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[RoadHazard]

Why would they start to make things that do not make sense with the PS4?

What doesn't make sense? Fully caching all games you play? It makes perfect sense, since the reason they're doing it is to overcome the slow BD read speeds.

So yes, data is wiped once you stop playing. That's the definition of a cache. It's temporary.

Again, that would be incredibly stupid, and would make the entire thing almost completely pointless. Why start the entire caching process over from scratch every time the game is played? No, the only thing that makes sense is that the cached data is left on the HDD so that the game can access it much faster next time you play.

 

[sneaky77]

Jeez. They specifically say CACHING and not INSTALLING. They even said you can't do a full install of the game.

So yes, data is wiped once you stop playing. That's the definition of a cache. It's temporary.

they wouldn't need to cache 49gb if it was done every session

 

[Finalizer]

So yes, data is wiped once you stop playing. That's the definition of a cache. It's temporary.

Or it simply sits on the HDD until it gets overwritten by whatever-the-fuck-else, through some magical algorithms based on age of data, frequency of access, etc.

This kind of method actually makes a lot of sense thinking about it. Common sense says with these massive game sizes that 500GB would fill up pretty quickly with just a few games, not to mention saving shared video shit and whatever else players may end up doing. This would give Sony a way to allow casuals/less tech-inclined folks a way to install games without having to bother with all the data management by making it all automatic, and the installation process just gets hidden by loading screens thanks to the whole install-while-you-play stuff. Would be nice if there's an option to force a permanent installation though.

 

[Raist]

They are using the wrong terminology. Up to this point they've said games will install fully to the HDD. It would be weird for that to change all of a sudden.

A cache method would be incredibly inefficient, putting strain on the HDD and Blu-Ray drive.

They never said that. Even Cerny said data from the games would gradually be put onto the HDD. That doesn't equal a permanent, full install.
Yoshida even said so on twitter (posted on the previous page". "You can't fully install disks on the HDD". It would make no sesnse for him to say this if it actually happened automatically anyway.

they wouldn't need to cache 49gb if it was done every session

Wouldn't they? What happens if you play the game in it entirety and you only had 30GB left to begin with?
They give you the max possible space it would need. Which doesn't even need to be the actual space required permanently.

An example of this is compressed files that are blown up to something much larger than what ends up being installed, because there's a lot of temporary files. It's very frequent.

 

[RoadHazard]

They never said that. Even Cerny said data from the games would gradually be put onto the HDD. That doesn't equal a permanent, full install.
Yoshida even said so on twitter (posted on the previous page". "You can't fully install disks on the HDD". It would make no sesnse for him to say this if it actually happened automatically anyway.

Please explain why the game boxes state minimum storage requirements of 49 GB and such? Because the entire game gets cached, little by little, that's why. Deleting all this data as soon as you quit the game would be really dumb.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

oh, that's cool. i assume the xbox one actually does install the game though?

Yeah they do I guess. Sucks though since you can't change hard drives on the XB1 and who know how running games off of an external will work out.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I find it hard to believe that you'd need to do so much data transfer every time you play a game o_o.

 

[RoadHazard]

I find it hard to believe that you'd need to do so much data transfer every time you play a game o_o.

Of course you don't. I don't know where some people have gotten such a weird idea from. Re-caching everything every time you play would make the cache pretty much useless.

 

[Caronte]

1-2 hours.

The games will be fully installing to the HDD through this method.

When you play 5 or 6 games after the first one, will it still be fully installed when you go back to it? Or will it read from the disk again?

 

[Raist]

Please explain why the game boxes state minimum storage requirements of 49 GB and such? Because the entire game gets cached, little by little, that's why. Deleting all this data as soon as you quit the game would be really dumb.

Minumum requirements are not an indication of what goes on and how much data is actually put on your hard drive permanently or anything. Just look at PC games.

 

[ckohler]

All this arguing over what "installing" means makes me want to bang my head against a wall. The official statements so far are:

1. Disc based games will automatically install (cache) their data to the hdd
2. "Install" does not mean "play without the disc inserted"
3. This will happen in the background without the user needing to do anything

 

[Bedameister]

When you play 5 or 6 games after the first one, will it still be fully installed when you go back to it? Or will it read from the disk again?

That's the problem, no one knows. Sony really needs to clarify things

 

[gofreak]

Jeez. They specifically say CACHING and not INSTALLING. They even said you can't do a full install of the game.

So yes, data is wiped once you stop playing. That's the definition of a cache. It's temporary.

Data can be evicted, but when is another matter.

I doubt the data is deleted 'once you stop playing' e.g.

insert KZ disc
< data caching begins >
play KZ
stop playing KZ

come back later and play KZ <- KZ data is still in cache, at this point all or most data reads are off HDD

If basically all the disc data is cached then eventually the data will be reading entirely off the HDD, same as an install. Cerny's comment seems to point to that.

If another game is played in between those two sessions then some of its data will push out some of the KZ data. But I don't think new game data wipes another game's data entirely. I think it's more gradual depending on game progress. So when you come back to KZ after the other game, maybe some data needs to be read off disc and recached, maybe some doesn't. Maybe none does if the data relating to the part of the game you're now playing was untouched by game number 2.

What I am wondering is if you can control the cache size. That way if you want to keep - say - 4 games 'installed', without overwriting each others' cached data - you would set the cache size to 200GB.

I would be surprised if the cache is 50GB only, or if that was the max allowed. Maybe the cache is or can be bigger and the label on the back of the boxes is indicating how much cache space the game will ultimately occupy when fully cached?

 

[RoadHazard]

When you play 5 or 6 games after the first one, will it still be fully installed when you go back to it? Or will it read from the disk again?

This is what we don't know. My guess is that it will still be cached if there's enough room on your HDD. If there isn't, your least used game cache will be deleted to make room for new cache data as you play more games. In that case that first game will have to be re-cached when you play it again, of course.

I would be surprised if the cache is 50GB only, or if that was the max allowed. Maybe the cache is or can be bigger and the label on the back of the boxes is indicating how much cache space the game will ultimately occupied when fully cached?

Yep, this is what I believe. It makes much more sense than the alternatives. So the question is really just whether or not you can decide how large the cache area on the HDD is.

 

[BigDug13]

All this arguing over what "installing" means makes me want to bang my head against a wall. The official statements so far are:

1. Disc based games will automatically install (cache) their data to the hdd
2. "Install" does not mean "play without the disc inserted"
3. This will happen in the background without the user needing to do anything

Ok but what if we want it like the 360? I click triangle on the XMB icon for the game to show the available options, one of the options is "install game". Then once that is complete, the disc is only used for verification and the optical drive never gets used during gameplay.

I want the option to install the game just like I can on 360 as well as the option to let it perform with both optical disc and HDD.

 

[Raist]

Data can be evicted, but when is another matter.

I doubt the data is deleted 'once you stop playing' e.g.

insert KZ disc
< data caching begins >
play KZ
stop playing KZ

come back later and play KZ <- KZ data is still in cache, at this point all or most data reads are off HDD

If basically all the disc data is cached then eventually the data will be reading entirely off the HDD, same as an install. Cerny's comment seems to point to that.

If another game is played in between those two sessions then some of its data will push out some of the KZ data. But I don't think new game data wipes another game's data entirely. I think it's more gradual depending on game progress. So when you come back to KZ after the other game, maybe some data needs to be read off disc and recached, maybe some doesn't. Maybe none does if the data relating to the part of the game you're now playing was untouched by game number 2.

What I am wondering is if you can control the cache size. That way if you want to keep - say - 4 games 'installed', without overwriting each others' cached data - you would set the cache size to 200GB.

I would be surprised if the cache is 50GB only, or if that was the max allowed. Maybe the cache is or can be bigger and the label on the back of the boxes is indicating how much cache space the game will ultimately occupied when fully cached?

Or that, yeah. Doesn't really matter. My point is, this is not a full mandatory install. I wouldn't even be surprised if games actually don't install as much as what's on the box because these figures always take into account the fact that you need to leave some free space, and there are also compressed data that need to be uncompressed very temporarily.

If what was going on was actually a full, permanent install, this would make no sense:

 

[Bgamer90]

This is good for those that prefer this.

I would prefer a "one and done" full installation though.

 

[RoadHazard]

If what was going on was actually a full, permanent install, this would make no sense:

I think what he's really trying to say here is that you can't choose to manually install the full game before you start playing. Instead it will just happen automatically as you play. And IF you play enough of the game for all data on the disc to get accessed, then it will eventually become fully cached on the HDD. But there are no installs per se.

 

[BigDug13]

This is good for those that prefer this.

I would prefer a "one and done" full installation though.

I agree. I liked MS's implementation on 360. Sony's has always baffled me. "You mean I can't choose to install anything myself?"

For a company that says they pride themselves on providing consumer choice, they're certainly not doing it here.

 

[gofreak]

Or that, yeah. Doesn't really matter. My point is, this is not a full mandatory install. I wouldn't even be surprised if games actually don't install as much as what's on the box because these figures always take into account the fact that you need to leave some free space, and there are also compressed data that need to be uncompressed very temporarily.

If what was going on was actually a full, permanent install, this would make no sense:

Yeah, it's definitely not a permanent install.

However full caching of data would be technically possible - however you may get superior streaming performance if you do some of your accessing from disc and some from HDD in tandem, so maybe games have control over what happens there.

However I think if you have fairly regular game playing patterns (e.g. tend to play a few games in a given period, rather than randomly playing many games), and if you can have a cache size that accommodates a few games' 'full' data, then this setup would give the same benefit as mandatory installs to data access, but with a smaller HDD footprint vs installs of all your games and without any wait in the case of games that need to do upfront mandatory installs.

(Which leads me to another question - is Sony forbidding mandatory installs? They have been big on this philosophy of immediate play. Maybe this is their answer and devs won't be allowed do separate installs of data to another part of the HDD. Or maybe mandatory installs will still be allowed and this is an alternative for every other game.)

 

[RoadHazard]

I agree. I liked MS's implementation on 360. Sony's has always baffled me. "You mean I can't choose to install anything myself?"

For a company that says they pride themselves on providing consumer choice, they're certainly not doing it here.

But why would you even need the option, when it happens automatically as you play? Ok, yeah, it would reduce disc access during those first hours when everything is getting cached, but after that the experience should be identical.

 

[Xamdou]

So when all the game files are cached into the hard-drive, does the Blu-ray disc still spin in order to play games?

 

[NTIETS13A_Superiority]

Ok but what if we want it like the 360? I click triangle on the XMB icon for the game to show the available options, one of the options is "install game". Then once that is complete, the disc is only used for verification and the optical drive never gets used during gameplay.

I want the option to install the game just like I can on 360 as well as the option to let it perform with both optical disc and HDD.

Point is you do not need separate install as data is cached to hdd automatically. once all data cached is data from hdd only used. Point is to get rid of install times.

 

[ckohler]

Ok but what if we want it like the 360? I click triangle on the XMB icon for the game to show the available options, one of the options is "install game". Then once that is complete, the disc is only used for verification and the optical drive never gets used during gameplay.

I want the option to install the game just like I can on 360 as well as the option to let it perform with both optical disc and HDD.

What you might want and what we're actually getting are different issues. I'm only interested in the facts of what it will or won't do, not people's expectations.

 

[gofreak]

So when all the game files are cached into the hard-drive, does the Blu-ray disc still spin in order to play games?

If the game doesn't need better streaming performance than the HDD allows on its own then there'd be no need to spin the disc, it could just do all the reads from the hard drive.

But for sure the disc needs to be in the drive still, for authentication.

 

[viveks86]

Ok but what if we want it like the 360? I click triangle on the XMB icon for the game to show the available options, one of the options is "install game". Then once that is complete, the disc is only used for verification and the optical drive never gets used during gameplay.

I want the option to install the game just like I can on 360 as well as the option to let it perform with both optical disc and HDD.

They got you covered as well.

Anders Lauritsen &#8207;@LightningAnders 30 Aug
@yosp Dear Shuei. Wil we be able to do full game installs to HDD from disc (Disc present in tray for verification) on PS4?

Shuhei Yoshida
&#8207;@yosp
@LightningAnders yes
12:46 AM - 30 Aug 13

 

[RoadHazard]

They got you covered as well.

Haha, Shu is confusing everyone with his contradictory and vague tweets. He might not mean that you can manually install games here, he could just be referring to the fact that games will automatically get fully cached on the HDD if you play them long enough.

 

[gofreak]

They got you covered as well.

He seems to contradict that in the other tweet above.

With all these old tweets plus the new tweets in the OP it's getting a bit confusing.

What I take from the most recent tweet:

- there won't be any mandatory installs, games cache data to a fixed partition in the background, so if a game needs HDD data access, that's how it achieves it.

However I think total clarification on whether you can do an optional full install to disc would be welcome.

 

[Caronte]

However full caching of data would be technically possible - however you may get superior streaming performance if you do some of your accessing from disc and some from HDD in tandem, so maybe games have control over what happens there.

Digital games wouldn't make use of that, so I don't see the point.

 

[golem]

Why doesnt someone just ask yosp if I play Killzone then CoD how much space is used on my hdd?

 

[mangochutney]

Not fully installed, though. Which is what many of us wanted. It seems like it will be the same as how GTA V works, but instead of installing everything it needs at the beginning it will do it while playing the game.

I wish they would have given the option to install everything.

Well, what you want really is a mixture of the two.

You want the option to full install but you've be sitting there for decades waiting for that, so really what you want is the small initial install and then for the background data move to be permanent not just a cache!

Easy solution here is offer an install option, else only cache. That way you can have your full installs and people who don't want to keep deleting games can use the cache method.

 

[Briarios]

Please explain why the game boxes state minimum storage requirements of 49 GB and such? Because the entire game gets cached, little by little, that's why. Deleting all this data as soon as you quit the game would be really dumb.

This is really obvious, so I hope I'm not stating something that was already explained.

The PS4 environment has two sorts of games: disc & download. If you download PSN & retail releases, that will be permanently used on your HDD. The reason the retail box says 49gb required, is because it needs that much room to cache. If it isn't available, you can't run the game. Clearly, that space will still be available when you run other games or download - which, if you fill up with a downloadable title, will stop your retail titles from working.

So, the disc version of COD will temporarily use that space while the download will permanently use it.

 

[Caronte]

Well, what you want really is a mixture of the two.

You want the option to full install but you've be sitting there for decades waiting for that, so really what you want is the small initial install and then for the background data move to be permanent not just a cache!

Easy solution here is offer an install option, else only cache. That way you can have your full installs and people who don't want to keep deleting games can use the cache method.

Yeah, this would be the best option for me.

 

[jbug617]

Sorry this subject is not related to the topic but I was wondering if you have to buy anything extra to have your PS4 stand up? I know they showed a stand accessory but I haven't seen anywhere you can purchase that.

 

[JonathanPower]

What doesn't make sense? Fully caching all games you play? It makes perfect sense, since the reason they're doing it is to overcome the slow BD read speeds.

Well, it does not make sense because you gain nothing in terms of loading times if you copy all the FMVs to the HDD for example. You only need some specific data for fast caching. Let's quote this again:

jAx &#8207;@jacks81x 28 Aug
@antic604 @riki_achmadi @yosp You would still be able to install part of the game (if it's an option) for faster loads, like you can on PS3?

Shuhei Yoshida &#8207;@yosp 28 Aug
@jacks81x @antic604 @Riki_Achmadi right

This pretty much confirms that there are no full game installs.

 

[spwolf]

Ok but what if we want it like the 360? I click triangle on the XMB icon for the game to show the available options, one of the options is "install game". Then once that is complete, the disc is only used for verification and the optical drive never gets used during gameplay.

I want the option to install the game just like I can on 360 as well as the option to let it perform with both optical disc and HDD.

it should be faster to use both disc and HDD, so I doubt they will give you option to install on disc fully, it makes no sense at all to do that.

 

[gofreak]

Digital games wouldn't make use of that, so I don't see the point.

Well digital games will be fully installed, so the whole cache thing is irrelevant there.

In the case of Blu-ray games, they could get better access performance by using both blu-ray and HDD together. (Though that might give an advantage over the digital version...as was happening with GTAV)

 

[fatgamecat]

It will prob. be just like PS3. A mandatory install of a couple GB for frequent access, with the rest (movies and other infrequently accessed files) streamed from the disc.

If there's extra data cached aside from the install, that would be new.

 

[RoadHazard]

Well, it does not make sense because you gain nothing in terms of loading times if you copy all the FMVs to the HDD for example. You only need some specific data for fast caching. Let's quote this again:



This pretty much confirms that there are no full game installs.

It confirms no such thing. Cerny's quote is more of a confirmation that games will be fully cached on the HDD, along with KZSF and COD both requiring 40+ GB of free space to play. Why would they require that much space if they're not fully cached? COD requires 49 GB, you really don't think that's the entire game?

I do agree that caching video files and such wouldn't improve the performance of the game in any way, but it would allow the PS4 to completely stop reading the BD after a while.

 

[viveks86]

Haha, Shu is confusing everyone with his contradictory and vague tweets. He might not mean that you can manually install games here, he could just be referring to the fact that games will automatically get fully cached on the HDD if you play them long enough.

He seems to contradict that in the other tweet above.

With all these old tweets plus the new tweets in the OP it's getting a bit confusing.

What I take from the most recent tweet:

- there won't be any mandatory installs, games cache data to a fixed partition in the background, so if a game needs HDD data access, that's how it achieves it.

However I think total clarification on whether you can do an optional full install to disc would be welcome.

I don't think there is a contradiction if you take all those tweets in context. Here's what I think:

David Magalhães @DiamondDM13
@yosp Sorry to ask this here, but I'm confused. Does the PS4 have mandatory game installs to the HDD? Or is that optional?

Shuhei Yoshida @yosp
@DiamondDM13 it's automatic, not install but caching data
1:44 AM - 26 Oct 2013

This is in context of mandatory installs. Shu says the caching happens automatically in the background, so there is no such thing as a mandatory install. He does not talk about the presence or lack of optional install

Artur Godlewski &#8207;@antic604 27 Aug
@yosp With forced installs on PS4, will it be possible to play w/o disc in tray? I'd love to collect pretty boxes but hate swapping discs

Artur Godlewski &#8207;@antic604 27 Aug
@Riki_Achmadi @yosp But how would you prevent people from sharing the same disc & installing the game multiple times? On-line registration?

Riki Achmadi &#8207;@Riki_Achmadi 27 Aug
@antic604 @yosp well i thought it's pretty clear how Shuhei showed us how to "share" games with PS4..^^, so the answer is yes, you could.

Shuhei Yoshida
&#8207;@yosp
@Riki_Achmadi @antic604 I was using a digital version of games, you cannot install a disk version onto HDD.
4:55 AM - 27 Aug 13

This is in context of the question being asked. There is no way to install the disk version onto HDD and get rid of the disk.

Here is a follow up on the exact same twitter conversation:

jAx &#8207;@jacks81x 28 Aug
@antic604 @riki_achmadi @yosp You would still be able to install part of the game (if it's an option) for faster loads, like you can on PS3?

Shuhei Yoshida &#8207;@yosp 28 Aug
@jacks81x @antic604 @Riki_Achmadi right

This is confirmation that the option still exists.

And finally, the one I posted:

Anders Lauritsen &#8207;@LightningAnders 30 Aug
@yosp Dear Shuei. Wil we be able to do full game installs to HDD from disc (Disc present in tray for verification) on PS4?

Shuhei Yoshida
&#8207;@yosp
@LightningAnders yes
12:46 AM - 30 Aug 13

Again, explicit confirmation of the option for a full game install.

We need to look at twitter responses in context of the conversation, otherwise it can get really confusing

 

[Captain Tuttle]

https://twitter.com/yosp/status/372326407117889536

what in the world?

most confusing launch ever (both consoles)

 

[viveks86]

what in the world?

most confusing launch ever (both consoles)

Check my post above and let me know what you think.

 

[RoadHazard]

It will prob. be just like PS3. A mandatory install of a couple GB for frequent access, with the rest (movies and other infrequently accessed files) streamed from the disc.

If there's extra data cached aside from the install, that would be new.

It's not new. Cerny said it months ago. All data that is read from the disc is copied to the HDD so that it can be accessed faster in the future. Also, again, COD requires 49 GB, KZSF requires around 40. That's the entirety of those games.

 

[Darksol]

So glad to see there's caching going on.

 

[gofreak]

I don't think there is a contradiction if you take all those tweets in context. Here's what I think:



This is in context of mandatory installs. Shu says the caching happens automatically in the background, so there is no such thing as a mandatory install. He does not talk about the presence or lack of optional install



This is in context of the question being asked. There is no way to install the disk version onto HDD and get rid of the disk.

Here is a follow up on the exact same twitter conversation:



This is confirmation that the option still exists.

And finally, the one I posted:



Again, explicit confirmation of the option.

We need to look at twitter responses in context of the conversation, otherwise it can get really confusing

OK, thanks.

If you're correct about tweet number 3 really referring to getting rid of the disc, then it sounds like basically all bases are covered.

- No mandatory installs, devs must defer to auto caching
- Optional partial installs for improved performance are allowed though (if the dev wants to provide that option)
- Optional full installs are possible if you want to put the whole game on HDD permanently (doesn't require developer to do anything)

That would all be a good total solution. I've asked yosp again though, about the option to full-install

 

[NemesisPrime]

Phew *wipes brow*



http://www.gamepur.com/news/12566-n...ames-not-install-voice-commands-without-.html

This is the same as installing dude.

 

[mrklaw]

can we just bloody wait and see? This is getting silly now, with the only evidence being a comment from Cerny and several (often contradictory) tweets from Yoshida.

at this point we're basically arguing over the semantics of what a cache is and we aren't going to get anywhere without a definite step-by-step guide to how it works by someone from Sony or a dev.

 

[BigDug13]

They got you covered as well.

Ok good. My fears are alleviated. The fact that games like Diablo 3 sound like whistles blowing over and over on my PS3 as it's constantly accessing the blu-ray for loading with zero option for me to install it to the HDD pisses me off.

One of the best updates for 360 throughout this entire gen was adding the option to fully install every game.

 

[viveks86]

OK, thanks.

If you're correct about tweet number 3 really referring to getting rid of the disc, then it sounds like basically all bases are covered.

- No mandatory installs, devs must defer to auto caching
- Optional partial installs for improved performance are allowed though (if the dev wants to provide that option)
- Optional full installs are possible if you want to put the whole game on HDD permanently (doesn't require developer to do anything)

That would all be a good total solution. I've asked yosp again though, about the option to full-install

Exactly. And no harm in asking again. Multiple confirmations are always better. Just make sure you have triple checked your question. You won't get a response if the question itself is open to interpretations.

 

[-PXG-]

For the sake of example, lets just say every game is 50 GB.

Now, does this mean, instead of each game taking 50 GB of space ( ie. 3 games being 150 GB total), all I need is at least 50GB on my HDD for all of my games? So once I play a new game, the cache is cleared and the new game is put in the old game's place?

Is that it?