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LA Times: 'Many researchers taking a different view of pedophilia'

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oneils

Member
It's all drawn/rendered/2D/fake material, if that's what you're getting at.

I don't think it would be very bright of me to admit to collecting actual CP. :p

Interesting. All that stuff is illegal in Canada. There has been some debate over it in the past but I don't remember what happened. I think the Supreme Court eventually upheld the existing laws. I'm not quite sure where I fall on the issue. From what I know I think we may have some of the strictest laws in the west.
 

Ziltoid

Unconfirmed Member
The only case in Canada I know of was a guy who was caught importing actual physical books (manga I assume) from Japan.
The guy in Sweden was also caught with imports. He translated it and uploaded it to the internet. He won on the basis that the material was fictional and not real, which I personally find reasonable. Police and investigative resources shouldn't be wasted on fictional/thought crimes.
 
I guess at least your system here can count consistency along with unconstitutionality among its characteristic.



And desire does not inexorably lead to acceptance. A pedophile I'm sure can desire sex with a child AND know that it's wrong.



What percentage of pedophiles are rapists? Don't guess.

I'm on your side of the argument and I still find the nature of your posts really irritating. You never seem to debate an issue with respect, every reply to another post is full of sarcasm or merciless picking on irrelevant points of the issue. You don't need to marginalise and condescend anyone to get your point across.
 
Nightstick, I can tell that you are very passionate about this idea of yours but you have to realize that what you are proposing will almost certainly never happen. People won't stand for it. I know I wouldn't.

And what about the damage simply testing kids for this will do to them? Requiring innocent children to take a test to find out if they might rape a kid someday should not be a part of a productive and positive learning environment.

Never say never. We have seen all kinds of federal laws passed that were thought to be unlikely, starting from the Civil Rights Act.


Design me a test that works like our current standardized testing and is 100% accurate for catching pedophiles. Or, see my above post to see why it is completely unreasonable.

Or, think before you type, and realize two truths: (1) I am not the person who has to design the test; (2) this test need not be 100% accurate.


Your earlier posts implied that you would be fine with either, but I now see that the mention of physical is missing. I was merely inquiring into why that was the case.

The mention of physical isn't missing: it was never there. I'm inquiring as to how did our educational system fail you so much that your reading comprehension is so horrible.


Huh, that sounds an awful lot like what you want to do to pedophiles...

Do you only pop off with vague, vapid one-liners, or do you care to break down that statement with a competent analysis of my position?



Oh, now it's "likely"! A term you still have not defined or supported with a single shred of evidence.

Your responses are so vague and meandering that it's difficult to ascertain what you're referring to. I'll roll up my sleeves and try

Likely is self-explanatory.
As mentioned countless number of times, there is no legal requirement for me to determine or gauge what percentage of pedophiles pose a danger. I asked you before which legal precedents require me to determine this, and you never responded.

And you STILL haven't explained why this proposal is prima facie unconstitutional, which is the very catalyst for me even interacting with the likes of you.

What? I've been telling you your inability to supply sufficient evidence for the claim is the problem.

What are you even talking about? Read our exchange, read my response, and think.

I repeat, in the vain hope that you'll finally understand; those are the two elements that are needed to be proven in order to institutionalize a pedophile, if pedophilia was classified properly.

What does "your inability to supply sufficient evidence for the claim" even mean? You do understand how a case works, correct? That it is on a case-by-case basis and there is no need whatsoever for me to issue a blanket generalization on "sufficient evidence for the claim"? Did you even think this through?

It certainly can be. And a database set up based on the assumption a person needs to be monitored and determined only by interactions with a doctor would in fact be wrong.

I just pointed out numerous examples where people can be monitored for flimsy pretexts, and you still insist "nuh-uh! it's wong! I said so!" Classic. Statutes, examples, legal precedents, common-law cases, please. "But this is how I feeeel!" doesn't fly in a debate, as I pointed out to you yesterday.


Tarasoff cannot establish that exception unless it's an exception to something. If we agree that pedophiles are protected by doctor-patient confidentiality you also need to present sufficient evidence to warrant an exception if you intend to use that medical information.

It's like you're not even trying to make sense. Tarasoff established an exception to the doctor-patient privilege. As I educated you before, doctor-patient privilege varies by state, and is not established by federal law, hence the name Tarasoff v. Regents of University of California. Knowing this, does your first sentence make any sense? Why would you even type something like that?

Your second sentence once again displays a shockingly deficient reading comprehension level. I don't need to present anything. If a pedophile's physician feels reasonably that a pedophile is in imminent danger of hurting someone, the physician can break the privilege. Nobody needs to present any hard evidence that a pedophile is going to hurt anybody. Are you following?

If you understand doctor-patient privilege at all, which you obviously don't, you'd also realize that these exceptions are narrow in scope, and do not apply to the medical history in its totality, only the relevant portions. Knowing this, you should understand why your paragraph was nonsensical.

Jesus.


Your first bullet point said doctor-patient privilege isn't a law, yet the courts felt it necessary to write a bunch of words detailing an exception to this idea that isn't a law. Did they waste their time? You also said federal law does not recognize it, but HIPAA is federal law and outlines the privacy regulations applied to medical information.

Jesus christ.

(1) It isn't a federal statute. It's a state privilege. Find me the federal statute where it is a law.

(2) Find me the federal statute that codifies doctor-patient privilege.

(3) Jesus fucking christ. We are talking about doctor-patient privilege, and this idiot is bringing up regulations regarding what information health insurance companies can disclose. Find me the federal statute that codifies doctor-patient privilege
 
If they weren't then some actual discussion and learning could be had.

We couldn't have that, could we?

Hey my post didn't contain any judgement. The way he worded it, it seemed like he thought drawn/rendered stuff was okay. In reality the law treats them the same as real photos/videos so I thought he should be aware.

Edit: not in every part of the world though.
 

sky

Member
By the way, since I'm here... ask me anything? Heh.

Has anyone ever called you out on your preferences?
I mean noticed something you said or did, and connected the dots?

I'm just curious whether you've discussed this with other people, or only on GAF.
Do friends / family know?
 

KHarvey16

Member
Your responses are so vague and meandering that it's difficult to ascertain what you're referring to. I'll roll up my sleeves and try

Likely is self-explanatory.
As mentioned countless number of times, there is no legal requirement for me to determine or gauge what percentage of pedophiles pose a danger. I asked you before which legal precedents require me to determine this, and you never responded.

And you STILL haven't explained why this proposal is prima facie unconstitutional, which is the very catalyst for me even interacting with the likes of you.



What are you even talking about? Read our exchange, read my response, and think.

I repeat, in the vain hope that you'll finally understand; those are the two elements that are needed to be proven in order to institutionalize a pedophile, if pedophilia was classified properly.

What does "your inability to supply sufficient evidence for the claim" even mean? You do understand how a case works, correct? That it is on a case-by-case basis and there is no need whatsoever for me to issue a blanket generalization on "sufficient evidence for the claim"? Did you even think this through?



I just pointed out numerous examples where people can be monitored for flimsy pretexts, and you still insist "nuh-uh! it's wong! I said so!" Classic. Statutes, examples, legal precedents, common-law cases, please. "But this is how I feeeel!" doesn't fly in a debate, as I pointed out to you yesterday.




It's like you're not even trying to make sense. Tarasoff established an exception to the doctor-patient privilege. As I educated you before, doctor-patient privilege varies by state, and is not established by federal law, hence the name Tarasoff v. Regents of University of California. Knowing this, does your first sentence make any sense? Why would you even type something like that?

Your second sentence once again displays a shockingly deficient reading comprehension level. I don't need to present anything. If a pedophile's physician feels reasonably that a pedophile is in imminent danger of hurting someone, the physician can break the privilege. Nobody needs to present any hard evidence that a pedophile is going to hurt anybody. Are you following?

If you understand doctor-patient privilege at all, which you obviously don't, you'd also realize that these exceptions are narrow in scope, and do not apply to the medical history in its totality, only the relevant portions. Knowing this, you should understand why your paragraph was nonsensical.

Jesus.

Detail your whole plan here. I think you've been changing it, so I'd like to hear you outline exactly how it's gonna work. Is everyone tested? Once they get tested, does someone determine if they're dangerous on top of tripping the Pedomatic pedophile detector?

Jesus christ.

(1) It isn't a federal statute. It's a state privilege. Find me the federal statute where it is a law.

(2) Find me the federal statute that codifies doctor-patient privilege.

(3) Jesus fucking christ. We are talking about doctor-patient privilege, and this idiot is bringing up regulations regarding what information health insurance companies can disclose. Find me the federal statute that codifies doctor-patient privilege

HIPAA applies to doctors and hospitals. Good try though!
 
Has anyone ever called you out on your preferences?
I mean noticed something you said or did, and connected the dots?

I'm just curious whether you've discussed this with other people, or only on GAF.
Do friends / family know?
All the bloody time. I mean I tend to play young-looking characters in video games whenever I'm given the option (my PSO2 characters, for example), so it's not like I'm being terribly subtle about it. I was also one of the most vocal defenders of the Elin race for TERA... Fortunately, though, the extent of what I suffer is usually just an off-color comment every now and then. It should be noted that I've never had someone just straight-up come up to me and ask "are you a pedophile?" or accuse me of such. As far as RL goes, though: never. I do my level best to just be normal (and succeed at that, quite handsomely in fact).

I've discussed it with a few others outside the site, mostly friends I made through online roleplaying. It's one of the things that keeps me sane (I have good friends!). There's only one friend I'm within physical proximity with who has an idea. As far as family goes, my siblings may have a clue but it's not like I'm telling them anything (and I sure as hell keep as much away from mother as I possibly can). It's reeaally not a topic I broach in-person, especially since I'm a small individual who already suffers from social anxiety.

Except when it comes to the internet, for some reason. Well, mostly. I admit there's instances where I am hesitant to click on threads for fear of what comes next...
Well, if you ever find yourself in legal trouble, you better hope to your gods and ancestors that your lawyer is nitpicky. The laws are specifically written the way they are for a reason.
Well, yeah, I know that much. I just prefer not to get into trouble in the first place if I can at all help it.
 
Detail your whole plan here. I think you've been changing it, so I'd like to hear you outline exactly how it's gonna work. Is everyone tested? Once they get tested, does someone determine if they're dangerous on top of tripping the Pedomatic pedophile detector?

I just quoted an outline, with subsequent clarifications, to Acerac not even a page ago.



HIPAA applies to doctors and hospitals. Good try though!

Maybe you don't know how to read.

Once again, find me the federal statute that governs doctor-patient privilege.

Not health-care companies. Not health-care administrators. Not people within the health-care system who may chance upon papers.


I'll cite statutes and cases.

http://federalevidence.com/rules-of-evidence#Rule501. Federal Rules of Evidence 501. State-law privileges govern because there is an absence of federal privilege for doctor-patient.

On July 6, 2007, in United States v. Bek, doctor-patient privilege was explicitly denied as a defense, because the federal courts do not recognize this privilege.


You're welcome.
 

Acerac

Banned
Hey my post didn't contain any judgement. The way he worded it, it seemed like he thought drawn/rendered stuff was okay. In reality the law treats them the same as real photos/videos so I thought he should be aware.

Edit: not in every part of the world though.

You were trying to be informative. Other people's posts seemed... less helpful.
 
From the article:

Researchers have also determined that pedophiles are nearly an inch shorter on average than non-pedophiles and lag behind the average IQ by 10 points — discoveries that are consistent with developmental problems, whether before birth or in childhood.

In a 2008 study, Cantor's team conducted MRI brain scans on 65 pedophiles. Compared with men with criminal histories but no sex offenses, they had less white matter, the connective circuitry of the brain.

I'm assuming the pedophiles were identified based on criminal convictions. People will rarely (read: never) simply acknowledge their pedophilia or volunteer for a study based on it. That being the case, what this data probably reflects is not something about pedophilia per se but rather about the subset of pedophiles who act on their "orientation." In that respect, it shouldn't at all be surprising that developmental deficiencies are observed because this would also be highly likely to correlate with deficient impulse control--what got them in trouble to begin with. In other words, the research--at least the bits I quoted--is not identifying something about pedophiles, but something about people with developmental problems much more generally. And this has implications for all kinds of criminal behavior, not just pedophilia. Most people who commit criminal acts are disabled in some way, often in subtle ways involving lack of impulse control that one wouldn't be likely to notice in an interaction on the street or in a store.

Obviously, pedophilia is problematic for society. But I think identifying and finding solutions for the underlying impulse control disorders is far more important for public safety. Poverty is understood to be a risk factor for developmental problems. Tackling poverty and inequality will do so much more than most people realize to avert the destruction to individual lives caused by criminal behavior of any kind.
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
I'm all for pedophilia being viewed as more of a understand and try to help issue, rather than a burn him at the stake issue. Nothing is gained from the current model of dealing with pedophiles, your choices are either warehouse them in shady legal frameworks like Coalinga or keep them hidden under the surface. We have no idea of any real estimate to how many even exist people are so afraid to even talk about it, that's not a healthy mental healthcare system or society trying to find solutions. That's demonization of the first order, regardless if it's genetic or acquired, it helps nobody with the current model and definitely not children.

At the end of the day, irrelevant to the roots the issue needs to be tackled introspectively. As long as "sex" or "sexual nature" is viewed as anything more than a biological urge and means to reproduce all kinds of things like this will exist and hurt society. But thinking that way in every day life is very radical shift from the norm and requires a strong head on the shoulders, but that's what we should be hedging for anyways.
 
It's a fair question considering we did post pictures of our kids not too long ago.

Zyrusticae please do not search for this kthx
Haha, to be clear, I don't think I'd find them very attractive anyway!
Obviously, pedophilia is problematic for society. But I think identifying and finding solutions for the underlying impulse control disorders is far more important for public safety. Poverty is understood to be a risk factor for developmental problems. Tackling poverty and inequality will do so much more than most people realize to avert the destruction to individual lives caused by criminal behavior of any kind.
This guy gets it. Excellent post.

Poverty and inequality are at the roots of so many of our social ills, it really should get first priority (and not the current bullshit where we spend so much money on war and fighting the drug trade).
 

ajim

Member
It's a fair question considering we did post pictures of our kids not too long ago.

Zyrusticae please do not search for this kthx

Its pretty safe to say that Zyrusticae isn't the only paedophile on Neogaf. If you don't want certain people looking at your children, don't post pictures of them on a public forum (one where members and guests alike can view).

My preference is females who have experienced puberty. I find women of all ages attractive, but I seem to be attracted mostly to the 14 - 20 age group. Even when I find myself attracted to adult females, they always seem to have the common characteristics: petite/small/cute/natural beauty etc. Eg, Emma Watson, Natalie Portman, Mila Kunis, Taylor Swift etc.
Ephebophilia is pretty common amongst men. And it at least makes more sense than paedophilia, if only from a biological/evolutionary standpoint.

Still probably not cool to 'admit' in real life tho.
 
I'm assuming the pedophiles were identified based on criminal convictions. People will rarely (read: never) simply acknowledge their pedophilia or volunteer for a study based on it. That being the case, what this data probably reflects is not something about pedophilia per se but rather about the subset of pedophiles who act on their "orientation." In that respect, it shouldn't at all be surprising that developmental deficiencies are observed because this would also be highly likely to correlate with deficient impulse control--what got them in trouble to begin with. In other words, the research--at least the bits I quoted--is not identifying something about pedophiles, but something about people with developmental problems much more generally. And this has implications for all kinds of criminal behavior, not just pedophilia. Most people who commit criminal acts are disabled in some way, often in subtle ways involving lack of impulse control that one wouldn't be likely to notice in an interaction on the street or in a store.

Obviously, pedophilia is problematic for society. But I think identifying and finding solutions for the underlying impulse control disorders is far more important for public safety. Poverty is understood to be a risk factor for developmental problems. Tackling poverty and inequality will do so much more than most people realize to avert the destruction to individual lives caused by criminal behavior of any kind.

Poverty though is impossible to eradicate. How would we solve poverty? Not everyone can be middle-class. While tackling the problem would solve or alleviate a whole mess of issues we have as a society, including possibly pedophilia, it's like the war on drugs; too vague, too big.
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
This guy gets it. Excellent post.

Poverty and inequality are at the roots of so many of our social ills, it really should get first priority (and not the current bullshit where we spend so much money on war and fighting the drug trade).

This sounds good, but it won't work in a lot of cases for social ills. Many people who are the most deeply troubled are sociopaths. Which means equality and extra funds won't solve the underlying problems, by any stretch of the imagination. In the last couple years the idea of treating sociopathy is to treat it with practical psychology if you will, sort of a introspective analysis of themselves and their own principles and standards as people, and then arguing with that judgement to enforce a framework of questioning their own judgements (thought per thought). In the past it was thought that "treating" sociopaths was impossible due to their tendency to use the therapy as another tool for manipulation. While that is true it's also true that introspective therapy both provides the narcissistic supply and well as leaves a framework of questioning judgement before a choice is made.
 

KHarvey16

Member
I just quoted an outline, with subsequent clarifications, to Acerac not even a page ago.

Ok, I found it. The results of that mental health screening cannot simply be held by the government. They can't maintain a file with your personal medical information learned during this examination. As the law stands now the government needs a reason to request specific records for specific purposes. If you disagree you'll need to specify what law grants the government this ability.

The court might consider such an examination a search, which would require individual justification of course.

In the end you'd need to justify jumping from "Chester is weird" to forcing Chester to submit to that additional testing. No standard allows "weird" to satisfy it. An expert must determine that "weird" really means dangerous, which wouldn't necessarily be the case for all pedophiles. Which puts us right back at square one.

Maybe you don't know how to read.

Once again, find me the federal statute that governs doctor-patient privilege.

Not health-care companies. Not health-care administrators. Not people within the health-care system who may chance upon papers.

Again, HIPAA applies to doctors explicitly.

I'll cite statutes and cases.

http://federalevidence.com/rules-of-evidence#Rule501. Federal Rules of Evidence 501. State-law privileges govern because there is an absence of federal privilege for doctor-patient.

On July 6, 2007, in United States v. Bek, doctor-patient privilege was explicitly denied as a defense, because the federal courts do not recognize this privilege.


You're welcome.

HIPAA forbids doctors from sharing your medical records without your consent unless conditions are met. US v Bek explains specifically how the proper warrant was obtained for the medical records to allow their disclosure to the government and at trial.
 
I bailed out of this thread early on, because it is almost impossible for me to be rational on this matter at all. I came back to read more of the responses, and now that are people here that are coming forward...That's incredibly brave. Seriously, I have respect for that.

I am trying, and I will keep trying, to not automatically judge anyone who feels attraction toward children. Even discussing the matter makes me feel like all the oxygen is being sucked from the room. I would hate for the fact that my issues (and people who have issues like I do) would prevent someone from seeking help for it if they needed to.

But please also give people like me time to adjust to this sort of reasoning, if you would.
 

PGamer

fucking juniors
Are you saying you wouldn't have sex with my child... because he is ugly?!
RuUQq.jpg
 

Cheerilee

Member
Poverty though is impossible to eradicate. How would we solve poverty? Not everyone can be middle-class. While tackling the problem would solve or alleviate a whole mess of issues we have as a society, including possibly pedophilia, it's like the war on drugs; too vague, too big.

Yeah, let's get back on track with the real solution, perverting the United States Constitution in fully-legal ways until men from the government are allowed to be left alone in rooms with all the little boys in America, viewing a series of images and listening to descriptions of various sexual acts with adults and children, male and female, while wearing devices that monitor blood flow to the little boy's penises.


And... did you just speculate that pedophilia might be caused by poverty?
 

Dead Man

Member
Poverty though is impossible to eradicate. How would we solve poverty? Not everyone can be middle-class. While tackling the problem would solve or alleviate a whole mess of issues we have as a society, including possibly pedophilia, it's like the war on drugs; too vague, too big.

Relative poverty will always exist, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that it is possible to eliminate dire poverty, food insecurity, school insecurity, the big stuff that is actual poverty. Of course some will always have more than others.

And poverty is linked to paedophilia now?
 
Relative poverty will always exist, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that it is possible to eliminate dire poverty, food insecurity, school insecurity, the big stuff that is actual poverty. Of course some will always have more than others.

And poverty is linked to paedophilia now?

I would be more inclined to say that people who act on pedophilia are linked to poverty. To the extent that people who act on pedophilia are linked to developmental problems, as the research in OP's article does, then this automatically links them to poverty, yes. That doesn't mean every person who acts on pedophilia has a developmental deficiency or is poor, of course. It's rather just that these greatly contribute to its occurrence.
 
Ok, I found it. The results of that mental health screening cannot simply be held by the government. They can't maintain a file with your personal medical information learned during this examination. As the law stands now the government needs a reason to request specific records for specific purposes. If you disagree you'll need to specify what law grants the government this ability.

The records can be held by contracted companies, and requested by the government, in the same vein of how SSI, SSA, Medical, Medicare, ADA cases etc. operate. A specific record for specific purposes would be something like requesting mental health evaluations for the purposes of this hypothetical Keep Kids Safe Act.

Also, 45 C.F.R. § 164.508(a)(2)(i)(A): . Notwithstanding any provision of this subpart, other than the transition provisions in § 164.532, a covered entity must obtain an authorization for any use or disclosure of psychotherapy notes, except:
(i) To carry out the following treatment, payment, or health care operations:
(A) Use by the originator of the psychotherapy notes for treatment;


In the end you'd need to justify jumping from "Chester is weird" to forcing Chester to submit to that additional testing. No standard allows "weird" to satisfy it. An expert must determine that "weird" really means dangerous, which wouldn't necessarily be the case for all pedophiles. Which puts us right back at square one.

Why are you so hung up on a blase use of "weird" when all preceding and all subsequent posts make it clear that the aim was to identify mentally ill people with the proclivity to rape children?

"No standard allows 'weird' to satisfy it it" is a straw-man.

Hypothetically, an expert must determine whether someone is a pedophile. Once identified, they can be registered. Once it is determined they are at a certain threshold for harming children, they can be asked or coerced into submitting a DNA sample. No constitutional rights trampled, no new precedents set, no trampling of civil rights.


Again, HIPAA applies to doctors explicitly.

You really need to read the HIPAA, and what I wrote and asked. This may sound like nitpicking, but these are all material distinctions.

The HIPAA explicitly governs health insurance companies and providers. This may or may not overlap with doctors, but this is not a statute that codifies doctor-patient privilege.

I am going to quote for you U.S v. Bek, and bold for you the relevant parts.

" Bek cannot establish that the medical records were subject to any privilege of confidentiality.   Federal common law has not historically recognized a privilege between patients and physicians.   Northwestern Mem'l Hosp. v. Ashcroft, 362 F.3d 923, 926 (7th Cir.2004) ( “[T]he evidentiary privileges that are applicable to federal-question suits are given not by state law but by federal law, Fed.R.Evid. 501, which does not recognize a physician-patient (or hospital-patient) privilege.”);   see also Whalen v. Roe, 429 U.S. 589, 602 n. 28, 97 S.Ct. 869, 51 L.Ed.2d 64 (1977) ( “The physician-patient evidentiary privilege is unknown to the common law.”).   Bek acknowledges this shortcoming in his argument, but contends that we should find such a privilege here . . . .Indeed, in a decision issued after Jaffee, we declined to recognize such a privilege, see Northwestern Mem'l Hosp., 362 F.3d at 926, and we can find no reason to create one now.

 Additionally, in this context, HIPAA did not require patient authorization of the medical record disclosures.   As we have previously indicated, HIPAA did not give rise to a physician-patient or medical records privilege.   See Northwestern Mem'l Hosp., 362 F.3d at 926 (“We do not think HIPAA is rightly understood as an Act of Congress that creates a privilege.”).   It did, however, “create a procedure for obtaining authority to use medical records in litigation.”  Id. In this case, none of HIPAA's requirements regarding disclosures of patient information was transgressed."


HIPAA forbids covered entities from sharing your records, not doctors. The list of exceptions is also quite large. In fact, the only time authorization is explicitly required by the HIPAA is when marketing is involved.
 
Yeah, let's get back on track with the real solution, perverting the United States Constitution in fully-legal ways until men from the government are allowed to be left alone in rooms with all the little boys in America, viewing a series of images and listening to descriptions of various sexual acts with adults and children, male and female, while wearing devices that monitor blood flow to the little boy's penises.


And... did you just speculate that pedophilia might be caused by poverty?

Right, because that's what I said. Did I propose something unconstitutional? Did I propose we monitor little boys' penises, or are you just spouting more nonsense again?

And how did you come to the conclusion from the underlined, unless you (a) did not read my post and (b) did not read the post I was responding to.
 
Relative poverty will always exist, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that it is possible to eliminate dire poverty, food insecurity, school insecurity, the big stuff that is actual poverty. Of course some will always have more than others.

And poverty is linked to paedophilia now?

I was responding to emptyvessel, who was speculating that pedophiles who were convicted seemed to have some developmental deficiencies, which might be linked to poverty.

emptyvessel said:
I'm assuming the pedophiles were identified based on criminal convictions. People will rarely (read: never) simply acknowledge their pedophilia or volunteer for a study based on it. That being the case, what this data probably reflects is not something about pedophilia per se but rather about the subset of pedophiles who act on their "orientation." In that respect, it shouldn't at all be surprising that developmental deficiencies are observed because this would also be highly likely to correlate with deficient impulse control--what got them in trouble to begin with. In other words, the research--at least the bits I quoted--is not identifying something about pedophiles, but something about people with developmental problems much more generally. And this has implications for all kinds of criminal behavior, not just pedophilia. Most people who commit criminal acts are disabled in some way, often in subtle ways involving lack of impulse control that one wouldn't be likely to notice in an interaction on the street or in a store.

Obviously, pedophilia is problematic for society. But I think identifying and finding solutions for the underlying impulse control disorders is far more important for public safety. Poverty is understood to be a risk factor for developmental problems. Tackling poverty and inequality will do so much more than most people realize to avert the destruction to individual lives caused by criminal behavior of any kind.
 

GraveHorizon

poop meter feature creep
I had sexual experiences as a child, and I don't know how much it negatively affected me, but I do know some of my problems aren't caused by it specifically, and even existed long before then. But the stuff I took part in was with other kids around my age, and it was mutual, so maybe the issues people have after growing up are tied to more aggressive acts.
 

Cheerilee

Member
And how did you come to the conclusion from the underlined, unless you (a) did not read my post and (b) did not read the post I was responding to.

I was responding to emptyvessel, who was speculating that pedophiles who were convicted seemed to have some developmental deficiencies, which might be linked to poverty.

empty vessel said that pedophilia was "problematic for society". And he also said that the research in the OP might be skewed because it seems to deal with pedos who have developmental deficiencies and control issues, and that it's better to focus on control issues, which can be improved by reducing poverty.

You agreed that reduced poverty would improve social problems, possibly including pedophilia.

It's possible that you meant the rape of children (which is why I made it a question), but that's not what you said, and you've had some problems in this thread recognizing a difference between pedophilia and the rape of children.

Right, because that's what I said. Did I propose something unconstitutional? Did I propose we monitor little boys' penises, or are you just spouting more nonsense again?
You have an ugly view of the constitution (I wouldn't know if it's accurate) which would allow men, schoolboys even, to be rounded up and tested for pedophilia, using vague technology (and what I described is the technology that exists today, and I don't imagine the constitution cares very much what technology you have in mind), and if pedophilia is detected, you believe these people should be put on a watch list for rape (regardless of the odds of them raping anyone), and the forcible removal of their sex drives should be considered. Because you think they aren't getting enough sex, and that makes them a danger.

And you apparently don't believe that the same should hold true of other people who aren't getting enough sex (not even heterosexual male nurses who are liable to rape coma patients without legal consent), because... well they're not pedophiles.
 

KHarvey16

Member
The records can be held by contracted companies, and requested by the government, in the same vein of how SSI, SSA, Medical, Medicare, ADA cases etc. operate. A specific record for specific purposes would be something like requesting mental health evaluations for the purposes of this hypothetical Keep Kids Safe Act.

Also, 45 C.F.R. § 164.508(a)(2)(i)(A): . Notwithstanding any provision of this subpart, other than the transition provisions in § 164.532, a covered entity must obtain an authorization for any use or disclosure of psychotherapy notes, except:
(i) To carry out the following treatment, payment, or health care operations:
(A) Use by the originator of the psychotherapy notes for treatment;




Why are you so hung up on a blase use of "weird" when all preceding and all subsequent posts make it clear that the aim was to identify mentally ill people with the proclivity to rape children?

"No standard allows 'weird' to satisfy it it" is a straw-man.

Hypothetically, an expert must determine whether someone is a pedophile. Once identified, they can be registered. Once it is determined they are at a certain threshold for harming children, they can be asked or coerced into submitting a DNA sample. No constitutional rights trampled, no new precedents set, no trampling of civil rights.




You really need to read the HIPAA, and what I wrote and asked. This may sound like nitpicking, but these are all material distinctions.

The HIPAA explicitly governs health insurance companies and providers. This may or may not overlap with doctors, but this is not a statute that codifies doctor-patient privilege.

I am going to quote for you U.S v. Bek, and bold for you the relevant parts.

" Bek cannot establish that the medical records were subject to any privilege of confidentiality.   Federal common law has not historically recognized a privilege between patients and physicians.   Northwestern Mem'l Hosp. v. Ashcroft, 362 F.3d 923, 926 (7th Cir.2004) ( “[T]he evidentiary privileges that are applicable to federal-question suits are given not by state law but by federal law, Fed.R.Evid. 501, which does not recognize a physician-patient (or hospital-patient) privilege.”);   see also Whalen v. Roe, 429 U.S. 589, 602 n. 28, 97 S.Ct. 869, 51 L.Ed.2d 64 (1977) ( “The physician-patient evidentiary privilege is unknown to the common law.”).   Bek acknowledges this shortcoming in his argument, but contends that we should find such a privilege here . . . .Indeed, in a decision issued after Jaffee, we declined to recognize such a privilege, see Northwestern Mem'l Hosp., 362 F.3d at 926, and we can find no reason to create one now.

 Additionally, in this context, HIPAA did not require patient authorization of the medical record disclosures.   As we have previously indicated, HIPAA did not give rise to a physician-patient or medical records privilege.   See Northwestern Mem'l Hosp., 362 F.3d at 926 (“We do not think HIPAA is rightly understood as an Act of Congress that creates a privilege.”).   It did, however, “create a procedure for obtaining authority to use medical records in litigation.”  Id. In this case, none of HIPAA's requirements regarding disclosures of patient information was transgressed."


HIPAA forbids covered entities from sharing your records, not doctors. The list of exceptions is also quite large. In fact, the only time authorization is explicitly required by the HIPAA is when marketing is involved.

Doctors and doctor's offices are covered entities. And no, patient authorization is required in every case but the various exceptions. For instance law enforcement needs a warrant in order for a doctor to legally disclose your records without your consent. This was done in the case you cited, hence the line "none of HIPAA's requirements regarding disclosures of patient information was transgressed."

No where have you shown what allows them to acquire records in order to forcibly search, catalog and perform medical procedures. Nor have you shown how they can create a list which necessarily amounts to a release of patient's private medical information to anyone with access to that list.
 
empty vessel said that pedophilia was "problematic for society". And he also said that the research in the OP might be skewed because it seems to deal with pedos who have developmental deficiencies and control issues, and that it's better to focus on control issues, which can be improved by reducing poverty.

You agreed that reduced poverty would improve social problems, possibly including pedophilia.

It's possible that you meant the rape of children (which is why I made it a question), but that's not what you said, and you've had some problems in this thread recognizing a difference between pedophilia and the rape of children.

This would make sense, if (1) you ignored the context of my response; (2) pedophilia did not lead to child rape.


You have an ugly view of the constitution (I wouldn't know if it's accurate) which would allow men, schoolboys even, to be rounded up and tested for pedophilia, using vague technology (and what I described is the technology that exists today, and I don't imagine the constitution cares very much what technology you have in mind), and if pedophilia is detected, you believe these people should be put on a watch list for rape (regardless of the odds of them raping anyone), and the forcible removal of their sex drives should be considered. Because you think they aren't getting enough sex, and that makes them a danger.

The only relevant part you posted. If you don't know anything beyond a gradeschool education about the Constitution, then you shouldn't comment on it, should you.

Apparently you think people who want to rape children only have saintly wishes. You don't understand the law, you are incapable of structuring a coherent argument, why don't you read some more.


And you apparently don't believe that the same should hold true of other people who aren't getting enough sex (not even heterosexual male nurses who are liable to rape coma patients without legal consent), because... well they're not pedophiles.

Logically, why would you even mention this? I already shredded your false-equivalency before. I'll point you in the right direction: the red herring that you brought in (people who aren't getting "enough" sex), is that even tangentially related to the issue we are discussing? Protip: It is not. The point seemed to have flown far above your head.


Doctors and doctor's offices are covered entities. And no, patient authorization is required in every case but the various exceptions. For instance law enforcement needs a warrant in order for a doctor to legally disclose your records without your consent. This was done in the case you cited, hence the line "none of HIPAA's requirements regarding disclosures of patient information was transgressed."



Before I begin, I want to reiterate once again that (1) you don't know the legal process; (2) you are incapable of processing statutes and caselaw which are written in plain english; (3) you really need to stop making stuff up.

HIPAA only pertains to doctors and doctors' information regarding electronically transmitted information. This falls FAR short of doctor-patient privilege, which as I pointed out to you, U.S v. Bek explicitly denied.

Law enforcement does not need a "warrant" to obtain records. They needed a warrant to search the premises. Alternatively, these records can be subpoenaed. This is not related to HIPAA itself, but basic civil and criminal procedure.

The list of exceptions is large. http://www.hhs.gov/hipaafaq/permitted/index.html.

In short, the HIPAA, as I've said from the beginning, does not provide doctor-patient privilege. At all. That's the end of that discussion, isn't it?

No where have you shown what allows them to acquire records in order to forcibly search, catalog and perform medical procedures. Nor have you shown how they can create a list which necessarily amounts to a release of patient's private medical information to anyone with access to that list.

If you combined everything I said regarding the subject, you should have been able to connect the dots without hand-holding.

"Forcibly search" + "catalog"= warrants, subpoenas, background checks, DNA sample requests from governmental employee applicants/infractions/misdemeanors/felons/the list is broad.

"Perform medical procedures"= Plea-bargain system

The underlined is irrelevant, and I don't need to address, but I will. The list does not "necessarily" amount to a release of patient's private medical information. It's narrowly tailored.
 
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