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Hideki Kamiya on PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale: "It's just a ripoff."
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Drugula's Wrath XXX
Banned
You won't be lasting long it seems.
I wonder how many 2D you would consider to be rip offs of Super Mario Bros. or the like. There's nothing wrong with other developers copying something, it is the way the industry has worked for years. As long as there's been improvements to the genre, style or whatever you want to call it I won't heistate to at least try it out and see if I enjoy it.
You should really relax man, at least don't judge a game till you played it first.
MisterHero
Super Member
The initial comment came from a game creator. What any sort of gamers think isn't the issue.
Kamiya not only made the claim, but also gave a reason. Since the reason he gave had nothing to do with playing the game, maybe asking "Did he/you play the beta?" is missing the point too. There's at least 2 other threads for discussing PSASBR gameplay; that's not what this thread is addressing.
Maybe to him, even superficially aping others' hard work just to be successful goes against his game creator morals. Not only is he part of a group that got canned by Capcom and others for not being "successful enough", he's still making games that could be called fringe genres. Why? Because he likes making those kinds of games.
Of all the things the remarks could make him, a hypocrite doesn't exactly fit.
Ploid 3.0
Member
I like the fact that you can only kill with supers, it's balanced around that. You already have to fear losing points from the supers, holding your AP, keeping others from gaining AP, and a lot more. Being able to lose AP from being ringed out would lessen the meter management. Why build AP when can just ring someone out? Being knocked off the ledge in Sandover is enough to mess up your meter gain, all while your opponents are gaining meter and possibly kills.
I thought they were all around the same ballpark of like 3.5-4 million (and God of War 3 also has a year and a half of sales on Skyward Sword.
yeah, you can't do a match with final destination, no items, Sly only if the only way to win is using suppers
yeah, you can't do a match with final destination, no items, Sly only if the only way to win is using suppers
It's like doing this will redeem the fact that it's a ripoff, the thing is they didn't rip it off the right way, if you took all these elements why not the ring outs to ? Supers or Ring outs it would've been the same reaction.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Yeah when you get into fights against just one other person things are very different. You don't have to worry about being interrupted by another guy so you can go to town with the combos. You block more, try evading because the combos can buff up the other guy to the point that he gets his meter to where he wants it. It's like a mind game.
Sometimes in a 4player ffa two people are split to opposite sides of the room which is where my experience comes from. The camera is zoomed way out so I can't wait for the game to be released to have a up close 1v1.
eighty(one)
Member
I could be off base, but there might be a bigger brouhaha made when the offense is committed by first party/manufacturers themselves? Sony made the call to create/publish/finance this game. They need to be able to bear the brunt of the criticisms/allegations/condemnations/comparisons launched at them/this game. They can also rightly accept any praise/compliments/kudos, that come their way. Sony is a multinational corporation (as are Nintendo and MS), whom is able to survive generations of hardware and electronics manufacture.
There are differences when a third party creates a game inspired by other source materials. One difference, is that an inspired* game, might even appear on the system of that which inspired initially.
This entire thread seems to be coming to a bigger head, because it might be symptomatic of Sony and their history of lifting inspiration from Nintendo (and others)....but this seems to be the first time*** a well respected, high profile developer is globally - being blunt and completely honest without an PR mouthpiece.
***(twitter has farther reach than Mikami and his PS2/chainsaw interview on JP radio)
^side note: I like each Ninty, Sony and MS, they each have cool things they bring to each medium.
Drugula's Wrath XXX
Banned
You look like a smart guy, read all my posts you'll understand
I've read a few and sorry kid, it was treading on gamefaqs fanboy wars material. If you can discuss this subject without resorting to picking up your e-weaponry to defend whichever company you think is the best then good, but it sure as hell doesn't seem that way.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Well, it matters insofar as we're having a meta discussion about his comments. Whether you agree or disagree with his assessment of the game being a ripoff or not depends seemingly entirely on one of the following:
1.) Your ideals in regards to how strong a role originality plays in design.
2.) Your first-party allegiances.
As for the "hypocrite" remark, I'm assuming that much of your post was in reference to the poster I quoted and not me, because I've tried to not to really enter the "Kamiya is right!/Kamiya is a hack!" fray.
you apparently missed the one where he admits he's trolling for our amusement
Drugula's Wrath XXX
Banned
Eh whatever, average trolling is too boring to be anything but indifferent to it. Carry on I guess.
staticneuron
Member
The term mascot brawler seemed to have just appeared this year. It never was a genre before. People normally use the term cross over for the description of this type of fighter, but that couldn't be used as an attack against PASBR and removes the idea that nintendo was "first" at something so mascot brawler is used alot recently.
SSB was a fighter that was made unique by having ring outs as the main means for winning and the roster was made up of Nintendo IP. Everything else is subject to genre (fighting) and the only thing that really has people in a bunch is the mascots and the party type play they are pushing (4 instead of 1-on-1).
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
You sound more butt hurt than me about it bring a ripoff. chill out lol
DimmuBurgerKing
Member
He's right.
I still want to play it, but let's not fool ourselves: he's right.
I still want to play it, but let's not fool ourselves: he's right.
TDLink
Member
Jump Super Stars and its sequel Jump Ultimate Stars are the same subgenre as Smash Bros but very different both on a mechanics level and an appearance level. Sony could have tried harder to differentiate their game from Smash like that one did. They want the comparisons though because honestly they will help sales.
blitzcloud
Banned
I honestly despise that model.
OH look, a dude just comes in when I 90% myself a player and rings him out. Nice.
SSB focus is to avoid damage. So people fleeing off the battle is a given, to remain with low percentage.
Here it's do or die. I like that. Sue me.
PS: Although maybe brawl would have not been so annoying if it had a proper smooth online. I remember when I simply dodged and dodged, and the lag input would allow the other player to time correctly the attacks. In singleplayer it works better I guess.
I've always seen this, but doesn't it just mean Smash offers more ways to play since you can play defensively or offensively?
As opposed to always needing to play offensively?
blitzcloud
Banned
Yeah, I clarified that it works better on local mp. Online MP is when it becomes irritating, because of the netcode.
I'm looking at it in the full scope of things. And having a butter smooth online multiplayer will make it last more, community wise.
I kinda like that in this game you're retributed for what you do, and don't take the merit of other players in an opportunist way.
SSB was my most played game on my childhood, since we would gather and play every weekend for hours and hours. However, on melee and brawl, the chance of gathering was kinda removed, so they died fast on me. If brawl had a decent online MP, it would have lasted way more for me.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
You're probably right in the respect that it's a new classification but not an unwarranted one. I mean, we had games like DreamMix TV and Jump Super Stars which would absolutely fall into the category of, "mascot brawler".
Even then I feel you are simplifying a certain type of Smash play.
Like even if I got someone up to 90% doesn't mean someone can just walk over and do one move and take the kill. It's a possibility, but there are ways to defend against it both as the player dealing the damage and the player taking the damage.
And don't get me wrong, I know there is very much a strategy of snaking kills in Smash Bros, but don't think it's any diff than throwing a nade in a fire-fight in a shooter or something.
it is a direct ripoff of smash brothers, just like little big karting and modnation are ripoffs of mario kart and and the move is a direct ripoff of the wii remote. they would not exist without their nintendo equivalent
one of sony's biggest failings this gen (and that's saying something given their level of failure this gen) has been their moronic attempts to ape nintendo, particularly because they've done such a fantastic job of carving out their own identity. they dont need to try an copy nintendo, they're good enough themselves
as for the sony defence force moniker, it is pretty childish but it couldn't be more apt. the worst, most idiotic, delusional and defensive posts i have ever seen on this forum have been in defense of sony and the ps3.
i have seen people on this forum paint the ps3 as a sucess because sony have (and i quote) "money coming in". i have seen people on this forum claim the ps3 will outsell the wii eventually and that "the ps2 won this gen"
such fuckwittery i hope never to see again
one of sony's biggest failings this gen (and that's saying something given their level of failure this gen) has been their moronic attempts to ape nintendo, particularly because they've done such a fantastic job of carving out their own identity. they dont need to try an copy nintendo, they're good enough themselves
as for the sony defence force moniker, it is pretty childish but it couldn't be more apt. the worst, most idiotic, delusional and defensive posts i have ever seen on this forum have been in defense of sony and the ps3.
i have seen people on this forum paint the ps3 as a sucess because sony have (and i quote) "money coming in". i have seen people on this forum claim the ps3 will outsell the wii eventually and that "the ps2 won this gen"
such fuckwittery i hope never to see again
No it's the same as any other fighting game.
Acquiescence
Member
Thank you for being the first to respond to my post with a serious rebuttal, and not some trollish "lolz it's funny but I am unable to articulate why" kind of remark.
Firstly, I never said that PASBR would consist of a 30+ roster. I'm aware that it's confirmed to be 20+, and that a more specific number is rumoured to be around 24. I was merely pointing out that Sony could feasibly arrange a cast of 30+ characters all from seperate firsty-party IPs, if they so wished.
Regarding your list, I was talking strictly first-party, so Solid Snake and Sonic have no bearing here - if we were allowing third-party characters then a cast number could be potentially inifinite in number! Remove those two and you have 15, or 17 if you want to include Yoshi and Wario. I think that's a bit of a stretch personally, but whatever. Now, that list consists of the franchises represented in the third game Brawl, right? So you're comparing the third game in a franchise (Brawl) to the first game in a franchise (Battle Royale). Yet already, it's looking very possible that PASBR will feature a greater number of first-party franchises represented (we've got 10 confirmed), and that in my book is a genuine advantage. It adds more diversity. Is it a "significant" thing? I dunno, but the member I responded before-hand mentioned a limited roster, and I just thought that PASBR's roster is anything but limited.
Are more characters a bad thing? It depends, in my opinion. Clones definitely; secondary characters not so much. But the way I see it, a slot is wasted if it's given to either of those instead of a character from a IP not yet represented. That would explain why so many are vexed at the possible inclusion of Evil Cole in the beta leak thread. If it's confirmed he has his own seperate slot from Good Cole, then that's a disservice to other IPs and the final roster.
TDLink
Member
Oh, absolutely. Nintendo could as well if they wanted though. I mean there are a ton of Nintendo franchises not represented in Smash as of yet (or at least not with a playable character) and likewise a ton of Sony properties mysteriously missing from PSABR.
Well actually if you remove the third parties from both games then Brawl does actually end up having more franchise representation than PSABR (although again, the difference is negligible). Yeah Brawl is the 3rd in its series but you can't actually compare PSABR to a N64 game released 15 years ago. You need to compare a franchise to its current direct competitors.
In terms of diversity, that can definitely still come from secondary characters. For example, sure Smash has both Zelda and Link heralding from The Legend of Zelda franchise but they play completely differently. On the other hand Mario and Luigi are quite a bit more similar and their differences are minor, a similar situation to what could end up happening with Good and Evil cole. Those kinds of clones are obviously just easier to put in with some extra dev time. If Evil Cole didn't exist it doesn't necesarilly mean a better character would have taken his spot, it could just mean they didn't have time to create another full character and thew him in as a bonus. Although, I am just hypothesizing here.
Weltall Zero
Member
I can't be objective on Kamiya's claims, as to me the man is a god. I mean, he made Okami, possibly my favorite single game ever, plus Resident Evil 2, Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta... just too many of my favorite games. He could defend Michael Pachter and I wouldn't be mad at him.
That said, I'm all for more Smash Bros clones. In fact, they're long overdue. Companies didn't take so long to clone Street Fighter 2, and while many of those clones have been deservedly relegated to obscurity, I think it's obvious many others are still remembered fondly, and some even gave back to the genre, inspiring stuff that would be reabsorbed into Street Fighter itself (case in point: Super bars).
The only thing is, this particular Smash Bros clone doesn't appeal to me at all. The characters aren't nearly as charismatic, and the whole thing clashes so jarringly against itself (too many different styles/degrees of realism, as opposed to Smash's distinctive, unifying style). To me it's just as jarring as that Takara DreamMix TV World Fighters game.
The thing is, at this point, I'm not sure if it's so easy to make a Smash Bros clone without Nintendo characters. One I found quite successful, not to mention quite original with a few of its mechanics, was Jump Super/Ultimate Stars (again, because it had an attractive, unified style).
That said, I'm all for more Smash Bros clones. In fact, they're long overdue. Companies didn't take so long to clone Street Fighter 2, and while many of those clones have been deservedly relegated to obscurity, I think it's obvious many others are still remembered fondly, and some even gave back to the genre, inspiring stuff that would be reabsorbed into Street Fighter itself (case in point: Super bars).
The only thing is, this particular Smash Bros clone doesn't appeal to me at all. The characters aren't nearly as charismatic, and the whole thing clashes so jarringly against itself (too many different styles/degrees of realism, as opposed to Smash's distinctive, unifying style). To me it's just as jarring as that Takara DreamMix TV World Fighters game.
The thing is, at this point, I'm not sure if it's so easy to make a Smash Bros clone without Nintendo characters. One I found quite successful, not to mention quite original with a few of its mechanics, was Jump Super/Ultimate Stars (again, because it had an attractive, unified style).
Most of us in the beta thread have been hyped about that the most.
But Peach, Bowser, Wario and Yoshi are also all vastly different characters.
Or Pikachu, Lucario and Pokemon Trainer.
I don't mind using multiple characters from the same franchise, if they come equip with their own unique moves and play styles.
MisterHero
Super Member
There wouldn't be any metadiscussion if people accepted that Sony tagged their video with Smash Bros, and wanted it to pop up when people search for Smash Bros.
If one wants to understand why this one incident grates on so many fans, they can just look years back at Sony's attitude towards Nintendo. They set themselves up to be cooler and more modern alternative to the kiddy gimmick toy company. Sony releasing motion controls/an upgraded Eyetoy would've been tolerable anytime. Instead, they mocked Nintendo and made a cynical reach for the same thing (Sixaxis). While they did fine with having their diverse library of games that weren't Nintendo-like, their fanservice game happens to at least LOOK LIKE a Nintendo game.
The kinds of gamers that post on NeoGAF not only play the games, but absorb the industry media, and have infinite capacity to discuss both. It shouldn't be suprising that some have strong feelings for these companies, and the fandom blame game is getting really old.
Referring to many other posts; I think this thread has shown that a garbage post is a garbage post, despite some claiming to be above behavior like "allegiances" (as if making several ironic parody posts is any better, honestly). People being Sony or Nintendo fans has nothing to do with Sony's Youtube stunt, a more recent of many antics.
Unless someone at Sony was playing a prank, they invited the comparison, that's the truth. It's no console fan's fault, not Hideki Kamiya's fault, just Sony's. If Nintendo did the same thing, it would be their foul-up too.
Hopefully I can exit the thread on this note, it's hard to stop spectating.
Yes, it was referring other posts.
staticneuron
Member
That is a very reasonable response and I would have to agree you may have a point there.
True but almost every crossover fit that definition because the characters are recognizable figures from their respective franchises (sometimes owned by different companies). Battle Arena D.O.N, the capcom vs series, the KOF and many others technically fit the term "mascot" brawlers. But the term "crossover" fits better because Sony technically never had a "mascot" for the PS brand unlike nintendo.
When did this happen because I just looked em up and neither the Official nor the blog posts for the game have that tag.
Lets take this back a bit. One of the reasons you will get no real acknowledgement for the supposed imiations is simply because of when things like the Sixaxis, and the move capabilities were patented and demonstrated.
And Sony may aim at markets that overlap but their main allure is always a more mature crowd. If you compare the games and libraries and find a only a few titles that share passing resemblances then you really shouldn't be so upset.
The truth is that people have already done comparisons and the games really don't seem to have much in common outside of the crossover theme.
Acquiescence
Member
We don't know that yet until we all see Battle Royale's finalised roster. It's got to be 15 first-party characters at least, which would be equal with Brawl, ignoring Yoshi and Wario as spin-offs. We're already on 10, Sackboy and Ratchet & Clank are certainties, and Nariko, Spike and Sir Daniel Fortesque were leaked in the beta. There's got to be more to come - I'll be seriously disappointed if it's just third-party additions after that.
I guess you're right. Even though the N64 was Nintendo's third home console and the PS3 is, unsurprisingly, Sony's third home console, it just doesn't feel wholly fair to compare Battle Royale with the first Super Smash Bros.
I feel quite strongly on this matter. You're right that secondary characters can still offer diversity, but from a personal standpoint, I'm just really resistant to the idea of them featuring in Battle Royale. For every Evil Cole, Sully or Dr Nefarious, there could be a Robbit, Kat or Wander instead. I'd just prefer to see as many different franchises represented as possible - that's my utopic vision of this game. I want to gorge on as much nostalgia and fan service as I possibly can.
Glorified G
Member
22 for us GAF Gold members.
Isn't it bliss?
TDLink
Member
Yes, you are correct. That is essentially the point I was trying to make. While Smash does have some "clones" (Mario/Luigi, Link/Toon Link, CapnFalcon/Ganondorf, Fox/Falco) for the most part secondary characters are pretty unique and those "clones" are kept at a minimum.
Yeah I was including Yoshi and Wario but you are right, the full PSABR roster hasn't been unveiled yet. Any difference in franchise representation anyways is going to be 0-3 at this rate which, like I said, is pretty negligible. In terms of "representation" they are about even there.
I agree that more franchise representation is always better but even more important is gameplay diversity. Hypothetical scenario: If you tell me you can make Jak and Daxter two separate characters with completely different movesets or have Lara Croft and Nathan Drake but they both play pretty similarly, I would prefer to have the more unique moves of Jak and Daxter and then just 1 of Lara or Nate opposed to both.
I really hope Wander makes it in though.
All from an offhand comment Kamiya made on Twitter.
This is the definition of viewtiful.
Glorified G
Member
nvm
sogood.jpg
TDLink
Member
Not exactly but they are close enough. They feel a tad different and mechanically have some small differences, sure. In general they look the same and have mostly the same moves though (albeit it with different properties). To "pros" there is a difference to a casual player it is harder to notice and understandable that people would call them "clones".
TDLink
Member
They share more than two, they are just slightly altered. The fact that luigi's fireball is green and goes horizontal does not make him a drastically different character from mario's which is red and bounces, for example. Yes for people who play the game hardcore little things like that are a big deal but for the casual player it isn't.
Regardless, this is not the topic to debate this sort of thing.
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