That's true, thanks. I really hope it will install the full game, the Ps3 disk noise (not the constant, quiet noise, I mean the position-finding of the laser, that "klack"-noise) was the most annoying thing for me. Having 300gb free space on the HDD but not being able to install Beyond really hurt.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
New PS4 Details: Automatic Caching Games Not Install
- Thread starter GribbleGrunger
- Start date
That's true, thanks. I really hope it will install the full game, the Ps3 disk noise (not the constant, quiet noise, I mean the position-finding of the laser, that "klack"-noise) was the most annoying thing for me. Having 300gb free space on the HDD but not being able to install Beyond really hurt.
There is no limit of writing that would affect the HDD lifespan, or at least I never heard of it. Now there is if you are using a SSD.
Pretty much lol.
I wouldn't recommend a SSD drive for the PS4.
I want at least optional installs. I play quite different games from my kids. I don't want the cache constantly flushed, because that means the bluray drive will be spinning at full speed every time I play a game to load it into memory, plus waiting a few minutes at the start before it has buffered enough.
I want to at least have the choice to put something I'm currently playing on the HDD and leave it there for a while
edit:
this is what I think is most likely. Yoshida just looking to not make it sound like you have to install 50GB before you can play, it does it in the background. Hope so anyway
automatic caching would be fine as long as it supports multiple titles. Like a FIFO queue with the oldest data being removed if you run out of HDD space. But that would only work if it doesn't stop you downloading digital games from PSN.
eg, fresh PS4 - 500GB free
download a bunch of movies that take up 200GB, so now I have 300GB free
buy resogun from PSN - takes up 50GB (just example numbers to make the example simpler)
buy octodad from PSN - takes up 50GB
now have 200GB free
play killzone from disc- caches 50GB
play COD from disc- caches 50GB
play knack from disc- caches 50GB
play BF4 from disc - caches 50GB
now have 0GB free
buy driveclub from PSN - needs 50GB to install so it deletes the killzone cached data automatically.
This would work kind of like Tivo suggestions - it can use all available free space for it to record suggested shows, but they never get in the way of shows you specifically want to record - it just deletes them to make space as needed.
but it sounds like we need more clarification
I want to at least have the choice to put something I'm currently playing on the HDD and leave it there for a while
edit:
this is what I think is most likely. Yoshida just looking to not make it sound like you have to install 50GB before you can play, it does it in the background. Hope so anyway
automatic caching would be fine as long as it supports multiple titles. Like a FIFO queue with the oldest data being removed if you run out of HDD space. But that would only work if it doesn't stop you downloading digital games from PSN.
eg, fresh PS4 - 500GB free
download a bunch of movies that take up 200GB, so now I have 300GB free
buy resogun from PSN - takes up 50GB (just example numbers to make the example simpler)
buy octodad from PSN - takes up 50GB
now have 200GB free
play killzone from disc- caches 50GB
play COD from disc- caches 50GB
play knack from disc- caches 50GB
play BF4 from disc - caches 50GB
now have 0GB free
buy driveclub from PSN - needs 50GB to install so it deletes the killzone cached data automatically.
This would work kind of like Tivo suggestions - it can use all available free space for it to record suggested shows, but they never get in the way of shows you specifically want to record - it just deletes them to make space as needed.
but it sounds like we need more clarification
maabus1999
Member
With in a couple years, many Internet connections will be almost as fast, if not as fast as physical disc transfer speeds....
Hell, Comcast is testing a 1 Tbps fiber connection right now...
That said, not sure how much I like the caching idea; lots of disc spinning and read/writing going on here. Plus depending on where you leave off the game, it has to dynamically download different sections of the game. Have to see how it works out.
Still huge confusion on this. I'm putting my money on the angle where.. If you play Killzone for say 2hrs, you will have 39gb on your HDD in cache or whatever they want to call it. Not a traditional install like digital download. I think that's where the mix up in words is coming from. This data will not just delete itself. BRD is not fast enough for next gen game streaming. At least that's what I'm going with.
Higher HDD utilization during the first 3 months of operation usually corresponds to drastically higher failure rates.
If you're interested, there is a research study on Google about it.
maabus1999
Member
Eh????
That is an option I would not want removed....
Why would they remove the option of full HDD installs from physical media?
This basically makes the game and hard disk constantly writing!!! Unnecessary wear and tear...
It may work like TiVo Suggestions and the system would automatically "de-cache" older disc based game data that hasn't been played in a while in favor of using that space for a new disc being inserted.
Or, the system might simply prompt you to say there isn't enough hdd space available to cache the game when you first insert a new game if your drive is full, letting you remove an older title's cached data.
We just don't know yet. Sounds like something worth demonstrating in a video.... SONY!
Zombie James
Banned
Hope they give the option to do a full install and keep it there. Installing a full 50GB game only to have it wiped out when I switch to a different game (where it would again cache the whole thing) makes me paranoid about hard drive longevity and wear and tear.
The cache will be wiped when it is needed. There will likely be a reserved section of your HDD for games to cache to whilst you're playing them, but as you start playing new games, it'll start automatically removing the older data in there to make room.
We are, too.
yeah, just edited to suggest the same thing. But if it does, I would like a way to mark some games as 'do not delete' - an old game may be my most played.
The console will probably reserve 10% of the disc the same way the PS3 did. That was also for cache (more precisely, swap) purposes.
If so it means those 500GB PS4s will end up with just over 400GB free space, allowing for the GiB/GB thing. I predict bitching on launch day.
Well, if a game is your most played, then it wouldn't get deleted because it would have been accessed recently.
Also, in my example, digital download titles would never automatically be deleted. Only caches of disc based games that haven't been accessed in a while and only when the HDD gets full.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
It does install the game but not permanently ... it's called CACHING.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Exactly. It's not an install you do before you can play, it's data caching that happens as you play. That's all he's trying to get across, but people are reading a bunch of other things into that as well for no reason.
Yep, although going by least recently used would probably be better. With a FIFO queue the system might delete the cache for a game you play all the time, just because that was the first one you played on the system. With LRU the games you play the most are more likely to stay cached. But that's a minor detail compared to the massive confusion in this thread.
And that's exactly the reason Cerny gave for doing this. Reading from a BD is too slow for this new generation of games, and that's why they get cached so that future reads can be much faster.
maabus1999
Member
I understand that. Do you? Caching of this size has implications...
ah, so not deleted based on install date, based on played date? Like how PS3 auto updates the last ten (?) games played but not older ones. That'd work well I think.
maabus1999
Member
according to that yosh tweet, you can not do full installs on physical...stupid decision.
Yeah just saw, wtf. That is a major bummer.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Again, this is not what he's saying. He's saying that you don't need to sit though an install before you can start playing. Instead, this will happen through a caching process as you play the game. So no, you can't manually install the full game before playing, because there's no need for it. It will happen automatically as you play. As Cerny described it, any data that is read from the BD is put on the HDD the first time it's accessed, so after a while the entire game will be cached and no longer has to be read from the disc. The end result is the same, there's just no "install" per se.
We actually don't know exactly what he means, so hopefully they can release a full explanation in more than 140 characters at a time
Gamasutra interview with Mark Cerny:
At the New York City unveiling of the system, Cerny talked about PlayGo, the system by which the console will download digital titles even as they're being played.
"The concept is you download just a portion of the overall data and start your play session, and you continue your play session as the rest downloads in the background," he explained to Gamasutra.
However, PlayGo "is two separate linked systems," Cerny said. The other is to do with the Blu-ray drive -- to help with the fact that it is, essentially, a bit slow for next-gen games.
“So, what we do as the game accesses the Blu-ray disc, is we take any data that was accessed and we put it on the hard drive. And if then if there is idle time, we go ahead and copy the remaining data to the hard drive. And what that means is after an hour or two, the game is on the hard drive, and you have access, you have dramatically quicker loading… And you have the ability to do some truly high-speed streaming.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=3
So.... the whole game [or just parts] will be cashed to the HDD while you are playing the game. With them callig it "cache" and not "install", that probably means that PS4 will automatically delete old data when it needs more free space.
At the New York City unveiling of the system, Cerny talked about PlayGo, the system by which the console will download digital titles even as they're being played.
"The concept is you download just a portion of the overall data and start your play session, and you continue your play session as the rest downloads in the background," he explained to Gamasutra.
However, PlayGo "is two separate linked systems," Cerny said. The other is to do with the Blu-ray drive -- to help with the fact that it is, essentially, a bit slow for next-gen games.
“So, what we do as the game accesses the Blu-ray disc, is we take any data that was accessed and we put it on the hard drive. And if then if there is idle time, we go ahead and copy the remaining data to the hard drive. And what that means is after an hour or two, the game is on the hard drive, and you have access, you have dramatically quicker loading… And you have the ability to do some truly high-speed streaming.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=3
So.... the whole game [or just parts] will be cashed to the HDD while you are playing the game. With them callig it "cache" and not "install", that probably means that PS4 will automatically delete old data when it needs more free space.
CadetMahoney
Member
afaik yes.
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
He did not say cahed data is deleted after playing other games. We do not know how they handle cached data. So there is no implications.
It just sounds the same as the PS3 system. You see how Uncharted 3 for instance is constantly using the HDD even though it doesn't have an install? It's using the cache. That cache is essentially hidden to the user but it's the reason the PS3 OS immediately reserves 10% of the disc when you install a new HDD. My impression is PS4 operates in the same way.
PodcastFips
Member
Awesome news!
Ok this makes sense, it's basically the same thing. What I'm curious about is if you have to be "in game" during the idle time for it to install in the background or if will do it when you are doing other tasks but still have the game disc in the drive.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
It's probably just when you're in-game, but that's a good idea. It should be able to do this in the background if you're doing other stuff on the console.
Thanks for reposting this for a new page.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Why? Why does anyone but the devs care about the utilization of the disc? If they only need to cache (install) 30GB of 50GB, then that is what they need. Why waste space and install 50GB?
MS has a full dump because of their original DRM solution. What they are now lacking, unless they change, is the flexibility to use the BRD for more bandwidth, much like GTA5 used it after the install. Both companies require the disc in the tray, so nothing changes there.
Gamespawn
Member
I think he said that as soon as the disk is inserted, the system automatically starts the caching process.
Edit: That would infer that you don't have to be in the game for the cache to take place. You could be browsing the net or the store and the disk would automatically be caching to your hard drive.
Portugeezer
Gold Member
No, you can do that on the 360, nothing to do with Xbone DRM.
People want less moving parts as possible. People had problems with disc trays since console started to use fucking discs. GTA5 example is an anomaly and would still be possibly by developer choice.
One time install with the disc being used just for authentication is the best option and it should be an option.
Calm the jesus fuck down.
Found it, is good info but is still inconclusive.
Do we have any metric of how many bytes per second is needed from the HDD to play 1080p games? (an average number would do).
JonathanPower
Member
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
Yep, that's pretty much what it is.
Less blu-ray drive use = better. I don't want another PS3 situation where it'll break in a few years.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Couldn't keep the essential data always installed and the less essential data reinstalls as you play the game again and if it's been flushed from cache?
IHaveCandy
Banned
I don't think you have to worry about blu ray drives dying anymore.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
So Cerny is lying or Yoshida knows the hardware better than him. Cool.
Or it's just a case of unclear messaging on Yoshida's part and people are getting confused.
Even though I understand how and why it works the way it does, I personally would like he option to still install the game disc before I play it than way it's done and over with. There really should be no reason why it could not work both ways.
The system will reserve the space from day 1. If the space is full, the oldest stuff gets deleted. That's how a cache works. It's almost certainly going to be invisible to the user.