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[Amir0x]

Who is the guy in your avatar ?

That's Matt Smith aka "The Doctor", from New Doctor Who Season 5 :lol :lol

 

[wind_steaker]

Ha, it's the new Dr in Dr Who. with a Jammy Dodger.

 

[daakusedo]

A lot of people just cant think with wider view.
They play 3d Zeldas for more than ten years, so getting used to the mechanics is obvious.
And be more approchable just dont wanna say the game is easy, thats just dumbed down thinking.

Get ready for the unveil.

 

[Amir0x]

Ha, it's the new Dr in Dr Who. with a Jammy Dodger.

They're delicious!

 

[Scootydowopp]

I knew somebody would bring SoC sooner or later, after all every game is ripping things off of that game ever since it came out:lol

I don't get this comment at all. I always see it whenever the game is brought up, but it never has merit.
The most innovative thing about the game is the controls you utilize when you ride Agro, and the game structure of sole boss run.

Everything else has been done in previous gens.
Big bosses weren't invented in 2005. Puzzle bosses weren't invented in 2005.

Its like when people said the water temple boss was reminiscent of SOTC in Twilight Princess......Wtf?!
Was this your first Zelda game?

I mean, i love the game, its the only one i kept out of my ps2 collection, but the one thing it truly innovated in hasn't been picked up ANYWHERE, yet where it brought no innovations, people want to give it credit?

Best game on ps2, but the incorrect wanking is annoying...

 

[selig]

A lot of people just cant think with wider view.
They play 3d Zeldas for more than ten years, so getting used to the mechanics is obvious.
And be more approchable just dont wanna say the game is easy, thats just dumbed down thinking.

Get ready for the unveil.

It is actually quite easy to get how Zelda Wii is going to be more approachable.
Thanks to MotionPlus.

In previous Zelda-games: Press that and that and that button at the right time to hit the enemy. Dont forget to lock on, too!

In Zelda Wii: There´s an enemy. He´s coming. Hit it. (and that´s really all a casual gamer has to know). It´s more approachable, but still a lot deeper to individually swing your sword than using capped moves.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

The wait for E3 is killing me. We have about 4 weeks left, but it feels like an eternity. Thankfully I'm taking 3 summer classes, so that should make time go by pretty fast. :lol

 

[wind_steaker]

They're delicious!

I was promised tea!

on topic: I'm all for this if it means less item switching... but who knows, I'll wait till E3.

(please dont be WM+ only :'( )

 

[demosthenes]

I think modern day Nintendo has a hard time differentiating between complex and convoluted. Something can have depth and still be accessible, and conversely something can be shallow and unintuitive.

Great post and I agree 100%.

 

[Celine]

on topic: I'm all for this if it means less item switching... but who knows, I'll wait till E3.

(please dont be WM+ only)

Sorry, pal.

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/02/03/zelda_motion_plus_and_playable_at_e3/

 

[klier]

Aonuma is the reason Zelda is in the shithole right now.

This.
For God's sake, give that guy an fresh new IP to work on, and don't let him make Zelda even more stale.

 

[DieNgamers]

This.
For God's sake, give that guy an fresh new IP to work on, and don't let him make Zelda even more stale.

He's in the middle of producing a new Zelda nobody has seen yet so you may want to wait till after that with thoughts like this.

 

[upandaway]

Mario Galaxy was one of the only games where they actually specifically went AGAINST that trend, even going so far as to explicitly state they wanted the sequel to be harder.

The result is what they said. Here, they are specifically saying the opposite and I'm going to expect the opposite - toned down crap for the hand-crippled set.

Mario Galaxy is NOT an example of something being more 'approachable.' It is as complicated if not more so than any other 3D Mario to date.

That's why it's one of the best games of all time.

But Galaxy IS more approachable than Mario 64 or Sunshine. At least, in a certain way (objectives, for one. Galaxy 2 has clear MIDPOINTS), and that's enough that Miyamoto can say the same about Zelda without referring to waggle waggle chika bow wow wow.

 

[big black woman]

so basically they are mainstreaming it like mario kart wii and nsmb wii... :-(

 

[robor]

It is actually quite easy to get how Zelda Wii is going to be more approachable.
Thanks to MotionPlus.

In previous Zelda-games: Press that and that and that button at the right time to hit the enemy. Dont forget to lock on, too!

In Zelda Wii: There´s an enemy. He´s coming. Hit it. (and that´s really all a casual gamer has to know). It´s more approachable, but still a lot deeper to individually swing your sword than using capped moves.

Selig, through out this entire thread, I've never agreed with someone as much as I have with you right now. Good stuff, keep it coming. MontionPlus indeed. This was my argument with the next Metroid 2D game in that Other M thread and how possible it can be to add something new and original in that dimension. I believe it will only work if the hardware is innovative enough i.e. the controller interface. This is the key to the next Zelda, MotionPlus is a device that capitalizes on human intuition, which is the quickest and most viable option for a player of any class to pick up and adjust to the learning curve.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

As long as genius decisions like first-person view in MP are born thanks to Miyamoto, I want him to do all my Zelda. Unlike Aonuma, who f**** up enough Zelda-games already. Miyamoto for gameplay, Tezuka for story, presentation and lore, and we´d have the perfect Zelda-game.

Takashi Tezuka is a graphic artist and level designer. Kensuke Tanabe wrote A Link To The Past, Kensuke Tanabe and Yoshiaki Koizumi wrote Link's Awakening. I don't think there is a such thing as a "Tezuka story".

How did Aonuma "f*** up enough Zeldas"? How are people making some imaginary distinction of "Miyamoto only supervising" the games they like?

It's been a downhill roll and Aonuma clearly needs some kind of guidance to understand what the series is. He's like a third-party who mines the classic Nintendo formula for a game and completely misses the essential things that gave those games heart. He's a technician, not an artist.

What? That analogy is rough. But Eiji Aonuma laid the blueprints of 3D field design at EAD. Those awesome dungeons in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask ring a bell? He graduated with a degree in art / graphic design.. and you are dubbing that he isn't an artist? Well then who is out of all the active designers at Nintendo? O_O

 

[AceBandage]

so basically they are mainstreaming it like mario kart wii and nsmb wii... :-(

And why is that a bad thing?
NMSBWii is considered the hardest 2D Mario outside of Lost Levels.

 

[Dascu]

You know, at least Sonic fanboys are somewhat consistent in which games they praise and which games they hate.

 

[Amir0x]

But Galaxy IS more approachable than Mario 64 or Sunshine. At least, in a certain way (objectives, for one. Galaxy 2 has clear MIDPOINTS), and that's enough that Miyamoto can say the same about Zelda without referring to waggle waggle chika bow wow wow.

Galaxy is absolutely not more approachable than Mario 64 or Sunshine. To me, it's bizarre anyone can even make this assertion. It is significantly more complex in numerous ways: the interesting ways gravity effects Mario's movements. The "acclimation" new users have to get to the perspective shifts, upside down and rightside up. The controls add yet more layers to Mario's basic pallet, beyond any of the previous 3D Mario games - you have sweeping of star bits with gestural motions, you have spins and shakes and jumps and pivots. All sorts of abilities combined to make this the most control-heavy Mario yet. You have comets that have you racing against time, objectives where you can't get hit.

Mario 64 had objectives too. So did Sunshine. They're simply more clearly defined here. Midpoints is hardly a point that can outweigh the vast number of ways Galaxy made things MORE complicated.

And that's just the start!

This is not a negative thing though. This is good. Not all franchises need to be toned down for some mystical non-gamer set who hates games anyway. Some need to have that layer of complexity to effectively pull off its numerous creative gameplay offerings.

Now, verdict is out on Zelda, which was already worrisome with the Motion+ focus, but I don't really like to hear Miyamoto is trying to make a franchise which has already become distractingly easy even more so. But if he's just talking about controls which will somehow have no impact on the complexity of the game design, then we'll see in a few weeks.

 

[beelzebozo]

Zelda controls aren't complicated though, they're standard 3D controls with automatic jump.

going into a menu every time you need a new item isn't "complicated," but it's certainly a pain in the ass for some, and tedious. so you have a few options:

1. reduce the number of times the player has to switch items
2. reduce the number of items and develop different kinds of puzzles
3. create a new, more streamlined way to switch between items

for the record, my preference is three.

i think this sort of silly crap is what they're talking about, though i could be totally wrong.

 

[selig]

Takashi Tezuka is a graphic artist and level designer. Kensuke Tanabe wrote A Link To The Past, Kensuke Tanabe and Yoshiaki Koizumi wrote Link's Awakening. I don't think there is a such thing as a "Tezuka story".

Then replace Tezuka with Tanabe. But keep him. Afaik, 3 people created the Zelda we know, Miyamoto, Tezuka and Tanabe. So just let these three guys make a Zelda-game.

How did Aonuma "f*** up enough Zeldas"? How are people making some imaginary distinction of "Miyamoto only supervising" the games they like?

"f*****ing up in this context doesnt mean that Aonuma created bad games. But he proved not to be able to break free from the typical Zelda-formula, thus leading the series into the stalemate its in now. People praise Aonuma for MM, but apparently MM´s most innovative feature, the 3-day-cycle, is a Miyamoto-idea.
Aonuma is a capable designer/director/producer, but he lacks one important thing...at least important to the current Zelda-franchise: Vision

 

[Hobbun]

This.
For God's sake, give that guy an fresh new IP to work on, and don't let him make Zelda even more stale.

Besides, look at what Zelda has done to this poor man in only a few years:


Twilight Princess

Spirit Tracks

 

[Amir0x]

For the record, whatever one thinks of Okami, it had the absolute best method of item management of any Zelda-like game.

Because all abilities were performed with different strokes of the brush, every single item was at your disposal at all times without the need to switch between in a menu. It would be novel if they could do something like that here, particularly since the remote is, well, a wand.

 

[beelzebozo]

but drawing the brush strokes with an analog stick was shitty. okami wii improved this significantly though.

 

[AceBandage]

For the record, whatever one thinks of Okami, it had the absolute best method of item management of any Zelda-like game.

Because all abilities were performed with different strokes of the brush, every single item was at your disposal at all times without the need to switch between in a menu. It would be novel if they could do something like that here, particularly since the remote is, well, a wand.

Which is why many are speculating that the girl turns into your items.
That would make the item management so much easier to just have her change forms with the press of a button or wag of the remote.

 

[Amir0x]

but drawing the brush strokes with an analog stick was shitty. okami wii improved this significantly though.

Completely disagree, the Wii version of Okami was atrocious.

But that's not the point of my comment anyway.

 

[beelzebozo]

you're right, the one aspect you're pointing out as potentially beneficial & applicable to zelda was the biggest improvement in the wii version.

 

[Dascu]

I wonder if it'll have some kind of Guide mode with Tingle demonstrating how to solve a puzzle or fight a boss. That would be so awesome.

 

[AceBandage]

I wonder if it'll have some kind of Guide mode with Tingle demonstrating how to solve a puzzle or fight a boss. That would be so awesome.

Tingle Guide?
I think that would scare more people off than anything.

 

[Amir0x]

you're right, the one aspect you're pointing out as potentially beneficial & applicable to zelda was the biggest improvement in the wii version.

Because I am not one of the hand-crippled motor skill-fucked "gamers" we're talking about in this thread, I had no problem with the dual shock implementation. The strokes were explicitly simple for simple dual shock movements, and every single stroke was super easy to pull off and super quick. I never made a mistake and I always got the item I want in a second. I found it better and more precise than the Wii implementation of the wand strokes.

But again, that's not the point. Wii version, PS2 version... in both games, the item management is infinitely better than any Zelda game. For the fundamentals of my point, the only thing that matters is this item management concept.

 

[GaussTek]

Besides, look at what Zelda has done to this poor man in only a few years:

Spirit Tracks

Damn, I know this is off topic, but does anyone know if the cable (or whatever he is using) to stream the DS signal to the TV is available somewhere? :lol

 

[Dascu]

Tingle Guide?
I think that would scare more people off than anything.

Hopefully it would scare off the bad kind of fanboys who are so insecure they need "dark badass epic stories" in their Zelda games.

 

[beelzebozo]

super guide absolutely must be in this game, in some form. it's interesting how that's had pretty much the opposite effect that many thought it would have on the mario games, regarding difficulty.

 

[Hobbun]

super guide absolutely must be in this game, in some form. it's interesting how that's had pretty much the opposite effect that many thought it would have on the mario games, regarding difficulty.

Why do you feel it 'must' be in this game?

Not that I would care either way, if I don't want to use it, I will just avoid using it. But I am just curious why you feel it it is mandatory?

 

[AceBandage]

Why do you feel it 'must' be in this game?

Not that I would care either way, if I don't want to use it, I will just avoid using it. But I am just curious why you feel it it is mandatory?

The inclusion of super guide would mean that the puzzles in the game were a lot more complex than we're use to.

 

[MYE]

Mario Galaxy is NOT an example of something being more 'approachable.' It is as complicated if not more so than any other 3D Mario to date.

That's why it's one of the best games of all time.

smh

If i was a game designer i would certainly wish that the world would be full of Amiroxes.
Your formula to success and general mindset is so basic and predictable that taking your cash would be as easy as stealing candy from a 5 year old.

 

[beelzebozo]

Why do you feel it 'must' be in this game?

Not that I would care either way, if I don't want to use it, I will just avoid using it. But I am just curious why you feel it it is mandatory?

i don't feel it's mandatory, of course. but i do endorse the increasing of difficulty in portions of the game, and giving those who can't bypass that portion the option of being assisted. it proved to be a big success and a nice compromise in NSMBW, so me saying it "must" be there is just me being a weenie and asserting my own feeling that to not put it in would be daft.

 

[Hobbun]

The inclusion of super guide would mean that the puzzles in the game were a lot more complex than we're use to.

Has it been confirmed that Nintendo ups the difficulty/changes the completxity with the inclusion of the Super Guide?

 

[beelzebozo]

Has it been confirmed that Nintendo makes the games more difficult in general with the inclusion of the Super Guide?

of course not. i'm making wild assumptions.

but go with me on this!

 

[AceBandage]

Has it been confirmed that Nintendo makes the games more difficult in general with the inclusion of the Super Guide?

They certainly aren't making them easier.
Both NSMBWii and Galaxy 2 are much harder than the other Mario games.

 

[Hobbun]

of course not. i'm making wild assumptions.

but go with me on this!

Ok. Again, I was just curious, if they do increase the difficulty of the game/complexity of the puzzles, that is only a good thing.

 

[Dascu]

Has it been confirmed that Nintendo ups the difficulty/changes the completxity with the inclusion of the Super Guide?

Yes, it says so in the Official Nintendo Game Design Handbook that they keep locked away in a chest inside a dungeon below their Kyoto office. I hear it's guarded by the ghost of Gunpei Yokoi.

 

[jetsetfluken]

I think the whole "make games easier to appeal tp larger audiences" started when Iwata came around, back during the GCN generation.
WW took a hit from this mentality (overall), as did TP and the GBA/DS games.

And now they want to make that a notch even easier?

Somehow I think Miyamoto is only existing as a messenger/spokesperson for current Nintendo's ideals.

With all that said, these issues can be easily solved by difficulty settings. Would be nice to just play on "very hard" instead of make up fake goals (3-heart run, etc).

 

[Hobbun]

Yes, it says so in the Official Nintendo Game Design Handbook that they keep locked away in a chest inside a dungeon below their Kyoto office. I hear it's guarded by the ghost of Gunpei Yokoi.

Hey, maybe they have a copy in the new Redmond office.

 

[Diablohead]

Damn, I know this is off topic, but does anyone know if the cable (or whatever he is using) to stream the DS signal to the TV is available somewhere? :lol

DEV unit DS most probably, would love to see a tv-out model in the shops though.

 

[upandaway]

Galaxy is absolutely not more approachable than Mario 64 or Sunshine. To me, it's bizarre anyone can even make this assertion. It is significantly more complex in numerous ways: the interesting ways gravity effects Mario's movements. The "acclimation" new users have to get to the perspective shifts, upside down and rightside up. The controls add yet more layers to Mario's basic pallet, beyond any of the previous 3D Mario games - you have sweeping of star bits with gestural motions, you have spins and shakes and jumps and pivots. All sorts of abilities combined to make this the most control-heavy Mario yet. You have comets that have you racing against time, objectives where you can't get hit.

Mario 64 had objectives too. So did Sunshine. They're simply more clearly defined here. Midpoints is hardly a point that can outweigh the vast number of ways Galaxy made things MORE complicated.

And that's just the start!

This is not a negative thing though. This is good. Not all franchises need to be toned down for some mystical non-gamer set who hates games anyway. Some need to have that layer of complexity to effectively pull off its numerous creative gameplay offerings.

Now, verdict is out on Zelda, which was already worrisome with the Motion+ focus, but I don't really like to hear Miyamoto is trying to make a franchise which has already become distractingly easy even more so. But if he's just talking about controls which will somehow have no impact on the complexity of the game design, then we'll see in a few weeks.

When you mention gravity, it doesn't define any wall in front of a light player. They know how gravity works. But then, you get to the fly hat's activation or the FLUDD, and they are things that need to be explained to the player. In the end, gravity ends up creating more options and scenarios to the player, it even generates more difficulty, but it's simpler.

Same can happen with Zelda. I honestly can't think up any immediate comparisons except for lock-on.


The following is something I wrote before I realized how obvious it is, but fuck I won't delete it:

It's game mechanics versus game controls. The more controls you have the more complicated it is, but even with more mechanics and variables there are in the game world, if you have simple controls, anyone can do it, it's just a question of difficulty.
And I mentioned midpoints as some proof of "going from point A to point B" objectives, not as a sign of being easier, sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

[Amir0x]

smh

If i was a game designer i would certainly wish that the world would be full of Amiroxes.
Your formula to success and general mindset is so basic and predictable that taking your cash would be as easy as stealing candy from a 5 year old.

Formula to success?

My formula is for good games. I don't care about grandma, I don't care about your aunts or uncles, I don't care about bob next door or little nicky down on grove street. I don't care how the game fucking sells.

I care about what makes a game fun for me. And it SHOULD be that simple to know what one likes. Here's what doesn't make good games:

1. Insulting my intelligence via terrible story telling with sweeping, morally black-and-white themes, hilariously easy "puzzles" (fuck you Uncharted 2, Phantom Hourglass), super guide, etc
2. Assuming I am a retard via hand-holding, lame puzzles, explicitly stating solutions, "simplifying" controls for the motor skill impaired
3. The "easier is better" mantra. The general trend in the industry that believes that the easier something is, the less complex it is, the more likely it is to not frustrate Grandma, and the more likely you'll have that 0.2% chance that she will care a shit about your product. Nintendo is hardly the only offender here. It's a huge industry-wide trend.

 

[selig]

With all that said, these issues can be easily solved by difficulty settings. Would be nice to just play on "very hard" instead of make up fake goals (3-heart run, etc).

Yeah, "fake", because it´s not like they give you the choice of pickung up heart-containers to individually adjust difficulty. And what would be more awesome than a higher difficulty, that has you hitting one and the same enemy 10 instead of 3 times, while keeping the very same strategy. Im absolutely sure it would not be boring and repetitive.

Spoiler

Oh snap!

Edit:

It´s funny how "less complex" keeps being mentioned in this topic. If anything, MotionPlus will give Zelda Wii a hella lot more complexity WHILE becoming more approachable. Which is what Miyamoto said in that interview.

 

[Celine]

Aonuma is a capable designer/director/producer, but he lacks one important thing...at least important to the current Zelda-franchise: Vision

Bullshit.

 

[GregLombardi]

All this discussion for a game that hasn't yet even been shown. Of course, the discussion is valid, but I would urge people to hold off on drawing any conclusions here.

Miyamoto's statement that "we will see how fun it is when we play it" somehow convinces me and washes away any fears.