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[Dascu]

nope, Malon. never played Link's Awakening

You are now forbidden to comment on Zelda games until you have played and preferably finished Link's Awakening.

 

[selig]

I know it's a bit unusual for the Zelda games, but they should start adding difficulty settings.

Can't ask them not to mainstream it. Just add in a HARD mode for the rest of us.

Again: Dont collect heart containers.

Also, if Nintendo feels like putting in a bigger challenge for seasoned gamers, it should be more than just "takes more damage, does more damage", which would be just as easy as always, only more tiring and repetitive.

See Time Splitters 2 as an example that does different difficulties the right way.

 

[Why would you do that?]

Oh there's a first time for everything! It'll make it all the sweeter when he finally does get a chance to play it.

I very secretly hope they bring back the Gerudo. All women tribe with nice graphics?

You mean Marin

I don't know why, but I really like how you twisted what he said. :lol

 

[GCX]

Interesting to see how Nintendo will handle the difficulty level. They've come up with some nice solutions for NSMBWii (Super guide) and Galaxy 2 (Super guide + "tip network" to make tutorials optional). I somehow doubt they'd use such an "easy" method as adding hard mode to Zelda since Nintendo likes to do things their own way.

 

[Dascu]

Interesting to see how Nintendo will handle the difficulty level. They've come up with some nice solutions for NSMBWii (Super guide) and Galaxy 2 (Super guide + "tip network" to make tutorials optional). I somehow doubt they'd use such an "easy" method as adding hard mode to Zelda since Nintendo likes to do things their own way.

Well, it looks like Link will have a companion again this time, namely that Great Fairy lookalike girl. Perhaps she gives hints and clues for puzzles or maybe even temporary invincibility during a battle if you're doing terrible. You know, sort of like a more fleshed out (and less obnoxious) Navi.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Again: Dont collect heart containers.

players shouldn't have to nerf themselves to get what the developers couldn't give

 

[AceBandage]

players shouldn't have to nerf themselves to get what the developers couldn't give

And what is it that gamers want?
I see everyone saying they want difficulty, but all they really want is enemies to hit harder.
How does that solve anything.

 

[selig]

players shouldn't have to nerf themselves to get what the developers couldn't give

The WHOLE reason of heart containers having to be picked up instead of simply being automatically added is so you can adjust difficulty individually. sigh

 

[jwj442]

Also Wind Wakers overall atmosphere is very cheery and bright while Twilight Princess is dark and gloomy. So the music of Twilight Princess is very ambiant and maybe thats the reason why its not memorable .

Majora's Mask was dark too, and it had a lot more memorable songs than Twilight Princess.

 

[Relix]

The WHOLE reason of heart containers having to be picked up instead of simply being automatically added is so you can adjust difficulty individually. sigh

Perfect response. Why do people want everything pre-made with the choice of a click or push of a button is beyond me. Just don't grab the hearts and see how the game gets harder. Make a 3 heart run if you want a challenge.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

players shouldn't have to nerf themselves to get what the developers couldn't give

Zelda games have never been particularly hard.

Because of that I don't think it isn't something they couldn't give, it's something they do purposely.

It seems to me they don't want combat to be the sticking point that stops someone from progressing.

So I've always nerfed myself if I want challenge in Zelda. Because it doesn't seem Nintendo is going to give it. It's their call, it's their game. I'm just along for the ride.

 

[beelzebozo]

Zelda games have never been particularly hard.

srrsly. it's not about the difficulty. the games are not stupidly easy or stupidly hard. they hit a wonderful sweet spot.

 

[Brandon F]

And what is it that gamers want?
I see everyone saying they want difficulty, but all they really want is enemies to hut harder.
How does that solve anything.

Actually that would solve A LOT.

-Assuming that the actual combat mechanics are sound(which Zelda usually does right), then being punished with a hit would cause more reactive defensive play, something Zelda OFFERS but is almost never needed in the past decade of games.

-It would possibly fix up a busted economy too. What possible service do rupees and potions provide in WW and TP when it can take upwards of dozens of actual hits to make Link wince. Once upon a time in Zelda, this stuff balanced well into the gameplay, but with actual damage only taking off a quarter heart piece in most cases, it's a total wash. What purpose did potions or heart containers ever serve in TP, outside of making the fanbase feel insulted.

-I want to use my shield, I want enemies to knock off several hearts from my life if I happen to allow them past my capable defenses. Why can't Nintendo just offer a slight difficulty switch?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

The WHOLE reason of heart containers having to be picked up instead of simply being automatically added is so you can adjust difficulty individually. sigh

BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE WITH OCD?!

If they HAVE to pick up everything the game then becomes too easy for them. God... think about all those treasure chests you couldn't get because your pouch was too full.

Seems like they left that in as an eternal mindfuck to the OCD gamer.

 

[Dascu]

srrsly. it's not about the difficulty. the games are not stupidly easy or stupidly hard. they hit a wonderful sweet spot.

No, I'd say they're stupidly easy. Replayed Wind Waker the other day and the only boss who posed a challenge was Ganondorf. First time in the game where I had to use a potion. Didn't pick up any other heart pieces, just the post-boss heart containers. Not only do the other bosses barely damage you, they have very little health themselves and go down so fast. It's a shame since they're dead by the time you get into it.

 

[Brandon F]

The WHOLE reason of heart containers having to be picked up instead of simply being automatically added is so you can adjust difficulty individually. sigh

Bullshit. That works for the bosses, but what after? Avoid every sidequest? Don't explore the world and hunt for it's treasures for fear of fucking up that 'satisfying' difficulty balance in case I accidentally stumble on a heart container in an oft-kilter cave I had NO choice but to collect when found? This logic transforms the game into something very unsatisfying.

 

[selig]

I want enemies to knock off several hearts from my life if I happen to allow them past my capable defenses.

What good would that do? Enemies would still be as stupid as ever, but instead they´re killing you easier. It´d become only more frustrating, as it´d pretty much devolve into dependence on luck instead of skills. "Haha, im fighting this stupid enemy, he´s dead" - "oh no, he accidentially hit me, im dead"

yeah, that´s so much fun...

 

[Dascu]

What good would that do? Enemies would still be as stupid as ever, but instead they´re killing you easier. It´d become only more frustrating, as it´d pretty much devolve into dependence on luck instead of skills. "Haha, im fighting this stupid enemy, he´s dead" - "oh no, he accidentially hit me, im dead"

yeah, that´s so much fun...

Well for one it'd force you to think. Right now you can just rush into a fight with several darknuts and not have to worry at all. It makes the battles a teeny bit boring and shallow.

I'd rather they just drop the heart piece and container system in favour of something else. Or, maybe have the game auto-balance itself with enemies becoming more difficult as you get better.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Well for one it'd force you to think. Right now you can just rush into a fight with several darknuts and not have to worry at all. It makes the battles a teeny bit boring and shallow.

I'd rather they just drop the heart piece and container system in favour of something else. Or, maybe have the game auto-balance itself with enemies becoming more difficult as you get better.

They should use a difficultly system like the Metal Gear Solid games- quiz the player at the start about their experience with both the series and games in general, and then have the game balance out based on their answers.

 

[Brandon F]

What good would that do? Enemies would still be as stupid as ever, but instead they´re killing you easier. It´d become only more frustrating, as it´d pretty much devolve into dependence on luck instead of skills. "Haha, im fighting this stupid enemy, he´s dead" - "oh no, he accidentially hit me, im dead"

yeah, that´s so much fun...

Well then by your argument there is something fundamentally WRONG with the design core of Zelda. I don't agree enemies are as braindead as you make them to be, just that the gamer gets cocky taking them down, because what's the bother in respecting any sort of AI or attack coding when there is no fear of death. Just wade in and stab, stab, stab.

I think your dead ass wrong though. TP had agressive enemies with tells, patterns, and obvious animations to perceive. It would never be luck that kills being that you have the tools to defend and counter. But thanks to Nintendo's fukked balancing, we'll never need bother.

 

[selig]

Well for one it'd force you to think. Right now you can just rush into a fight with several darknuts and not have to worry at all. It makes the battles a teeny bit boring and shallow.

I'd rather they just drop the heart piece and container system in favour of something else. Or, maybe have the game auto-balance itself with enemies becoming more difficult as you get better.

But you STILL could rush into them. They´d be no more clever than before. All that´s different is that these dumb enemies suddenly could kill you easier.

See, what I´d like to see in terms of different difficulty for Zelda-games is a different enemy-layout. Well, i´d like to see that either way. So, instead of 5 dumb moblins, there is now a darknut. Something like that.

 

[Dascu]

But you STILL could rush into them. They´d be no more clever than before. All that´s different is that these dumb enemies suddenly could kill you easier.

See, what I´d like to see in terms of different difficulty for Zelda-games is a different enemy-layout. Well, i´d like to see that either way. So, instead of 5 dumb moblins, there is now a darknut. Something like that.

1. Yeah, but if you rush in now you'd die.
2. I'm not advocating *just* upping the damage, I'd also like for the AI to be a bit a smarter. Say something I noticed with the Darknuts in Wind Waker: They all line in front of you. Would be a lot better if one of them tried to attack you from behind.

 

[Myriadis]

The Zora tunic was a good idea.You get an advantage underwater,but you get much more damage from enemies that use Ice or Fire.Like the goblin archers which could rip you 3 hearts away when you have the zora armor on.Too bad it didn't work with all enemies.But combined with the Ordon Sword it makes a lot more fun to defeat Argarok.

A bigger difficulty don't makes me want to buy Potions.I never bought any potions because of the Game-breaking faries.Screw them (thankfully they were rare in TP) and it would be much better.But then again,I even never bought a potion in Zelda 1.

And the problem that enemies are doing not enough damage is a problem I've encountered since Oot.Even the last Temple in this game,the spriti temple, had enemies who only could knock of one quarter of a heart and no enemy,iirc,could swipe more than one heart away.The only thing who could do that were the bosses.

But the bosses in TP gave you too much time to strike back.I just want it that you have not much time to reveal and kick the weak spot.Ganondorfs Battles were good,though.

Well for one it'd force you to think. Right now you can just rush into a fight with several darknuts and not have to worry at all. It makes the battles a teeny bit boring and shallow.

Nah,no.Cave of Ordeals with its 4 Darknuts will prove you otherwise.

 

[maniac-kun]

maybe link will have navi again and she will tell link where he should go next and assist with advice at puzzles

 

[Dascu]

Nah,no.Cave of Ordeals with its 4 Darknuts will prove you otherwise.

Is this the one in WW or TP? In WW I got to the 30th floor to get the triforce map and I think I only got hurt in total for about 2 full hearts. I also fought 6 darknuts at the same time in old Hyrule castle and got hit like once. I seem to recall the TP darknuts being harder though.

That aside, when the only challenge in your game is from the lowest floor in an optional dungeon, that's not a good sign. I'm really surprised Nintendo hasn't balanced this out better. The Mario games are much better in this regard. It feels sloppy for Nintendo that they haven't tried to fix it or at the very least experiment with the heart container/piece concept.

 

[GeneralIroh]

If you look at the sheer design of WW and TP I believe WW winds hands down. The world doesnt feel like a sum of connected areas but like a real ocean. The character design is more cute and whimsical then TP (which suits my taste more) and Link with all his items blend into the surroundings much better then he does in TP (in WW Link looks like a small kid playing with his toys in town while Link in TP feels kinda weird with all his gadgetery when he enters towns. not to mention that he cant use any of his items in castle town).

But the overall gameplay is just much better in TP. The Battle system in WW is too automatic compared to TP and it does not have as much combat options as in TP. The Dungeon design of WW is lacking (not to mention the amount of dungeons you have in WW) compared to the Dungeons in TP (Twilight Dungeon for example). The Overworld (while being a bunch of connected area) is much more fun then the overworld in WW (Boring Boring Sea travel). The only thing that WW does much better is the sidequest stuff. But seriously you can beat WW in about 6 hours so without the sidequest stuff the game would feel way to mondaine..

SO yeah while WW is definately more charming Id say TP is the overall better game.

I agree with what you're saying about TP having better gameplay but I have to disagree with TWW having a better overworld.
My problem with TWW overworld is that all the islands design felt rushed. Everything was cloned and predictable. The size of the islands weren't big enough for exploration. TWW's overworld did offer freedom but there wasn't much variety and the whole thing ended up feeling artificial. I prefer the overworld from TP because each location had a different climate and look. It made exploration easier on the eyes.

Has anyone played Mount and Blade?
I think that game has a pretty good difficulty level and loot system. You're always looking for the best item to improve your chances of survival in combat and the enemies in MB can be pretty relentless. I also would like to see a zelda where the country of Hyrule is split up into many factions and their alliances change throughout the seasons. I want factions in hyrule to be at war against each other. Maybe the game would be a prequel to OOT.

 

[selig]

But the bosses in TP gave you too much time to strike back.I just want it that you have not much time to reveal and kick the weak spot.Ganondorfs Battles were good,though.

Actually, that´s one area where i´d like to see the Zelda-series evolve. Im sick of having to wait for THE ony and only opening. There still should be main openings, but i´d like to have a lot of alternative ways of beating bosses. See Ghoma, who you could one hit ko with a slingshot shot, IF you knew about it.

 

[$200]

Actually, that´s one area where i´d like to see the Zelda-series evolve. Im sick of having to wait for THE ony and only opening. There still should be main openings, but i´d like to have a lot of alternative ways of beating bosses. See Ghoma, who you could one hit ko with a slingshot shot, IF you knew about it.

TP did this right with the darknuts so I'm assuming they're heading in the right direction.

 

[curls]

I agree with what you're saying about TP having better gameplay but I have to disagree with TWW having a better overworld.
My problem with TWW overworld is that all the islands design felt rushed. Everything was cloned and predictable. The size of the islands weren't big enough for exploration. TWW's overworld did offer freedom but there wasn't much variety and the whole thing ended up feeling artificial. I prefer the overworld from TP because each location had a different climate and look. It made exploration easier on the eyes.

The problem with WW are the tiny, tiny islands, before it came out I imagined WW having large continents. I like my vast land masses. Sans art design TP had the better overworld IMO.

>

Could you get this even more wrong, the darknuts were one of the coolest things about WW. Both art design and gameplay wise.

 

[selig]

Could you get this even more wrong, the darknuts were one of the coolest things about WW. Both art design and gameplay wise.

Wat

The Darknuts in TP actually put up a REAL fight. The kind of fight I´d hope to see more often in a Zelda-game. TWw´s darknuts were dumb "wait-for-win-button"-fodder

 

[GeneralIroh]

Wat

The Darknuts in TP actually put up a REAL fight. The kind of fight I´d hope to see more often in a Zelda-game. TWw´s darknuts were dumb "wait-for-win-button"-fodder

TWW darknuts were also huge cats in armor smh
They were too goofy looking to take seriously

 

[Jarlaxle]

Zelda games have never been particularly hard.

Zelda II says hi.

 

[Glass Soldier]

I agree that the Darknuts in TP were really well done. Actually, I always got really excited when I encountered one.

 

[curls]

Wat

The Darknuts in TP actually put up a REAL fight. The kind of fight I´d hope to see more often in a Zelda-game. TWw´s darknuts were dumb "wait-for-win-button"-fodder

In a way so were TP's, prehaps it was the clunky animation. :lol

The art design in TP was just awful at times.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Zelda II says hi.

And how many after?

I already said it, but if Nintendo wanted Zelda to be a harder game... it would be a harder game.

 

[Azure J]

Wat

The Darknuts in TP actually put up a REAL fight. The kind of fight I´d hope to see more often in a Zelda-game. TWw´s darknuts were dumb "wait-for-win-button"-fodder

Gotta admit though, they had some stellar animation and AI. Actually all of the enemies had amazing AI in Windwaker, which was something I was expecting but totally got let down with in TP. Most grunts would literally bail out if you so much as whipped out a bomb, if you disarmed a Darknut then tried to go in for an extra hit, they would drop you with hand to hand combat then if you gave them enough time, they'd make a run for the closest weapon available, winged enemies would hover about you and never get within striking range of your sword while pecking at you, swarms of those "dehneh? deneh!" mouse things would cover for one another to make sure you couldn't lock on to any one of them... All of these little touches and tons more made the enemies seem like they had more intelligence than just what was programmed at times.

In Twilight Princess there were few if any opponents with any sort of reaction; they all followed a set pattern and it showed big time.

 

[Andrew J.]

Difficulty is not a hallmark of Zelda the way it is with Bionic Commando or Ninja Gaiden. The last really hard Zelda was AoL; LttP and everything after it have been pretty easy.

 

[FoxSpirit]

There are really people dissing Wind Wakers art? Yeah, sub-HD it maybe wasn't really visible but...

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

No one is denying Wind Waker looked incredible, especially in Dolphin shots. People just have an issue with its character design, me included. Lose the chibi shit, and it would've been perfect.

 

[Dascu]

How can you hate these guys? Not very viewable, but one of them is carrying a moblin spear instead of his usual sword.

 

[beelzebozo]

No, I'd say they're stupidly easy. Replayed Wind Waker the other day and the only boss who posed a challenge was Ganondorf. First time in the game where I had to use a potion. Didn't pick up any other heart pieces, just the post-boss heart containers. Not only do the other bosses barely damage you, they have very little health themselves and go down so fast. It's a shame since they're dead by the time you get into it.

i notice very little difficulty difference between LTTP and WW, or many of the other zeldas, so i really don't get the complaints. i'm sure someone will point to one moment or boss and say "bu bu but THIS," but moment to moment, zelda does not routinely test your gaming reflexes or tax them to their limit.

No one is denying Wind Waker looked incredible, especially in Dolphin shots. People just have an issue with its character design, me included. Lose the chibi shit, and it would've been perfect.

the chibi was pretty obviously a conscious choice to suit the tone of the game. change the chibi, it means other things change, too. use the changes made to the FF series as a parallel.

 

[Dascu]

i notice very little difficulty difference between LTTP and WW, or many of the other zeldas, so i really don't get the complaints. i'm sure someone will point to one moment or boss and say "bu bu but THIS," but moment to moment, zelda does not routinely test your gaming reflexes or tax them to their limit.

Oh, I'm not saying WW is easier than the others. It feels a bit easier than TP though. It's been too long since I've played LTTP to remember how that one was difficulty-wise.

Of course, maybe I'm just super-good and all games are easy for me. ;-)

 

[beelzebozo]

ha, possible.

i'm just not someone who plays a game and is annoyed when it's not super difficult, any more than when i read something like THE LITTLE PRINCE and get upset that it doesn't use gigantic words.

 

[Deku]

There are really people dissing Wind Wakers art? Yeah, sub-HD it maybe wasn't really visible but...

Of course you picked sunken hyrule castle as your example. That segment was the highpoint of the game.

The most interesting, the most nostalgic and really 'fits' with the 2-D sprite work homage Celda (I presume) was initially aimed for.

This segment though comes after many long sailing segments, clawing for treasures, and a generally fragmented dungeon system on the overworld, with many mostly uninspired dungeons.

I think Wind Waker would have been much better received had the game's focus been less about sailing between islands and just a tight game with dungeons plus a mirrored sunken hyrule with actual content.

 

[Dascu]

ha, possible.

i'm just not someone who plays a game and is annoyed when it's not super difficult, any more than when i read something like THE LITTLE PRINCE and get upset that it doesn't use gigantic words.

It's starting to bother me a bit. Boss fights feel short, enemy fights get boring. That, and the entire heart piece collection system, the rupees, the heaps of items, having to get a map and a compass, the key system, etc. feels like a bunch of useless filler. I really wish they tried cutting down on all of that and try to simplify the series. Hopefully that's what Miyamoto's comment is about.

 

[Akai]

It's starting to bother me a bit. Boss fights feel short, enemy fights get boring. That, and the entire heart piece collection system, the rupees, the heaps of items, having to get a map and a compass, the key system, etc. feels like a bunch of useless filler. I really wish they tried cutting down on all of that and try to simplify the series. Hopefully that's what Miyamoto's comment is about.

Uhhhh, sounds more like you need a new series to play if you feel they need to cut out material that's been there since the very beginning...

 

[beelzebozo]

i agree that the series could use some rejiggering structure-wise.

 

[Dascu]

Uhhhh, sounds more like you need a new series to play if you feel they need to cut out material that's been there since the very beginning...

Yeah. The series could use some blood and mature violence too if they still want my support. Oh and a dark story where Link fights his inner evil. Moral choices (save the cucco or kill the cucco?) would be great too.

 

[Boney]

Wait I agree with selig? What's goin on here!?

 

[Calints Neos]

Yeah. The series could use some blood and mature violence too if they still want my support. Oh and a dark story where Link fights his inner evil. Moral choices (save the cucco or kill the cucco?) would be great too.

That sounds terrible