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[Principate]

Even in the laziest of situations the bottom screen of the 3DS is used for actual useful things like HUDs, maps, or quick access to menus where most lazy developers will just ignore the back touchscreen on the Vita.

It's not a visualised gimmick so of course no one would care. When you see the Vita the first thing you notice isn't that it has a touch pad on the back, it's the very last thing you notice, if you notice it at all. Even if it's pointed out, the most a customer can really say is "that's nice...."

It's an extremely unnoticeable gimmick, which even worse is that doesn't immediately make the cusomer think of ways it could be used to improve software. Add to this that Sony doesn't even properly show these worthwhile ways, and you end up with a gimmick a developer doesn't care about and a customer even less.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Starhawk sold 4 times more in its opening week in Japan than in the UK.

What. The. Fuck?

Mega, mega bomba. Sony must be pretty pissed.

 

[KillGore]

Nintendo had those games in the works before the DS even came out...

We don't know what games are in development for Vita right now...

Even in the laziest of situations the bottom screen of the 3DS is used for actual useful things like HUDs, maps, or quick access to menus where most lazy developers will just ignore the back touchscreen on the Vita.

All those things you mentioned can be done with the press of a button (start) or you can even make it a live menu, like dead space, it's still a gimmick. Only useful thing of the second screen is for shooters, which for me personally is not a very good option, since it makes the face buttons and right trigger useless.

 

[Man God]

It's not a visualised gimmick so of course no one would care. When you see the Vita the first thing you notice isn't that it has a touch pad on the back, it's the very last thing you notice, if you notice it at all. Even if it's pointed out, the most a customer can really say is "that's nice...."

It's an extremely unnoticeable gimmick, which even worse is that doesn't immediately make the cusomer think of ways it could be used to improve software. Add to this that Sony doesn't even properly show these worthwhile ways, and you end up with a gimmick a developer doesn't care about and a customer even less.

Well said. I think its a good input myself but to say it is going to be underused by most developers isn't exactly a bold prediction but grim reality.

 

[AceBandage]

We don't know what games are in development for Vita right now...

You're right. Which is why Sony needs to be announcing games starting last month.

 

[KillGore]

You're right. Which is why Sony needs to be announcing games starting last month.

Let's see what E3 brings. I doubt Sony is smart enough to handle this but whatever, we'll see.

 

[slaughterking]

We don't know what games are in development for Vita right now...

OR DO WE

 

[Mpl90]

We don't know if games are in development for Vita right now...

Fixed

 

[H_Prestige]

The product itself is very solid.

No it isn't. If it were solid, it would be selling.

 

[gogogow]

Four shoulder buttons would be awkward, and the vita is not fat enough to have them, since it's even thinner than the PSP 1000. I wish it had four shoulder buttons but I'm not sure if it would be that durable, considering it'll be sticking out of the back part of the console.

I don't know what's so awkward about it. Thinner than PSP-1000, so? It's still big enough to hold 2 buttons on one side. The L1/R1 buttons wouldn't be in the middle, but moved a bit forward, to make place for the other button. They could also place R1/R2 next to eachother, just like the orignal Wii Classic Controller, but have them closer to the edge of the system.
I rather them do that then adding a super gimmicky backtouch panel, which would never feel the same as real buttons.

 

[KillGore]

OR DO WE

Maybe Reggie knows

Fixed

I think this is more believable, thanks for correcting me

I don't know what's so awkward about it. Thinner than PSP-1000, so? It's still big enough to hold 2 buttons on one side. The L1/R1 buttons wouldn't be in the middle, but moved a bit forward, to make place for the other button. They could also place R1/R2 next to eachother, just like the orignal Wii Classic Controller, but have them closer to the edge of the system.

Side by side? I don't think I would like that, would probably make me press one shoulder button by mistake. Maybe they could've gone old school and making a handheld with 6 face buttons?

So you want them to make four smaller shoulder buttons?

 

[heringer]

Fire Emblem kicking ass.

How awesome would it be if it managed to slowly crawl to 500k?

But even stopping at 400k, great numbers.

 

[Acosta]

The product itself is very solid.

He is somehwat convinced that it´s not because Sony bothered to try it to be better (expensive screen! how do you dare?!). Or something.

Boring week, usual Vita doommongering included. Yawn and all that. Going to buy a tablet to fully embrace the iOS future.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

Wow, will Sony fucking do something, anything for the Vita or are they waiting till it drops below 5000 units?

 

[krystallinity]

It's really time for a new generation. The sales both in Japan and America reflect that.

This generation fatigue is even dragging down the new consoles that are already out (3DS, Vita).

Nintendo saw the writing on the wall...that's why the Wii U will be out in a couple of months.

I don't know what Sony or Microsoft are thinking by waiting so long.

 

[jman2050]

It's really time for a new generation. The sales both in Japan and America reflect that.

This generation fatigue is even dragging down the new consoles that are already out (3DS, Vita).

Nintendo saw the writing on the wall...that's why the Wii U will be out in a couple of months.

I don't know what Sony or Microsoft are thinking by waiting so long.

I still think the Wii U should have been released last year.

 

[BurntPork]

Fire Emblem kicking ass.

How awesome would it be if it managed to slowly crawl to 500k?

But even stopping at 400k, great numbers.

400k is a lock at this point. It'll go higher.

 

[SmokyDave]

You're right. Which is why Sony needs to be announcing games starting last month.

Speaking as a Vita owner, that was already too late. They need to announce shit two months ago, ready to release ASAP.

 

[frankie_baby]

400k is a lock at this point. It'll go higher.

definitely higher, think its still supply constrained

 

[test_account]

The Vita's fight begins when Pokemon rampages and destroys everything in sight... yeah.

You think that Pokémon for DS will affect everything else that much for a long period of time?

 

[Father_Brain]

Some good news for Vita

If P4tG manages to equal P3P's sales (around 200K), it'll be a pretty amazing feat considering the userbase difference. I doubt it'll even reach 150K, though.

 

[Man God]

You think that Pokémon for DS will affect everything else that much for a long period of time?

...Yes?

 

[onilink88]

Pretty much an educated guess, but you see it all the time. A killer app draws in the audience, and part of that audience buys other games and follower titles. We've seen it with the 360 (Halo/Gears/CoD fans buying other stuff as well), we've seen it with the PS3 (fans waiting for FF13 buying other games), we've seen it with 3DS (they came in for Mario but buy other stuff). What would make you think that Monster Hunter is any different?

Fair enough. I suppose my logic was fallacious in that I thought that MH fans would only be attracted to games of a more similar nature (God Eater, for example).

But for the record, while you've established that the MH crowd buying FE isn't out of the question, I, personally, believe it's mostly old fans returning to it with a handful of new ones for whatever reason(s)... Or is that once again flimsy logic?

 

[WillyFive]

He is somehwat convinced that it´s not because Sony bothered to try it to be better (expensive screen! how do you dare?!). Or something.

No. It's because no one wants it, and he's explaining why he thinks this happens.

 

[test_account]

...Yes?

3DS sub 10k confirmed? Vita sub 1k confirmed? Everything completely destroyed

 

[EvilDick34]

All those things you mentioned can be done with the press of a button (start) or you can even make it a live menu, like dead space, it's still a gimmick. Only useful thing of the second screen is for shooters, which for me personally is not a very good option, since it makes the face buttons and right trigger useless.

There are MANY MANY games that the DS and now the 3DS use the bottom screen effectively that makes gaming between two screens seemlessly for the most part which makes it not a gimmick. If you want i could start listing games for you. Hell, i will throw out Steel Diver as one of those games that makes it fun using the bottom screen to control your sub, it is just to bad that Nintendo didn't flesh out Steel Diver and made it a better game.

 

[Man God]

3DS sub 10k confirmed? Vita sub 1k confirmed? Everything completely destroyed

3DS will be fine because Japan has already replaced the DSi and LL with it.

 

[Acosta]

No. It's because no one wants it, and he's explaining why he thinks this happens.

His explanation is bollocks. The thing is expensive and have not the most desired games.

End of the story. The product is great.

 

[MasterSheen]

Lowest 3DS week since price drop. I didn't even expect it to fall below 50k this week, but the bigger you are the harder you fall I guess.

 

[test_account]

3DS will be fine because Japan has already replaced the DSi and LL with it.

But the Pokémon wont destroy everything else I know that he was exagerating in a way to show how much BW2 will sell, and i dont think anyone doubts that the two games will sell great. But i dont think that it will affect everything else, all other games selling less than i.e 10k for a long time after the release of Pokémon BW2.

 

[KillGore]

There are MANY MANY games that the DS and now the 3DS use the bottom screen effectively that makes gaming between two screens seemlessly for the most part which makes it not a gimmick. If you want i could start listing games for you. Hell, i will throw out Steel Diver as one of those games that makes it fun using the bottom screen to control your sub, it is just to bad that Nintendo didn't flesh out Steel Diver and made it a better game.

Sorry, but all the games I've bought for my DS and 3DS, barely any of them really give me the impression of "holy shit! this can only be done on two screens!!". One of the few cases is TWEWY but even first party games don't even use (Mario games, etc). Even though I enjoyed the Zelda DS games, it can still be done with one screen. When you compare the amount of games there is out for the DS/3DS and you the amount of games that truly use the second screen without being a gimmick, there is a huge difference. Only a small fraction of games truly utilize the second screen in a way that is not possible with just one screen. With that fact it does show me that it is a gimmick, even though most won't agree with me.

 

[gogogow]

So you want them to make four smalle shoulder buttons?

No? (though they can make it slightly smaller)

That picture only proves my point, there's enough space to have 2 shoulder buttons on one side. And like I said in my previous post, the L1/R1 buttons would be moved to the front a bit to make place for L2/R2. You know, just like DS3, the L1/R1 buttons are also not in the middle.

Quick and dirty photoshop.

 

[Sadist]

His explanation is bollocks. The thing is expensive and have not the most desired games.

End of the story. The product is great.

The product itself is defined by it's gaming library, so one could argue that the Vita as a whole is not a great product.

Still, that's a problem a lot of gaming machines tend to have in their first year. It gets better after time. Problem is, looking at the future the Vita's future is a bit more bleak.

 

[zroid]

hey on the bright side, the Vita:3DS ratio has increased significantly from last week!

Right?

Right?

 

[muu]

Fair enough. I suppose my logic was fallacious in that I thought that MH fans would only be attracted to games of a more similar nature (God Eater, for example).

But for the record, while you've established that the MH crowd buying FE isn't out of the question, I, personally, believe it's mostly old fans returning to it with a handful of new ones for whatever reason(s)... Or is that once again flimsy logic?

Why not both? They're on record for stating that this is basically a compilation of all FE's to date, and a lot of the game reflects that. The game definitely caters to people of all skill levels. I'd say there's a lot of old AND a lot of new fans buying in to the game. Long legs just go to show how many people on the fence for one reason or another are joining in.

 

[electroplankton]

If P4tG manages to equal P3P's sales (around 200K), it'll be a pretty amazing feat considering the userbase difference. I doubt it'll even reach 150K, though.

P4tG might also debut at 120-130k, which would be an astonishing result for PSVita (The best-selling game, HSG6, is barely over 100k), but it will drop like a rock after that given the poor installed base the console will have in June (which will be almost the same the one is having now).

 

[impact]

Does anyone else feel like a price drop and some good software isn't enough to save Vita? I feel the name is already tainted in Japan and its just beyond saving at this point. Seeing the numbers is making me ill and about ready to toss the Vita and 32GB card up on Craigslist.

 

[EvilDick34]

Sorry, but all the games I've bought for my DS and 3DS, barely any of them really give me the impression of "holy shit! this can only be done on two screens!!". One of the few cases is TWEWY but even first party games don't even use (Mario games, etc). Even though I enjoyed the Zelda DS games, it can still be done with one screen. When you compare the amount of games there is out for the DS/3DS and you the amount of games that truly use the second screen without being a gimmick, there is a huge difference. Only a small fraction of games truly utilize the second screen in a way that is not possible with just one screen. With that fact it does show me that it is a gimmick, even though most won't agree with me.

I would suggest selling your DS and 3DS then, cause you seem dead set against something fun.

 

[boiled goose]

His explanation is bollocks. The thing is expensive and have not the most desired games.

End of the story. The product is great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business)
If something is not selling, it is a bad product.
Cost, advantage over competitors, desirability in the marketm etc all factor into what makes a good product.
Vita is a bad product (atm)

Apple products for example are frequently better than the competition while having inferior tech.

Sorry, but all the games I've bought for my DS and 3DS, barely any of them really give me the impression of "holy shit! this can only be done on two screens!!". One of the few cases is TWEWY but even first party games don't even use (Mario games, etc). Even though I enjoyed the Zelda DS games, it can still be done with one screen. When you compare the amount of games there is out for the DS/3DS and you the amount of games that truly use the second screen without being a gimmick, there is a huge difference. Only a small fraction of games truly utilize the second screen in a way that is not possible with just one screen. With that fact it does show me that it is a gimmick, even though most won't agree with me.

I agree. Few games use the second screen in a meaningful way.
Problem with 3DS is that you could not have both 3D and touch with one screen only.
Not sure if Nintendo will have a 2 screen device in their next handheld.

 

[extralite]

Sorry, but all the games I've bought for my DS and 3DS, barely any of them really give me the impression of "holy shit! this can only be done on two screens!!". One of the few cases is TWEWY but even first party games don't even use (Mario games, etc). Even though I enjoyed the Zelda DS games, it can still be done with one screen. When you compare the amount of games there is out for the DS/3DS and you the amount of games that truly use the second screen without being a gimmick, there is a huge difference. Only a small fraction of games truly utilize the second screen in a way that is not possible with just one screen. With that fact it does show me that it is a gimmick, even though most won't agree with me.

The biggest problem the DS had was that touch controls obscured your field of vision. This is much better on 3DS as you have a fancy screen for graphics and a functional one for controls and menus.

I'd say KI:U wouldn't be possible with just one screen.

Also, you have to admit that menu controls are much better on a touchscreen. DQIX's battles were so quick to select commands in, they were actually not boring. It's convenient to have menus and maps always on without the need to switch between game graphics and menus. Even with lazy implementation, they're always useful.

Also, you have to draw your own maps in EO4. This wouldn't realistically be possible without two screens, since you draw what you see. You need both screens.

 

[EvilDick34]

Does anyone else feel like a price drop and some good software isn't enough to save Vita? I feel the name is already tainted in Japan and its just beyond saving at this point. Seeing the numbers is making me ill and about ready to toss the Vita and 32GB card up on Craigslist.

I agree with you. Again, they need to get rid of the back touch panel, 3G and the oled screen in conjunction with a price drop and more games but at this point the Vita feels so doomed to mediocrity it's not funny. I feel like Sony really screwed itself with the proprietary memory cards, how expensive they are and the fact that you cannot meaningfully enjoy gaming on it without a 32gb memory card. All of these sales in the U.S. that include a 4gb card for free is a joke.

 

[grimshawish]

His explanation is bollocks. The thing is expensive and have not the most desired games.

End of the story. The product is great.

Good tech. Bad product.
Too many additional features; and just the general hardware cost have made it over priced.
Why is it so expensive? Cause thats how much the product costs. This makes it a bad product.

If the product were good people would be buying it. Games/Cost are part of Vita as a product.
Unless were blaming everything on marketing (I'm unaware of the Japanese marketing but the UK one was full on with the completely wrong marketing strategy - it was like a promotion for PS2 and its games not Vita and its games) then you could say 'its a great product but wrongly marketed'.

"Its a good product. Its just too costly!" Doesn't really fit, when the price of the product...is the cost of the product...'of the product' being the key term people seem not to understand.

 

[wrowa]

His explanation is bollocks. The thing is expensive and have not the most desired games.

End of the story. The product is great.

He explains his stance pretty well and argues quite comprehensible why he regards the Vita as a "bad product". You can obviously disagree with his point of view, but calling his explanation "bollocks" and trying to establish your opinion as the only valid way to regard the situation is pretty silly.

 

[onilink88]

Why not both? They're on record for stating that this is basically a compilation of all FE's to date, and a lot of the game reflects that. The game definitely caters to people of all skill levels. I'd say there's a lot of old AND a lot of new fans buying in to the game. Long legs just go to show how many people on the fence for one reason or another are joining in.

Alright, you win. It's not like I have enough evidence to prove my theory to more plausible anyways. In the end, I'm just glad that it's selling as well as (I think) it deserves to.

One last thing concerning FE (and I apologize beforehand if it's a stupid question), is there anything about Mystery of the Emblem on the SNES that caused it to sell as wickedly as it did? I mean, there's such a huge difference between it and the other best selling entries in the franchise.

 

[grimshawish]

Sorry, but all the games I've bought for my DS and 3DS, barely any of them really give me the impression of "holy shit! this can only be done on two screens!!". One of the few cases is TWEWY but even first party games don't even use (Mario games, etc). Even though I enjoyed the Zelda DS games, it can still be done with one screen. When you compare the amount of games there is out for the DS/3DS and you the amount of games that truly use the second screen without being a gimmick, there is a huge difference. Only a small fraction of games truly utilize the second screen in a way that is not possible with just one screen. With that fact it does show me that it is a gimmick, even though most won't agree with me.

I agree to a degree...End of the day it is similar to having an extra button though. Often its easier to use - plus for some things I find its just easier than Menu/Buttons. Its a good interface and adds to the accessibility of games.

I prefer games that fully utilise it though. Tactical games especially work great, as did a lot of 'variety games'.

In many ways it could work with a single touch screen - but not now with 3DS. You can't have a workable 3D touch screen (gets dirty/scratches ruin the effect); so it is working.

I think the term 'gimmick' is unfair. It does do a lot in terms of functionality. Wii U will be the same - sure you could do it in normal ways on another system but no where near as quickly/easily.

Does anyone else feel like a price drop and some good software isn't enough to save Vita? I feel the name is already tainted in Japan and its just beyond saving at this point. Seeing the numbers is making me ill and about ready to toss the Vita and 32GB card up on Craigslist.

I would say you should try and sell it quickly. That is just my opinion though.
I don't know what the going rate is for a second hand Vita though; you should look and make your mind up if its enough to make up for the risk of losing out.

I've said for a while Sony should look back to the PSP, bring out a revision which uses cards and UMD (Vita will run the cards) then look at moving to Vita in 2 years or so.

Vita had problems in the west as soon as its appearance was announced. Basically PSP2. In Japan...customers don't see a reason to buy it - but this can be changed...I don't believe Sony as a company are able to make such changes (mind you, they might accept losses, they've done it before).

 

[rpmurphy]

Sorry, but all the games I've bought for my DS and 3DS, barely any of them really give me the impression of "holy shit! this can only be done on two screens!!". One of the few cases is TWEWY but even first party games don't even use (Mario games, etc). Even though I enjoyed the Zelda DS games, it can still be done with one screen. When you compare the amount of games there is out for the DS/3DS and you the amount of games that truly use the second screen without being a gimmick, there is a huge difference. Only a small fraction of games truly utilize the second screen in a way that is not possible with just one screen. With that fact it does show me that it is a gimmick, even though most won't agree with me.

There are a lot of things that the second screen makes the user experience less complicated and more palatable to do than without a second screen. Like Etrian Odyssey's mapping. Or Rhythm Heaven's touch control scheme that doesn't make your hand obscure the main screen. Delegating the map screen to the bottom screen in Shiren instead of overlaying it on the main screen like in the console games. These aren't gimmicks, these are real improvements to the user experience.

 

[muu]

The biggest problem the DS had was that touch controls obscured your field of vision. This is much better on 3DS as you have a fancy screen for graphics and a functional one for controls and menus.

I'd say KI:U wouldn't be possible with just one screen.

Also, you have to admit that menu controls are much better on a touchscreen. DQIX's battles were so quick to select commands in, they were actually not boring. It's convenient to have menus and maps always on without the need to switch between game graphics and menus. Even with lazy implementation, they're always useful.

Also, you have to draw your own maps in EO4. This wouldn't realistically be possible without two screens, since you draw what you see. You need both screens.

The 'dont need it' arguments seem similar to what's thrown at 3DS and the 3D effect. Does a game need it? Absolutely not, but there's hundreds of opportunity to genuinely enhance gameplay with it. You could play FE without the bottom screen but you'll be cluttering the top screen or adding extra button presses. MH3G could look like the PSP version but w/ the screen you can actually see the action instead of having the map take up a quarter of the screen. Warriors Chronicles could play w/o the bottom screen but warrior switching wouldn't be nearly as seamless. Just a bunch of little stuff that the tech allows for.

I think the second screen on the DS's more than proven itself at this point. I believe the argument started w/ the usefulness of the rear touch of the Vita, and it's still got to show why it should be on there.

 

[electroplankton]

Imo, the double screen is the most overlooked, though important, innovation DS brought with it 7 years ago.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Only a small fraction of games truly utilize the second screen in a way that is not possible with just one screen.

A fraction of console games use every button on the controller in intelligent ways. That does not make those buttons extraneous. Naturally the cost to implement an entire screen is higher than extra buttons, that's true, but the perceived complexity of the platform comes into play. The perceived simplicity of "gimmicks" such as dual screen touch gaming and motion control makes a big market difference.

But on a bigger scale, using "gimmick" as a pejorative to describe such inputs seems silly to me. What makes something a gimmick? The threshold between "yes it is" and "no it isn't" is so nebulous it may as well not exist at all. Really the only objective measure we can actually identify is the success of the hardware, which is foolhardy at best. So it's a waste of time.

 

[Man God]

Just having the map down there is such an improvement on a lot of RPGs and even some action games that I really miss it when playing a PSP game for example.

The 3DS is also powerful enough to give a decent FPS experience and putting a bunch of the usual HUD stuff on the bottom screen would be killer.