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[selig]

WW kiddy? What's this shit, the nineties?

Then call it cartoony instead. I likey TP´s semi-realistic artstyle. The same with toonshading would look great. Which is basically what the known artwork looks like. TWW´s artstyle is so overused by now...and it makes me think of the abomination that was Phantom Hourglass.

To get this topic back on track:
What do you think of a Zelda-game that works as a kind of "behind-the-scenes"-Zelda, explaining all the "how the brave boy is chosen", "why the trio of brave boy/Zelda/Ganon always repeats" and such?
I know that a lot of Zelda-fans are sick of Ganon being the villain and want a new villain. But instead of texture-swapping the villain, I´d prefer to get more insight into the known process, giving it more depth and all.

 

[Vinci]

Wind Waker was, bar none, the most timeless, appealing looking game created in the last two generations. I didn't like the game. But it was beautiful.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm calling troll.

 

[Sadist]

Then call it cartoony instead. I likey TP´s semi-realistic artstyle. The same with toonshading would look great. Which is basically what the known artwork looks like. TWW´s artstyle is so overused by now...and it makes me think of the abomination that was Phantom Hourglass.

Thing is, TWW is not Phantom Hourglass. If Nintendo were to release an all new Zelda sporting the same artsytle as Wind Waker I'd be ecstatic. A game like this would age very well, just like Wind Waker. I bett that if I start a new game on the Wind Waker twenty years from now, I'll say something along the line "man this game still looks amazing".

What you are asking for (to me) sounds like a random animé. Do not want.

 

[Jezan]

Hunters was a game where you played Samus and Samus-alikes, not something Im proposing here.


...

When I want to "play" as an average-joe, I turn of my videogames! I can be an average-joe in RL.

One of the most interesting aspects about Metroid, is Samus.

What's next? I want to play as the mail delivery guy in Zelda?

 

[Frencherman]

no, i actually think this is a good idea:

Is there actually some kind of humor, here?

 

[Marlowe89]

Complete opposite for me. I hate the fantasy-Zombies, but love the "something went wrong"-Zombies.

Hinting is one thing, putting in something that feels completely out of place another.

OH GEE, TALK ABOUT IRONY.

No seriously, why the fuck are you playing Zelda games? The entire franchise is pure fantasy (just one of many things that make it so appealing) and you're basically saying you want that taken away. Jesus Christ.

I bet you're also one of those people who want a science fiction Zelda.

 

[Myriadis]

Oh please.
TP´s artstyle is vastly superior to TWW´s. I prefer toon-shading, though. Non-kiddy artstyle + toon-shading = perfect visual style

I think they're equally good.WW went to a comic style similar to the 2D-games and TP more to the more "realistic" Oot/MM-Style,although it has the Graphic Engine from Wind Waker as the basic.I even think that Twilight Princess successfully mixed these two styles,with a bigger focus on the Oot-Style.Both games had incredibly smooth animations and many beautiful details.I'll say that they are on par.

One thing that shocked me about TP was the fact that every minor charakter looked like shit.

That was the problem in every 3D-Zelda.The Carpenters from Oot,the Children from Outset Island in WW,the children from Twilight Princess.They were all incredibly ugly.

 

[udivision]

That was the problem in every 3D-Zelda.The Carpenters from Oot,the Children from Outset Island,the children from Twilight Princess.They were all incredibly ugly.

Wow... you're really spot on.

I wonder if they do it on purpose almost, lol. For TP at least, I think they really want to avoid having to use an anime look. They had to with Link, but everyone else seems a little gonky almost.

 

[mantidor]

Count me as someone else who loved the Wind Waker style, even though at first I hated it. But Link's model is so bland and uninspired, I just couldn't stand it.

 

[Christopher]

I had three main gripes about Twilight Princess:

Lack of interesting plot...I mean we're progressing in Zelda give us something to strive for.

The realistic look seemed to ZAP characters personalities away...I honestly can't remember anyoen from that game..however I can still remember characters from Majora's Mask, OoT, heck even Wind Waker (even though I didn't like that either).

The music wasn't memorable at all...part of the problem is because the man who did almost all Zeldas up until this time didn't do it.

I just felt it was lifeless...it seems the realistic look just really sucked the life out of it.

I HOPE I get a great experience with the next Zelda game that I always enjoyed.

 

[Dascu]

Count me as someone else who loved the Wind Waker style, even though at first I hated it. But Link's model is so bland and uninspired, I just couldn't stand it.

 

[AntMurda]

The music wasn't memorable at all...part of the problem is because the man who did almost all Zeldas up until this time didn't do it.

I will assume you are referring to Kondo, who is as involved in this Zelda: Twilight Princess's soundtrack as he was to Wind Waker and Majora's Mask. He contributed some songs.

The other 2 musicians, Toru Minegishi and Asuka Ohta have each worked on 3 Zeldas in the past.

 

[Nostalgic Nightmare]

One thing about the music of Wind Waker that really stood out for me was "Dungeon".
Kondo really seemed to go to a dark place, and this just literally hypnotizes me.
Love his music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l49mBo6u9kA

 

[Zoramon089]

Count me as someone else who loved the Wind Waker style, even though at first I hated it. But Link's model is so bland and uninspired, I just couldn't stand it.

I want to say this a joke post but sadly I think you're being serious...WW Link's character model, and the models in the game in general, were some of the best most expressive characters I've seen in any videogame

 

[Yazus]

Best Zelda game ever is the Wand of Gamelon period. "I WONDER WHAT GANON'S UP TO!" "MAH BOY! PEACE IS WHAT ALL TRUE WARRIORS STRIVE FOR!"

 

[MindCollizion]

While playing God of War 3 I couldn't help but wonder what a Zelda game with action like that would be like. I will be pleasantly surprised if the action is beefed up to that extent in Zelda while still maintaining that deep sense of exploration which GOW3 lacks.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I love all the people moaning about the guy who doesn't like windwaker's art style. Calling him that type of gamer and so on, but in reality you're no different. The only reason you like it is because others dislike it. It's like the people that call mario galaxy a great game, then go and complain about the story of other games...

Windwaker, imho had the most faults of any zelda game, including the visual design.

 

[WillyFive]

One thing that shocked me about TP was the fact that every minor charakter looked like shit.

Actually, one of the most impressive part of TP was the detail that went into minor characters. How when you were in their homes or next to them, and you zoomed in in First Person and see all the detail that went into them. You could even look at their houses and see their history, old family photos and whatnot.

I love all the people moaning about the guy who doesn't like windwaker's art style. Calling him that type of gamer and so on, but in reality you're no different. The only reason you like it is because others dislike it. It's like the people that call mario galaxy a great game, then go and complain about the story of other games...

It doesn't work like that.

A bad story and absence of a story are totally different things. If there is a story, it better be good.

Mario Galaxy has no story (well, actually it was optional, but most people didn't notice it had one), so no reason to talk about it's story.

Wind Waker's art style is a groundbreaking technical achievement, and it looks great to boot.

 

[selig]

I dont even dislike TWW´s artstyle. I just think that TP´s artstyle is better. oh well, hypebole...

 

[Hawkian]

While playing God of War 3 I couldn't help but wonder what a Zelda game with action like that would be like. I will be pleasantly surprised if the action is beefed up to that extent in Zelda while still maintaining that deep sense of exploration which GOW3 lacks.

Christ, please tell me you've played Darksiders :lol

 

[Dascu]

I love all the people moaning about the guy who doesn't like windwaker's art style. Calling him that type of gamer and so on, but in reality you're no different.

Most of my comments should be taken with a grain of salt. Of course I understand that people dislike this or that game's artstyle or story or whatever. I just heavily disagree with them. On the internet, that translates as posting semi-humorous pictures and using vast hyperbole.

The only reason you like it is because others dislike it. It's like the people that call mario galaxy a great game, then go and complain about the story of other games...

Not exactly sure what you mean with this though.

 

[Jocchan]

Actually, one of the most impressive part of TP was the detail that went into minor characters. How when you were in their homes or next to them, and you zoomed in in First Person and see all the detail that went into them. You could even look at their houses and see their history, old family photos and whatnot.

Too bad the character designer was on vacation then

 

[MindCollizion]

Christ, please tell me you've played Darksiders :lol

I have not. Why?

 

[Empty]

I love all the people moaning about the guy who doesn't like windwaker's art style. Calling him that type of gamer and so on, but in reality you're no different. The only reason you like it is because others dislike it. It's like the people that call mario galaxy a great game, then go and complain about the story of other games...

what on earth. most people like wind waker's art style because it's timeless, incredibly beautiful and hugely expressive, not because others hate it. most people don't care about the story in galaxy because it isn't the point of that game, it's hardly even there and is inoffensive. if a game is designed around a story and forces you to pay attention to it for a decent length, then its quality matters.

 

[Vinci]

I dont even dislike TWW´s artstyle. I just think that TP´s artstyle is better. oh well, hypebole...

I prefer Wind Waker's. Mostly because it will look good a generation or two from now, whereas TP will be hideous. I find that to be a really amazing achievement considering the vast majority of games several years out from their releases look absolutely horrible.

That said, TP was the better game.

 

[carlo6529]

I really can't say what game is better, TP or WW.

Once thing I do know though is that I had more fun playing WW then TP and I truly believe is has to do with the visual design.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Most of my comments should be taken with a grain of salt. Of course I understand that people dislike this or that game's artstyle or story or whatever. I just heavily disagree with them. On the internet, that translates as posting semi-humorous pictures and using vast hyperbole.


Not exactly sure what you mean with this though.

Ever watched zero punctuation? ever noticed how Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, is easily satisfied by anything with the name "valve" or "tim shafer" on it? Well, it's because he like it, and people have begun to listen, so other people blindless love the same games. I swear for every person who said 'I loved psychonaughts' actually played the game, there's no way it's sales would've been so poor.

The same thing happens with other games. Mario galaxy reviewers never provided a score for the story, yet still provide the game with perfects, people never question it, never asked "how is it possible this game without a story can stack up to metroid, or half life?".

Well, people also do the same thing for windwaker, instead of providing reasoning for why they think windwaker looks good, they just call people that type of gamer, and walk away feeling smug, they like the graphics because someone else liked them, not because of any real reasoning...

At least, that's how most of the comments in this thread come off...

 

[Vinci]

Ever watched zero punctuation? ever noticed how Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, is easily satisfied by anything with the name "valve" or "tim shafer" on it? Well, it's because he like it, and people have begun to listen, so other people blindless love the same games. I swear for every person who said 'I loved psychonaughts' actually played the game, there's no way it's sales would've been so poor.

Agree completely with this. I loved the writing of Psychonauts but it wasn't as excellent of a game as people make it out to be.

The same thing happens with other games. Mario galaxy reviewers never provided a score for the story, yet still provide the game with perfects, people never question it, never asked "how is it possible this game without a story can stack up to metroid, or half life?".

Because games do not require a story. You are free to include one if you like, but a story is not a prerequisite for something to be considered a game.

Well, people also do the same thing for windwaker, instead of providing reasoning for why they think windwaker looks good, they just call people that type of gamer, and walk away feeling smug, they like the graphics because someone else liked them, not because of any real reasoning...

I don't think it's right to call anyone 'that type of gamer,' but I personally prefer Wind Waker over Twilight Princess due to the art style. How do I explain my appreciation for it? I don't know, I just think it's incredibly smooth, clean, appealing, and timeless. Twilight Princess, for me, was slightly unattractive from the first time I saw it and it's only going to go downhill from there.

As a game, however, Twilight Princess was better.

 

[Dascu]

Ever watched zero punctuation? ever noticed how Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, is easily satisfied by anything with the name "valve" or "tim shafer" on it? Well, it's because he like it, and people have begun to listen, so other people blindless love the same games. I swear for every person who said 'I loved psychonaughts' actually played the game, there's no way it's sales would've been so poor.

The same thing happens with other games. Mario galaxy reviewers never provided a score for the story, yet still provide the game with perfects, people never question it, never asked "how is it possible this game without a story can stack up to metroid, or half life?".

Well, people also do the same thing for windwaker, instead of providing reasoning for why they think windwaker looks good, they just call people that type of gamer, and walk away feeling smug, they like the graphics because someone else liked them, not because of any real reasoning...

At least, that's how most of the comments in this thread come off...

Wind Waker's graphics are so good, to me, because of the use of colour, the detail to the character and enemy's expressions, all the little touches, etc. It's a beautiful game. Though really, it shouldn't be necessary to explain this. You like it or you don't.

And I don't know why you're bringing up story and Mario games. Do you agree with the sentiments that any game needs a deep story to be good?

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Ever watched zero punctuation? ever noticed how Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, is easily satisfied by anything with the name "valve" or "tim shafer" on it? Well, it's because he like it, and people have begun to listen, so other people blindless love the same games. I swear for every person who said 'I loved psychonaughts' actually played the game, there's no way it's sales would've been so poor.

People who say they love Psychonauts have obviously played it. If you hear a disproportionate amount of people saying it it's because you're reading an enthusiast website. And no, I haven't noticed how Yahtzee is "easily satisfied" with anything. Everyone has likes and dislikes, and it's not hard to understand why someone would hold Valve or Schafer in high regard.

The same thing happens with other games. Mario galaxy reviewers never provided a score for the story, yet still provide the game with perfects, people never question it, never asked "how is it possible this game without a story can stack up to metroid, or half life?".

A game succeeds of fails on its own merits. Not every game has to have a deep story to be great, and I'd argue the majority that try are laughable if you've ever read a good book or watched a classic film to compare them to. Perfect scores aren't given because games are "perfect" (there's no such thing as an ultimate game, book, movie, painting, etc.), they're recognized for excelling at what they set out to do and setting a standard. Of course this is always a subjective judgment to an extent, but if you're thinking SMG fails on some level because it doesn't prioritize windy exposition I'd say you're missing the point.

Well, people also do the same thing for windwaker, instead of providing reasoning for why they think windwaker looks good, they just call people that type of gamer, and walk away feeling smug, they like the graphics because someone else liked them, not because of any real reasoning...

At least, that's how most of the comments in this thread come off...

Probably because people think good graphics are to some extent self evident. We all have eyeballs, so how necessary is it to go into a detailed verbal analysis? Turning your point on its head, you never really see a thoughtful critique of WW's graphics beyond "they're kiddy" or Link "looks totally uninspired", which isn't telling anything more than people who simply say they look fantastic. And really, at least people who like the graphics occasionally mention specifics like the animation, whereas I don't know that I've ever heard anything but generalized shit talking from those who don't.

P.S.- I'm avoiding the temptation of making fun of your awful grammar because I'm assuming English is your second language.

 

[beelzebozo]

bright, colorful, clean, simplification of features allows for greater expressiveness, your mom, fluidity of animation, etc.

i see nothing confusing about liking WIND WAKER's graphics.

 

[selig]

I prefer Wind Waker's. Mostly because it will look good a generation or two from now, whereas TP will be hideous.

But isnt that because of the technique of toon shading? If TWW had a more "normal" artystle like TP, but toon shading, it´d also look beautiful in a generation from now. As I said, Im a fan of toon shading, just not TWW´s picture book-artstyle.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

But isnt that because of the technique of toon shading? If TWW had a more "normal" artystle like TP, but toon shading, it´d also look beautiful in a generation from now. As I said, Im a fan of toon shading, just not TWW´s picture book-artstyle.

And that picture book artstyle was made possible by cel-shading, which is why it will look good forever, as opposed to Twilight Princess, which (while it admittedly had some really nice spots, artwise), looked like feces on the day of its release.

 

[Vinci]

But isnt that because of the technique of toon shading? If TWW had a more "normal" artystle like TP, but toon shading, it´d also look beautiful in a generation from now. As I said, Im a fan of toon shading, just not TWW´s picture book-artstyle.

Cel shading is the basis for why its art style works, of course, but there are older cel shaded games that don't stand up that well later on. As much as I loved JGR, it's not at all attractive anymore; neither is XIII.

What makes Wind Waker so visually attractive isn't just cel shading, it's how cleanly they designed the characters. Everything looks perfectly smooth.

 

[selig]

What makes Wind Waker so visually attractive isn't just toon shading, it's how cleanly they designed the characters. Everything looks perfectly smooth.

Yeah, but...again, you can do that with less picture-book-y designs, too I mean, there´s not only black and white, but some middle ground between TWW and TP.

 

[Sadist]

The same thing happens with other games. Mario galaxy reviewers never provided a score for the story, yet still provide the game with perfects, people never question it, never asked "how is it possible this game without a story can stack up to metroid, or half life?".

Because people acknowledge the fact that if there is one game that doesn't need a story, it's Mario.

Well, people also do the same thing for windwaker, instead of providing reasoning for why they think windwaker looks good, they just call people that type of gamer, and walk away feeling smug, they like the graphics because someone else liked them, not because of any real reasoning...

At least, that's how most of the comments in this thread come off...

In other words, we are smug sheep? Get out of town. I like the WW's style because it makes the game feel "alive". It's the animations that give me this feeling (like how Link's eyes look in every direction and other facial expressions. Other characters feel alive as well) and the great use of colours en the overall design. It's almost perfect.

 

[Vinci]

Yeah, but...again, you can do that with less picture-book-y designs, too I mean, there´s not only black and white, but some middle ground between TWW and TP.

Honestly, I'm not sure you could. But I'm hardly an expert on the subject. I think the fact that their philosophy was to make it look and move like an animated movie played a pretty strong role in how well the art style turned out. Some designs are better than others at accomplishing different tasks even if (in a more general sense) the two art styles might be equivalent.

 

[Oblivion]

Honestly, I'm not sure you could.

Why not? I'd love to see a Zelda that looks like the cel shaded cutscenes in that Fire Emblem game for the GC.

 

[Vinci]

Why not? I'd love to see a Zelda that looks like the cel shaded cutscenes in that Fire Emblem game for the GC.

So would I. I'm just suggesting that I think part of the reason why Wind Waker worked so well in that art style is because of their intent which dictated the precise designs they went with. Could it work for other designs? It's possible. I have no idea. Part of me can't imagine they didn't test something less story-book (as selig calls it) though before settling on this look.

 

[Souldriver]

edit

 

[Marlowe89]

The only reason you like it is because others dislike it.

Actually, you've got it ass-backwards. Most people love TWW's art style; the majority of that very small percentage of people who dislike it are old Zelda fan vets accustomed to the more realistic design of past Zelda games like OoT or MM. It really is genuinely a fantastic art style because of the expression and life it conveys. If you can't see that, joke's on you.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

bright, colorful, clean, simplification of features allows for greater expressiveness, your mom, fluidity of animation, etc.

i see nothing confusing about liking WIND WAKER's graphics.

Seriously.

Link's field of expression in TP is limited to, what: neutral, bored, mildly surprised, and "I'm doin' alright, I guess"?

WW Link is way more emotive in comparison.

 

[brandonh83]

I don't think we'd argue about the expressiveness per se, we're just of the mind that the actual design is bad. I wouldn't be upset if Spirit Tracks is the last installment with that particular art direction.

 

[beelzebozo]

Seriously.

Link's field of expression in TP is limited to, what: neutral, bored, mildly surprised, and "I'm doin' alright, I guess"?

WW Link is way more emotive in comparison.

i can actually imagine the specific looks of surprise and then anger link would make when presented with the idea that WW's graphics are bad.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

In terms of design, I always felt they should have gone with the Link from the Wind Waker reveal, with the different colors.

 

[GeneralIroh]

I want to say this a joke post but sadly I think you're being serious...WW Link's character model, and the models in the game in general, were some of the best most expressive characters I've seen in any videogame

I think the design looks like shit. He looks more like a cat than a warrior. His huge head reminds me of power puff girls. TP was just as expressive. He might not be as simplified as TWW link but you can see deeper and more detailed facial expressions.

 

[curls]

I don't think we'd argue about the expressiveness per se, we're just of the mind that the actual design is bad. I wouldn't be upset if Spirit Tracks is the last installment with that particular art direction.

What? The design of the enemy characters in WW were brilliant.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

While playing God of War 3 I couldn't help but wonder what a Zelda game with action like that would be like. I will be pleasantly surprised if the action is beefed up to that extent in Zelda while still maintaining that deep sense of exploration which GOW3 lacks.

Well, folks. Someone has surpassed Selig's ideas. :lol :lol

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I think the design looks like shit. He looks more like a cat than a warrior. His huge head reminds me of power puff girls. TP was just as expressive. He might not be as simplified as TWW link but you can see deeper and more detailed facial expressions.

:lol

TP Link looked like a high functioning retard whenever he made any expression besides steely eyed determination.