• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Homeworld Remastered |OT| All of this has happened before and will happen again

dancrane212

Member
Aug 4, 2011
5,375
1
0
Figured I'd submit a refund attempt just in case my ~15 minute playtime, the state of HW1R and the 60% off sale would outweigh the 14 day requirement. Looks like it does since I just got approval for the refund.

$16 is a much easier price to justify waiting for patches.
 

Bastables

Member
Jan 21, 2014
1,165
0
0
New Zealand
There is no way they can fix the HD HW1, the very nature of of moving ships/gameplay from a physics based game to a table based HW2 game utterly breaks the HW1 ships.

The placement of turrets, their rotation times crammed into the HW2 engine just makes it all a gibbering mess.

Stick to HW1 og and only play HW2 enhanced, HW1 enhanced is a badly botched mod for HW2.

Really sad about how it turned out. It's odd as it's only 1/4 of the content that's broken but the fact that it's the HW1 Enhanced and the two HW1 broken interaction in multiplayer has really killed my will to play the package.
 

Giolon

Member
Dec 5, 2008
8,000
12
865
Bay Area, CA
www.radiantcg.com
From one of the devs earlier today (and the primary one working on fixing formations):

My concern is pretty basic:
•There are players with very strong preferences for HW1 'vanilla' (aka pre-remaster).
•Against everything we said about the remaster before/after release they still expect HW1 engine mechanics.
•This isn't HW1 engine. (we made that very, very clear prior to release)
•Many players of remaster have no basis for that bias (no actual experience with HW1, or indeed no 'muscle memory' about it)...
•Those new players are the ones enjoying the game(s) - and where we got our very happy ratings/reviews from. Because in that context - these games play great, look great, etc.
•Because the remasters are not the classic games, I don't consider the remaster design broken. Period.

Some of you will disagree. On the flip, some will say 'yeah, it's not exactly HW1, but it's still fun, still emotional/epic'. I've ready that in reviews and responses to 'is this any good?' threads over and over. It is a valid (and I would say the predominate) view.
- I'd prefer more players to play the game without a 2nd-hand bias for something they themselves have no experience.

But always, there's a reason a 'vocal minority' is called a 'vocal minority'. They're vocal, and not the majority of players.

That isn't an attempt to minimize the validity of their views - heck, in our case we've been working to address those views in ways that would have never been considered in the past... the nightmares I'll personally have about the formations and strike-groups code & systems will haunt me for the rest of my life. But I also hate that new players are potentially dealing with the most bitter and negative people possible - people who don't bother to think about the other player's perspective. I've heard new customers ask about 'broken formations' - it's frustrating from my perspective because not only do I disagree, but even taking into account the concern - the other player has no context for that, nor is it valid for half of the experience (HW2 campaign). Instead, they're just worried about something with no context to severity or relevance to their direct experience.

I'd rather new players play, form a personal experience, and hopefully grow the fanbase for the game/universe - because that's how we do more of this work and keep updates coming. If we can't do that, if we can't justify more effort and investment - who benefits?

---

I won't begrudge 'purists' their viewpoint or preferences - I want some of what they do, and I am in a position (along with the team) to do something about that. So, we'll get there.

The chat lobby is V1 right now. V2 will rock ya'll. Lots of other stuff is coming as well, and our player base has sky rocketed due to the sale (well over 2000 people right now).

Source
While I am disappointed in some of the gameplay differences compared to HW1R, I do mostly agree with him. The game isn't unplayable by any means. I played through the whole thing and it WAS a lot of fun. Is it 100% the same as HW1C? No, but I'm fine with that.

Where I disagree is his claim that formations being broken is extreme. It's not extreme. They don't work. Ships break formation as soon as they start moving. Formations have near 0 effect on the performance of your fleet or the outcome of battles. It doesn't completely break the game, but it, along with the lack of Tactics behavior modes, does negate one of the essential tactical elements of the original that made it so engaging to so many players.
 

Sijil

Member
Feb 21, 2015
1,351
0
0
To be honest, I've never cared much about formations and aggressive, defensive, passive tactics, Homeworld was always about the story, the atmosphere tied with the scenery, music and the whole saga is why I love Homeworld and the gameplay is nowhere near broken in HWR, perfectly playable from start to finish with the exception of formations. I also replayed HWC and loved both.
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
Jun 7, 2004
36,860
0
1,585
Edmonton
From one of the devs earlier today (and the primary one working on fixing formations):



While I am disappointed in some of the gameplay differences compared to HW1R, I do mostly agree with him. The game isn't unplayable by any means. I played through the whole thing and it WAS a lot of fun. Is it 100% the same as HW1C? No, but I'm fine with that.

Where I disagree is his claim that formations being broken is extreme. It's not extreme. They don't work. Ships break formation as soon as they start moving. Formations have near 0 effect on the performance of your fleet or the outcome of battles. It doesn't completely break the game, but it, along with the lack of Tactics behavior modes, does negate one of the essential tactical elements of the original that made it so engaging to so many players.
The issue is that a remaster is supposed to allow newer players experience an older game in more modern terms. That isn't the case with HW1R, you aren't experiencing Homeworld, you're experiencing Homeworld 2. HW1 and HW2 on the surface may look similar, but they are fundamentally very different games.
 

Portman

Member
Jan 21, 2013
751
0
405
Hopefully they are pleased with it. It seems like they're still supporting it which is a good sign. I haven't played it in a while (some fan I am!) so I can only go off of the notes and posts in here on what they have fixed and added though.

I'm curious what they will do with any profits they make from it such as put them towards Shipbreakers. But I'm wanting to remember them saying that they didn't expect to make much on this (if any at all) since it was more a "labor of love" for them.
 

mantidor

Member
Jul 24, 2009
12,270
6
710
Rio de Janeiro
I overlooked the fact the latest update came with an extra mission, the planetoid in the background is amazing even if it's just decoration, reminds me of the earlier concept for Homeworld 2 and giant derelicts.
 

RE4PRR

Member
Jun 2, 2014
304
0
0
Wait there's people complaining about HW1R?

I thought it was a great game, barring formations that didn't appear to work. HW2R imo is a better game however, mainly because the fighters/corvettes etc you build them as a squad instead of singular, but that's just a pet peeve.
 

A-V-B

Member
Jun 10, 2013
9,759
0
0
Wow, coming in and people still talking about formations not working LONG after release.

Glad I didn't spend money buying a borked version of a game I already had :(

sorry for ya pain bruthas
 

Sijil

Member
Feb 21, 2015
1,351
0
0
Wow, coming in and people still talking about formations not working LONG after release.

Glad I didn't spend money buying a borked version of a game I already had :(

sorry for ya pain bruthas
Meh, formations and ballistics aren't that important to me, the way I see it Homeworld is all about the story, design and atmosphere, those former two issues are secondary. And it's not like the game is unplayable, not by a longshot.
 

Auto-Reply

Member
Sep 1, 2013
7,235
0
0
Meh, formations and ballistics aren't that important to me, the way I see it Homeworld is all about the story, design and atmosphere, those former two issues are secondary. And it's not like the game is unplayable, not by a longshot.
I want to start the game soon, are formations completely gone once a group of ships start moving? What exactly are they doing? Are they just flying in a straight line towards enemies and then bumping into each other once they arrived at their destination?
Do they keep their position when in defense mode?
 

Sijil

Member
Feb 21, 2015
1,351
0
0
I want to start the game soon, are formations completely gone once a group of ships start moving? What exactly are they doing? Are they just flying in a straight line towards enemies and then bumping into each other once they arrived at their destination?
Do they keep their position when in defense mode?
HW2 formations work fine, HW1 formations, sphere, claw, X etc...etc... break after the group attacks an enemy, they don't keep in formation when circling a target and so on. Ballistics was replaced with RNG from HW2. It's all due to engine switch from HW1 to HW2, but a dev has said that they are working on a possible mod to alleviate the issue but no promises that it will deliver.
 

Stevey

Member
Jun 21, 2014
6,274
12
340
36
UK
Another bug that really annoys me is when you dock all your ships at the end of the mission, tell them to stay docked, then the next mission starts and they all autolaunch.
Why the hell cant they fix that?
 

TheTrain

Member
Jan 1, 2013
1,240
0
360
Another update for HW:R today: https://gearboxsoftware.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205281840

Mostly bug fixes and improved support for mods. No further word on the squadron/fighter A.I. & formation re-work yet.

Our wait continues.
What are you waiting for? It's the HW2 engine, accept this change or start a run at the original HW. Unfortunately there will never be a formation update for the remaster [At least we'll not see the HW1 formations and ballistic as they are on the original HW], that's for sure.
It's a great game anyway!
 

mantidor

Member
Jul 24, 2009
12,270
6
710
Rio de Janeiro
Another bug that really annoys me is when you dock all your ships at the end of the mission, tell them to stay docked, then the next mission starts and they all autolaunch.
Why the hell cant they fix that?
Yes!

This one is really annoying.


And to be honest HW1 is kind of broken without formations and ballistics, the game gets either super hard or laughably easy, the balance is completely off. Units like the multigun corvette no longer make much sense in a RNG system, the Kadesh mission has missed all the tension it had. I don't think you can dissmiss the changes, yes Homeworld is also about atmosphere but at the end of the day it's a game and it's gameplay should make sense.
 

Stevey

Member
Jun 21, 2014
6,274
12
340
36
UK
Yes!

This one is really annoying.


And to be honest HW1 is kind of broken without formations and ballistics, the game gets either super hard or laughably easy, the balance is completely off. Units like the multigun corvette no longer make much sense in a RNG system, the Kadesh mission has missed all the tension it had. I don't think you can dissmiss the changes, yes Homeworld is also about atmosphere but at the end of the day it's a game and it's gameplay should make sense.
Yeah it annoys me because the classic HW included with it crashes every so often, and the update has these little annoying things that all add up, making it a real chore to play.
 
Apr 30, 2010
9,709
0
0
And to be honest HW1 is kind of broken without formations and ballistics, the game gets either super hard or laughably easy, the balance is completely off. Units like the multigun corvette no longer make much sense in a RNG system, the Kadesh mission has missed all the tension it had. I don't think you can dissmiss the changes, yes Homeworld is also about atmosphere but at the end of the day it's a game and it's gameplay should make sense.
God I loved multigun corvettes.

"Sir, we're struggling to tag enemy fighters, they keep dodging our fire!"

"Then we need MORE GUNS."
 

Giolon

Member
Dec 5, 2008
8,000
12
865
Bay Area, CA
www.radiantcg.com
HWR does have a dev that's working on rewriting the engine's squadron system to improve formation behavior and tactics of HW1R fighters. I've been following their forum activity since the game released if not daily then weekly. They've been pretty open about what is and isn't being worked on. He also claims to have made a lot of progress on it, but that it was a sizable project. This dev is also did all the mod system changes in the latest patch that he' said he needed to get out the door first. In fact, this work was a precursor to an official mod where they plan to test new Corvette AI that behaves more like HW1C (and a host of other balance changes).

We've been told multiple times that these improvements are being worked on over the last few months. I mean, it's always possible that they're lying, but I'm not operating under that assumption.
 

A-V-B

Member
Jun 10, 2013
9,759
0
0
Meh, formations and ballistics aren't that important to me, the way I see it Homeworld is all about the story, design and atmosphere, those former two issues are secondary.
Then Homeworld 2 should've really pissed you off.
 

Auto-Reply

Member
Sep 1, 2013
7,235
0
0
There was a new patch

A new update for Homeworld: Remastered Collection with be rolling out shortly. Details can be found below. The most recent version is available via Steam and should update automatically when logged in and online. We are continuing to work on additional fixes for known issues and will update accordingly when we have more information.

August 20, 2015

General:

Fixed asteroid collision avoidance on all MP maps making them vastly easier to navigate through.
Fixed a potential memory leak when playing animatics. Fixes to kicking lagging players.
Fixed issues with some CPU controlled Homeworld 1 Resource Controllers not remaining stationary when supporting Resource Collectors.
Addressed an issue where compatibility with some Homeworld 2 Classic Mods was broken after the most recent patch.
Fixed a rare crash in Homeworld Remastered.

Various minor UI fixes:

Added a Drag icon to resize research menu.
The research queue menu item will no longer block mouse input.
1 cost research items were still being displayed in some cases

Modder support:

Changed the name of the "DefenseShield" to "MagneticField" and added new features to it.

https://gearboxsoftware.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205281840
 

mantidor

Member
Jul 24, 2009
12,270
6
710
Rio de Janeiro
After all these new patches I think I'm going to try the campaign again. I know there are no formations yet but there are significant improvements since release. And HW1 campaign is well worth replaying anyway.

I know I give the devs a hard time but I have to give it to them, they have sticked to supporting it and that's very commendable.
 

mantidor

Member
Jul 24, 2009
12,270
6
710
Rio de Janeiro
Well sorry for the DP but I indeed tried recently to start the campaign, and to my surprise shortcuts to formations are actually broken! I'm sorry but this is a deal breaker, I'm extremely disappointed at how they've handled this. Patching some bugs is one thing, completely breaking something as basic as shortcuts for formations make me think they do not really care about them that much. What a disappointment.

Edit: To clarfiy, they are actually aware of this problem, and yet after several patches they still don't fix something as basic as a freaking shortcut? I really hope this isn't their way of trying to make people forget about them.
 

funkypie

Banned
Nov 17, 2013
3,245
0
0
How's the multiplayer? I've only played home world one remastered I thought it sucked ass compared to the original.
 

Giolon

Member
Dec 5, 2008
8,000
12
865
Bay Area, CA
www.radiantcg.com
How's the multiplayer? I've only played home world one remastered I thought it sucked ass compared to the original.
With so much things they still need to fix I haven't even tried it to be honest.
For the past couple months they've been testing out a radical overhaul of the balance and unit behaviors as a mod that's available through Steam Workshop. It's called Official Balance Mod or something like that, though I imagine the population with it enabled is probably pretty small on an already pretty small population.

As a side note, the devs last posted about 2 weeks ago saying:

As a really fast response (still CRAZY BUSY)...
•No update on timing/release - we're pushing hard, have lots of things to show off, plenty is quite broken, etc. Big changes are never easy.
•'Patching' for ships is coming, very likely in this next update. If I get more time I'll improve it, but as it stands now it works, it just isn't super friendly.
•We are all VERY busy right now, lots of irons in lots of fires. Should have something in the near future to show for it though.
 

Emperor Tiberius

Neo Member
Dec 3, 2014
37
0
0
I recently started playing skirms with friends out of the blue. I forget how much I love MP in this game. Adding all the races from HW1, and HW2 makes the game so much more interesting to me. I have a lot more trouble gettin bored with it.
 

Lime

Member
Apr 27, 2008
26,894
0
0
RTS's with a focus on story and like an actual single player campaign that's more than just MP tutorials seem kind of rare. Is Homeworld the best in that subgenre?
yes. This and World in Conflict are such type of games - I consider HW1 to be one of the best in that regard.
 

ArjanN

Member
Dec 7, 2008
16,816
0
0
Netherlands
RTS's with a focus on story and like an actual single player campaign that's more than just MP tutorials seem kind of rare. Is Homeworld the best in that subgenre?
It's up there. I really liked the Dawn of War II Chaos Rising campaign. Starcraft and World in Conflict were also good for that.
 

Lime

Member
Apr 27, 2008
26,894
0
0
So I've been looking up what the status of the patch efforts by Gearbox to fix the Homeworld 1 mechanics and system and it seems there are some good news:

Three hours ago, thisquietreverie broke the worrying dev silence on the GBX forums (under the "Future MP:Beta Patches!" topic) concerning the future patch.

On top of indicating that this will indeed be a large update, he also said that "the Homeworld 2 movement code fought us every step of the way but it now bends to our will (because it was ripped out entirely and replaced)."
And some comments from one of the developers who is fixing the remaster:

I really, really hope everyone is happy with what we end up putting out... it has been SO MUCH work, I can't even begin to explain it. Though, it is likely we'll do a 'dev diary' about this last patch and the insane stuff we had to do... it may help other devs looking to do similar work in the future. Thanks for the kind words though, if it wasn't clear, we're still working for the fans - the chance of this just magically making a bank-busting amount of money is zero...
To be honest, I am probably one of the most talkative people out of choice... And others are silent because they choose to be. Sure the PR/Marketing group does what you'd expect (as is their job) - they define the way we want to approach a market/customers and they attempt to do that... and generally they don't want random developers to say something that would cause trouble. I think that is entirely understandable. If you were on a team busting your ass, getting ready to release a project dozens/hundreds of people had spent years of their lives on - and one guy posts something that creates a huge mess... I doubt you'd be happy. So, there's an element of risk with having developers talking. That said, HW:RM is a very small team, the game is out and has a well defined audience, and our marketing group has shown a tremendous amount of trust in letting us talk without really defining boundaries... well, besides the obvious stuff that is just going to cause legal issues, etc.

But hey, I want the fans to see what we've done, love it, and where they think we can do better, tell us. If I chose not to talk here/forums/facebook - it'd be really hard to support Mod groups, do the technical support I've done, or even really understand what to do next.

We're almost a year after release and still working - that more than anything should tell you how Gearbox feels about the property as well as the fans of that property.
I can't go into details for many reasons... but think HW1 meets HW2 with new (better) stuff in the mix... 'stances'... um well, again, that is a bit hard to explain without releasing the patch. Certainly, in most ways that matter, the game can now play/feel like HW1, a bit less like HW2, and with new stuff which is neither, but is WAY BETTER.

As for Fuel - nobody on the dev team wanted it, including the original guys from Relic that did HW1/HW2. It isn't broken, the team overall just broadly didn't think it added to the game, and was a mistake which HW2 fixed. So will we put it back? Not a chance. For the fans that disagree - you have excellent Mod support and the ability to do 'custom ship' commands now that mean you can go live your dream...
It is the same engine. It has new stuff that makes new things possible. In some cases, HW2 changes, but overall, it is largely the same. Behind the scenes the code is VERY different - but we had to rebuild on top of the code the stuff that made HW2 what it is (multi-ship Squadrons maybe the most obvious example). That said, when you want things to feel like/act HW1, they can more than ever before. And again - the changes go beyond either... some of the ways the systems have been created add new layers to old mechanics, stuff everyone who's tried it is very, very positive about. The goal is happy players - finally after months that goal is looking to be a bulls-eye shot ;)
 

epmode

Member
Jun 7, 2004
28,470
0
0
I couldn't be happier with that news. I was almost positive that the HW1-style mechanics were lost for good. Seemed like too big a job to convert the HW2 engine to support it.
 

Lime

Member
Apr 27, 2008
26,894
0
0
I couldn't be happier with that news. I was almost positive that the HW1-style mechanics were lost for good. Seemed like too big a job to convert the HW2 engine to support it.
We will see - maybe the changes won't be sufficient or some new things will surface and break things.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Feb 10, 2011
13,457
1
0
So I've been looking up what the status of the patch efforts by Gearbox to fix the Homeworld 1 mechanics and system and it seems there are some good news:



And some comments from one of the developers who is fixing the remaster:
This is fantastic news.


Got like halfway though the remaster, but then decided to hold off as it would be a perfect game to play on my Surface Book this year. Glad I made that decision. It will be soo good going back.
 

epmode

Member
Jun 7, 2004
28,470
0
0
We will see - maybe the changes won't be sufficient or some new things will surface and break things.
It sounds like some things will still be a bit different but that line about them completely replacing the movement code has me optimistic. Here's hoping formations are useful again.
 

mantidor

Member
Jul 24, 2009
12,270
6
710
Rio de Janeiro
I don't want to be that guy but I'm dissapointed about the fuel. Overall I agree, it doesn't add much... Except for the Kadesh, but I'll look for mod support as they suggested I guess.
 

Lime

Member
Apr 27, 2008
26,894
0
0
I just hope they also fix strike craft - they have been useless and a waste of money because they get slaughtered by even battlecruisers.
 

Portman

Member
Jan 21, 2013
751
0
405
Good to hear and thanks for the heads up Lime! I had the OST for the original game playing last night while I was finalizing the OT and was thinking to myself how I still need to finish my play-through of the original I started back in 2013. I had avoided the remaster after reading about the issues but this will get me to finally give it a try (some fan I am).
 

Lime

Member
Apr 27, 2008
26,894
0
0
Also, everyone who also got the upcoming Deserts of Kharak should have received a digital artbook in their Steam folder for Homeworld Remastered Collection.

It is a PDF version of the book that came with the Collector's Edition - it contains concept art, the original manual with some (faulty?) re-writes to bridge HW1->HW2, and some other stuff.