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[Keyu]

The thread's overriding point of view.

Completely ignoring the post lunar was misrepresenting in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Pretty clear this thread isn't a discussion anymore (if it ever was one). Its just people arguing against straw men and generalizations. You'll all excuse me if I see myself out.

 

[Mononoke]

Which is why I think it would be best if there were more guerilla games writing websites.

I kind of would like to see these people sit down with gamers and have a one on one debate about this. I feel like, it's so easy to be vile and combative when you are writing something vs. actually having to face a person and debate face to face. It's just frustrating to read these kind of pieces, because you want to be able to explain why it's not true, or why their view is flawed, but you can't do shit about it. And all the while the rest of the industry follows suit echoing the same thing (as if it must be true).

 

[Verger]

You know I was wondering if all these so-called "journalists" who decry "gamers" and the culture would still show their faces at game conventions like PAX/E3/GDC, since they think the people who line up in those queues are stupid. But then I saw this a few pages back:

Shameless. I wonder if any of these people would have the guts to try and preach their spiel in-person to the crowds at PAX. And then I saw the pastebin of all the "gamers are dead" crowd, and all I can think of is how they pretty much just proved how much nepotism(?) is in the game journalist crowd since it all feels like a coordinated effort with so many articles being posted on the same day.
http://pastebin.com/h7K4P9n0

And then I had the misfortune of finding the #DescribeAGamerIn4Words thing. I'm so glad I do not use twitter (and wish the game journalists would think about getting off twitter themselves). Still I just had to capture one charming item:

"Rainbows and sunshine" indeed.

 

[Gsak]

Then again Gsak is saying some shit I don't even understand lol.

English is not my native language

 

[7threst]

A line must be drawn though. Case in point, according to Alexander, whoever has a different opinion, is a "moron" https://www.facebook.com/laleighlulelo/posts/10154535697790717

And we need to show that we won't be pushed around, insulted, made scapegoats for the "sins of the few". In the end, it is us who pay her income, with our clicks. So yeah, as "customers" we have the right to complain to the management. And despite what such people think, they are definitely NOT the management.

Somehow, I feel that doing something like complaining about her, is giving her the idea she is actually as important she seems to think she is. Maybe it's better to just not do that and let her actions speak for themselves.

I'd rather give attention to writers open to criticism and debate, and actually interested in what their readers have to say.

I'm here in this thread though, giving Leigh Alexander exactly the attention she so desperately seeks....

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Really? Because I didn't even notice that post until now and can't say it was lost between similar ones. I think you are being unfair.

No, I'm being fair. The overriding theme of the thread is "don't talk shit."

I didn't say it was a meritless theme, and have also pointed out previously exactly HOW a forceful, abrasive approach can (and has) backfired in some situations. But that doesn't mean that "She shouldn't have talked shit" hasn't basically become the theme as the thread has gone on. "She shouldn't have talked shit" is absolutely part of the main thrust of the thread. People are explaining their various reasons for why she shouldn't have talked shit, and are holding up other examples of people dissenting in milder ways.

Personally, I believe a little shit-talk, applied judiciously, can actually help motivate people into looking at themselves, however.

 

[Brakke]

Can you demonstrate it?

There are so many cases:

Leigh herself was harassed pretty badly after doing poorly on the show. Recently when a woman brought up their hiring policies she was harassed so much that the staff of the site were publicly begging their fan base to leave her alone.

I personally like the GB guys probably the most of any gaming site, but their fan base can be pretty putrid at times.

The GB audience doesn't even qualify as human?

"Gamers" is a strict, and minuscule, subset of humans.

A line must be drawn though. Case in point, according to Alexander, whoever has a different opinion, is a "moron" https://www.facebook.com/laleighlulelo/posts/10154535697790717

And we need to show that we won't be pushed around, insulted, made scapegoats for the "sins of the few". In the end, it is us who pay her income, with our clicks. So yeah, as "customers" we have the right to complain to the management. And despite what such people think, they are definitely NOT the management.

Do you even hear yourself? She isn't saying "people with different opinions are morons". You're choosing to read it like that. Her twitter feed is literally filled with morons. And your sober, measured response to someone saying they're being harassed is to... harass them more?

 

[unbias]

Actions must be taken towards anyone spilling hate. Men, women, audience, writers... doesn't matter, no exceptions, fair and square.

And certainly not as a measure of censorship. It's all about respecting the other person. Do not do what you don't want others to do to you.

And it's not like people haven't tried to make a calm, rational discussion. But you can see how they were denied.

Dude, you're not really even saying anything here... Like at all. Either talk about the merits of an argument or leave the semantics of what you are doing to tv evangelists. It isn't a good look.

 

[Lime]

I can only find 1 real case study, and it is a very small one that has yet to be pier reviewed, that I know of. I mean, unless you are taking into account all those aggression case studies, that didn't survive pier review? Bigotry is a problem, period, full stop. Saying people who play video games have a statistical higher average of bigotry is... well ridiculous, unless you bring something that shows it is more of a problem statistically in the game consumer space. And honestly, I'd say the lack of inclusiveness is a fundamental issue in the industry(devs, pubs, press), and a systemic problem inside the publisher and development world, that gets promoted by the press.

I mean, unless you are willing to claim that gay/bi/black/women/and ect, are in any way represented in developer, publisher, or press houses, then you would have to say the issues are more structural in the industry, and not actually the consumers fault. This is even ignoring the demographic switches in consumers DESPITE the fact that the industry is much further behind then the consuming audience.

I mean Christopher J. Ferguson of Texas A&M International University does a good job here at exposing issues with the previous aggressive research, that can be applied to the current mentality of the games and the consumers who buy them. Because bigotry is an issue in the real world and the internet in general, doesnt mean you dont try and do anything about it, that would be stupid. You have to figure out how to differentiate yourself as an industry, and the way you do that is diversity in employment. Something this industry severely lacks.

When you accuse an entire segment of having a systemic problem, more so then the current social pop culture, you need to have something of substance and that can be empirically pointed to, to show it is an issue with that group of people. And right now there is nothing of substance, that I can see, that shows that the issues of bigotry is more of an issue in the game consumer(in fact I'd argue the game consumer is less prone to bigotry from my personal experiences, compared to a lot of other hobbies).

You could only find one? Your search is either superficial or done too quick. Here are some references dealing with video game culture's bigotry and inequality, ranging in quality and validity. Most, but not all, are peer-reviewed.:

• Barrett, P. 2006. “White Thumbs, Black Bodies: Race, Violence, and Neoliberal Fantasies in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.” The Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies 28 (1): 95–119.
• Barton, Matthew D. 2004. “Gay Characters in Video Games.” Armchair Arcade, March. http://www.armchairarcade.com/armchair-mirror/content638c.html?article.27.
• Beasley, B., and T. C. Standley. 2002. “Shirts vs. Skins: Clothing as an Indicator of Gender Role Stereotyping in Video Games.” Mass Communication & Society 5 (3): 279–93.
• Behm-Morawitz, Elizabeth, and Dana Mastro. 2009. “The Effects of the Sexualization of Female Video Game Characters on Gender Stereotyping and Female Self-Concept.” Sex Roles 61 (11-12): 808–23. doi:10.1007/s11199-009-9683-8.
• Brock, André. 2011. “‘“When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong”’: Resident Evil 5, Racial Representation, and Gamers.” Games and Culture 6 (5): 429–52. doi:10.1177/1555412011402676.
• Bryce, Jo, and Jason Rutter. 2002. “Killing like a Girl: Gendered Gaming and Girl Gamers’ Visibility.” In Paper Presented at the Computer Games and Digital Culture Conferences. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.97.9334.
• Burgess, M. C. R., K. E. Dill, S. P. Stermer, S. R. Burgess, and B. P. Brown. 2011. “Playing with Prejudice: The Prevalence and Consequences of Racial Stereotypes in Video Games.” Media Psychology 14 (3): 289–311.
• Cassell, J., and H. Jenkins. 1998. From Barbie® to Mortal Kombat: Gender and Computer Games. MIT Press. http://www.google.com/books?hl=da&l...ts=pfiKVzD1yi&sig=I9fEaEG6R9XOM5htBE_DyIJvmAY.
• Consalvo, M. 2003. “Hot Dates and Fairy-Tale Romances: Studying Sexuality in Video Games.” The Video Game Theory Reader 1: 171–94.
• Crawford, Garry. 2012. Video Gamers. London; New York: Routledge.
• Cruea, Mark, and Sung-Yeon Park. 2012. “Gender Disparity in Video Game Usage: A Third-Person Perception-Based Explanation.” Media Psychology 15 (1): 44–67. doi:10.1080/15213269.2011.648861.
• Dickey, Michele D. 2006. “Girl Gamers: The Controversy of Girl Games and the Relevance of Female-Oriented Game Design for Instructional Design.” British Journal of Educational Technology 37 (5): 785–93. doi:10.1111/j.1467-8535.2006.00561.x.
• Dietrich, David R. 2013. “Avatars of Whiteness: Racial Expression in Video Game Characters.” Sociological Inquiry 83 (1): 82–105.
• Dietz, T. L. 1998. “An Examination of Violence and Gender Role Portrayals in Video Games: Implications for Gender Socialization and Aggressive Behavior.” Sex Roles 38 (5): 425–42.
• Dill, K. E., D. A. Gentile, W. A. Richter, and J. C. Dill. 2005. “Violence, Sex, Race, and Age in Popular Video Games: A Content Analysis.” http://psycnet.apa.org/books/11213/008.
• Dill, Karen E., and Kathryn P. Thill. 2007. “Video Game Characters and the Socialization of Gender Roles: Young People’s Perceptions Mirror Sexist Media Depictions.” Sex Roles 57 (11-12): 851–64. doi:10.1007/s11199-007-9278-1.
• Downs, E., and S. L. Smith. 2010. “Keeping Abreast of Hypersexuality: A Video Game Character Content Analysis.” Sex Roles 62 (11): 721–33.
• Dunlop, J. C. 2007. “The US Video Game Industry: Analyzing Representation of Gender and Race.” International Journal of Technology and Human Interaction (IJTHI) 3 (2): 96–109.
• Embrick, David G., Talmadge J. Wright, and András Lukács. 2012. Social Exclusion, Power, and Video Game Play: New Research in Digital Media and Technology. Lexington Books. http://www.google.com/books?hl=da&l...ts=Q8HpqBD6sQ&sig=pHQMNm-ZNk5rC6zYbPHYSHBoXvA.
• Everett, Anna, and S. Craig Watkins. 2008. “The Power of Play: The Portrayal and Performance of Race in Video Games.” The Ecology of Games: Connecting Youth, Games, and Learning, 141–64.
• Fox, J., and J. N. Bailenson. 2009. “Virtual Virgins and Vamps: The Effects of Exposure to Female Characters’ Sexualized Appearance and Gaze in an Immersive Virtual Environment.” Sex Roles 61 (3): 147–57.
• Frasca, Gonzalo. 2001. “Videogames of the Oppressed: Videogames as a Means for Critical Thinking and Debate”. Georgia Institute of Technology. http://ludology.org/articles/thesis/FrascaThesisVideogames.pdf.
• Fron, Janine, Tracy Fullerton, Jacquelyn Ford Morie, and Celia Pearce. 2007. “The Hegemony of Play.” In Situated Play: Proceedings of Digital Games Research Association 2007 Conference. Tokyo, Japan, 1–10. http://ict.usc.edu/pubs/The Hegemony of Play.pdf.
• Game Developer Magazine. 2013. “Game Developer Salary Survey 2013.” http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/GD_Mag_Archives/GDM_April_2013.pdf.
• Griffiths, M., and A. Lewis. 2011. “Confronting Gender Representation: A Qualitative Study of the Experiences and Motivations of Female Casual-Gamers.” Aloma: Revista de Psicologia, Ciències de l’Educació I de l’Esport, no. 28. http://revistaaloma.net/index.php/aloma/article/view/37.
• IGDA. 2005. “Game Developer Demographics Report | IGDA.” http://legacy.igda.org/game-developer-demographics-report.
• Ivory, James D. 2006. “Still a Man’s Game: Gender Representation in Online Reviews of Video Games.” Mass Communication and Society 9 (1): 103–14. doi:10.1207/s15327825mcs0901_6.
• Jenkins, H., and J. Cassell. 2008. From Quake Grrls to Desperate Housewives: A Decade of Gender and Computer Games. The MIT Press.
• Jensen, C. 2012. “Deconstructing the Roles of Women in Video Games.” Accessed December 12. http://www.acrobatplanet.com/go/Deconstructing_the_Roles_of_Women_in_Video_Games.pdf.
• Jenson, Jennifer, and Suzanne de Castell. 2010. “Gender, Simulation, and Gaming: Research Review and Redirections.” Simulation & Gaming 41 (1): 51–71. doi:10.1177/1046878109353473.
• Kafai, Yasmin B., Carrie Heeter, Jill Denner, and Jennifer Y. Sun. 2008. “Preface: Pink, Purple, Casual, or Mainstream Games: Moving beyond the Gender Divide.” Beyond Barbie and Mortal Combat. New Perspectives on Gender and Gaming. The MIT Press: London. http://mitpress2.mit.edu/books/chapters/0262113198pref1.pdf.
• Kowert, Rachel. 2014. “The Gamer Identity Crisis « First Person Scholar.” http://www.firstpersonscholar.com/the-gamer-identity-crisis/.
• Kuznekoff, Jeffrey H., and Lindsey M. Rose. 2013. “Communication in Multiplayer Gaming: Examining Player Responses to Gender Cues.” New Media & Society 15 (4): 541–56. doi:10.1177/1461444812458271.
• Leonard, D. 2004. “High Tech Blackface: Race, Sports, Video Games and Becoming the Other.” In Vol. 4.
• Leonard, D. J. 2005. “To the White Extreme: Conquering Athletic Space, White Manhood and Racing Virtual Reality.” Digital Gameplay: Essays on the Nexus of Game and Gamer, 110–29.
• Leonard, David. 2003. “‘Live in Your World, Play in Ours’: Race, Video Games, and Consuming the Other.” SIMILE: Studies In Media & Information Literacy Education 3 (4): 1–9.
• ———. 2006. “Virtual Gangstas, Coming to a Suburban House near You: Demonization, Commodification, and Policing Blackness.” In The Meaning and Culture of Grand Theft Auto.
• Leonard, David J. 2006. “Not a Hater, Just Keepin’ It Real The Importance of Race- and Gender-Based Game Studies.” Games and Culture 1 (1): 83–88. doi:10.1177/1555412005281910.
• Mou, Y., and W. Peng. 2008. “Gender and Racial Stereotypes in Popular Video Games.” Handbook of Research on Effective Electronic Gaming in Education, 922–37.
• Pearce, Celia. 2009. Communities of Play: Emergent Cultures in Multiplayer Games and Virtual Worlds. Cambridge, MA: The MIT Press. http://www.google.com/books?hl=en&l...ts=-FC62VBjfC&sig=BsQriYNQycKbV6Y3O3jJwGXkiDU.
• Shaw, Adrienne. 2009. “Putting the Gay in Games Cultural Production and GLBT Content in Video Games.” Games and Culture 4 (3): 228–53. doi:10.1177/1555412009339729.
• ———. 2010a. “Toward an Ethic of Representation: Ethics and the Representation of.” Designing Games for Ethics: Models, Techniques and Frameworks, 159.
• ———. 2010b. “What Is Video Game Culture? Cultural Studies and Game Studies.” Games and Culture 5 (4): 403–24. doi:10.1177/1555412009360414.
• ———. 2012. “Do You Identify as a Gamer? Gender, Race, Sexuality, and Gamer Identity.” New Media & Society 14 (1): 28–44.
• Šisler, Vít. 2008. “Digital Arabs Representation in Video Games.” European Journal of Cultural Studies 11 (2): 203–20. doi:10.1177/1367549407088333.
• Steinkuehler, Constance A., and Dmitri Williams. 2006. “Where Everybody Knows Your (screen) Name: Online Games as ‘third Places.’” Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication 11 (4): 885–909.
• Taylor, T. L. 2008. “Becoming a Player: Networks, Structure, and Imagined Futures.” Beyond Barbie and Mortal Kombat: New Perspectives on Gender and Gaming, 51–65.
• Thornham, Helen. 2011. Ethnographies of the Videogame: Gender, Narrative and Praxis. Ashgate Publishing. http://books.google.com/books?hl=da...ts=KlI19hECB0&sig=5B5o_0HE3tEKswhpe6fnQjnBiCA.
• Williams, Dmitri, Nicole Martins, Mia Consalvo, and James D. Ivory. 2009. “The Virtual Census: Representations of Gender, Race and Age in Video Games.” New Media & Society 11 (5): 815–34. doi:10.1177/1461444809105354.
• Zaremba, Jutta. 2012. “The Gender-Offensive: Female Gaming Cultures Between Shooters and Marketing.” In Computer Games and New Media Cultures, edited by Johannes Fromme and Alexander Unger, 443–63. Springer Netherlands. http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-2777-9_28.

EDIT: And the above doesn't even include the tons of online articles that share and describe the experiences of people who are not straight white males.

Also, as an aside, you don't deal with bigotry with more bigotry, that just creates a toxic environment that nobody wins in, and this article has undertones of that, with a mentality that fosters it.

I don't disagree, but neither do I fault Alexander for conveying her points like that, considering the harassment that she and many, many, many others experience. Besides, I assume that people usually read articles in good faith and with understanding.

 

[Riposte]

No, I'm being fair. The overriding theme of the thread is "don't talk shit."

I didn't say there was no merit in that theme, and have also pointed out previously exactly HOW a forceful, abrasive approach can (and has) backfired in some situations. But it's basically the theme as the thread has gone on.

"She shouldn't have talked shit" is absolutely part of the main thrust of the thread. People are explaining their various reasons for why she shouldn't have talked shit, and are holding up other examples of people dissenting in milder ways.

Hmm...

That was a really weird way to make that point, but fair enough. Said like that, I can't really disagree.

 

[Dugna]

Maybe we should start sending emails to the advertisers, and the companies. Because apparently, all that some people can understand, are clicks, media exposure and of course, money.

4chan is already on that and they're actually getting some responses, people are rightfully pissed.

 

[Gsak]

Do you even hear yourself? She isn't saying "people with different opinions are morons". You're choosing to read it like that. Her twitter feed is literally filled with morons. And your sober, measured response to someone saying they're being harassed is to... harass them more?

Excuse me? When did I say "harass"? In case you didn't get it from my previous posts, let me make it clear: I AM AGAINST HARASSING, PERIOD.

I saw her Twitter too. Yeah there are some idiots. But all of them? "Filled with" them? How is it "moronic" to call out someone who stereotypes you and insults you?

 

[Nephrahim]

You know I was wondering if all these so-called "journalists" who decry "gamers" and the culture would still show their faces at game conventions like PAX/E3/GDC, since they think the people who line up in those queues are stupid. But then I saw this a few pages back:

Shameless. I wonder if any of these people would have the guts to try and preach their spiel in-person to the crowds at PAX. And then I saw the pastebin of all the "gamers are dead" crowd, and all I can think of is how they pretty much just proved how much nepotism(?) is in the game journalist crowd since it all feels like a coordinated effort with so many articles being posted on the same day.
http://pastebin.com/h7K4P9n0

If there's one thing I would describe gamers as, it's fickle and short-sighted. We all remember the boycott MW2 campaign. There's no reason not to apply it to this.

As angry as some people will get about this, most will just forget it and not think about it in a few weeks.

 

[tengiants]

I kind of would like to see these people sit down with gamers and have a one on one debate about this. I feel like, it's so easy to be vile and combative when you are writing something vs. actually having to face a person and debate face to face. It's just frustrating to read these kind of pieces, because you want to be able to explain why it's not true, or why their view is flawed, but you can't do shit about it. And all the while the rest of the industry follows suit echoing the same thing (as if it must be true).

Who can really represent the face of gamers for them to rebuttal? The journalists? No. The game developers? Maybe, but maybe some random person off the street too.

There is no real gamer demographic and so it feels that some of these journalists and feminists are taking swings against a boogeyman. They are probably making a lot of ad money in the process.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

That was a really weird way to make that point,

I don't know about that. It was maybe one of the most direct and to-the-point posts I've made in this thread, really.

"She shouldn't talk shit" is essentially the theme of this thread now. There's a lot to unpack in that particular thesis, sure.

 

[allftw]

This whole thread reads like one big failure in communication.

Also I'm amazed at how such a just cause can be twisted into something so fucked up. I feel like everyone has to take a step back and take a good look at themselves.

 

[RageBot]

I think lot of what has happened with Quinnspiracy its just people buying into the narrative that she is a horrible person and needs to be shamed online. Then started looking everywhere for accusations that have turned to be all fake and laughable.

I thought that it was pretty much proven that she did do as much as she could to ruin the first TFYC (there's a picture somewhere in this thread where she writes that she DDOSed them).
Also, I didn't know that there was any evidance that she really was hacked by /v/ (it really does look like a fake hack, with "The head mod of 4Chan.org/v/" thing.

And one last thing - the "fact" that she was raided on by Wizardchan still haven't been proven by itself, and yet it is used as some sort of justification for her (alleged) actions, while you have pictures like these:

http://imgur.com/a/4VOcx

And videos like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tT_O4pU7aM

That show a lof of evidance to the contrary

Any way to debunk any of these things?

The fact that things like this are ignored, to me, is an evidance that the gaming media (again) doesn't care much about truth and debate (i'll happily be proven wrong about these things), as much as it is about agenda and money.

 

[Moral Panic]

The thread's overriding point of view.

I don't know why I am so surprised at the brazenness of it. I feel sorry for women in the industry. Every industry has it's bad apples but the widespread and deep integration of it in every gaming community is just sad.

One can only hope that the hard push back from these people is a sign that change is on the horizon and they are just acting out because they cannot fight against it.

 

[Verger]

stuff

I don't disagree, but neither do I fault Alexander for conveying her points like that, considering the harassment that she and many, many, many others experience. Besides, I assume that people usually read articles in good faith and with understanding.

You do not get excused for acting like an asshole no matter what your "past" is, that's not how normal civilized society works. And get off your high horse already with your subtle dig at people not "understanding" Leigh's article. We've had plenty of pages with point by point, paragraph by paragraph examination of her writing and almost everyone cannot figure out just what point she is trying to make here. She decries gaming "Culture" but does not define what that is aside from stereotyping people for their looks.

As far as your "list" goes. People were asking about "case studies" and scientific evidence regarding gamers. Not opinionated articles.

 

[SliceSabre]

I don't know about that. It was maybe one of the most direct and to-the-point posts I've made in this thread, really.

"She shouldn't talk shit" is essentially the theme of this thread now. There's a lot to unpack in that particular thesis, sure.

You're simply choosing that post because it is low hanging fruit to fit your narrative. If you hadn't seen that post you would have never said anything because people have been civil the past few pages and you didn't have anything easy to latch onto.

 

[unbias]

You could only find one? Your search is either superficial or done too quick. Here are some references dealing with video game culture's bigotry and inequality, ranging in quality and validity. Most, but not all, are peer-reviewed.:


I don't disagree, but neither do I fault Alexander for conveying her points like that, considering the harassment that she and many, many, many others experience. Besides, I assume that people usually read articles in good faith and with understanding.

I dont see a case study in any of that, that shows bigotry is an issue with the game consumer... I saw a whole lot of stuff that could probably be applied to the industry, though? I thought I was pretty clear in what I was talking about, when I said case study and the accusation that the game consumer is more bigoted. Are you trying to be dishonest in what I was talking about?

If anything you are strengthening my point, with all those articles(from what I can tell almost all of them are articles). The problem is an issue in the industry, not the consumer. Blaming the consumer for what the devs make, the pubs support, and the press regurgitates is an odd endeavor. Specially when I assume you are a consumer?

 

[Mononoke]

I thought that it was pretty much proven that she did do as much as she could to ruin the first TFYC (there's a picture somewhere in this thread where she writes that she DDOSed them).
Also, I didn't know that there was any evidance that she really was hacked by /v/ (it really does look like a fake hack, with "The head mod of 4Chan.org/v/" thing.

And one last thing - the "fact" that she was raided on by Wizardchan still haven't been proven by itself, and yet it is used as some sort of justification for her (alleged) actions, while you have pictures like these:

http://imgur.com/a/4VOcx

And videos like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tT_O4pU7aM

That show a lof of evidance to the contrary

Any way to debunk any of these things?

The fact that things like this are ignored, to me, is an evidance that the gaming media (again) doesn't care much about truth and debate (i'll happily be proven wrong about these things), as much as it is about agenda and money.

And don't forget, the allegations that she abused mental illness (and is an activist for mental illness). And that her friends shouted down a potential victim of sexual abuse by Quinn. I agree that a lot of the things surrounding the Quinn thing (and how the info was exposed) was terrible. I in no way support doxxing, harassment (death/rape threats). But there was some pretty disturbing things that came out all of this, and not a single journalist batted an eye. Anyone criticizing her for her sex life should not be listened to (it has nothing to do with the industry, and or the products she makes). But some of these other things, are pretty damn questionable.

I'm still sick over the Wozniak thing. That Fish and other members of the press supported what he did, sickens me.

 

[Riposte]

I don't know about that. It was maybe one of the most direct and to-the-point posts I've made in this thread, really.

"She shouldn't talk shit" is essentially the theme of this thread now. There's a lot to unpack in that particular thesis, sure.

Well, following the quote line, I thought "she" was Zoe Quinn and the poster referenced here was very carelessly saying doxxing, harassment, etc. was the consequence of talking shit, almost in way that endorses it. When you say that's the overriding point of the thread, in a thread basically about how terrible gamers are because of that exact scenario (now this is Alexander talking shit), well, it got confusing. Not to hammer this point any further, that's just why I was surprised.

EDIT: It seems Moral Panic might be confused too?

 

[APF]

I would consider GAF a community, and definitely certain persistent threads have communities building around them; we actually are talking with each other, getting together (virtually and IRL), based on our shared interests / virtual proximity. Gaming in general, I actually agree that there's not a real common group there--definitely not now and likely not ever--and certainly not the stereotype of basement-dwelling etc young dudes that people market to. I'm mostly a single-player gamer, I have little in common with and have little exposure to / connection with folks who are hardcore MOBA / Madden / etc players, other than superficial things (we both have consoles or gaming PCs). Even if I play CoD or something, I don't really feel like I'm in a "community" with people who also happen to have played that game, especially if they're like most people and only really touch the MP--much like I don't feel like I'm in a "community" with Farmville folks etc. I think this is largely what folks are responding to when they talk about the idea of the "gamer" identity dying (full disclosure: I couldn't really make it through all of the OP / her article); it's a hobby that so many folks share it can't be reduced to some specific niche people. At least, that's how I'm starting to see it, especially after the last couple of weeks.

 

[Tetsuo9]

snip.

She explained it herself: http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/96115946094/final-thoughts-on-this-whole-kerfuffle

 

[hoopvillian]

This whole thread reads like one big failure in communication.

Also I'm amazed at how such a just cause can be twisted into something so fucked up. I feel like everyone has to take a step back and take a good look at themselves.

I know a lot of us that are out of college work IT, engineering, and other technical jobs. We make good money. Instead of going to bars and clubs, we game to relax. Stepping back and reflecting on that, I think we're doing alright.

Now some mercenary writer that gets paid per word decided to insult us all, and we're not taking it. Nothing wrong with defending yourself.

 

[Gsak]

Dude, you're not really even saying anything here... Like at all. Either talk about the merits of an argument or leave the semantics of what you are doing to tv evangelists. It isn't a good look.

Hope you did not come to that conclusion just by one of my posts on the matter. Even so, what exactly do you consider "tv evangelists" talk?

 

[Mononoke]

She explained it herself: http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/96115946094/final-thoughts-on-this-whole-kerfuffle

She really didn't address the Wozniak abuse claim, or why she found it okay to shout him down.

 

[Kinyou]

"Gamers" is a strict, and minuscule, subset of humans.

*what you define as gamers

 

[Lime]

As far as your "list" goes. People were asking about "case studies" and scientific evidence regarding gamers. Not opinionated articles.

"opinionated articles". Most of those listed are peer-reviewed academic articles.

I'm so close to being done with this thread. Some seem to use this as an outlet or catharsis or maybe even excuse for piling against public figures/people/viewpoints who advocate more inclusion and diversity in video games culture.

I dont see a case study in any of that, that shows bigotry is an issue with the game consumer... I saw a whole lot of stuff that could probably be applied to the industry, though? I thought I was pretty clear in what I was talking about, when I said case study and the accusation that the game consumer is more bigoted. Are you trying to be dishonest in what I was talking about?

If anything you are strengthening my point, with all those articles(from what I can tell almost all of them are articles). The problem is an issue in the industry, not the consumer. Blaming the consumer for what the devs make, the pubs support, and the press regurgitates is an odd endeavor. Specially when I assume you are a consumer?

I'm strengthening your point? There are no case studies in all the articles listed? Okay, this is too much for me.

 

[Ponn]

WTF is this shit

The thread's overriding point of view.

Before people start painting the narrative of this thread, though that person put it badly (funny how that works huh?) The insinuation being hinted at here is not that people are deriding her for speaking her mind on the subject in the industry but doing it in an antagonistic, hostile and insulting manner to a large group of subjectively described people in stereotypes and shaming them. To do so should expect a negative reaction, and maybe even in certain positions where creating controversy might be beneficial to you even dare I say expect it.

If said poster is proposing its okay to make hostile threats or the behavior we have seen towards others like Anita then no thats wrong and though I haven't seen anyone in this thread calling for that it should be denounced. It's wrong and no one should be ok with that just like some people shouldn't be ok and defend people who use insulting, hostile and shaming language to make a point. No other group, gender or race discussion would that shit be acceptable but hey you know... just fall back bunch of

 

[Tetsuo9]

She really didn't address the Wozniak abuse claim, or why she found it okay to shout him down.

Opening statement: "I’ve said my piece about my personal life and that holds true. I have zero interest in ever discussing my sex or love life publicly on other people’s terms."

 

[UrbanRats]

No, I'm being fair. The overriding theme of the thread is "don't talk shit."

I didn't say it was a meritless theme, and have also pointed out previously exactly HOW a forceful, abrasive approach can (and has) backfired in some situations. But that doesn't mean that "She shouldn't have talked shit" hasn't basically become the theme as the thread has gone on. "She shouldn't have talked shit" is absolutely part of the main thrust of the thread. People are explaining their various reasons for why she shouldn't have talked shit, and are holding up other examples of people dissenting in milder ways.

Personally, I believe a little shit-talk, applied judiciously, can actually help motivate people into looking at themselves, however.

i found some of the points brought up in the article problematic regardless of tone (if that's what you mean by "talking shit").

 

[Mononoke]

Opening statement: "I’ve said my piece about my personal life and that holds true. I have zero interest in ever discussing my sex or love life publicly on other people’s terms."

Yeah, but this isn't her sex life...this is someone making a very serious allegation that she sexually abused him. And Phil + other journalists shouted him down and made him be quiet at the risk of losing his job.

Are you really equating that to her...sexual life. I mean, really. Do we really find that kind of behavior acceptable? Do we not find it...bizarre that journalists are SUPPORTING this abusive behavior, because they are friends with the person being accused? That to me is very disturbing.

EDIT: But I can agree that if the TFYC stuff has been dealt with, then really all that is left is to question Quinn's credibility as an activist. You can look at the allegations of abusing mental illness. And her actions when she and her friends supported shouting down someone for making an allegation they were sexually abused. But these are all just allegations and actions, and really up to the individual to decide for themselves how they view her.

But I still find the actions of fish/journalists to be really disturbing behavior.

 

[Foffy]

Posting confidential/internal email...nice job at burning bridges in the industry.

In any industry worth a shit, that would be an issue.

In this one? Probably a non-issue...

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Video game culture has a problem when it comes to bigotry. After all the numerous cases, studies, and articles everyone should realize this. Denying the presence of this implicitly contributes to further marginalization and exclusion of other people.

I wasn't aware there'd been "numerous" academic studies regarding video game culture's "problem with bigotry." Care to cite your sources?

 

[Cartman86]

The rational approach was link to her rebruttal post. The irrational approach is calling him a dipshit.

My only point (which someone else has outlined previously) is that we are sitting here gnashing teeth over the tone of this. Getting upset when a women who is constantly harassed in an industry dominated by men decides to take a pot shot at an ass hole. Is this the thing worth spending brain power on?

It's unfortunate that the death and rape threat phase of this has happened. The threats themselves are horrible but just like the last half dozen times this has happened people spend a lot of time trying to distance themselves from those people. The conversion changes to tone and how they aren't actually representative etc. However, the the substance of the conversation before the threats came wasn't much different. So many who just want to have a rational conversation are oblivious to the fact that it's already been discussed. Games have terrible representations of minorities. Video Games are a boys club. It requires thinking about game content, hiring, and the culture. It's easy for most everyone to distance themselves from the death threat folks, but to support this? This is the real problem people have, and if we found ourselves with no death threats we would find ourselves right back there. A place that has just as much passion. This is a place where you would see the true colors of a lot of gamers.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You're simply choosing that post because it is low hanging fruit to fit your narrative.

I saw that post and saw a decent opportunity to comment. I didn't respond to previous pages 1) because I had just started reading what had happened since I left the discussion last night and 2) There wasn't anything that I could have responded with that wouldn't have essentially been repeating something I'd said (in greater detail) previously in the thread, and practically - expecting anyone joining in at this point to go back 8-10 pages to read those responses is not the wisest expectation.

But that post provided me an opportunity to directly state my thoughts in response to a question being asked fairly directly, and to maybe open a new line of dialogue regarding this most recent branch of the conversation, one that's unfolded in full over the course of the last few pages of "civil" discussion

 

[Riposte]

"Gamers" is a strict, and minuscule, subset of humans.

How you would you define a gamer? Perhaps in reference to this:

A. "Gamers are over" - gaming is moving away from gamers, who have been defined as important enough to have the industry pander to them in at least some respect. The article references, quite vaguely, an assortment of qualities you could pin on NeoGAF members or similar enthusiasts. See my previous post where I broke down her descriptions of a gamer (and references of importance).

B. Gamers are %#$& - the strong trend currently ongoing that is shitting on gamers. (See: #DescribeAGamerIn4Words tweets posted in this thread, which is some hefty duty hating)

Is everyone that is Gamer A deserving of the treatment of Gamer B (or should say guilty of what has drawn ire to Gamer B)? Does Gamer B hold the qualities and (waning) importance of Gamer A?

 

[Dugna]

She really didn't address the Wozniak abuse claim, or why she found it okay to shout him down.

Or the the complete way that she used a board of actually depressed people to promote her game about freaking depression which is screwed up, there is no proof what so ever Wizardchan attacked her and the whole damn media jumped on her side just because of her word and no proof.

 

[Verger]

Just listened to this which was posted above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tT_O4pU7aM

Wow. I mean, if any part of this is true, talk about shameful (kind of OT though, so I won't comment further, but damn).

Or the the complete way that she used a board of actually depressed people to promote her game about freaking depression which is screwed up, there is no proof what so ever Wizardchan attacked her and the whole damn media jumped on her side just because of her word and no proof.

Oh, I guess this is the incident in question.

Anyway, that's more on Zoe, where as this thread is about Leigh, and journalists.

 

[unbias]

"opinionated articles". Most of those listed are peer-reviewed academic articles.

I'm so close to being done with this thread. Some seem to use this as an outlet or catharsis or maybe even excuse for piling against public figures/people/viewpoints who advocate more inclusion and diversity in video games culture.



I'm strengthening your point? There are no case studies in all the articles listed? Okay, this is too much for me.

That show bigotry is more of an issue in the game consumer? No. And I didn't say none of them were studies, I said most of them are not. I see some thesis', articles on gender issues, and data analysts on the game developer. I'm not seeing anything that is a case study on game consumers bigotry vs pop culture or whatever. You made the claim it is an issue in the game culture, I'm assuming this was you inferring it is higher then current pop culture, correct? And if not, then explain what you are comparing game consumers to.

 

[Brakke]

You could only find one? Your search is either superficial or done too quick. Here are some references dealing with video game culture's bigotry and inequality, ranging in quality and validity. Most, but not all, are peer-reviewed.:

<huge damn list>

I don't disagree, but neither do I fault Alexander for conveying her points like that, considering the harassment that she and many, many, many others experience. Besides, I assume that people usually read articles in good faith and with understanding.

Lime
Hero
(Today, 10:43 AM)

Excuse me? When did I say "harass"? In case you didn't get it from my previous posts, let me make it clear: I AM AGAINST HARASSING, PERIOD.

I saw her Twitter too. Yeah there are some idiots. But all of them? "Filled with" them? How is it "moronic" to call out someone who stereotypes you and insults you?

How is mounting an assault on someone's livelihood over "having a different opinion than you" not harassment.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Dude, you're not really even saying anything here... Like at all. Either talk about the merits of an argument or leave the semantics of what you are doing to tv evangelists. It isn't a good look.

Actually he has hit the nail on the head. Equality is fair treatment for everyone. Lambasting and insulting people, all the way down to how they dress, is the exact opposite. I don't see how you've missed this fundamental point. Group A was wrong to do what they did, Group B was wrong to follow up with an attack. None of this justifies bullying on one side or another and such actions should be considered heinous. I would have agreed that the trolling which occurred was absolutely disgusting, but if that means I need to condone the stereotyping of millions of people, then we're back to square one.

 

[RockTurtle]

don't bring the zoe stuff here please, it might derail it away from the scope of the topic.

gamers as a whole being attacked by others with "a voice" for the actions of a handful.

 

[ModBot]

There is quite possibly a calm, well-reasoned, and useful discussion to be had over the extent to which "gamer culture" as a whole does or does not have an underlying problem that needs to be addressed, whether it's fair and appropriate to blame "gamers" as a group for the actions of a minority who also claim to be gamers, and what sort of responsibilities gaming journalists have to criticize gamers or to defend them.

Whether because of the anger in the starting point for this thread, or the general miasma of shittiness around this topic for the last week or so, this thread is clearly not it. Maybe we can try again another time.