• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Interesting finds showing PS4, XB1 and PS3 media plans

Nothing personal jeff, but you really could use to improve your writing style a lot. As it is, your posts are really difficult to discuss, due to them being largely just lists of technology names strung together. It is also way too difficult to try to parse out what point you're trying to make. To be completely honest, I'm not really sure that even you really know what you're talking about, since your writing style is rather reminiscent of business presentations with lots of buzzwords, but little substance.

To put it simply, you focus too much on what the pieces are, and not nearly enough on how they fit together.
First you have to understand that Sony gives NO information out on what their plans are. Second, I've been stating the same thing over and over month after month with stronger and stronger proof. We (royal we) don't put together what's happening in the CE industry and how that impacts the Game Consoles.

We only have the technologies that Sony is using and plans to use to project forward to what features the Game Consoles will have. I've also gotten a little tired of some of the posters criticising when I do speculate on how the technologies can be used. It doesn't help that everyone is moving as slow as they are in implementing these technologies.

So in June 2012 I found the leaked 2010 Xbox 720 roadmap that can be found in it's entirety on Beyond 3d. I state late 2012 that the XB1 and PS4 will be Vidipath clients and servers with DVR support which is what the Xbox roadmap is all about as the 2010 FCC Cable TV DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath mandate spells that out. That Xbox roadmap also applies to the PS4 and the features it discusses are made possible by what was discussed in the 2006 hotchips presentation on who owns the living room which is about sharing media in the home.

Read the Xbox 720 roadmap if you want an easy to understand presentation of Key features. If you want more investigate the technologies Sony and Microsoft developed and are developing, I.E. my posts.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
First you have to understand that Sony gives NO information out on what their plans are. Second, I've been stating the same thing over and over month after month with stronger and stronger proof. We (royal we) don't put together what's happening in the CE industry and how that impacts the Game Consoles.

We only have the technologies that Sony is using and plans to use to project forward to what features the Game Consoles will have. I've also gotten a little tired of some of the posters criticising when I do speculate on how the technologies can be used. It doesn't help that everyone is moving as slow as they are in implementing these technologies.

So in June 2012 I found the leaked 2010 Xbox 720 roadmap that can be found in it's entirety on Beyond 3d. I state late 2012 that the XB1 and PS4 will be Vidipath clients and servers with DVR support which is what the Xbox roadmap is all about as the 2010 FCC Cable TV DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath mandate spells that out. That Xbox roadmap also applies to the PS4 and the features it discusses are made possible by what was discussed in the 2006 hotchips presentation on who owns the living room which is about sharing media in the home.

Read the Xbox 720 roadmap if you want an easy to understand presentation of Key features. If you want more investigate the technologies Sony and Microsoft developed and are developing, I.E. my posts.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This response you just wrote is far more readable than your normal OPs. You should try to apply this sort of format to more of your posts. A holistic view of the situation is generally more understandable.
 

Blanquito

Member
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This response you just wrote is far more readable than your normal OPs. You should try to apply this sort of format to more of your posts. A holistic view of the situation is generally more understandable.

Yet there are those like me who much prefer the deeper, detailed, and more in depth posts because I like to see the technology and terms that are behind it all. It especially helps since most of his posts are sourced with papers and videos that are themselves very dense material.

It's not Jeff's job to make sure you understand what you're reading. It would be helpful if someone (Jeff, or someone else who understand this better) makes a summary post. But that doesn't mean that the whole thread has to be high level and easy to understand.
 
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This response you just wrote is far more readable than your normal OPs. You should try to apply this sort of format to more of your posts. A holistic view of the situation is generally more understandable.
I've already done that several times:

It starts with HTML5 which was ported to the PS3 and Vita late 2012 and Sony for the first time created WebMAF apps which were a combination of C++, Webkit and Trilithium which is a substitute for HTML5 <video> because it hadn't been created yet.

Game Consoles to replace Cable boxes and the connected home starts in 2014

Which leads directly to this: All Playstation Platforms to use Playready which points to a significant PS3 update which I predicted in this post from 2011. Four years later and it looks like it may happen.

Which leads to this: Interesting finds showing PS4, XB1 and PS3 media plans which has a PDF for Sony's Passage which has a diagram showing a PS3 supporting RVU which I speculated in 2011 and was implemented several years later. It also shows the PS3 supporting Vidipath which should be supported this year.

And is supported by this: Hardware for Media Hub features in both the XB1 and PS4 "kinda confirmed"

And this: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray

The central theme is the Xbox Leaked roadmap and I'm just filling in how it will be supported.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Yet there are those like me who much prefer the deeper, detailed, and more in depth posts because I like to see the technology and terms that are behind it all. It especially helps since most of his posts are sourced with papers and videos that are themselves very dense material.

It's not Jeff's job to make sure you understand what you're reading. It would be helpful if someone (Jeff, or someone else who understand this better) makes a summary post. But that doesn't mean that the whole thread has to be high level and easy to understand.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be detailed. I'm saying that it shouldn't just be a list of technologies, and that the overall analysis part needs to be emphasized more.

Also, to be clear, it's not that I don't understand posts, it's that, considering the knowledge I do have, I shouldn't have anywhere near the amount of trouble understanding them as I do. The fact that I have to read through most of his posts 2 or 3 times to figure out what he's trying to say indicates either A) the posts were not written in a very understandable manner, or B) he doesn't really know what he's talking about and is just stringing together buzzwords. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but the fact of the matter is, presenting information in a way not conducive to discussion is generally not a great thing to do on a discussion forum.

tl;dr: It's not the information, it's how it's presented.

I've already done that several times:

It starts with HTML5 which was ported to the PS3 and Vita late 2012 and Sony for the first time created WebMAF apps which were a combination of C++, Webkit and Trilithium which is a substitute for HTML5 <video> because it hadn't been created yet.

Game Consoles to replace Cable boxes and the connected home starts in 2014

Which leads directly to this: All Playstation Platforms to use Playready which points to a significant PS3 update which I predicted in this post from 2011. Four years later and it looks like it may happen.

Which leads to this: Interesting finds showing PS4, XB1 and PS3 media plans

And is supported by this: Hardware for Media Hub features in both the XB1 and PS4 "kinda confirmed"

And this: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray

The central theme is the Xbox Leaked roadmap and I'm just filling in how it will be supported.

Edit: I'll have a proper response to this post later. It would be awkward to type on my phone.
 

Bru

Member
Whenever I hear or read the words 'it's nothing personal' it always sets my teeth on edge. You just know something insulting is going to follow.

To be completely honest, I'm not really sure that even you really know what you're talking about, since your writing style is rather reminiscent of business presentations with lots of buzzwords, but little substance.

To put it simply, you focus too much on what the pieces are, and not nearly enough on how they fit together.

Is there really any need to be so condescending and damned rude? There are many of us here who appreciate the technical information Jeff provides and have zero issue with the presentation.

I'm sorry if I am coming off a little brusque myself. I just felt the barbed nature of your post was unwarranted, especially as Jeff's threads and posts provide such a valuable insight to many of us on the forum.
 
Whenever I hear or read the words 'it's nothing personal' it always sets my teeth on edge. You just know something insulting is going to follow.

Is there really any need to be so condescending and damned rude? There are many of us here who appreciate the technical information Jeff provides and have zero issue with the presentation.

I'm sorry if I am coming off a little brusque myself. I just felt the barbed nature of your post was unwarranted, especially as Jeff's threads and posts provide such a valuable insight to many of us on the forum.
Thanks but I'd rather everyone read and discuss the Xbox 720 roadmap and then try to relate what's in it to what Sony and Microsoft have done so far and how Vidipath fits into what's discussed also.

What's at issue here is not everyone is coming into the thread with the same background information from reading my threads or the blue links. For instance ATSC 2.0's XTV is mentioned more than 10 times...does everyone know what that is? Read this post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=129128660&postcount=120

The Term XTV is so important that Microsoft registered the domain. The Xpad is the second screen and Microsoft thought it so important that they created their own Tablets/Pads.

http://dotweekly.com/domain-movers-xtv-com-domore-com/ said:
xPad? It appears that Microsoft is making a play on the term in some way. Maybe for a tablet? A TV tablet? MarkMonitor used its DNStination Inc. and acquired the domain name xPad.org around September 2010 for an unknown buyer until yesterday when whois changed to Microsoft. At this point, it does not appear Microsoft owns the Xpad.com domain.
Microsoft also revealed they own xTV.com which was acquired with the help of Marksmen way back on March 17, 2010. They have also secured and revealed they own xTV.org.

See the post # 120 above referencing the 2010 leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint.

2010 -----is when the FCC DLNA CVP2 mandate was published
2010 -----is when the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint was written
2010------is when Microsoft applied for the xTv.com domain
2010------is when Microsoft applied for the xPad.org domain

XTV = ATSC 2.0 Xtended TV where a browser can be called from a TV program (comming) which also allows on-line social games instead of commercials .

Notice: DVR, Full XTV support, Media Hub, Online Content, Blu-Ray, Multiple Power modes and two picture below, Native XTV and Video STB..count the XTV and STB references or Microsoft projecting Sony would have a Google TV like OS = XTV and Video STB with search engines.



ATSC 2.0 is an extension to ATSC 1.0 where the OTA Main channel for example, 13-1 will use the Mpeg2 (DVD) codec and sub channels like 13-2 and larger can use Mpeg 2 or h.264 (blu-ray codec). With h.264 the sub channel can support 1080P and S3D. In addition the FCC has created standards for: 1) NRT (Non Realtime Transmission) that can be contained in the video stream or on sub channels to support guides and Movies in a DVR fashion as well as 2) XTV where Java and Javascript programs including addresses to websites are included in the video stream.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Looking back at my posts this morning, I was perhaps a bit unfair. I got a little caught up in the moment, and was a bit too harsh on you. I apologize for that. I still think that your writing style could use more focus, though. You could do a somewhat better job tying things back in to your main point.

To give some responses to what you've said:

I've already done that several times:

It starts with HTML5 which was ported to the PS3 and Vita late 2012 and Sony for the first time created WebMAF apps which were a combination of C++, Webkit and Trilithium which is a substitute for HTML5 <video> because it hadn't been created yet.

You seem a little confused here. The HTML5 video tag definitely not only existed, but also was being implemented into web browsers around when Trilithium was made (though it was still fairly new then). Media Source Extensions and Encrypted media Extensions didn't exist back then, though, and I think that is what you're referring to.

Game Consoles to replace Cable boxes and the connected home starts in 2014

Which leads directly to this: All Playstation Platforms to use Playready which points to a significant PS3 update which I predicted in this post from 2011. Four years later and it looks like it may happen.

Which leads to this: Interesting finds showing PS4, XB1 and PS3 media plans

And is supported by this: Hardware for Media Hub features in both the XB1 and PS4 "kinda confirmed"

And this: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray

The central theme is the Xbox Leaked roadmap and I'm just filling in how it will be supported.

So I think that consoles (at least Sony and Microsoft ones, Nintendo still prioritizes games) being cable boxes is a thing that will likely happen, but it probably won't be a thing that gains mass adoption unless cable companies either stop selling cable boxes or the start selling consoles. Average consumers won't adopt things like this in large numbers unless it's the path of least resistance.

Thanks but I'd rather everyone read and discuss the Xbox 720 roadmap and then try to relate what's in it to what Sony and Microsoft have done so far and how Vidipath fits into what's discussed also.

What's at issue here is not everyone is coming into the thread with the same background information from reading my threads or the blue links.

You really can't expect everyone to come into these threads to be completely informed. That is just an unrealistic explanation.

For instance ATSC 2.0's XTV is mentioned more than 10 times...does everyone know what that is? Read this post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=129128660&postcount=120

The Term XTV is so important that Microsoft registered the domain. The Xpad is the second screen and Microsoft thought it so important that they created their own Tablets/Pads.



See the post # 120 above referencing the 2010 leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint.

2010 -----is when the FCC DLNA CVP2 mandate was published
2010 -----is when the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint was written
2010------is when Microsoft applied for the xTv.com domain
2010------is when Microsoft applied for the xPad.org domain

XTV = ATSC 2.0 Xtended TV where a browser can be called from a TV program (comming) which also allows on-line social games instead of commercials .

Notice: DVR, Full XTV support, Media Hub, Online Content, Blu-Ray, Multiple Power modes and two picture below, Native XTV and Video STB..count the XTV and STB references or Microsoft projecting Sony would have a Google TV like OS = XTV and Video STB with search engines.



ATSC 2.0 is an extension to ATSC 1.0 where the OTA Main channel for example, 13-1 will use the Mpeg2 (DVD) codec and sub channels like 13-2 and larger can use Mpeg 2 or h.264 (blu-ray codec). With h.264 the sub channel can support 1080P and S3D. In addition the FCC has created standards for: 1) NRT (Non Realtime Transmission) that can be contained in the video stream or on sub channels to support guides and Movies in a DVR fashion as well as 2) XTV where Java and Javascript programs including addresses to websites are included in the video stream.

I'm failing to see how XTV is a good thing.

From a marketing standpoint, cable TV isn't exactly in the best state right now, and XTV seems like it would only make that worse that by pushing people away with even more obtrusive ads than what currently exists.

From a technical perspective, it adds complexity where there really shouldn't be any, and, if deployed on a large enough scale, will eventually lead to a situation where random ads can and will ruin your video watching experience through bad code.

Finally, from a security standpoint, allowing broadcasters to run arbitrary code on network connected cable boxes sounds like a great way to distribute viruses.

Is there any benefit that XTV could provide that would outweigh the above concerns?
 
Looking back at my posts this morning, I was perhaps a bit unfair. I got a little caught up in the moment, and was a bit too harsh on you. I apologize for that. I still think that your writing style could use more focus, though. You could do a somewhat better job tying things back in to your main point.

So I think that consoles (at least Sony and Microsoft ones, Nintendo still prioritizes games) being cable boxes is a thing that will likely happen, but it probably won't be a thing that gains mass adoption unless cable companies either stop selling cable boxes or the start selling consoles. Average consumers won't adopt things like this in large numbers unless it's the path of least resistance.

I'm failing to see how XTV is a good thing.

From a marketing standpoint, cable TV isn't exactly in the best state right now, and XTV seems like it would only make that worse that by pushing people away with even more obtrusive ads than what currently exists.

From a technical perspective, it adds complexity where there really shouldn't be any, and, if deployed on a large enough scale, will eventually lead to a situation where random ads can and will ruin your video watching experience through bad code.

Finally, from a security standpoint, allowing broadcasters to run arbitrary code on network connected cable boxes sounds like a great way to distribute viruses.

Is there any benefit that XTV could provide that would outweigh the above concerns?
Good points but they derail what you are asking me to do <grin>...see the problems.

I won't try to justify XTV or chicken and egg issues other than to say that the industry recognizes this and is a reason for most of the Vidipath STBs to support games and media and game sharing over the home network. The 4K digital bridge sharing media over the home network, DVR, USB and Network tuners, Miracast, DLNA modes, XTV and more are features that will be must have. Also ATSC 2.0 is coming to over the air Antenna TV and will pass through to Cable TV so Cable has to support it. Home Shopping Channel is already supporting XTV on the X1 Cable DVR which will of course support Vidipath features and streaming to other Vidipath platforms. The X1 will also stream EA games which is also mentioned for Microsoft in the 2010 Xbox 720 roadmap and with Sony for Playstation Now.

The CE industry will likely all release Vidipath platforms and firmware updates at the same time to share customer education.

XTV is either run as Javascript/webkit or Java calling Webkit support libraries and both will be sandboxed for security. If you look at the Xbox 720 roadmap and understand that Microsoft first brought up security issues in browser code using OpenGL, they understand the issues but still think XTV and XTV tied to second screen phones and tablets will be a much wanted feature. While I can understand your not wanting to take my word that it is a must have feature, you have to think Microsoft and Sony would have a better understanding of the market.

Again go read the Xbox 720 roadmap and look at what the Comcast X1 now supports, for instance, a Guide that is all HTML, Video on Demand based on HTML5 <video>, apps like Picture and home movie share where a Cell phone camera in another state can send live video and pictures to be displayed on your home TV via the X1.

The X1 is using Gnome Mobile Linux and the PS4 and PS3 are using gnome-GTKwebkit APIs. The PS4 with ARM trustzone not having the security issues the PS3 has and a designed from the ground up Browser UI is further along. The PS4 software stack, functionally identical to the X1 should not be a surprise if both are designed to support Vidipath. Vidipath is just a HTML5 app with W3C extensions and a common DRM which allows media to be shared over the home network. The Gnome Mobile software stack and GTK webkit was recognized in 2007 as the most compact and best choice for CE platforms and Sony sent a PS3 developer kit to Collabora in 2007. I posted the following in 2011.

Alp Toker lecture Sept 2007 GTK+ webkit with Gstreamer and Cairo This may have been the lecture that resulted in a PS3 DEV kit being sent to Collabora. Sony may have decided 9/5/2007 to go with the GTK+webkit and were waiting for a Webkit release (March 2011) and Cairo release that supported WebGL (Feb 2011) before porting it to the PS3.

Edit: CEA -2014 Web-based Protocol and Framework for Remote User Interface on UPnP Networks and the Internet (Web4CE) STANDARD published 07/01/2007 by Consumer Electronics Association. The FCC in 2010 mandated that all cable companies must implement it by June 2014. It's been updated to use HTML5 & HTML5 <video> (video element) with CEA-2014B in 2011 and became DLNA CVP2.

Three years ago, this was posted about the above lecture: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2007/12/html5-video-support-in-gtkwebkit.ars
The GTK port of the WebKit HTML rendering engine has gained support for the HTML5 <video> video element. The media backend, which uses GStreamer, was implemented by Pierre-Luc Beaudoin of Collabora. Developer Alp Toker integrated the backend with GTk/WebKit's Cairo graphics pipeline, making it possible for the video content to be embedded in SVG and manipulated with CSS and JavaScript.

Plans for GStreamer-based HTML5 video support in GTK/WebKit were initially revealed by Toker in September, when he published slides from his presentation at LinuxConf Europe.

As some of you may recall, support for the HTML5 video element was implemented experimentally for Firefox back in August.

The GTK/WebKit port appears to be maturing rapidly and offers some unique advantages over Firefox's Gecko rendering engine in certain contexts. GTK/WebKit is lightweight and less resource intensive than Gecko, which makes it a particularly good choice for mobile and embedded environments. GTK/WebKit will also eventually be a very good solution for GTK and GNOME applications that want lightweight embedded HTML rendering.
Collabora developer given PS3 Dev kit Nov 2007
Back at the office I am admiring the PS3 Devkit Sony has sent us, the thing is quite big, but not as big as I feared. Tim will be starting hacking on it in the very near future to see what we can do.

Tim-Philipp Müller Co-founder Collabora Multimedia. He quickly became one of the most prolific contributors to key elements of the GStreamer stack, often taking on the role of ensuring that contributed elements and code reached production level quality.

In his day-to-day work at Collabora Multimedia, Tim often integrates GStreamer into applications and devices,

The X1 uses Gstreamer and the PS3 used AVM+ for IPTV which I think is in the (2008) Trilithium framework but with the Playready port and HTML <video> EME MSE needing to replace any older player this may have changed. The HTML <video> EME MSE requires a player that supports the C-ENC DRM format which is also used by Ultraviolet and Vidipath. Sony did not use Gstreamer in the PS3 because it required disclosing code changes and that is a DRM issue for the PS3 but not for platforms having accelerators and Trustzone hardware (PS4, ARM phones and tablets).

Sony ported Webkit to the PS3 early 2012 with the release of the Vita and started using Firefox's WebMAF for APPS with the webkit instead of Gecko engine (webkit port to WebMAF developed 2009). 4K content owners and the FCC DSTAC recognize that a Signed app is a requirement and Sony WebMAF apps are signed.

Early Rumors were that Sony was going to use Firefox as the browser in the PS3 but this was likely a misunderstanding based on WebMAF.

There is a 7+ year history in what is now being implemented and I have been reading and speculating for the last 4 years with varying degrees of accuracy as I was out of the industry for 24 years...I've somewhat caught up but only have an armchair quarterbacks knowledge which can be greater than some of the professionals only because they need to concentrate on narrow aspect of the industry.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Good points but they derail what you are asking me to do <grin>...see the problems.

I won't try to justify XTV or chicken and egg issues other than to say that the industry recognizes this and is a reason for most of the Vidipath STBs to support games and media and game sharing over the home network. The 4K digital bridge sharing media over the home network, DVR, USB and Network tuners, Miracast, DLNA modes, XTV and more are features that will be must have. Also ATSC 2.0 is coming to over the air Antenna TV and will pass through to Cable TV so Cable has to support it. Home Shopping Channel is already supporting XTV on the X1 Cable DVR which will of course support Vidipath features and streaming to other Vidipath platforms. The X1 will also stream EA games which is also mentioned for Microsoft in the 2010 Xbox 720 roadmap and with Sony for Playstation Now.

The CE industry will likely all release Vidipath platforms and firmware updates at the same time to share customer education.

XTV is either run as Javascript/webkit or Java calling Webkit support libraries and both will be sandboxed for security. If you look at the Xbox 720 roadmap and understand that Microsoft first brought up security issues in browser code using OpenGL, they understand the issues but still think XTV and XTV tied to second screen phones and tablets will be a much wanted feature. While I can understand your not wanting to take my word that it is a must have feature, you have to think Microsoft and Sony would have a better understanding of the market.

Again go read the Xbox 720 roadmap and look at what the Comcast X1 now supports, for instance, a Guide that is all HTML, Video on Demand based on HTML5 <video>, apps like Picture and home movie share where a Cell phone camera in another state can send live video and pictures to be displayed on your home TV via the X1.

The X1 is using Gnome Mobile Linux and the PS4 and PS3 are using gnome-GTKwebkit APIs. The PS4 with ARM trustzone not having the security issues the PS3 has and a designed from the ground up Browser UI is further along. The PS4 software stack, functionally identical to the X1 should not be a surprise if both are designed to support Vidipath. Vidipath is just a HTML5 app with W3C extensions and a common DRM which allows media to be shared over the home network. The Gnome Mobile software stack and GTK webkit was recognized in 2007 as the most compact and best choice for CE platforms and Sony sent a PS3 developer kit to Collabora in 2007. I posted the following in 2011.



The X1 uses Gstreamer and the PS3 used AVM+ for IPTV which I think is in the (2008) Trilithium framework but with the Playready port and HTML <video> EME MSE needing to replace any older player this may have changed. The HTML <video> EME MSE requires a player that supports the C-ENC DRM format which is also used by Ultraviolet and Vidipath. Sony did not use Gstreamer in the PS3 because it required disclosing code changes and that is a DRM issue for the PS3 but not for platforms having accelerators and Trustzone hardware (PS4, ARM phones and tablets).

Sony ported Webkit to the PS3 early 2012 with the release of the Vita and started using Firefox's WebMAF for APPS with the webkit instead of Gecko engine (webkit port to WebMAF developed 2009). 4K content owners and the FCC DSTAC recognize that a Signed app is a requirement and Sony WebMAF apps are signed.

Early Rumors were that Sony was going to use Firefox as the browser in the PS3 but this was likely a misunderstanding based on WebMAF.

There is a 7+ year history in what is now being implemented and I have been reading and speculating for the last 4 years with varying degrees of accuracy as I was out of the industry for 24 years...I've somewhat caught up but only have an armchair quarterbacks knowledge which can be greater than some of the professionals only because they need to concentrate on narrow aspect of the industry.

While a sandbox certainly lessens security concerns to a certain degree, it doesn't come anywhere close to eliminating them. Sandboxes, especially software based ones, can be broken out of. And, as security vulnerabilities found in Google Chrome (for example) haven proven, this is not merely a theoretical concern.

Also, I think that you misunderstood some of my complaints. I don't care how the UIs for the cable boxes are built, so long as it's done competently. My issue is with allowing TV networks to run arbitrary code on the devices, as that introduces pretty big technical and security concerns.

The X1 is using Gnome Mobile Linux and the PS4 and PS3 are using gnome-GTKwebkit .

Specifically regarding this, do you have any evidence that PS4 is using any components of GNOME? I can't seem to find any source on the Internet for this that isn't you.

The PS4 software stack, functionally identical to the X1 should not be a surprise if both are designed to support Vidipath. Vidipath is just a HTML5 app with W3C extensions and a common DRM which allows media to be shared over the home network.

The second sentence here seems to contradict the first one. If Vidipath is really "Just and HTML5 app with W3C extensions" then the exact software stack required to run it shouldn't really matter. Unless the DRM component requires a very specific software environment, that is, which defeats a lot of the benefit of using standards like HTML5.
 
While a sandbox certainly lessens security concerns to a certain degree, it doesn't come anywhere close to eliminating them. Sandboxes, especially software based ones, can be broken out of. And, as security vulnerabilities found in Google Chrome (for example) haven proven, this is not merely a theoretical concern.
So a Root of Trust boot is required and every time a reboot occurs the OS software is returned to a virgin state. DRM code running in a ARM Trustzone protected mode can't be touched by Open world code. Apps that install in the PS4 have to be signed. XTV Javascript and Java are sandboxed. There is a greater chance in your PC being hacked browsing the web than their would be for a PS4 as a Vidipath STB...right?

Also, I think that you misunderstood some of my complaints. I don't care how the UIs for the cable boxes are built, so long as it's done competently. My issue is with allowing TV networks to run arbitrary code on the devices, as that introduces pretty big technical and security concerns.
Add to that that XTV will be used by big corporations and they can be class action sued if they don't protect the chain producing and distributing the XTV app or Web sites.

Specifically regarding this, do you have any evidence that PS4 is using any components of GNOME? I can't seem to find any source on the Internet for this that isn't you.
Gnome-Webkit APIs. You left off the API when you quoted me. For the APIs from four sources; 1) The original 2010 webkit disclosure for the PS3 was a GTKwebkit Javascript engine with GTK script routines for the chrome rewritten and called POSIX, 2) The Sony SNAP developer site no longer on-line, 3) Open Source Disclosures for Sony TVs prior to 2015, 4) The fact that Sony is using WebMAF which is based on Firefox which uses GNOME Mobile to support the Browser. The Sony version of WebMAF uses a Webkit not Gecko engine and uses BSD native libraries that because of licence issues are not Gnome but have Gnome APIs.

The second sentence here seems to contradict the first one. If Vidipath is really "Just an HTML5 app with W3C extensions" then the exact software stack required to run it shouldn't really matter. Unless the DRM component requires a very specific software environment, that is, which defeats a lot of the benefit of using standards like HTML5.
The APIs matter because they must support standards. It's easier to work with an established and popular OS and emulate that. For instance eglib is the embedded version of glib that was developed for Gnome and it's in the PS4 as is Mono. As Glib more than 10 years ago it was designed for Gnome used by Mono and had the GTK (gnome) toolkit as part of it. Glib was extremely valuable to QT, Python, Mono, Lua and a ton of other engines so GTK was taken out of glib to reduce it's size when it is used with other OSs and engines but it still uses the same APIs.

Once you reach the level of the Webkit browser it is supposed to be the same, how the underlying support libraries work is not then a concern. But if you are developing the webkit support libraries then how the GTKwebkit project supports webkit can be a great timesaver. Since the underlying Gnome libraries are on a Linux platform that complies with POSIX standards and Gnome mobile has gone to great efforts to reduce code size, decrease memory moves and has a browser desktop, it is as the article I quoted and it's use in Sony TVs proves it's worth as a starting point for APIs. That it was also chosen by Cable Labs and Comcast as the RDK for Vidipath and the X1 is another point in it's favor...bugs found by Cable labs or Comcast for Gnome APIs are also something that Sony would need to fix.

Technically just removing the GTK chrome or rewriting the Chrome routines and renaming it POSIX makes it not Gnome but all the other webkit support libraries and APIs remain the same so I still consider it GTK gnome. For example, you want to call a file dialog box...you use the same code to do this but the dialog box may not look the same because you changed the GTK SVG script. The file dialog box is supported by POSIX APIs for accessing the OS hard disk routines so that doesn't change. All that changed is the look of the "Chrome".
 

ksdixon

Member
I'm sorry, what does this all mean?

PS4/X1 will have cable tv 'apps'?
How does this affect that recently announced 'PS Vue' TV subscription service?
 
I'm sorry, what does this all mean?

PS4/X1 will have cable tv 'apps'?
How does this affect that recently announced 'PS Vue' TV subscription service?
Consider the XB1 and PS4 hardware and software designed to be the one box in your living room that does it all including being a Cable box or an Antenna TV Media Hub supporting ATSC 2.0. It will support Over The Top (Playstation Vue) and Antenna TV at the same time or Cable TV limited lineup and Playstation Vue or any number of other schemes and mixes. This has been known or rumored since late 2010 and in June 2012 with my finding the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint confirmed as it has "TV Operator" a value prop which was taken as using a SKU of the Xbox. https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/microsoft-roadmap-the-xbox-720-and-more-leak.52805/





What we see on the Comcast X1 will be supported by the PS4 and XB1. What's coming when we see bonjour as part of the PS4 OS is connecting to other platforms on the home network and sharing services and data. For instance, you want to sync your phone contact list or log to the PS4, you use bonjour. Bonjour was not part of the original software released with the PS4...it's new but since I haven't been looking at the PS4 intellectual property lists after every firmware update I can't say when it was included. I think there are two other new notices in the intellectual property list. When I get time I'll look them up.

EDIT: Vidipath uses DLNA and UPnP for discovery while one of the DSTAC proposals is for a Webpage advertised on the local Network which could use Bonjour for discovery.

If we can be sure that Sony is following the same roadmap, and I am as sure as I can be, then Sony will support Music CDs as the Xbox roadmap has them supporting CDs. For other features, think what would make the PS4 or XB1 the one box needed for media entertainment AND VOIP, SKype or ooVoo, calendar, Contact list, Activity log, notebook, Family corkboard notices passing messages and Pictures/movies between family members (like Facebook and including Facebook) and more.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
So a Root of Trust boot is required and every time a reboot occurs the OS software is returned to a virgin state. DRM code running in a ARM Trustzone protected mode can't be touched by Open world code. Apps that install in the PS4 have to be signed. XTV Javascript and Java are sandboxed. There is a greater chance in your PC being hacked browsing the web than their would be for a PS4 as a Vidipath STB...right?

Add to that that XTV will be used by big corporations and they can be class action sued if they don't protect the chain producing and distributing the XTV app or Web sites.

I'm going to rephrase this in a way that (I hope) can't possibly be misinterpreted: The mere existence of the ability of broadcasters to run arbitrary code on the device is a security risk. The mere existence of the feature actually brings the security risk pretty close to that of "your PC being hacked browsing the web". Web content in a desktop browser is typically sandboxed to some degree, and yet those still have security vulnerabilities.

Gnome-Webkit APIs. You left off the API when you quoted me. For the APIs from four sources; 1) The original 2010 webkit disclosure for the PS3 was a GTKwebkit Javascript engine with GTK script routines for the chrome rewritten and called POSIX, 2) The Sony SNAP developer site no longer on-line, 3) Open Source Disclosures for Sony TVs prior to 2015, 4) The fact that Sony is using WebMAF which is based on Firefox which uses GNOME Mobile to support the Browser. The Sony version of WebMAF uses a Webkit not Gecko engine and uses BSD native libraries that because of licence issues are not Gnome but have Gnome APIs.

You seem to be confusing libraries like GTK and glib with a full GNOME environment. Sure, those are necessary for a GNOME environment, but they aren't really sufficient for one. They are general purpose libraries that, while originally developed for GNOME, can also be used outside of a full GNOME environment. With only those two libraries, it's really better to just refer to them specifically by name.

Also, for what you're referring to "library" is generally more appropriate than "API". API is technically correct, but implies that this stuff is more implementation agnostic than it really is.

To address these points speifically:

1) The original 2010 webkit disclosure for the PS3 was a GTKwebkit Javascript engine with GTK script routines for the chrome rewritten and called POSIX

I can find some evidence that the PS3 webkit port was likely based on the webkitgtk port so I'll give you this one. I didn't look particularly deeply though, because the Webkit build system seems odd and complicated and I don't have time to figure it out right now. However, 1) as mentioned above GTK != GNOME and 2) What the fsck is "called POSIX" supposed to mean in this context?

2) The Sony SNAP developer site no longer on-line

I brought that up over at archive.org, but I can't find what you're talking about. The closest thing I found was GNUStep, which is definitely not GNOME. Am I just looking at the wrong date, or is what you're referring to in one of the missing sections?

3) Open Source Disclosures for Sony TVs prior to 2015
See note on libraries above. I'm also not entirely sure how this is relevant to the conversation, because Sony using software on their TVs doesn't really have much to do with Sony using software on PlayStation. Sony is rather infamously segmented internally.

4) The fact that Sony is using WebMAF which is based on Firefox which uses GNOME Mobile to support the Browser. The Sony version of WebMAF uses a Webkit not Gecko engine and uses BSD native libraries that because of licence issues are not Gnome but have Gnome APIs.

Firstly "GNOME Mobile" was more of an initiative than an actual piece of software. I think there was a specific software stack associated with it, but Firefox definitely doesn't depend on the whole thing. Secondly, I can't find any reference to a non-Sony WebMAF. Thirdly, You can't just completely replace the rendering engine a browser application uses and expect it's dependencies to stay the same. Lastly, I'm rather curious what "BSD native libraries that because of licence issues are not Gnome but have Gnome APIs." refers to.

The APIs matter because they must support standards. It's easier to work with an established and popular OS and emulate that. For instance eglib is the embedded version of glib that was developed for Gnome and it's in the PS4 as is Mono. As Glib more than 10 years ago it was designed for Gnome used by Mono and had the GTK (gnome) toolkit as part of it. Glib was extremely valuable to QT, Python, Mono, Lua and a ton of other engines so GTK was taken out of glib to reduce it's size when it is used with other OSs and engines but it still uses the same APIs.

Once you reach the level of the Webkit browser it is supposed to be the same, how the underlying support libraries work is not then a concern. But if you are developing the webkit support libraries then how the GTKwebkit project supports webkit can be a great timesaver. Since the underlying Gnome libraries are on a Linux platform that complies with POSIX standards and Gnome mobile has gone to great efforts to reduce code size, decrease memory moves and has a browser desktop, it is as the article I quoted and it's use in Sony TVs proves it's worth as a starting point for APIs. That it was also chosen by Cable Labs and Comcast as the RDK for Vidipath and the X1 is another point in it's favor...bugs found by Cable labs or Comcast for Gnome APIs are also something that Sony would need to fix.

Technically just removing the GTK chrome or rewriting the Chrome routines and renaming it POSIX makes it not Gnome but all the other webkit support libraries and APIs remain the same so I still consider it GTK gnome. For example, you want to call a file dialog box...you use the same code to do this but the dialog box may not look the same because you changed the GTK SVG script. The file dialog box is supported by POSIX APIs for accessing the OS hard disk routines so that doesn't change. All that changed is the look of the "Chrome".

First, just a small error I wanted to correct:
Glib was extremely valuable to QT, Python, Mono, Lua and a ton of other engines so GTK was taken out of glib to reduce it's size when it is used with other OSs and engines but it still uses the same APIs.

You have it backwards, glib was separated from GTK.

Now, to address your main points: The PS4 is already different from most embedded devices since it uses BSD and not Linux as the base for its OS. It's software stack will necessarily look somewhat different due to that.

Also, as I said above, calling something a GNOME application just because it uses glib or GTK seems misguided at best.

Also, the way you talk about POSIX implies that you don't really know what it is. POSIX is a standard API that is implemented by Unix-like systems, and what it does is not even comparable to GTK. It is a way for applications to interact with the operating system, not a way for them to draw windows to the screen.

When it comes down to it, of course Webkit is going to be chosen for these devices as Gecko isn't as easy to embed in other applications (unless you build them with XUL), and Trident is closed source. But really, these are all implementation details which have little to nothing to do with whether a platform will support a browser based application. The fact that you seem so hung up with them implementing things in a very particular way seems really odd.
 
I

I can find some evidence that the PS3 webkit port was likely based on the webkitgtk port so I'll give you this one. I didn't look particularly deeply though, because the Webkit build system seems odd and complicated and I don't have time to figure it out right now. However, 1) as mentioned above GTK != GNOME and 2) What the fsck is "called POSIX" supposed to mean in this context?
GTK=GNOME, if it doesn't have the GTK toolkit then it isn't GNOME. QT is nearly a clone of GTK but has a different toolkit and minor differences in the APIs to call that toolkit but both can use the same libraries that were part of Gnome Mobile. The difference is primarily about the LOOK of the Chrome.

Linux, Unix, Windows to name a few, are POSIX OSs and can use the same libc. Sony using the same APIs as GTKwebkit but changing the LOOK and calling it POSIX is what? A recognition that Linux and BSD Unix are both POSIX?

Firstly "GNOME Mobile" was more of an initiative than an actual piece of software. I think there was a specific software stack associated with it, but Firefox definitely doesn't depend on the whole thing. Secondly, I can't find any reference to a non-Sony WebMAF. Thirdly, You can't just completely replace the rendering engine a browser application uses and expect it's dependencies to stay the same. Lastly, I'm rather curious what "BSD native libraries that because of licence issues are not Gnome but have Gnome APIs." refers to.
Already posted on this. WebMAF = Mozilla Application Framework in Detail Proof => https://www.linkedin.com/pub/ian-arundale/28/167/640 "PlayStation® 3/PlayStation® 4 (WebMAF/Nuanti Webkit)"

The PS4 Plex app is a signed WebMAF app. store.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/#!/en-gb/apps/plex/cid=EP4544-CUSA01703_00-WEBMAF000000PLEX

http://www.nuanti.com/gecko-to-webkit said:
This report chronicles some of the community work we've done at Nuanti to restore and enhance functionality in GNOME applications that were limited by the Mozilla Gecko browser engine.

In some cases, the issues were severe enough that the applications were dropped by distributors, leading to popular and successful software failing to reach end-users &#8212; a worst-case scenario for any Open Source project.

For each of these applications, Nuanti engineers were available to replace (or assist in replacing) the faulty Gecko component with WebKit GTK+, restoring full functionality as well as introducing new capabilities and enhancing application performance.

Now, to address your main points: The PS4 is already different from most embedded devices since it uses BSD and not Linux as the base for its OS. It's software stack will necessarily look somewhat different due to that.

When it comes down to it, of course Webkit is going to be chosen for these devices as Gecko isn't as easy to embed in other applications (unless you build them with XUL), and Trident is closed source. But really, these are all implementation details which have little to nothing to do with whether a platform will support a browser based application. The fact that you seem so hung up with them implementing things in a very particular way seems really odd.
Again WebMAF uses the GTKtoolkit and Sony changed some of the SVG script for the GTK toolkit but otherwise uses the same APIs or Sony couldn't use WebMAF. They always planned this from before 2010 and maybe by 2007 right?

Hung up on how they do it..perhaps but that is part of what I find interesting. If you don't then skip those parts of my posts.
 

SpotAnime

Member


Jeff's posts are always like listening to Art Bell at midnight, but I still appreciate the amount of technical evidence presented and the process in which he comes to his conclusions.

But with every reply and "clarification" I do start to feel like Alice falling down the rabbit hole.
 
And yet, I can't play a CD in my PS4. Also, two year wait for a media remote.
There are two things delaying ALL media apps:

1) Media needs to run on low power hardware which in the PS4 is the ARM SoC as Southbridge. That is also the ARM Trustzone DRM secure SoC and nearly all media enters that SoC encrypted and exits HDCP encrypted. All players and routines for players like CD must run entirely in that SoC. I Think Sony for justifiable security concerns only does this in Japan. Hardware acceleration for encryption and codecs is via Xtensa processors and there is no example code for Sony to follow to support most of the media features.

2) DRM like Playready requires all media be parsed for Metadata to determine if it is encrypted or compressed and requires all DRM rules for media be followed. This is not something that can be done piecemeal.

To give us a DLNA feature Sony created a Temporary Player that runs on the APU and does not contain DRM. Did you want them to include temporary CD support?

I'm guessing that Sony will include CD support and possibly include Ripping CDs to hard disk similar to what the PS3 does. It is not possible to DRM protect music as it exits a receiver as an Analog signal that can be recorded and there is no other way to produce music except through speakers that have those analog connections. They will find some other way to make money on the music like charging for Metadata or higher resolution greater dynamic range multi channel music.

Two year wait for a Media remote is obvious, they were waiting on enough media support for a media remote to be practical. That the media remote is being released October just a few days before the Paris show likely means that a Firmware update supporting a ton of new media features is coming at about that date. That may be Firmware 4.0 as in 4K media on the PS4. Sony did something similar with the PS3 with firmware 3.5 supporting Flash server 3.5 features for Hulu IPTV and I think 3D blu-ray support....a Media firmware update.
 
Just got an email that Comcast will be cutting support for it's Xfinity app on Xbox 360.
Not sure why, or if there will be a replacement.

Any ideas on what this means for future XB1 or PS4 support?

With the news of Comcast getting into game streaming coupled with this it may signal them going their own way.

Thoughts?
 
The PS3 and PS4 will be Vidipath clients as shown in the OP. This means:

1) A major browser update is coming.
a) WebMAF can support more features but Sony has to wait for GTKwebkit APIs to be created for those new features.
b) It must support XTV apps so all platforms that support XTV must have the same level of browser support at a minimum and the same Java support at a minimum.
c) Support for Vidipath also requires a ton of support for other features.

2) The goal for the PS4 and XB1 is One Box that does all ...a Media Hub and game hub
a) remote Game streaming from the XB1 and PS4
b) ATSC 2.0 support for Antenna TV and then Cable
c) DVR and Tuner support
d) can be used as a cable box and can be a Vidipath server
e) Will be a 4K blu-ray player
f) support the 4K blu-ray digital bridge and stream to the home network

All the above except 4K support and the detail (webMAF) in how apps are created in the PS3 & PS4 is in the 2010 Xbox roadmap. Still no-one is discussing this but me?
 
Just got an email that Comcast will be cutting support for it's Xfinity app on Xbox 360.
Not sure why, or if there will be a replacement.



Any ideas on what this means for future XB1 or PS4 support?

With the news of Comcast getting into game streaming coupled with this it may signal them going their own way.

Thoughts?
Thanks for having a media related post.

Xbox 360 can't support the full range of ATSC 2.0 features and thus the coming Vidipath, (has no Network standby, 1080P, S3D) (according to the leaked Xbox 720 roadmap). Without Network standby it can't support Emergency messages when off which is a FCC requirement and can't Answer incoming Skype like calls when off. The PS3, PS4 and XB1 can do this. Can the Xbox 360 support HEVC and a browser at the same time?

The Xbox 360 limitations were also a reason the Xbox 361 was mentioned as being released in 2012 in the same Xbox 720 roadmap (first date of the FCC Vidipath mandate delayed by Tivo suits). The PS3 at release could support everything (but low power modes) but was horribly expensive as a result.




From the OP, Sony started porting Playready to the PS3 just 6 months ago and has plans to support Vidipath on the PS3. This gives them millions of STBs for Playstation Vue and those PS3s can be moved from the living room to other rooms in the home and be used as Vidipath STBs and remote Game and Media play from the PS4.
 

m@cross

Member
Great, now my right eye is twitching and my nose is bleeding...

I do find it encouraging to see Sony still actively involved in this sort of technology. With their struggles in home entertainment (Consoles aside), I was thinking they might become irrelevant there. Partnering with a giant corporation like Comcast is a good sign, hopefully they get some solid revenue here.
 

blastprocessor

The Amiga Brotherhood
For example: The PS4 is going to be a 4K blu-ray player with firmware update.

I want to believe but even it was true it would need to be HDMI 2.0a i'm reading is required for some HDR implementations (and there are different HDR standards just like sound).

I know PS4 support 30fps 4K support using PlayMemories.
 

m@cross

Member
I'm not an insider but I've been posting on the obvious and not so obvious with varying accuracy at about 80% and greater than most professional authors. I always cite and sometimes I can be mislead by industry papers who are themselves inaccurate like with HBM (high bandwidth 3D stacked memory) being ready for the PS4 launch.

For example: The PS4 is going to be a 4K blu-ray player with firmware update.

1) All modern blu-ray drives can support 3 layer and the panasonic tweak to 33 GB/layer
2) The PS4, XB1 and AMD Kaveri have Xtensa accelerators that can support HEVC
3) 4K blu-ray requires a HDMI 2.0 port which has a faster clock than HDMI 1.4 and has to support HDCP 2.2 and be firmware updatable. The PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip and a picture of it shows the pins all exposed and traces not embedded inside the board. Everyone missed this fact and what it means. The video has to be HDCP encrypted before it leaves the PS4 Southbridge...same for the HDMI chip in the newer PS4. This allows for a simpler HDMI chip that just needs to pass through HDCP negotiations to Southbridge. The only reason for doing this is to support HDMI 2.0's HDCP 2.2. Obvious but Professional writers stated the original PS4 wouldn't support being a 4K blu-ray player.

I appreciate your effort to dig into these things, even if it might glaze a lot of eyes. Generally we find hints at the truth and blatant statements of it, when we look into technical details and white paper documents on these topics. It is obvious both companies are not full of idiots and they didn't develop their hardware thinking only 12 months ahead of time. It seems your posts indicate a lot of decisions and technology where up in the air during hardware development, so it seems common sense they needed to keep options open for what might develop.

Sony announced the PS4 would support 4k video before the system launched, seems they need standards and technology to stabilize before they finalize the path to it for the PS4. Things are taking shape finally, so that appears to be coming to fruition soon.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of this is why they might be waiting to announce a new hardware update spec. Trying to maximize the update instead of just adding the bigger HD. Hopefully they where smart and made sure they wouldn't need a new spec to enable this support, would piss of earlier adopters.
 
Great, now my right eye is twitching and my nose is bleeding...

I do find it encouraging to see Sony still actively involved in this sort of technology. With their struggles in home entertainment (Consoles aside), I was thinking they might become irrelevant there. Partnering with a giant corporation like Comcast is a good sign, hopefully they get some solid revenue here.
Vidipath is world wide and multiple US cable companies signed with Sony to use Passage. I just used Comcast because they created the RDK and have been leading on Vidipath implementation.

Vidipath in China is part of why the Game Consoles are now allowed in China and the district they are first sold in has advanced Cable TV and Internet and is ready to implement DLNA CVP2.

m@cross said:
Sony announced the PS4 would support 4k video before the system launched, seems they need standards and technology to stabilize before they finalize the path to it for the PS4. Things are taking shape finally, so that appears to be coming to fruition soon.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of this is why they might be waiting to announce a new hardware update spec. Trying to maximize the update instead of just adding the bigger HD. Hopefully they where smart and made sure they wouldn't need a new spec to enable this support, would piss of earlier adopters.
1) PS4 is Feature-proved" means they have a list of coming features with the hardware designed/proved to be able to support those features.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
GTK=GNOME, if it doesn't have the GTK toolkit then it isn't GNOME. QT is nearly a clone of GTK but has a different toolkit and minor differences in the APIs to call that toolkit but both can use the same libraries that were part of Gnome Mobile. The difference is primarily about the LOOK of the Chrome.

No. This is wrong. GTK and Qt are graphics toolkits. Both are components of their desktop environments (GNOME and KDE, respectively), but they do not constitute the desktop environment on their own. An application intended for the full desktop environment would typically pull in several other libraries as well.

Also, Qt is NOT "nearly a clone of GTK". The two libraries, while similar in purpose, are very different both in the way they are implemented as well as the APIs through which applications interact with them. GTK and Qt aren't even implemented in the same language. GTK is C, while Qt is C++. Sure, they share a few libraries, but if you look deep enough, most programs rely on some sort of commonly used library. That isn't a reason to put them in some ill-defined bucket, which, by your definition, would probably include the vast majority of Linux software.

Also calling Qt a "clone" of GTK is rather amusing, considering that Qt started development a full 5 years before GTK did. Qt had it's first stable release around the same time GTK was being conceived.

Linux, Unix, Windows to name a few, are POSIX OSs and can use the same libc. Sony using the same APIs as GTKwebkit but changing the LOOK and calling it POSIX is what? A recognition that Linux and BSD Unix are both POSIX?

Wrong again. Windows is not a POSIX compliant OS and has no native support for POSIX APIs. It instead implements the Win32/Win64 APIs. There are various ways of getting POSIX compliant applications to work on Windows, but those all involve using outside libraries to implement the POSIX functionality.

Using the same implementation of the C standard library across every single platform typically doesn't really happen, but it doesn't really need to because the C standard libraries are all pretty standardized at this point.

POSIX is a standard which, in short, describes the way that a both software and, to some extent, users interact with a "Unix-like" operating system. It is essentially an attempt to make all Unix-like OSes behave in a vaguely consistent manner.

Replacing WebkitGTK APIs with POSIX ones makes absolutely no sense, since the two don't implement anything resembling the same functionality. What you're actually trying to say in this instance probably just has something to do with Sony replacing some components with their own code. I'd need more/better details to be more specific.

Already posted on this. WebMAF = Mozilla Application Framework in Detail Proof => https://www.linkedin.com/pub/ian-arundale/28/167/640 "PlayStation® 3/PlayStation® 4 (WebMAF/Nuanti Webkit)"

The PS4 Plex app is a signed WebMAF app. store.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/#!/en-gb/apps/plex/cid=EP4544-CUSA01703_00-WEBMAF000000PLEX



Again WebMAF uses the GTKtoolkit and Sony changed some of the SVG script for the GTK toolkit but otherwise uses the same APIs or Sony couldn't use WebMAF. They always planned this from before 2010 and maybe by 2007 right?

I don't really find your logic in this case particularly convincing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your main argument for this being originally based on Firefox is the fact that Mozilla Application Framework happens to abbreviate to MAF, which is part of the name WebMAF. You then claim that Nuanti ported it to Webkit. This doesn't really make much sense. For one thing, the main reason why you'd want to use the Mozilla Application Framework, XUL, is not only completely unavailable on Webkit, but it is generally contradictory to making web apps and would go almost completely unused in something like WebMAF. The Mozilla Application Framework is meant to build desktop applications that use Gecko to render their UI using the XUL toolkit. It is not really made for web apps. Also, Nuanti does more than just port applications from Gecko to Webkit. They also do a lot of work on and with Webkit itself, so it's not unreasonable that Sony might contract them to help with their web application framework.

Unless you can provide stronger evidence to the contrary, it seems that WebMAF was likely based on Webkit from the beginning, and the similarities in naming are purely coincidental.

Hung up on how they do it..perhaps but that is part of what I find interesting. If you don't then skip those parts of my posts.

If this stuff is so interesting to you, then you should really take the time to get to know a lot more about it. Your current understanding of software is clearly lacking.
 

HF2014

Member
ok jeff_rigby.Tried reading this thread and some other that were post. I honestly dont understand anything you are saying, but you really know what your talking about. Impressive.
 
QUOTE=Pokemaniac;175782849
1) Your right POSIX compliance is not the same across all the platforms I stated.
2) I've already been corrected in my stating that using Gnome libraries like glib makes an application (Mono) Gnome and now you are telling me I'm wrong in stating that only using the GTK toolkit makes the application Gnome. More than 10 years ago prior to when GTK was taken out of glib, it was said that any application that depends on glib was Gnome.
3) Over the 4 years I've been posting on Webkit in Playstation platforms I've also been corrected by Massa and androvsky because I thought gstreamer was part of it...again gstreamer has a license that requires posting a DIFF file and for the PS3 that creates DRM issues which is the same issue for Google's Android and the reason the Playstation platforms use bsd unix

Replacing WebkitGTK APIs with POSIX ones makes absolutely no sense, since the two don't implement anything resembling the same functionality. What you're actually trying to say in this instance probably just has something to do with Sony replacing some components with their own code. I'd need more/better details to be more specific.
What I said is that they changed the GTK toolkit SVG script. If you understood what that means you wouldn't have misunderstood my statement: "Sony using the same APIs as GTKwebkit but changing the LOOK and calling it POSIX is what? A recognition that Linux and BSD Unix are both POSIX?". The blue link is an old post of the DIFF file for a GTK webkit chrome popup menu converted to a Posix theme Chrome popup menu. The Webkit licence requires Sony to publish the DIFFerence (changes they make to the Webkit port for the PS3).

I don't really find your logic in this case particularly convincing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your main argument for this being originally based on Firefox is the fact that Mozilla Application Framework happens to abbreviate to MAF, which is part of the name WebMAF. You then claim that Nuanti ported it to Webkit. This doesn't really make much sense. For one thing, the main reason why you'd want to use the Mozilla Application Framework, XUL, is not only completely unavailable on Webkit, but it is generally contradictory to making web apps and would go almost completely unused in something like WebMAF. The Mozilla Application Framework is meant to build desktop applications that use Gecko to render their UI using the XUL toolkit. It is not really made for web apps. Also, Nuanti does more than just port applications from Gecko to Webkit. They also do a lot of work on and with Webkit itself, so it's not unreasonable that Sony might contract them to help with their web application framework.

Unless you can provide stronger evidence to the contrary, it seems that WebMAF was likely based on Webkit from the beginning, and the similarities in naming are purely coincidental.
I said there were rumors in error that Firefox was being ported to the PS3 most likely because Sony was planning to use MAF.

MAF can use XML instead of XUL and the PS3 XMB is XML using OpenVG. Cairo had not been created when the PS3 was released. The XMB may be converted to use Cairo and may also be a browser UI just like the PS4 after the Playready port...the advantages would be seen only if the entire PS3 application side is rewritten.

I was initially not sure WebMAF was based on the Mozilla Application Framework until I found the developer using it and his detailing the VERSION of MAF. WebMAF = Mozilla Application Framework in Detail Proof => https://www.linkedin.com/pub/ian-arundale/28/167/640 "PlayStation® 3/PlayStation® 4 (WebMAF/Nuanti Webkit)"

WebMAF/Nuanti Webkit means using the MAF version based on Nuanti's webkit port. Which as you say from the beginning (2012) use by Sony was based on the Nuanti Webkit port of MAF. Nuanti webkit port of MAF uses the GTK+ toolkit.

The discussion started because I stated that Sony is basing the Browsers on GTKwebkit using the APIs and changing the look of the toolkit and naming it POSIX. I stated as one of the proofs that WebMAF is being used. Another proof is the Webkit disclosure diff files that Sony has to file to use Webkit.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26160947&postcount=141 There are clearer DIFF files indicating GTK+ in the disclosures which have not changed since 2012 for the PS3.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27024165&postcount=269
 
01010101010101001010101010101010101010100100010101010101001010111110010101010101010010100100100101010010101010010100101001010101001010100101010010100100001010010101010010100101001010101001001010010010100101010010100100010010100101

Anyone want to tell me what it all means in straight up simpleton terms?
 
Anyone want to tell me what it all means in straight up simpleton terms?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=175607364&postcount=113

DLNA® Announces 3.0 Certification Program and Updated Guidelines

DLNA has created a tiered Certification Program giving CE companies more options for certifying.
DLNA 2.0 and 3.0 Certification is open today; plans for DLNA 4.0 Certification are being developed.
Latest Guidelines improve interoperability by eliminating differences between media formats for mobile devices, PCs, TVs and set top boxes. Guidelines now support compression technology for Ultra-HD TV content while improving energy efficiency for Certified products.

Support for the High Efficiency Video Codec (HEVC) video compression standard: This media format profile reduces bandwidth requirements of Ultra-HD video content streams that are delivered to consumers via a media gateway or set top box for viewing on Ultra-HD TVs. By providing this standards-based solution for streaming Ultra-HD TV content, the DLNA Interoperability Guidelines enable users to view content on multiple devices in the home with four times the resolution of today&#8217;s typical full HD 1080p formats.

Improved power efficiency: The low-power mode already described in Part 10 of the Guidelines is now mandatory for Mobile Digital Media Server (M-DMS) and Digital Media Renderer (DMR) devices.
Digital Media Player (DMP)/Digital Media Renderer (DMR): DLNA Guidelines now mandate that all DMPs are also DMRs. This ensures a more consistent user experience as consumers demand more flexibility in where they play their content.

IPv6: DLNA has extended the home network&#8217;s functional components beyond the IPv4 Suite to include support for IPv6, the most recent version of the Internet Protocol (IP). This will ensure that DLNA devices will continue to function as more and more networks transition to IPv6.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
QUOTE=Pokemaniac;175782849
1) Your right POSIX compliance is not the same across all the platforms I stated.

I think my previous phrasing was a little bit unclear. Windows is not POSIX compliant. Period. There are libraries that allow for easy porting of POSIX compliant applications to Windows, but those are essentially just wrappers for Win32.

2) I've already been corrected in my stating that using Gnome libraries like glib makes an application (Mono) Gnome and now you are telling me I'm wrong in stating that only using the GTK toolkit makes the application Gnome. More than 10 years ago prior to when GTK was taken out of glib, it was said that any application that depends on glib was Gnome.

While I don't fully know what the situation was back then, I can assure you that, from a modern perspective, GTK, glib, and Qt are all very easy to separate from their desktop environments.

3) Over the 4 years I've been posting on Webkit in Playstation platforms I've also been corrected by Massa and androvsky because I thought gstreamer was part of it...again gstreamer has a license that requires posting a DIFF file and for the PS3 that creates DRM issues which is the same issue for Google's Android and the reason the Playstation platforms use bsd unix

There are some differences in exactly what is covered depending on the license, but the modified code is typically made available in it's entirety. Based on that people can use tools like "diff" (that's actually the name of the program) to produce diff files to show what changed.

What I said is that they changed the GTK toolkit SVG script. If you understood what that means you wouldn't have misunderstood my statement: "Sony using the same APIs as GTKwebkit but changing the LOOK and calling it POSIX is what? A recognition that Linux and BSD Unix are both POSIX?". The blue link is an old post of the DIFF file for a GTK webkit chrome popup menu converted to a Posix theme Chrome popup menu. The Webkit licence requires Sony to publish the DIFFerence (changes they make to the Webkit port for the PS3).

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26160947&postcount=141 There are clearer DIFF files indicating GTK+ in the disclosures which have not changed since 2012 for the PS3.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27024165&postcount=269

I meant to address the SVG thing before, but I forgot to do it. So, I suspect you're probably using the term SVG wrongly here, but I'll let it slide because I don't really want to go digging through Webkit source code right now. For reference SVG is a markup language which shares a lot syntactically and semantically with HTML. The biggest difference between the two is that SVG describes images, while HTML describes documents.

Regarding that link, you really should have posted that sooner. Based on those diffs, it looks like Sony essentially made their on port of Webkit. As for why they called it POSIX, it was probably a naming convention thing. The PS3 and PS4 are running pretty standard BSD to my knowledge, and the diffs you posted generally indicate that they replaced the GNU/GNOME libraries with their own implementations which were built to run on BSD, so they probably just went with "POSIX" to be representative of that. They probably should have called it "BSD" if they were going down that route, but that's a different discussion for a different time.

I could probably come up with a more detailed analysis from looking at the full diffs, but that is not something I want to spend huge amounts of time doing right now.

I said there were rumors in error that Firefox was being ported to the PS3 most likely because Sony was planning to use MAF.

MAF can use XML instead of XUL and the PS3 XMB is XML using OpenVG. Cairo had not been created when the PS3 was released. The XMB may be converted to use Cairo and may also be a browser UI just like the PS4 after the Playready port...the advantages would be seen only if the entire PS3 application side is rewritten.

I was initially not sure WebMAF was based on the Mozilla Application Framework until I found the developer using it and his detailing the VERSION of MAF. WebMAF = Mozilla Application Framework in Detail Proof => https://www.linkedin.com/pub/ian-arundale/28/167/640 "PlayStation® 3/PlayStation® 4 (WebMAF/Nuanti Webkit)"

WebMAF/Nuanti Webkit means using the MAF version based on Nuanti's webkit port. Which as you say from the beginning (2012) use by Sony was based on the Nuanti Webkit port of MAF. Nuanti webkit port of MAF uses the GTK+ toolkit.

The discussion started because I stated that Sony is basing the Browsers on GTKwebkit using the APIs and changing the look of the toolkit and naming it POSIX. I stated as one of the proofs that WebMAF is being used. Another proof is the Webkit disclosure diff files that Sony has to file to use Webkit.

I don't think what I said last time really got through, so let me rephrase this a bit. Everything that makes the Mozilla Application Framework different from just plain web apps is lost if you're not using Gecko. What Sony built is just a web application framework for use on Playstation. It doesn't appear to really be any different in design or purpose from something like Nintendo Web Framework. You are just trying to connect the two things because you see "MAF" in the names of both. Just as there is no real relation between Java and Javascript, there is probably no real relation between MAF and WebMAF. This is especially likely because the special functionality of MAF would be largely useless in a game console environment.

Also, you can't just say you can replace XUL with XML. XML is just a general format. You need to explicitly name an XML based program or language. OpenVG is generally irrelevant to this discussion, as it has no inherent ties to XML.

Cairo had not been created when the PS3 was released.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_%28graphics%29 said:
Keith Packard and Carl Worth founded the cairo project for use in the X Window System.[19] It was originally (until at least 2003) called Xr or Xr/Xc. The name was changed to emphasize the idea of a cross-platform library to access display server, not tied to the X Window System.[20] The name cairo derives from the original name Xr, interpreted as the Greek letters chi and rho.[21]

Emphasis mine.

As a general rule, you should probably do at least some sort of fact checking before you claim something "wasn't created yet". I think this is the second or third time I've called you out on this.
 

Blanquito

Member
Just wanted to say, that I'm really loving the discussion you're bringing out Pokemaniac. I was pretty aggressive against your first post because it didn't add to the conversation, but all of your posts since have been useful and insightful. Thanks.
 
Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(graphics)

Keith Packard and Carl Worth founded the cairo project for use in the X Window System.[19] It was originally (until at least 2003) called Xr or Xr/Xc. The name was changed to emphasize the idea of a cross-platform library to access display server, not tied to the X Window System.[20] The name cairo derives from the original name Xr, interpreted as the Greek letters chi and rho.[21]


Emphasis mine.

As a general rule, you should probably do at least some sort of fact checking before you claim something "wasn't created yet". I think this is the second or third time I've called you out on this.
Your right, I should be careful with the wording and not rely on impressions I got from reading over the last few years.

Cairo has been around in various forms for years but hasn't been in a form that could be used in an embedded platform like handhelds and Game consoles till sometime after 2007. IBM got involved with Cairo in 2004....the problem is how Cairo is supported under Xwindows was too CPU and memory intensive for an embedded platform. Remember, at that time there was no such thing as webkit2 (web workers) and parallel processing was a new idea.

OpenVG is a 2D backend for SVG and OpenGL is NOW a 3D backend for Cairo and Xwindows is depreciated. Cairo can also do SVG script but the Cairo 3D ability is what makes it suitable to support a browser "Canvas". While the PS3 XMB being XML supported by SVG/OpenVG can't support a browser "Canvas", it is less resource intensive and didn't require Xwindows at the release of the PS3.

Google solved this Xwindows problem for Android's Skia in 2009 and I cited it in 2011 for how I though Sony would do it for Cairo on the PS3. Sony used their Phyre game engine to provide the support for Cairo, or at least the routines needed for the PS Store as OpenGL was either too resource intensive at that time or a security threat. To this date the browser for the PS3 is not accelerated and I think the same is true of the PS4. That is another thing that should change at least for the PS4.

Work has been done in reducing the overhead needed by a backend that supports Cairo. Vulcan may be what Sony was waiting on for their consoles.
Designed to be used in a wide variety of devices including mobile, desktop, consoles, and embedded platforms

We forget or didn't know the issues with OS libraries for a console released in 2006..there have been a ton of advances to support Embedded = Handheld that will benefit Game Consoles. Sony can rewrite the App side of the PS3 to support what the PS4 is going to support and they might do so considering both the PS3 and PS4 use WebMAF and to support Vidipath must use the same HTML5 browser features and same DRM.
 
Rumor: MS launching Xbox One Mini without blu-ray drive in October (Truckloads of salt)

To support IoT and XTV the XB1 will need Java which is also needed for use with blu-ray and to support reduced Data Caps, it needs HEVC which blu-ray also needs for 4K blu-ray. The XB1 and PS4 will be 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge to stream blu-ray (1080P and 4K) movies over the home network so I don't think the rumor is about a XB1 without blu-ray drive. Microsoft is releasing Playready 3 and Playready ND this October which support playing and streaming 4K blu-ray. Playready ND will also support the XB1 as a DVR to a Xbox 360 Mini and other Vidipath platforms which is in the Playready ND whitepapers and in the Leaked Xbox 720 roadmap and recently confirmed coming for the XB1.

So for a less than $20 savings Microsoft releases a XB1 without blu-ray that eliminates CD, DVD, Blu-ray, 4K blu-ray, Game Disks and Digital bridge which ties into the connected home sharing of Games and Media over the home network. I don't think so as the Xbox 720 roadmap features the XB1 as a Media Hub supporting the other platforms in the home including handheld that don't have drives.

So if it's not a Xbox one Mini what is it? A rumored Xbox 360 mini?

http://www.vgleaks.com/microsoft-xbox-roadmap-2013/ said:
The &#8220;Xbox Mini&#8221; is not a 360 add-on, it is a stand alone product that contains Xbox 360 functions for gaming, and alone it is meant to compete with Apple TV. Since it is likely it will not have a disc drive, it is being designed with &#8220;always online&#8221; in mind, and with internet being required for Live functions. Xbox 360 Games can be played on it by purchasing Games on Demand on Xbox Live (for new purchases) or if already purchased, simply download it. This also applies to music and movies. To further clarify, the Durango will also have these (TV) functions, just with next-genration gaming hardware instead of Xbox 360 at a higher price.

When used with Durango, it offers connectivity with it for backwards compatibility with both disc based and On Demand games, and it&#8217;s no more different than what Sony will be doing with Gaikai for playing PS3 games on PS4, only with Xbox it will be done locally and not through the cloud.
It was supposed to come after Windows 10 and likely will be a Vidipath Client too.

The current version of the Xbox 360 can't support the full range of ATSC 2.0 features and thus the coming Vidipath, (has no Network standby, 1080P, S3D) (according to the leaked Xbox 720 roadmap). Without Network standby it can't support Emergency messages when off which is a FCC requirement and can't Answer incoming Skype like calls when off. The PS3, PS4 and XB1 can do this. Can the Xbox 360 support HEVC and a browser at the same time?

The Xbox 360 limitations were also a reason the Xbox 361 was mentioned as being released in 2012 in the same Xbox 720 roadmap (first date of the FCC Vidipath mandate delayed by Tivo suits). The PS3 at release could support everything (but low power modes) but was horribly expensive as a result.



Read the 2012 column with the understanding that, it's delayed, Xbox 361=Xbox mini and it's talking ATSC 2.0, Vidipath and Cable TV downloadable security scheme.



Windows Weekly they were explicitly told right after the event that they are "working on" PC to Xbox one streaming and also Xbox 360 streaming of some kind.and it's at about 47 minutes.

Xbox360 streaming to PC and Xbox 1 with current hardware is about as possible as the PS3 doing the same. You can't stream AAA games as encoding takes performance and memory that AAA games use. If they are actually going to stream AAA games from a Xbox 360 then a Xbox 361 or Xbox mini as rumored coming after Windows 10 is likely

The Xbox Mini price is suggested to be USD $149 (£97, AUD$141) or lower,
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this. I didn't have much of a chance to browse GAF towards the end of last week, and am still catching up right now.

Your right, I should be careful with the wording and not rely on impressions I got from reading over the last few years.

Cairo has been around in various forms for years but hasn't been in a form that could be used in an embedded platform like handhelds and Game consoles till sometime after 2007. IBM got involved with Cairo in 2004....the problem is how Cairo is supported under Xwindows was too CPU and memory intensive for an embedded platform. Remember, at that time there was no such thing as webkit2 (web workers) and parallel processing was a new idea.

It is definitely quite possible that Cairo was too resource heavy back then. I don't know a huge amount about that particular project's history, so I can't confirm it myself, but that is definitely plausible.

However, using X11 in a device like the PS3 to begin with doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. X11 is window system, and I'm not really sure why you'd use that on a game console where everything is fullscreen all the time. It just seems wasteful in general.

OpenVG is a 2D backend for SVG and OpenGL is NOW a 3D backend for Cairo and Xwindows is depreciated. Cairo can also do SVG script but the Cairo 3D ability is what makes it suitable to support a browser "Canvas". While the PS3 XMB being XML supported by SVG/OpenVG can't support a browser "Canvas", it is less resource intensive and didn't require Xwindows at the release of the PS3.

Google solved this Xwindows problem for Android's Skia in 2009 and I cited it in 2011 for how I though Sony would do it for Cairo on the PS3. Sony used their Phyre game engine to provide the support for Cairo, or at least the routines needed for the PS Store as OpenGL was either too resource intensive at that time or a security threat. To this date the browser for the PS3 is not accelerated and I think the same is true of the PS4. That is another thing that should change at least for the PS4.

Work has been done in reducing the overhead needed by a backend that supports Cairo. Vulcan may be what Sony was waiting on for their consoles.

We forget or didn't know the issues with OS libraries for a console released in 2006..there have been a ton of advances to support Embedded = Handheld that will benefit Game Consoles. Sony can rewrite the App side of the PS4 to support what the PS4 is going to support and they might do so considering both the PS3 and PS4 use WebMAF and to support Vidipath must use the same HTML5 browser features and same DRM.

Some thoughts on the above:
* OpenVG is a backend for vector graphics, which includes, but is not limited to SVG. SVG is a markup language which describes vector graphics, and is typically used with static images. SVG does have some hooks for scripting and general dynamicness, but I'm not sure I'd believe that it was used for the XMB without evidence.
* X11 isn't really deprecated, per se. People are trying to build alternatives for it currently, yes, but calling X11 deprecated before those projects are finished is a bit premature.
* Cairo had multiple non-X11 backends when the PS3 released. There's a pretty good chance that it wouldn't have been a good idea to use one of them, either for the PS3 at the time, but they definitely existed.
* Sony's hesitance to use OpenGL probably has something to do with them having their own proprietary graphics API. That doesn't necessarily preclude OpenGL support, but it might complicate matters. Barring Sony adding a new backend to Cairo to support their own graphics API, this is probably the main roadblock to getting a hardware accelerated browser.
 
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this. I didn't have much of a chance to browse GAF towards the end of last week, and am still catching up right now.

It is definitely quite possible that Cairo was too resource heavy back then. I don't know a huge amount about that particular project's history, so I can't confirm it myself, but that is definitely plausible.

However, using X11 in a device like the PS3 to begin with doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. X11 is window system, and I'm not really sure why you'd use that on a game console where everything is fullscreen all the time. It just seems wasteful in general.

Some thoughts on the above:
* OpenVG is a backend for vector graphics, which includes, but is not limited to SVG. SVG is a markup language which describes vector graphics, and is typically used with static images. SVG does have some hooks for scripting and general dynamicness, but I'm not sure I'd believe that it was used for the XMB without evidence.
* X11 isn't really deprecated, per se. People are trying to build alternatives for it currently, yes, but calling X11 deprecated before those projects are finished is a bit premature.
* Cairo had multiple non-X11 backends when the PS3 released. There's a pretty good chance that it wouldn't have been a good idea to use one of them, either for the PS3 at the time, but they definitely existed.
* Sony's hesitance to use OpenGL probably has something to do with them having their own proprietary graphics API. That doesn't necessarily preclude OpenGL support, but it might complicate matters. Barring Sony adding a new backend to Cairo to support their own graphics API, this is probably the main roadblock to getting a hardware accelerated browser.
October 2005 OpenVG Sony are making it a core API for the PS3, it supports Flash and SVG. My understanding is that in the past Flash plugins to browsers were used by everyone for video and other browser like features because they had less overhead...this has changed and the browser with HTML5 <video> has or will take it's place and is still a possibility for the PS3.


Agree on almost everything except: 1) only full screen will be used. The PS3 XMB has multiple video and picture windows at the same time with the about boxes. They also transform (Trapezoid) and move which is what confused me and I assumed it was Cairo/Pixman. Turns out Sony did some custom picture window transformation work for the Trilithium framework in 2008 using I think AVM+ (Flash action script). On the PS4 with ooVoo there will be multiple video windows open and the FCC talked about Widgets being used for the FCC emergency alert. This is one of the reason the PS4 has a browser desktop. For the PS3 XMB using OpenVG, C++ and Trilithium the same functionality is possible but harder for the programmers and again would be custom Sony while the PS4 would be part of the browser functionality from the Vidipath app or even a lower level with an always on network standby.


2) The guy who wrote the backend and cooperated with the guys doing the PS4 UI says the PS4 has a webGL supported browser desktop. There would be no security concerns there and no need for a full implementation so you could be correct. I still think without any supporting evidence that the PS4 browser will be accelerated and will have a full OpenGL next (Vulcan) backend. Not accelerated usually means not using the GPU.

Vulcan has everything Sony needs to support the PS3 and PS4 (low power and high performance) browsers. Vidipath platforms have to support XTV in exactly the same manner and browsers next year will be supporting many new features that Sony will want to support. They need a nearly 100% compliant browser and the only EASY way to do that is to have a backend that is Vulcan. (WebGL supported by Vulcan)

Vulkan is the new generation, open standard API for high-efficiency access to graphics and compute on modern GPUs. This ground-up design, previously referred to as the Next Generation OpenGL Initiative, provides applications direct control over GPU acceleration for maximized performance and predictability. [ It is not OpenGL but OpenGL can be supported by Vulcan. A WebGL 2.0 is close with new features.]

Valve and the other Khronos members are working hard to ensure that this high-performance graphics interface is made available as widely as possible and we view it as a critical component of SteamOS and future Valve games.&#8221;
Gabe Newell - Valve

Designed to be used in a wide variety of devices including mobile, desktop, consoles, and embedded platforms
Uses Khronos&#8217; new SPIR-V&#8482; intermediate representation for shading language flexibility and simplified drivers
Low-level silicon APIs needed on every platform Graphics, parallel compute, rich media, vision, sensor and camera processing.
The PS3 does not have a modern GPU for compute or a OpenGL ES 3.1 as required for Vulcan but it has Cell for Compute. The advantage for the PS3 using Vulcan are the tools to create the Vulcan routines....I.E. it will be easier to create a custom PS3 port for Vulcan. I think again with no support that the PS3 browser is not using the GPU. Given how Sony supports the PS store on the PS3 with a game engine providing the support OpenGL should provide tells us something...but what. I think security or it's a kludge waiting on Vulcan...Sony has a habit of waiting on Open Standards which makes it seem they aren't competent or are penny pinching.

The common argument against Sony rewriting nearly the entire OS for the PS3 is that it is near end of life and Sony would be wasting money. They can also use that Sony has not updated webMAF apps on the PS3 since 2012 and it still doesn't have HTML5<video>. Sony is porting Playready to the PS3 to support Vidipath which means the browser is getting updates and WebMAF changes in a big way. They don't understand that the PS3 will also be a Vidipath STB and that is part of Sony's plan going forward. The PS3 will be retired by most users to another room with the PS4 in the Living room serving to it and other Vidipath platforms. Every coming ARM Vidipath STB and Game Console that can be a Vidipath STB is PS3 or less performance. If there were no market for PS3 performance STBs then why are there about 10 of them going to be on the market at the end of this year.
 
New video format collaboration announced between big players (Google, MS, Cisco, etc) because they don't want to pay royalties for hvec :)

http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/01/am...to-create-next-gen-video-format/#.yvxtbm:cays
Good find. The PS4, XB1 and all AMD APUs and GPUs are using Xtensa processors as accelerators for codecs so they can likely implement a new royalty free codec. Same I think is true of most handhelds that now support HEVC.

So is this really serious or an effort to get concessions from HEVC patent holders? I don't see how 4K blu-ray disks can be changed at this late date.

Fautier said that he&#8217;s surprised that Technicolor, Microsoft, Sony, Qualcomm, and Mediatek, which own related patents, have decided not to participate in the HEVC pool. However he added that the terms &#8220;are good, and close to the licensing terms for MPEG-2.&#8221;
We see Microsoft is part of the Open Codec collaboration and didn't become part of the HEVC patent pool so they likely had plans to do this and Sony too?
 

mitchman

Gold Member
So is this really serious or an effort to get concessions from HEVC patent holders? I don't see how 4K blu-ray disks can be changed at this late date.

This is all about web video. The licensing is so high for HEVC, it's close to impossible to include it in a free product such as a web browser.
 
This is all about web video. The licensing is so high for HEVC, it's close to impossible to include it in a free product such as a web browser.
From MPEG LA; First 100,000 free then 20 cents per HEVC product be it in a browser (software) or hardware codec per 5 years with no more than a 20% increase after 5 years to a maximum of 25 million per company.

MPEG LA promised a similar agreement for HEVC (also known as H.265), developed as a more efficient, higher quality successor to H.264. Although encoders and decoders would continue to incur fees, the group's license scheme makes streaming, broadcasting, and the use of HEVC on Blu-ray discs zero-cost. This would have permitted a similar situation to H.264; hardware manufacturers and proprietary software vendors would continue to pay the fee, but streaming services and other content producers wouldn't have to pay.
Sony and Microsoft on the PS4 and XB1 would pay one time for the HEVC codec no matter what uses it. A Mozilla browser on a Android phone for example that has a hardware accelerated codec that is used by the Mozilla browser would incur no fee for HEVC.

Then you have a New patent group threatens to derail 4K HEVC video streaming brought to our attention by Blanquito in the last page. The organization is promising to demand a royalty of 0.5 percent of revenue from any broadcaster that uses the codec for streaming. This move could re-ignite the arguments surrounding video codecs on the Web and may well jeopardize services such as Netflix's year-old 4K streaming service.

The second patent group doesn't apply to 4K blu-ray just commercial streaming. The new group is to have Netflix also paying for the use of the HEVC codec. In this model the Mozilla browser still pays no royalty fee if it's using the platform's codec but Netflix must pay even though it's using HTML5 <video> MSE and the platforms codec and DRM extensions. Sony's Playstation Vue would also be impacted by this. So it might delay the use of HEVC or using HEVC at all by Playstation Vue and Netflix and impact next generation UHD TV.

Sony, Microsoft, Google, Qualcomm, and Mediatek among others elected to not be a part of the HEVC patent pool. Were they planning to create the Open Alliance for Media?

Edit: I didn't fully understand this issue when Blanquito first brought it up. Hopefully others can profit from my research and have a better understanding.
 
So where is the Microsoft product to compete with the Apple TV @ $149 with the performance of a Xbox 360? The idea behind the Xbox mini, (Xbox 360 refresh without drives and able to use network drives and game stream to Microsoft platforms and stream games and media from the XB1 and PC) which was rumored in 2013 to release when Windows 10 releases for a price of $149, was to compete with Apple TV.

http://www.vgleaks.com/microsoft-xbox-roadmap-2013 said:
The &#8220;Xbox Mini&#8221; is not a 360 add-on, it is a stand alone product that contains Xbox 360 functions for gaming, and alone it is meant to compete with Apple TV

Apple Is About To Lay Down Its TV Cards

First, that the new Apple TV, as has been reported previously by Buzzfeed, will feature an updated design and Apple&#8217;s A8 chip in a dual-core configuration. The more powerful chip will support an updated interface with much better effects and navigational improvements that make browsing through big content libraries &#8212; one of my biggest wants &#8212; much easier. This will enable developers of games and other resource-intensive applications to produce higher quality and more demanding apps. Among the demos I&#8217;d expect to see on stage next month are content apps, games, and broadcast companies.

To control the new Apple TV? A new remote. It&#8217;s slightly bigger and thicker, with physical buttons on the bottom half, a Touchpad area at the top and a Siri microphone. The new remote will be motion sensitive, likely including several axis&#8217; worth of sensors that put its control on par with a Nintendo Wii remote.

If Apple did indeed &#8216;delay&#8217; the Apple TV from being released at WWDC, then it probably had a reason. And, if my sources are correct, that reason could well be polish, polish, polish. The experience of using it is said to blow away the types of junky smart TV interfaces we&#8217;ve had to deal with so far. This is the first real Apple TV product.

In addition to the convenience of downloading games directly from the Apple TV's built-in App Store, and controlling many of them via a new bundled remote control, Apple will also support more complex, console-style Bluetooth game controllers with the pressure-sensitive buttons and joysticks previously introduced for iPhones, iPads, and iPod touches.

9to5mac reports today that the new Apple TV is likely to cost between $149 and $199, the final price has reportedly not been locked down yet, so we&#8217;ll only come to know for sure when the company unveils this product on stage next month September 9th at the iPhone event..

Apple TV will allow for third-party controllers to link to it via Bluetooth 4.2. An iPhone or iPad may also gain the ability to morph into a gaming pad when a game is cast to the TV, much like we see with Android TV. It is said to have the 802.11ac WiFi standard, too.

Apple partner Imagination unveils PowerVR 'super-GPU' with 512 ALU cores for game consoles



The following is an early educated guess at the Apple TV specs (grain of salt) but it matches on the high end, the above Power VR GPU. IF apple does want a game console as the Apple TV then it could be more accurate than not.



Apple iPhone 6 (Apple A8) performance review: when configured for a phone (limited power and heat dissipation)

Note that Geekbench 3 total scores are calibrated against a baseline score of 2500 (which is the score of an Intel Core i5-2520M @ 2.50 GHz)
For Lua 2 = 71% the performance of a i5-2520 @ 2.5 Ghz and other functions average about 20% of the i5 2520

i5 2520 notebook CPU compared against other processors

Multiple Game Consoles as Vidipath STBs are being released. Most claim to have Xbox 360 performance levels.

Nvidia shield
Apple TV
Fire TV
RAZER + GOOGLE
OUYA
 

Pokemaniac

Member
October 2005 OpenVG Sony are making it a core API for the PS3, it supports Flash and SVG. My understanding is that in the past Flash plugins to browsers were used by everyone for video and other browser like features because they had less overhead...this has changed and the browser with HTML5 <video> has or will take it's place and is still a possibility for the PS3.

Browser plugins originally became popular because HTML, CSS, and Javascript didn't always have the features and/or performance necessary to facilitate things like media playback, complex animation, video games, or really anything where you'd need to get really good performance out of client side code. Back then, plugins were necessary for things like that, with Flash in particular becoming popular due to a perfect combo of relative ease of development, a well rounded feature set, and being in the right place at the right time.

OpenVG supports more than just Flash and SVG. It is simply a general purpose vector graphics library.

Agree on almost everything except: 1) only full screen will be used. The PS3 XMB has multiple video and picture windows at the same time with the about boxes. They also transform (Trapezoid) and move which is what confused me and I assumed it was Cairo/Pixman. Turns out Sony did some custom picture window transformation work for the Trilithium framework in 2008 using I think AVM+ (Flash action script). On the PS4 with ooVoo there will be multiple video windows open and the FCC talked about Widgets being used for the FCC emergency alert. This is one of the reason the PS4 has a browser desktop. For the PS3 XMB using OpenVG, C++ and Trilithium the same functionality is possible but harder for the programmers and again would be custom Sony while the PS4 would be part of the browser functionality from the Vidipath app or even a lower level with an always on network standby.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by full screen. By full screen, I meant that there is only one application outputting to the screen at any given time, and it has the entire screen to work with. Using X11 would only really make sense if they intended for there to be multiple "windows" on the screen with different applications rendering to them.

Also, the majority of what you said in this quote doesn't really make sense to me. It sounds like you're trying to attribute certain features to certain technologies in a way that doesn't really make sense. While it is, in many cases, possible to deduce the way that a piece of software is built from how it behaves, the conclusions you have come to suggest that you don't really have sufficient knowledge of how software is built in order to do this effectively. I could try discussing these claims with you individually if you provide a lot more details on why you came to those conclusions.

Also, game consoles don't really have a desktop. Having a desktop implies a level of multitasking that game consoles simply don't do.

2) The guy who wrote the backend and cooperated with the guys doing the PS4 UI says the PS4 has a webGL supported browser desktop. There would be no security concerns there and no need for a full implementation so you could be correct. I still think without any supporting evidence that the PS4 browser will be accelerated and will have a full OpenGL next (Vulcan) backend. Not accelerated usually means not using the GPU.

Vulcan has everything Sony needs to support the PS3 and PS4 (low power and high performance) browsers. Vidipath platforms have to support XTV in exactly the same manner and browsers next year will be supporting many new features that Sony will want to support. They need a nearly 100% compliant browser and the only EASY way to do that is to have a backend that is Vulcan. (WebGL supported by Vulcan)

The PS3 does not have a modern GPU for compute or a OpenGL ES 3.1 as required for Vulcan but it has Cell for Compute. The advantage for the PS3 using Vulcan are the tools to create the Vulcan routines....I.E. it will be easier to create a custom PS3 port for Vulcan. I think again with no support that the PS3 browser is not using the GPU. Given how Sony supports the PS store on the PS3 with a game engine providing the support OpenGL should provide tells us something...but what. I think security or it's a kludge waiting on Vulcan...Sony has a habit of waiting on Open Standards which makes it seem they aren't competent or are penny pinching.

It is entirely possible that one or both platforms already use Sony's proprietary API as a backend for WebGL. It is also possible that one or both platforms currently support OpenGL. Without access to developer documentation it's hard to say which Sony is using, and there are pros and cons to both approaches. Especially since WebGL isn't particularly beholden to any particular backend. I feel like I should also mention that it is also possible that Sony has made an implementation of OpenGL using their own API as a backend.

The common argument against Sony rewriting nearly the entire OS for the PS3 is that it is near end of life and Sony would be wasting money. They can also use that Sony has not updated webMAF apps on the PS3 since 2012 and it still doesn't have HTML5<video>. Sony is porting Playready to the PS3 to support Vidipath which means the browser is getting updates and WebMAF changes in a big way. They don't understand that the PS3 will also be a Vidipath STB and that is part of Sony's plan going forward. The PS3 will be retired by most users to another room with the PS4 in the Living room serving to it and other Vidipath platforms. Every coming ARM Vidipath STB and Game Console that can be a Vidipath STB is PS3 or less performance. If there were no market for PS3 performance STBs then why are there about 10 of them going to be on the market at the end of this year.

I'm not sure why you're talking about a major rewrite of the PS3's OS. I don't see any reason why they couldn't just add a Vidipath implementation. Just because one app is using a more up to date Webkit version doesn't mean that everything else in the PS3 that uses Webkit needs to be updated to use the new version as well. The PS3 OS is not a single monolithic entity. Some of it's functionality is provided by several built in applications.
 
I think you misunderstood what I meant by full screen. By full screen, I meant that there is only one application outputting to the screen at any given time, and it has the entire screen to work with. Using X11 would only really make sense if they intended for there to be multiple "windows" on the screen with different applications rendering to them.
On the PS3 XMB there are multiple video windows under the film icon displaying a 5 second or so loop of the first few video files stored on the PS3 at the same time you have the 6 About Box picture trapezoids transforming and moving up the screen. All these take place at the same time and are separate processes running under a common program called the XMB. In this case the XMB is the full screen app that all the other smaller windows use. The XMB also supports or will support DLNA modes that require DLNA to be always loaded (more on this later).

Also, the majority of what you said in this quote doesn't really make sense to me. It sounds like you're trying to attribute certain features to certain technologies in a way that doesn't really make sense. While it is, in many cases, possible to deduce the way that a piece of software is built from how it behaves, the conclusions you have come to suggest that you don't really have sufficient knowledge of how software is built in order to do this effectively. I could try discussing these claims with you individually if you provide a lot more details on why you came to those conclusions.
The technologies being used for the XMB were a patchwork of existing software that can now be replaced by a browser desktop. In the later Sony DIFF files for the webkit browser is a change to allow support for web workers or multiple processes able to request their own memory. This was more than two years ago and web workers are part of the Webkit2 build.

Also, game consoles don't really have a desktop. Having a desktop implies a level of multitasking that game consoles simply don't do.
A browser desktop is a correct description. The look and feel of the desktop is separate from how it is implemented. Above I've described a level of multitasking in the PS3 XMB that we almost see in the PS4 browser desktop. That the PS4 shows a lower level (no multiple video previews running) may be due to a lower level of video codec support over what Cell can do or Game console power Idle mode power regulations.

It is entirely possible that one or both platforms already use Sony's proprietary API as a backend for WebGL. It is also possible that one or both platforms currently support OpenGL. Without access to developer documentation it's hard to say which Sony is using, and there are pros and cons to both approaches. Especially since WebGL isn't particularly beholden to any particular backend. I feel like I should also mention that it is also possible that Sony has made an implementation of OpenGL using their own API as a backend.
This may be true but why isn't it GPU accelerated in the browser and why is the PS3 playstation store still loading a game engine to support it.

I'm not sure why you're talking about a major rewrite of the PS3's OS. I don't see any reason why they couldn't just add a Vidipath implementation. Just because one app is using a more up to date Webkit version doesn't mean that everything else in the PS3 that uses Webkit needs to be updated to use the new version as well. The PS3 OS is not a single monolithic entity. Some of it's functionality is provided by several built in applications.
Good question with a good answer to continue from above. Vidipath requires several W3C extensions and support for multiple Second screen features including DLNA. The PS3 as a Vidipath platform has to accept Miracast streaming from a handheld and becoming a DLNA player accepting commands from a DLNA app in a phone. This requires always on or at a minimum always listening when the PS3 is on which means low level rewrites of the OS. That plus Playready keys, player, metadata rules, encryption routines must always be loaded hidden in the kernel as the PS3 master key was hacked.

You could be correct and everything is provided by the browser as a Vidipath HTML5 app which is the reason for a PS4 browser desktop but then the PS3 browser would be fully updated to PS4 level and could be used in place of the current XMB and the PS3 then has a browser desktop. It would make sense to replace the PS3 apps in that case as everything can be a WebMAF app at that point and all apps would load faster and use less space which is one of the features for a WebGL browser desktop.

Given Sony is porting Playready to the PS3 now and they have not updated any of the XMB apps like Chat or Netflix since 2012 seems to imply they are waiting to do everything at the same time as a update to the current video Chat would be thrown away when the Playready/OS update is done. Oh, the Videochat standard now requires all to be encrypted and W3C WebRTC is part of Vidipath which is what a Video Chat program uses making it much easier to port a Video chat program to the PS3. WebRTC also give low latency video streaming which is what the PS4 to PS3 game streaming would use. What the PS3 can't do that the PS4 can is to run a audio or video chat program at the same time a game is running on the PS3 GPU.

A modern Video chat uses the same HTML5 <video> routines (encryption, codec and DASH) for outgoing video and can change resolution to meet internet bandwidth and accept HTML5 <video> with the same routines. All browser based with WebRTC W3C extensions supporting a Camera and more like echo cancellation.

Perhaps I have been clumsy in explaining this: Once you have Vidipath support which Sony is planning to do for the PS3, you have a browser that can easily support video chat in the browser with less than 50 lines of Javascript. This makes running everything in the browser extremely attractive. What you describe given this fact is a Vidipath app that does everything and no reason to leave the vidipath app which my take essentially makes the Vidipath app a browser desktop.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
On the PS3 XMB there are multiple video windows under the film icon displaying a 5 second or so loop of the first few video files stored on the PS3 at the same time you have the 6 About Box picture trapezoids transforming and moving up the screen. All these take place at the same time and are separate processes running under a common program called the XMB. In this case the XMB is the full screen app that all the other smaller windows use. The XMB also supports or will support DLNA modes that require DLNA to be always loaded (more on this later).

You're still not getting my point. All of the stuff you're talking about is probably all being done by the XMB itself. The video "windows" and such are not the same as a "window" that you would see on a desktop computer. They are most likely just part of the overall image that the XMB is rendering. Calling them "windows" implies a degree of separation that doesn't really make sense. Using a full window system in this context would be highly inefficient.

The technologies being used for the XMB were a patchwork of existing software that can now be replaced by a browser desktop. In the later Sony DIFF files for the webkit browser is a change to allow support for web workers or multiple processes able to request their own memory. This was more than two years ago and web workers are part of the Webkit2 build.

I don't really disagree with this but it doesn't really address what I was saying.
To try to be more specific on my original points:
jeff_rigby said:
Turns out Sony did some custom picture window transformation work for the Trilithium framework in 2008 using I think AVM+ (Flash action script).

This isn't completely unreasonable, but it lacks any real evidence to back it up, and, as such, comes across as just a random guess.

jeff_rigby said:
On the PS4 with ooVoo there will be multiple video windows open and the FCC talked about Widgets being used for the FCC emergency alert.

See notes about "windows" above. Also, "Widget" is a term that tons of things in software use. You'll have to be more specific than that.

jeff_rigby said:
For the PS3 XMB using OpenVG, C++ and Trilithium the same functionality is possible but harder for the programmers and again would be custom Sony while the PS4 would be part of the browser functionality from the Vidipath app or even a lower level with an always on network standby.

You seem to be saying something about using the browser to implement stuff that would have to be native code on the PS3, but then the bolded part starts and makes me feel like there's some missing context or something, since you seem to go from talking about the system UI, to talking about individual apps.

A browser desktop is a correct description. The look and feel of the desktop is separate from how it is implemented. Above I've described a level of multitasking in the PS3 XMB that we almost see in the PS4 browser desktop. That the PS4 shows a lower level (no multiple video previews running) may be due to a lower level of video codec support over what Cell can do or Game console power Idle mode power regulations.

I take issue with calling the console UIs "desktops" because they are so far removed from the actual desktop metaphor that desktop computers use. This is admittedly getting into semantics, but given some of the other assumptions you're making, I feel the need to clarify.

Also, as said above, what you are referring to isn't the multitasking I'm talking about. I'm talking about having fully separate applications on the screen at the same time. Not just there being a video embedded somewhere in the interface. Having videos embedded in the UI doesn't even necessarily require true concurrency.

This may be true but why isn't it GPU accelerated in the browser and why is the PS3 playstation store still loading a game engine to support it.

I'd need more information about both of these topics in order to give more insight.

Good question with a good answer to continue from above. Vidipath requires several W3C extensions and support for multiple Second screen features including DLNA. The PS3 as a Vidipath platform has to accept Miracast streaming from a handheld and becoming a DLNA player accepting commands from a DLNA app in a phone. This requires always on or at a minimum always listening when the PS3 is on which means low level rewrites of the OS. That plus Playready keys, player, metadata rules, encryption routines must always be loaded hidden in the kernel as the PS3 master key was hacked.

You could be correct and everything is provided by the browser as a Vidipath HTML5 app which is the reason for a PS4 browser desktop but then the PS3 browser would be fully updated to PS4 level and could be used in place of the current XMB and the PS3 then has a browser desktop. It would make sense to replace the PS3 apps in that case as everything can be a WebMAF app at that point and all apps would load faster and use less space which is one of the features for a WebGL browser desktop.

Given Sony is porting Playready to the PS3 now and they have not updated any of the XMB apps like Chat or Netflix since 2012 seems to imply they are waiting to do everything at the same time as a update to the current video Chat would be thrown away when the Playready/OS update is done. Oh, the Videochat standard now requires all to be encrypted and W3C WebRTC is part of Vidipath which is what a Video Chat program uses making it much easier to port a Video chat program to the PS3. WebRTC also give low latency video streaming which is what the PS4 to PS3 game streaming would use. What the PS3 can't do that the PS4 can is to run a audio or video chat program at the same time a game is running on the PS3 GPU.

A modern Video chat uses the same HTML5 <video> routines (encryption, codec and DASH) for outgoing video and can change resolution to meet internet bandwidth and accept HTML5 <video> with the same routines. All browser based with WebRTC W3C extensions supporting a Camera and more like echo cancellation.

Perhaps I have been clumsy in explaining this: Once you have Vidipath support which Sony is planning to do for the PS3, you have a browser that can easily support video chat in the browser with less than 50 lines of Javascript. This makes running everything in the browser extremely attractive. What you describe given this fact is a Vidipath app that does everything and no reason to leave the vidipath app which my take essentially makes the Vidipath app a browser desktop.

The reason the PS3 OS is lacking in chat features isn't because it is too difficult to implement. It's because there isn't enough RAM. Switching over to a web app would actually make that problem worse, since web apps use far more RAM than native ones.

Similar reasoning applies to the rest of the OS. Sure, they would have the features to reimplement the XMB in HTML/JS, but it would be much slower than the current version, and would use a lot more RAM.

Also, just because you can rewrite an app doesn't mean that you should. That is a terrible reason to rewrite something. It's only worth it if there are significant advantages to doing it, which there really wouldn't be in this case. "It is easier to write the apps in HTML/JS, than as native apps" is not a significant enough benefit when you already have a competently written, working native implementation.
 
Top Bottom