It also speaks of a "militia", which Joe Schmoe walking into a wallmart and buying a gun clearly isn't. If you apply the second amendment literal in 2015, that's a problem.
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In 2014, Norway police officers fired two shots, killed no one, injured no one
- Thread starter chadskin
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If you're a male US citizen at least 17years old and not more than 45 years of age you're in the militia. If you're over 45 and previously served in the military, national guard, or law enforcement, you may still be considered to be in the militia. The US Code says so at 10 U.S. Code § 311.
Besides, the US Supreme Court has already ruled that the right to keep and bear arms is not dependent on the existence or organization of the militia. Rather, if anything, the possibility of raising a militia in time of need is dependent on the people's right to arms.
Firelord Chargrilled
Banned
well this thread sure turned out exactly as i expected.. Sigh
I don't believe anyone mentioned executive action, we were referring to hypothetical legislation.
You seem to be referring to the national guard, which is essentially the modern equivalent to a well-regulated militia. I fail to understand why this means everyone has an inherent right to gun ownership.
Supreme court decisions can be reversed much in the same way that the constitution can be amended.
Just so you know where I'm coming from, I don't care if upright citizens want to go hunting or target shooting or whatever; but I also look at the epidemic of gun violence in this country and feel that something must be done. There are so many things that kill people in the US that we have zero control over - but we can actually do something about gun violence if we wanted to.
Statements of what the law is, rather than what people here wish it were? Well, you know what to do ...
I agree ... ending the 'war on drugs' nonsense would go a long way. Take the drug market out of the hands of the cartels and their agent gangs and there's basically nothing to fight for on the streets. We didn't have this murder epidemic in the past (except during prohibition, which is a parallel circumstance) but we always had the guns. Which is causing the problem?
You mean it contains terrible arguments like the US can't be compared to any other place on the planet when it comes to gun violence because it is a super special snow flake, and that people who kill with guns would just kill with something else if guns were not available?
Firelord Chargrilled
Banned
I meant reading uninformed responses from foreigners like below
This made me read up on things here in Germany (~80 million peeps). Wiki linked to some professor who appears to keep tabs on the totals by accumulating any official numbers he can get his hands on.
Basically: In Germany, our police officers shoot mainly at things and animals.
In the last fifteen years they've shot around 7200 rounds per year on average (recent numbers are around 10k per year).
A pretty consistent number of around 100 of them were aimed at or near people, again per year. Half of them were warning shots, and around 10-20 more were aimed at nearby furniture etc.
Which leaves 30-40 shots aimed at people directly, resulting in around 8 deaths on average, and around 20 wounded per year.
Also: Around 1 dead officer from gun wounds caused by criminals every two years on average in the last decade.
Just to add another pile of numbers as reference. Life is rather peaceful in good ol' Germany.
For some reason I'm also falling in love with this flowchart. It just feels so ... German.
Basically: In Germany, our police officers shoot mainly at things and animals.
In the last fifteen years they've shot around 7200 rounds per year on average (recent numbers are around 10k per year).
A pretty consistent number of around 100 of them were aimed at or near people, again per year. Half of them were warning shots, and around 10-20 more were aimed at nearby furniture etc.
Which leaves 30-40 shots aimed at people directly, resulting in around 8 deaths on average, and around 20 wounded per year.
Also: Around 1 dead officer from gun wounds caused by criminals every two years on average in the last decade.
Just to add another pile of numbers as reference. Life is rather peaceful in good ol' Germany.
For some reason I'm also falling in love with this flowchart. It just feels so ... German.
It depicts the various states/stances before an officer fires a shot. Starts with "no weapon", "with weapon, ready to patrol", "aware safety stance", "resolute safety stance", "resolute firing stance" which leads to firing the shot (the arrows on the left indicated by the yellow double-arrow are for point shooting). Leave it to us Germans to make a flowchart out of this.
Yes the problem is deeper than just guns, but guns certainly contribute to it; in fact, I believe they exacerbate it. When trying to correct a problem, we should address every facet of it. Guns shouldn't be absolved of their responsibility.
End the war on drugs? I'm with you. I'm also for gun control.
What is uninformed about those posts? They aren't all written by foreigners and seem about right to me.
Firelord Chargrilled
Banned
haha aren't you cute ?
crime data from the FBI states that Gun homicides account for about 65%-%69 of all murders. If you don't think the majority of that 65%-69% will not turn to more stabbings , blunt object beatings , strangulation , drowning , arson , poison , or explosives then you are straight up foolish.
Every Gun thread i have seen has to bring up comparisons to America when the a specific article or op might have had 0 to do with the U.S. in the first place so it basically turns into a stealth shitting on Americans and its gun culture thread.and i always hear the same excuse "but...but..but.... i hear about a shooting every day/U.S. on the news over here in Europe" So what ?
How about instead of watching the news you inform yourselves and you will realize gun homicides are down 49%-50% since 1990's but the uninformed public is unaware "because reasons." which leads to the general pubic somewhere around 60% of Americans actually fucking believing gun violence is worse then it was 20 years. So its no surprise that most foreigners looking from the outside in and completely clueless because if 60% Americans of believe that bullshit what do you think that would put foreigners lack of knowledge ? 80%? 90% ?
Violent crime decreased across the board since the early nineties. The trend isn't specific to guns and there are numerous hypotheses as to why it occurred.
In any event, it doesn't absolve the fact that the US still has tens of thousands of firearm related deaths every year. Neither should it be a call to inaction.
This is because of all of the horrific mass shootings that happen routinely in the US.
Man these posts are getting even wackier.
First of all, virtually all crime has been dramatically reduced since the early 1990s. This goes to show that our success is not actually due to some special new behavior regarding guns specifically, but some other factor must be involved. There is great debate as to what those factors are (such as the growing average age of Americans, improvement in law enforcement techniques such as DNA and computerization of crime fighting approaches, etc), but that's not the important part of this discussion.
Second of all, a reduction in a rate of crime does not actually speak to whether or not a problem still exists. You hate comparing ourselves to other countries, but it's incredibly instructive whether you like it or not. To wit:
The United Kingdom has 0.4 deaths per 100,000 due to firearms. Its overall homicide rate is 1.0 per 100,000. UK's entire homicide rate is lower than the rate Americans die by gun per 100,000. 1.0 per 100,000 vs. 3.0 per 100,000.
Switzerland, second most firearm country of developed nations, is 0.77 deaths from firearms per 100,000, compared to 0.4 per 100,000 of UK. In simpler terms, the developed nation with the second most firearms has the second highest rate of gun deaths. And the rate is still not as dramatic as America's, because they are much smarter about their approach to guns in the country including training.
Countries which have eliminated or dramatically reduced gun ownership have not once - not even a single time - showed a commensurate increase in murders with other weapons. Instead, what happens is that some standard violent crimes with other weapons might increase a tiny bit statistically (as happened in UK), but the survival rate of people skyrockets. If you believe that this is somehow wrong, you're going to have to demonstrate it with statistics. You're going to need to showcase how this has not consistently been the case.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Is there any country in the world that compares to the U.S? Maybe Somalia?
crimzonflame
Member
No offense but I'd still rather live in the US
Is there anything else you find strongly unappealing about Norway?
So get every civilian over 45 to hand in their guns. It's a start.
The Supreme court verdict you mention is so ass backwards, it's laughable.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Can confirm, it feels good to not ever have to be afraid that someone will want to shoot you, that a police man would shoot you or that a stranger having a bad day would shoot you.
Don't know anyone who was shot, don't know anyone who knows anyone who was shot, never heard of anyone being shot.
I always enjoy people pulling some reasons why it's different out of their ass
Don't know anyone who was shot, don't know anyone who knows anyone who was shot, never heard of anyone being shot.
I always enjoy people pulling some reasons why it's different out of their ass
You should shoot them.
Liabe Brave
Member
Most of them probably would, because most firearm deaths in the U.S. (about two-thirds) are suicides. There are more gun suicides each year than there are total homicides from all causes. Lack of access to firearms would probably not dissuade many suicide attempts (though attempts by other means would possibly fail more often),
thoughthorizon
Member
It's probably the better health care and living conditions, lower crime, less socioeconomic disparity, and better education that are unappealing.
lastplayed
Member
You asked the question, I gave an answer. Sorry if it's not to your liking. Maybe you should invade us and install some freedoms. /s
Phat Michael
Banned
How the fuck are there more guns than people in America? How is anyone ok with this? This shit is fucking absurd and it's so odd from the outside looking in.
neogaffer1
Banned
It's odd inside looking around. There's been a big rush all of the last 7 years as people are paranoid Obama will "take away our guns!!!" It wouldn't be so bad if background checks were stricter--only today NPR had a story about how convicts get other people to buy a gun and go through the background check process for them so that they can own a firearm despite it being illegal. That, plus the fact that it seems that people who are into guns enough to own one tend to own several shows that we have a genuine problem. And it's not just like handguns and shotguns and hunting rifles and stuff, a lot of people own full on semiautomatic rifles too like the AR-15. It's pretty crazy.
I think one of the telling things about this statistics is how often a Norwegian police officer will pull their gun on someone and not fire it. The American cops that have making the news could learn some lessons in restraint.
Well in that regard they're just representing the will of the people
As someone who had suicidal periods in their youth, lack of access to guns absolutely helps. Obviously someone that really wants to kill themselves will find a way, but making sure that it's harder and more messy to do it does make a difference in some cases.
How are any of those responses uninformed?
Graphics Horse
Member
The last one I saw caused more debate about flags than guns.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Do you think having more guns increases or decreases violence? Or no effect whatsoever?
Being stupefied and horrified by a preventable calamity does not equal uninformed.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
As a foreigner, there's one thing I've gotten out of this thread and that is that some Americans have a self-righteousness complex.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
:lol It's always hilarious to me when people act like under some guise of "educating" people. That's not your intent and you're not changing anyone's beliefs.
Hari Seldon
Member
If Sandy Hook didn't cause massive gun law changes than stats about Norway's police sure as shit won't.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Am I correct in assuming you're an American?
If so, how would you feel if a South African told you back in the day: "the situation with the Apartheid just can't be helped.. I'm personally against it but if we haven't been able to change it so far then I doubt we'll see any meaningful progress in our lifetime.. shit's complicated!"
I imagine you'd feel furious.
QuantumZebra
Member
QuantumZebra
Member
I... I truly can't believe you're comparing gun ownership to apartheid.
I mean I don't even like guns. They are literally nothing at all alike.
Yet in Australia it seems to have worked just fine.
I guess it's down to the obsession the US has with its constitution.
Except for the fact they are? Both are terror over innocent citizens
He is not comparing the two. He is comparing the attitude towards changing something difficult.
To be fair Australia is an island making it much harder to smuggle firearms into it
The minorities of Norway are from all over the world. Most from outside of Europe.
Also, most of Norwegians are middleclass/upper-middleclass. The difference is we have a higher living standard.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Get over your shock because I'm not making that kind of comparison. What I am saying is that when 50% of the population is holding on to an antiquated and ignorant belief that is bringing nothing but harm, that the intricate details and individual complexities that make the matter unique and difficult to change tend to be glossed over by the international community, and for good reason. There's no doubt that changing the status quo will be extraordinarily challenging and possibly come at a high price, but that doesn't change in the slightest the fact that it should be changed sooner rather than later and anyone saying otherwise is making up excuses.
Ahh, we've arrived at the point where everything is a comparison and unfortunately never applicable because America is oh so unique. How refreshing.
You don't get to proclaim gun control doesn't work in your country without making even the smallest effort at actually trying to implement it. That's not how this works.
You don't get to proclaim gun control doesn't work in your country without making even the smallest effort at actually trying to implement it. That's not how this works.
Firelord Chargrilled
Banned
all of them
when all you have to offer up is anecdotal evidence based solely around "well i saw it on the news".
thanks for proving my point
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Have you read my other posts?
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Well, gun ownership and American police has killed far more people.
Edit: I can see why the CDC consistently gets turned down down when it seeks funding on gun violence studies. Stats angry up the blood.
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