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[Geneijin]

Since you refuse to let this go despite my assurances it's not relevant my statement on HDR calibration is that, from experience, I don't believe it's possible to properly 100% calibrate an LG OLED for HDR material to any standard at this time due to a combination of poorly implemented and standardised TV tonemappers, poorly mastered HDR metadata in both UHD disks/games (with games tending to be much more reliable on the whole) and a lack of necessary controls in the TV itself that don't cause significant undesired artefacts. The floors of this issue are still shifting, everyone is doing the best they can and mistakes are being made, and then attempts to compensate for these mistakes are making things worse. Eventually it will be sorted out, this discussion and my comments are part of that "working out" process - that's the only reason I'm participating in them, so everyone will have an easier plug and play experience in the future.

With all that said, no combination of settings on either the console OS, in-game brightness settings, or TV controls (even beyond black level) have any impact on my stance or the underlying issue of the game being too dark.

I did let it go. This just goes back to my original question if you calibrated or not. But I never got a straight answer from you. And if you did, have you ruled out the cable since you already isolated the receiver in your chain and made a direct to TV connection? . And given how people tend to use the Cool color temperatures here on GAF that doesn't adhere to BT. 709, I'm skeptical about what picture they're seeing, so I ask the stupid question to eliminate that troubleshooting issue. So if that was ruled out, then it could be something else like a cable or a TV limitation.

Based on your picture despite the fallacies of viewing an HDR image on an SDR display as we both know and all it entails and not even knowing if the PS4 does a native HDR capture or not, which I don't believe it does unless I'm mistaken, then there are a few potential issues that I suspect. One, calibration is off since that's a typical problem with crushed blacks and losing shadowing detail, or two, the cable itself is only a Standard cable, not a High Speed one (HDMI 2.0 allows for BT. 2020 and HDMI 2.0a (?) allows for HDR). The most obvious problem is a calibration issue, but if it's not that, it could be something wrong in the chain (unless you own an HDFury Integral). If your TV isn't automatically detecting BT. 2020 and HDR, then it could very well be a cable issue because if you're using an old cable, the picture basically looks like Dynamic Contrast on. That's all. But we never arrived there. And frankly, my X800D should not look better than your OLED55B6P, which is why I first thought it was a calibration issue.

 

[R0C]

Any news when UC4 HDR patch would be out ?

EDIT - If they would have added support for DriveClub would have been amazing

 

[McSpidey]

Yep. Dude even the reps I work with have bunkered down for a LONG road and say its early and they rep the demos lol. Even when I am consulting with devs this comes out. Your on the mark according to the folks actually doing this as of ...well about 4 hours ago when last I spoke to some of them lol

Thanks for the sanity, it's appreciated.

 

[b0bbyJ03]

On PS4:

RGB range full
HDR automatic
Deep color output automatic

On the TV:
On general settings, turn hdmi ultra HD deep colour on for the hdmi port the PS4 is using

I'm using HDR bright, dynamic contrast- low, color gamut - wide, Black level - high.

Think those are all the important settings.

Thanks! Can't wait to get my Pro. I'll use these settings.

 

[Futurevoid]

Since you refuse to let this go despite my assurances it's not relevant my statement on HDR calibration is that, from experience, I don't believe it's possible to properly 100% calibrate an LG OLED for HDR material to any standard at this time due to a combination of poorly implemented and standardised TV tonemappers, poorly mastered HDR metadata in both UHD disks/games (with games tending to be much more reliable on the whole) and a lack of necessary controls in the TV itself that don't cause significant undesired artefacts. The floors of this issue are still shifting, everyone is doing the best they can and mistakes are being made, and then attempts to compensate for these mistakes are making things worse. Eventually it will be sorted out, this discussion and my comments are part of that "working out" process - that's the only reason I'm participating in them, so everyone will have an easier plug and play experience in the future.

With all that said, no combination of settings on either the console OS, in-game brightness settings, or TV controls (even beyond black level) have any impact on my stance or the underlying issue of the game being too dark.

I'm in agreement despite not using an OLED. It's absolutely overly dark after spending time with it tonight on the KS8000. I had to turn up the in-game brightness to nearly max to defeat the black crush and level the blacks more along the lines of the SDR image. Even then it's still somewhat evident. Dynamic contrast set to low helps a bit further in that regard as well (though I still didn't find it necessary) and I was able to get it looking quite nice after said changes.

No matter the setting on the TV though, taking a screenshot produces an image with completely crushed blacks. A night time scene is nearly impossible to make out any details on HDR.

 

[FyreWulff]

This is almost hammering home my concerns regarding the patches, assuming these are specifically for Pro, then that's an additional 6GB non Pro users are wasting on their hard drives.

It's a launch game, those all had gigantic patches because they weren't set up for delta patching.

Delta patching didn't show up until right before Destiny came out for PS4.

 

[2blackcats]

...my TV is fine. You actually can't raise the brightness on an LG OLED by more than 1-3 points without losing the black level.

Again - look at the PS4 in-game screenshots I posted. this isn't a TV issue, all the TV can do is compensate for what the game is rendering.

The people who are saying this looks fine are most likely using their default TV settings which have Dynamic Contrast on.



I agree with this.

I have to disagree with your screenshot assertion. There's 2 way communication going on there between the ps4 and TV. "Hey this is how I'm going to display this image", "cool here's the image formated for the tv". Some kind of mix up going on somewhere. Especially seeing as loads of people have zero problems with different set ups.

 

[Robot Pants]

Any news when UC4 HDR patch would be out ?

EDIT - If they would have added support for DriveClub would have been amazing

And GTA V
And THE ORDER

 

[Geneijin]

If you guys think it's overly dark, you should really see The Division with Neutral Lighting On and calibrated. I don't see the complaints for Infamous First Light on my display being overly dark. It's basically BT. 1886 gamma instead of 2.2. Replace your cables if you haven't already.

 

[Robot Pants]

If you guys think it's overly dark, you should really see The Division with Neutral Lighting On and calibrated. I don't see the complaints for Infamous First Light on my display being overly dark. It's basically BT. 1886 gamma instead of 2.2. Replace your cables if you haven't already.

I mean turning up the brightness in game all the way worked for me but I don't have an OLED with a true black. It's definitely a very dark game by design

 

[DangerMouse]

Ohh yeah, First Light with HDR is a big difference at first glance unlike TLOU, it looks fantastic on my x8508c, love it that I don't have to tamper with anything, game just discovered my TV is HDR and that's it, Sony done well.

Awesome! My x850c is ready.

Edit: Yeah, if it's the same as the US model (which I think it is) then they enabled it via firmware a while ago once the UHD blu-ray format got finalized.

 

[Geneijin]

I mean turning up the brightness in game all the way worked for me but I don't have an OLED with a true black. It's definitely a very dark game by design

If you've already calibrated your display, you should never have to touch the in-game brightness setting. If it's still too dark for you, then it's either the game's intended image or you prefer a brighter image. It'd be like trying to adjust your gamma like in Diablo 3 Ultimate Evil Edition. It's not something I would suggest if you want an accurate picture because how else will you know how it should look? If your current picture seems too dark for you, experiment with gamma if you willing to invest the time and money into it. Gamma 2.2 is what a lot of people have issues with when a warmer color temperature is suggested. It does tend to look a bit dark, but if you have a light controlled room, gamma 2.4 is brilliant or BT. 1886 if you have a dimly lit room. It's the best of both worlds personally. First Light's Neutral Lighting looks amazing.

 

[Lord Error]

I think the big issue right now is that most dev teams only have one HDR TV to test their HDR implementation on. And since the setting and implementation preferences seem to vary wildly between the sets, problems will happen. I've read that for The Witness they were testing on LG B6, so I assume it will look great on it, but who knows for other sets. Not to mention that there's all these different HDR standards to begin with. I know of one for LCD TVs capable of 1000+ nits, one that's tailored for OLED TVs that are capable of perfect black, and one that's something in between for cheaper LCD TVs, and then there's one made by Dolby that not all TVs support... The whole thing seems like a freaking mess to me right now :\ Aside from all that I had a really hard time seeing any HDR benefits on the demo video footage presented on the LG B6 that I saw in best buy. It looked pretty much like my non-HDR LG OLED when I play some video or a game with vibrant colors on it. Who knows if even that demo setup was configured properly.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Lantern District (southeast, southern island) time of day set to 'Dismal'

DO IT.

Pretty much everywhere looks crazy at 'Night' which also has drizzle and very wet surfaces.

 

[Karak]

Thanks for the sanity, it's appreciated.

Ya no problem. This thread in particular needs it. I was sitting here with the actual tv tech reading him some of the comments while testing the tv's. Though he is from LG so maybe his laughter isn't warranted lol

It will just take a while for the bullshit to be pared down from myths and legends to actual data. Will just take awhile sadly.

 

[CyberChulo]

Alright. I spent about 2 hours playing Infamous Second Son on my 940c. I know what some people are talking about when they say it's too dark. But I don't think it's because of HDR's implementation. If you go to an area where it looks too dark, turn off HDR in the game menu. It's still dark in that area! I forgot that the game still uses the "HDR" effect of when you look at a bright source, other areas of the screen will go dark. That's just how the game was made. I don't believe it has anything to do with wrong settings if your other games in HDR worked fine (at least not for me)

So I played through the night cycle with Fetch and a little after you beat the Stone DUP agent. This game looks phenomenal in HDR! The lights, the neon powers, the color gamut is truly superb.

Any other Sony TV owners agree?

 

[dead monkey uk]

And GTA V
And THE ORDER

Not to de-rail this thread too much but GTA V PS4 Pro patch would be great and would likely push sales of Pro and GTA V.

There are so many games I would revisit if they got a Pro patch. GTA V, Bloodbourne, Resogun and Dying Light are the top of my list.

 

[Geneijin]

Ya no problem. This thread in particular needs it. I was sitting here with the actual tv tech reading him some of the comments while testing the tv's. Though he is from LG so maybe his laughter isn't warranted lol

It will just take a while for the bullshit to be pared down from myths and legends to actual data. Will just take awhile sadly.

What's there left to change outside of BT. 2020, SMPTE 2084, and dynamic metadata then?

 

[SolidusDave]

I forgot that the game still uses the "HDR" effect of when you look at a bright source, other areas of the screen will go dark.

Yeah this. It's basically HDR-effect camera plus HDR on top of it, that's why I keep saying this game has bad HDR implementation.

 

[DirtyLarry]

Reading this thread makes me realize I may very well have to get a new receiver when I finally upgrade to HDR, just like I had to get a new receiver when I upgraded to 4K. These fuckers man.

 

[AndyD]

Reading this thread makes me realize I may very well have to get a new receiver when I finally upgrade to HDR, just like I had to get a new receiver when I upgraded to 4K. These fuckers man.

Yep. No doubt. I thought I would be OK with my receiver I got when the PS3 launched that supports 4k, but there's no HDR support, so really it's time for a new one of those as well.

 

[Geneijin]

Reading this thread makes me realize I may very well have to get a new receiver when I finally upgrade to HDR, just like I had to get a new receiver when I upgraded to 4K. These fuckers man.

Yep. No doubt. I thought I would be OK with my receiver I got when the PS3 launched that supports 4k, but there's no HDR support, so really it's time for a new one of those as well.

Now imagine trying to find an HDMI splitter that can do 4K 60Hz @ 4:4:4 w/ HDR support.

 

[AndyD]

Now imagine trying to find an HDMI splitter that can do 4K 60Hz @ 4:4:4 w/ HDR support.

That is a solution for sure. Cheaper than a new receiver. Or live with optical out of the TV to the receiver, which is sometimes stereo only. Though the KS8000 series (most popular around here) passes 5.1 DD and DTS via ARC, so it's not all lost.

Here's the rtings list of what TVs pass what via optical:
http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/5-1-surround-audio-passthrough?uxtv=e0df

 

[Karak]

Not to de-rail this thread too much but GTA V PS4 Pro patch would be great and would likely push sales of Pro and GTA V.

There are so many games I would revisit if they got a Pro patch. GTA V, Bloodbourne, Resogun and Dying Light are the top of my list.

LOL GTA doesn't need a push. Though admittedly that would be cool. The nice thing is you guys are going to be pleasently surprised by some of the games getting support for this. Luckily many of the devs are keeping very good track of the good and bad implementations lol.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

I did some testing with this game to see if I could get a result like others here. I was only able to test out First Light which I think might be more exaggerated than Second Son when it comes to darkness. Basically I was surprised at the difference different settings could make even with HDR on and it's clear some were causing problems.

Firstly, any type of dynamic brightness or contrast made the image very dark. I believe these effects (on my TV at least) are generally reacting too slowly to the change in values in the game. In First Light when you use your powers it's goes very dark on the edges of the screen and I believe the TVs processing in HDR mode was trying to exaggerate this effect which caused problems but also was doing so too slowly leaving the image seeming darker even after it should return to normal. If I was using the power a lot (which, is the point of the game) the screen would basically never display a proper value, dimming then re-dimming before it had a chance to return to normal. Having this kind of processing active on or high would generally produce an image that was too dark no matter what.

On my set even the dynamic back light (local dimming) would cause trouble and turning it off improved things a lot. Again it was too slow for the games fast change in contrast. I could see this problem in SDR as well but HDR mode exaggerated it.

In general the more processing I could turn off the better image I could get, which is normally what a 'game' mode would do. However, as there are no 'game HDR' modes at this time (this would help a lot) some of the processing that was turned on wasn't really helping.

I'm not sure if others TVs are the same but for me, any kind of dynamic contrast processing caused problems and turning it off helped.

I haven't ever felt like touching the HDR settings on my TV playing a game before so I'll go back and test some others now I've got a feel for it a bit better. However in general I would turn off as much processing as possible for a game console and that seems to basically help here as well. It would be great to see manufacturers add a 'HDR game' mode to TVs now as well.

Hope this can help someone out, I can try and do some more testing if anyone finds it helpful.

 

[f@luS]

Without dynamic contrast on oled it's too dark. Any hdr game + oled need it. I tested gear 4 forza h3 infamous and tlou with dynamic on it looks like the same brigthnesss as hdr off

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

What's all this dark business about? This game is poppin!!

 

[Shin-Ra]

I've spent hours just absorbing powers, neon dashing, shooting smoke like fireworks at night, basking in the dazzling light.

 

[III-V]

This is straight up sexy business in HDR.

 

[Hidden One]

I need videos and gifs now!

 

[SolidusDave]

I need videos and gifs now!

That's not really how this works...

 

[D23]

Playing this on my 65ks8000 and it looks sooo fucking good. I can't wait to try this on the pro now.

Setting:
Ps4-full

HDMI black level-normal
Dynamic contrast-high

 

[Quote]

On a KS8000 I set everything up correctly and thought it looked pretty good. I screwed around for awhile then decided "okay, let's try non-HDR and see how different is looks"

Holy shit, its like turning on a cartoon filter. You can quickly see how few colors it has to choose from. Almost like there is only 1 shade of red, green, yellow ect

 

[DieH@rd]

I need videos and gifs now!

So that you can watch it on a non-HDR 8-bit monitor? No point.

 

[Vashetti]

Firstly, any type of dynamic brightness or contrast

Without dynamic contrast

Dynamic contrast-high

This should ALWAYS be switched off.

 

[f@luS]

This should ALWAYS be switched off.

No no no in hdr it can't. Otherwise you can't get the right picture

 

[Geneijin]

No no no in hdr it can't. Otherwise you can't get the right picture

If it's this option, yes, it should be and I'm not just saying that because of the video but a general thing not to do. Dynamic Contrast is not Black Level in LG OLED settings.

 

[Vashetti]

If it's this option, yes, it should be and I'm not just saying that because of the video but a general thing not to do. Dynamic Contrast is not Black Level in LG OLED settings.

Yup.

 

[D23]

This should ALWAYS be switched off.

Nope. Not.for Samsung ks800 series. Dynamic contrast must be turn on for hdr

 

[Geneijin]

Nope. Not.for Samsung ks800 series. Dynamic contrast must be turn on for hdr

If it's this setting, it shouldn't be either. It's only if you must use Dynamic Contrast, that it's suggested to be on.

 

[D23]

If it's this setting, it shouldn't be either. It's only if you must use Dynamic Contrast, that it's suggested to be on.

Dynamic range on works wonder for me. Didn't give me any crushed black and the color definitely pop and look way better than having it off.

 

[Geneijin]

Absolutely did not use that setting since that's for regular viewing.. not hdr. He had backlight set to 5...

I turn off dynamic range when I'm not in Hdr.

You do realize that individual TV settings are dependent on the TV's environment and its panel, right? There's nothing wrong with a backlight setting of 5 inherently.

Also, I was referring to that option specifically because I wanted to know if it was the same option you were referring to, which it seems to be apparently, and if that's the case, yes, it shouldn't be on for SDR nor HDR judging by what it does to the original image.

Dynamic range on works wonder for me. Didn't give me any crushed black and the color definitely pop and look way better than having it off.

Then it's your preference to use that option, but it's not something you want on for an accurate picture.

 

[Backlogger]

I need to finish this game

 

[pswii60]

Just tried First Light in HDR on my C6 OLED and holy shit, it looks incredible. The street lights, neon signs, reflections etc, mind-blowing stuff. Switching back to non-HDR and the difference is obvious.

Also input lag is not an issue. I switched back between HDR and non-HDR (with game mode) and couldn't feel any difference. As long as you've disabled all the processing (like TruMotion) in HDR mode then it's fine. And with every game having its own option to enable HDR, it means that I can always have it disabled on games where lag is of utmost importance.

But yes, incredible. I mean, all games look incredible just in SDR on the OLED, and this takes it to a whole different level again. So pleased and can't wait for my Pro next week.. it's going to look even better again!!

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

Nope. Not.for Samsung ks800 series. Dynamic contrast must be turn on for hdr

And the JS series needed it on too, without it there's hardly any impact for HDR, only thing I would say is having it on high will clip the shit out of highlights, medium is a great compromise.

 

[Geneijin]

And the JS series needed it on too, without it there's hardly any impact for HDR, only thing I would say is having it on high will clip the shit out of highlights, medium is a great compromise.

If Dynamic Contrast needs to be on for relative HDR performance, then it sounds like the KS8000 has poor HDR performance to begin with.

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

If Dynamic Contrast needs to be on for relative HDR performance, then it sounds like the KS8000 has poor HDR performance to begin with.

Guess that's debatable, but I thought it looked pretty good on my old JS, decent blacks with fairly bright highlights, which is what the desired effect is I guess, and anything in between without making it look blown out.

 

[CyberChulo]

I was also on the verge of getting a 4k receiver to upgrade from my Onkyo 709. But I decided to go old school and break out that TOS link cable. I'm pretending that my PS4 is a Pro and purchased the three items below so I can easily swap HDMI cables between the PS4 connecting directly to the TV and the PSVR breakout box since it doesn't pass through HDR.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

These screens are going to have to get a hell of a lot brighter before resorting to using modes like dynamic is a thing of the past, for instance I've got a Panasonic fald which has a 1350 nit peak, and 800 nit full field HDR capability, and even on this there is only 1 picture mode out of 7 which gives me enough brightness with HDR, dynamic goes brighter but it's a bit too harsh, the other modes which even AVForum recommends for HDR make it very dim, makes me think this TV's arnt tested enough in regards to what actually works best for HDR.

 

[Geneijin]

Guess that's debatable, but I thought it looked pretty good on my old JS, decent blacks with fairly bright highlights, which is what the desired effect is I guess, and anything in between without making it look blown out.

I wouldn't enable Dynamic Contrast because it's equivalent to Dynamic Range Compression for audio. You're clipping information.

These screens are going to have to get a hell of a lot brighter before resorting to using modes like dynamic is a thing of the past, for instance I've got a Panasonic fald which has a 1350 nit peak, and 800 nit full field HDR capability, and even on this there is only 1 picture mode out of 7 which gives me enough brightness with HDR, dynamic goes brighter but it's a bit too harsh, the other modes which even AVForum recommends for HDR make it very dim, makes me think this TV's arnt tested enough in regards to what actually works best for HDR.

If Dynamic Contrast needs to be enabled, it just highlights the shortcomings of the TV honestly. Peak brightness just goes to show how far away the technology is from hitting 100% of HDR. The price of being an early adopter really. It's why the stopgap to calibrating HDR is to calibrate to the capabilities of the TV than the HDR standard because no TV right now exists that can hit it. Even this year's Sony ZD9, which is the closest to that standard in terms of peak brightness, is short. With that said, it's not that the TVs aren't tested personally. The technology isn't there yet and still in development, and buyers need to realize that's what investing in it now means. It's why DCI-P3 numbers sound nicer than BT. 2020. For example, the Samsung KU6300 doesn't even support WCG. Now look what happened this year for 2016 models :lol