People are going to have to be clear about what they think the goal of a built-in fighting game tutorial should be. Should the tutorial simply be a clear and comprehensive explanation of the game's rules and mechanics or should it be geared towards making new players "competitive"?
I'm okay with games having the former and leaving the more in-depth things to the community and youtube videos. What is and isn't useful to know in order to play at a competitive level can change at any moment as players discover things and a game's meta evolves over time. I do think there are ways to more closely integrate community contributions and strategies into a game. Maybe a way for players to make and distribute annotated replays and trials?
I was quite surprised when I learned online mode was utterly broken on PS4 for several weeks. Where was the outrage.
Nice try. Games like Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator have both a great story mode and a fantastic tutorial (best in fighting games imo) while Tekken 7 has a story mode that's worse than no story mode.
The community has always shown they're great at making tutorials/sharing tech and stuff, I'm baffled no company has attempted put these together and make a hub in-game to share combos/tutorials/etc. I always learned best when learning with other people, but for veterans/newbies alike it's kinda annoying have to dig through forums/Tweets/Youtube for tech and tutorials...why not make it more accessible by making it in-game?
"Hey I found this new Ryu combo, here, you can view it as a trial within the game and you can slow it down, play it, attempt it, etc" Have ability to link to Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, etc.
Make it kinda like a FGC Miiverse.
Xrd has a great tutorial but players don't want to do homework to play a game.
Ideally, fighting games would teach players how to play like Mario and Zelda games do: intuitively. The game shouldn't make it obvious you're going through a tutorial.
Of course, I have absolutely no idea how to do that for fighting games.
What I'm getting from this thread is that they should just put Aris in the game to explain everything.
What I'm getting from this thread is that they should just put Aris in the game to explain everything.
I personally don't feel the need to unlock stuff anymore. Maybe a cheesy cutscene but overall I'm good. Fighting games don't do that anymore and it's not what attracts me to them. But then again I'm somewhat invested in the FGC scene so my priorities with what I want out of a fighter have changed.Man Tekken use to be great. The feel of unlocking a character after a long 10 match battle and cheesy cut scene
If they made a fighting game with only one motion - dp, and one button - k would you find me some noobs who could consistently play this one motion stuff from both sides without 'homework'. Actually scratch that - let's go with hcf only.That's a good way to put it. Fighting games still have a problem where learning how to play feels like homework.
No, the reason is nobody cares about Tekken.Well it's Tekken so it's immune to criticism.
Only Capcom games get dozens of negative headlines and threads, that's the rules
What I'm getting from this thread is that they should just put Aris in the game to explain everything.
Have you ever heard of Persona 4 Arena?If they made a fighting game with only one motion - dp, and one button - k would you find me some noobs who could consistently play this one motion stuff from both sides without 'homework'. Actually scratch that - let's go with hcf only.
learning certain mechanics is one thing. Having that info stay with you is another. I picked Josie cuz with her small move set you could easily break down Tekken's fundamentals.
I personally don't feel the need to unlock stuff anymore. Maybe a cheesy cutscene but overall I'm good. Fighting games don't do that anymore and it's not what attracts me to them. But then again I'm somewhat invested in the FGC scene so my priorities with what I want out of a fighter have changed.
Xrd has a great tutorial but players don't want to do homework to play a game.
Ideally, fighting games would teach players how to play like Mario and Zelda games do: intuitively. The game shouldn't make it obvious you're going through a tutorial.
Of course, I have absolutely no idea how to do that for fighting games.
They tried this with Fight Lab in Tekken Tag Tournament 2.
The lesson learned from Fight Lab is that disguising your tutorial as something else means people don't carry the lessons they've learned into regular fights, even if they've demonstrated they understand the concepts.
You can't.
Games like Mario can do that because there's only like 3 options in Mario. This is how the often praised MMX intro level works to. It teaches you by presenting an obstacle in which only one of those options allows you to progress and in the process you learn how it works.
Fighting games can't work like that because not only are there too many options, but solutions to certain situations aren't defined by the developer. How players use tools is up to the players, who can sometimes find multiple solutions to the same situation that the developers never intended nor could imagine. There's no way to teach people that.
Next he should explain why T7 is incredibly shittier to play and has less content/characters compared to TTT2.
Isn't T7 more well-received than Tag2?Next he should explain why T7 is incredibly shittier to play and has less content/characters compared to TTT2.
Isn't T7 more well-received than Tag2?
It is? But.....why? It has orders of magnitudes worse content, and Tag 2 having a tutorial worth a damn made the core gameplay easier to get in to in Tag 2 as well.Isn't T7 more well-received than Tag2?
It is? But.....why? It has orders of magnitudes worse content, and Tag 2 having a tutorial worth a damn made the core gameplay easier to get in to in Tag 2 as well.
It is? But.....why? It has orders of magnitudes worse content, and Tag 2 having a t7torial worth a damn made the core gameplay easier to get in to as well.
I think a thorough tutorial can actually do a decent job of showing people the game's rules and what they should be doing, in a general sense. If you went through all of the various training and tutorial modes in VF4:Evo's PS2 port along with the adventure mode, you're going to have a decent idea of how the core mechanics work along with several core skills (such as juggles, hit confirms, punishing, how throw breaks work, various defensive OSs, etc.). You're not going to win Nationals with that but at that point you have more than enough to work with to play real opponents and be able to do stuff.He's bullshitting but seriously a tutorial isn't going to make you good at fighting games. YouTube and training mode exist.
It really is -- I actually think VF4:Evo's training, tutorial and challenge mode actually hurt the series in the long run, as it was around then when the game really got its reputation for being hyper-technical. It's no more technical than any other solid fighting game (such as Tekken or Guilty Gear), but the home version of VF4:Evo made this apparent in a way that no fighting game did before (or since, really).VF4's tutorial is the perfect "if a tree falls in the forest" example for fighters.
Does TTT2 really have magnitudes of more content? Where? In the endings? (That must have cost a pretty penny to make and typically just get watched on Youtube?) The characters? (TTT2's roster is bloated as all hell with all of the clones) Fight Lab? (Fight Lab was a rather poor tutorial/single player experience, IMO.)It is? But.....why? It has orders of magnitudes worse content, and Tag 2 having a tutorial worth a damn made the core gameplay easier to get in to in Tag 2 as well.
UhNext he should explain why T7 is incredibly shittier to play and has less content/characters compared to TTT2.
I don't see how learning a fighter with your mind set towards online play is ever not going to feel like work. Shit's complicated.
What I don't like about this video is that it asks for tutorials that are breaking the wall of things you need to learn, so you can take time to learn them, memorize them all. Many games already did it: VF4, DOA5U, Skullgirls, even MK9 and Killer Instinct. In Skullgirls you have a tutorial explaining to you that you need to jump over a projectile runing on the ground, a tutorial explaining to you what is hit confirm, etc...
The problem is : nobody likes tutorials that lasts more than 20 minutes. Nobody except for MMOs players like grinding like the video suggests. You could very well put tutorials in story modes (it already exists) but if you are not good enough or don't care because you actually like the story more than the game (hello BlazBlue), you can't continue and you stop playing the game without being able to learn how to play or how the story ends.
Of course we can have tutorials like VF4E and DOA5U where the game explains to you what, why, how. But if you did played them, you know exactly what went wrong : you forgot what you learned one hour earlier, because you didn't practice enough each mechanic the tutorial teached you and because they are too many mechanics. So the solution would be to unlock the next tutorial only if you accept to play one week of footsies so you finally get it ? But who the hell would buy a game and them accept to do this ? It will never happen.
And that's where the problem is: you can't teach fighting game with a one hour tutorial because it takes way too much time. You can give players information about how things works, but that's all. Because you can only learn this kind of game by trial and error, repetition, and by encountering situations you don't know and trying to understand them by reading again the mechanics and taking a step back about what you did.
To me teaching fighting game is like teaching how to drive. You know a wheel turn the car. You know that if you'll go too far in a curve, you'll hit the sidewalk. You'll not turn it enough or too much sometimes. But can you give people 10 hours of class just for the wheel by creating a space where all kinds of turns exists? Nope, you'll teach them the wheel at the same time they'll learn to evaluate the distances, the size of the car, how to watch in mirrors, avoid people, in the real street. The wheel, as well as the engine, the brakes, how people react, how they drive, can't be teach by tutorials/challenges. You have to do it in real life, make mistakes, and having someone near you avoiding you being hurt and explaining to you what mistake you made, why you made it, and how not to do it.
That could fun of course ! But after one hour of lessons, your ego is tormented with your poor skills and you are exhausted by concentration. It's hard, you don't want to do it each day. It's not a game, it's school. You don't "play" school when going back home and put a disk in the console to relax. And that's why people force themselves to drive but not to play fighting games : driving is an essential part of life so you endure expensive lessons, fighting games are just a game you think as something fun that should be automatic and served on a plate, but is actually a new way of thinking by taking other people in consideration, acting with or against other people, controlling yourself in high stress moments. You need a coach and real life lessons to learn fighting games.
That's why League of Legends or Dota2 have so many players. First, real life lessons are free, as the games are free. Characters are way simpler than any fighting game characters and you pass from one to the other once you mastered one. You will fail a lot at the beginning, blame yourself and you team. But you can eventually win if your team is ok, so your ego is restored, you are less frustrated.
Because the most important thing about MOBAs is that since you are not playing only AGAINST people but WITH a team, you'll eventually make a lot of friends faster and learn faster as you can ask for help and among 4 players, you have more chances to have someone explaining things to you and progress. That's the same way you progress when you learn how to drive because the teacher is all yours for one hour of play. In any fighting game because it's one vs one, it's a 3 minute match, and the single person with you is actually your opponent who will not tell you how to play, you can't really learn.
So that's it for me : you can't learn fighting games without actually fighting for real. The game can teach you how to play from a theory perspective, but the only way to progress is fighting a real opponent, not being in a single player mode where you grind, do tutorials you forgot one hour later. Instead of doing tutorial, we should have modes that permits you and your opponent to focus on specific parts of the game. For example, being able to play online without using any special move or super but only normals, having a multiplayer mode where you take turns at attacking and garding. Even a mode where the ultra would be instant kill on touch could be could, as you would have to focus on ways of landing it.
But you always have to be with a human player or a coach sharing with you your lesson.
Skullgirls
Pretty sure Lawbreakers has a bigger install base
Pretty sure Lawbreakers has a bigger install base
Ehh, 2/10Pretty sure Lawbreakers has a bigger install base
I knew Aris was behind this all along.
Tekken not only did absolutely nothing to teach new players but it didn't even come with a manual on PS4 detailing all the systems. I've played Tekken before but I still couldn't remember all the different wakeup options etc. I had to go trawling the internet for old TTT2/T6 guides (the community hasn't documented T7 yet).
Getting kinda tired of companies relying on the userbase to document their games/create some replacement for the paper manuals.
I don't want a collection of assorted videos scattered over different sources. I'm speaking of wikis, system documentation, glossary etc (basically what would be in a manual). All the big sites stop at TTT2 or 6 with T7 sections full of essentially 'TODO'. Is a lot of it the same as TTT2. Probably, I don't know because it's not written anywhere. So yes, there is a shortage of documentation. Day 1 was even worse, there was next to nothing. This is on the developers though, they can't keep leaving it to the community to save a buck.In regards to the bolded, there is a fuckton of info out there on how to play this game, including in the OT here on GAF. If you haven't been able to find anything, then I seriously have to question how hard you were looking.
I just opened up youtube and typed "avoidingthepuddle tekken 7 floor" and got this on the first page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-PDc20Jezg
There is no shortage of information out there right now for this game. Namco Bandai had Markman hook people up for providing tutorials, so you can find tons of character specific guides out there, while Aris' channel explains a bunch of general mechanics.
Hell, I myself have been uploading my streams where I go through a characters whole movelist and explain how the moves work, and when they should be used, like this one for Gigas.