisoft covered travel and hotel, again many larger outlets like GameInformer pay for their own travel these days):

I flew from my home to Vegas. Get there at 10pm, but I'm East Coast, so it's early in the morning. I walk from my hotel to the Bellagio to see it, get food on my dime, come back to the hotel and sleep.

I wake up at 8am to get breakfast (on my dime) to meet Ubisoft. They bus us to another venue, where we play Unity for five hours. They provide tacos for lunch. I get on a Super Shuttle (my dime), get to the airport, get dinner (my dime again!), and spend nearly 12 hours in airport red-eye hell to get home.

That's my event travel. An SOE event for EQ Landmark was much the same.

That's crazy stuff may still happen - thought THQ is dead, dead, dead - but I personally don't see it. Then again, I don't have a constant stream of swag heading my way either. Others may have a different experience. Again, we're not all the same and we don't all spend our lives living it up like rockstars.
 

Cyrano

Member
You wonder how it's changed?

Assassin's Creed Unity event (Ubisoft covered travel and hotel, again many larger outlets like GameInformer pay for their own travel these days):

I flew from my home to Vegas. Get there at 10pm, but I'm East Coast, so it's early in the morning. I walk from my hotel to the Bellagio to see it, get food on my dime, come back to the hotel and sleep.

I wake up at 8am to get breakfast (on my dime) to meet Ubisoft. They bus us to another venue, where we play Unity for five hours. They provide tacos for lunch. I get on a Super Shuttle (my dime), get to the airport, get dinner (my dime again!), and spend nearly 12 hours in airport red-eye hell to get home.

That's my event travel. An SOE event for EQ Landmark was much the same.

That's crazy stuff may still happen - thought THQ is dead, dead, dead - but I personally don't see it. Then again, I don't have a constant stream of swag heading my way either. Others may have a different experience. Again, we're not all the same and we don't all spend our lives living it up like rockstars.
I'm fairly certain that anyone covering videogames isn't living it up. Hell, I'm pretty certain that unless you're one of the 1% of ridiculously wealthy people, you'll never get to live it up (unless you're willing to scrounge for months on end to get some respite).

It seems crazy that people so easily get these false notions of certain kinds of work being less like anyone else's work. But then, I also tend to think about things in a very egalitarian manner, like having janitors get paid the same as CEOs (by flattening the pay grade) for the same company as long as they do their job well. Nobody who's working is going to suddenly enjoy every aspect of their job. There are ups and downs and the idea that one is better than the other I think lacks perspective. What's more important is that the people doing their work actually enjoy it. Though we don't really base society around enjoyment, so (funny how much we talk about it though!).
 
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