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[Cerebral Assassin]

I dunno, I just figure if you care about Japanese sales, you'd have read that thread, and if you don't, why would you care now?

I don't particularly care about Japanese sales in general, but am interested in NMH(or SUDA in general), I didn't know about the empty lines for the signing and I'm pretty sure if we had of brought our "western" ad strategy(or lack of) discussion into an MC thread I'm pretty sure we woukd have been asked to leave.

 

[TunaLover]

Does anyone know what kind of sales Suda had in mind for NMH?

Million seller, I post it like 10 post early

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Ok, I want to be completely honest here and just be real. Did anyone truely think that this was going to be a AAA title for the Wii? I am serious, the way some of you guys talk about No More Heroes and Zak and Wiki are like they are the Holy Grail or something like that.

I don't think anyone familiar with Suda/Grasshopper expected a "AAA title" - they expected a low-budget, stylish, edgy, fun but likely flawed game.

They might be fun for some people, but the vast majority of people who have the Wii just use it to play Galaxy and Wii Sports.

So what? The vast majority of 360 owners aren't going to be playing the niche games that come out for it either - it doesn't make it any less heartening that they still come out and are still enjoyable.

 

[Meesh]

Ok, I want to be completely honest here and just be real. Did anyone truely think that this was going to be a AAA title for the Wii? I am serious, the way some of you guys talk about No More Heroes and Zak and Wiki are like they are the Holy Grail or something like that. They might be fun for some people, but the vast majority of people who have the Wii just use it to play Galaxy and Wii Sports.

All right, in all honesty I thought NMH would have gained more recognition than Killer7, I figured there was more hype surrounding it...appareantly not in Japan though...

 

[Stormbringer]

From the Media Create thread, regarding how Grasshopper fund their games :

1) Fairly low budget, virtually no paid advertising,
2) Michigan, Killer7, and Contact all got overseas publication deals that did alright for him even if not for the publishers.
3) Grasshopper developed a few for-profit titles to help fund Suda's money-losers. Shining Soul for GBA was developed by Grasshopper for SEGA.
4) Grasshopper also does sound design and music for other companies; mostly shovelware, Simple2000 stuff, etc.

GamerWiki has Grasshopper as founded with only 10million yen capital, which is about 100k dollars. So obviously there's been investment since then or the combination of the four previously mentioned factors have been enough to keep the company going. He's got 40 employees or something working for him (GamerWiki says 30 but that's outdated.)

Unlike the movie industry, video game publishers don't fund loss leaders for critical acclaim--which, by the way, Suda doesn't get a lot of from the vast majority of media. They fund loss leaders for research, but Grasshopper as such shoddy programmers that I highly doubt there's most salvageable tech from any of Suda's stuff.

Extremely low budgets. He did a talk at a conference in Australia that I covered (and I spoke to him at the conference and at a cafe, translated by Tetsuya Mizuguchi!). Right from the start the games have been made on shoestrings, he spoke about creating a 'window' system for his early adventure games so visuals would be lower res and save money. Killer 7 was magnificent use of an extremely small budget and limited tech, but most of his other games are pretty 'b-grade' - as in they look like budget titles.

__________________

Does anyone know what kind of sales Suda had in mind for NMH?

Well, IIRC he once said that he hoped the game would sell 1M. copies, so he could fund an actual anime based on NMH's main character favorite (fictional) anime... But I'm pretty sure that he was talking big (as this wouldn't be the first time), and that his actual expectations were more measured.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

All right, in all honesty I thought NMH would have gained more recognition than Killer7, I figured there was more hype surrounding it...appareantly not in Japan though...

Well, it does look like it's going to do better than Killer7, even if only marginally so.

Grasshopper's other sales, for reference:

Flower, Sun, and Rain: 5.9K first week and disappeared.
Michigan: 15.2K first week and disappeared.
Killer 7 GCN: 4.5K first week and disappeared; didn't reach the 15.2K necessary to make the yearly Top 500.
Killer 7 PS2: 13.7 first week, 28.6K last we saw it in the 2005 yearly Top 500.
Contact: 6.1K first week and disappeared; didn't reach the 17.2K necessary to make the yearly Top 500.

NMH did 10k on the first day. It seems incredibly likely it will surpass the first week sales of all of their previous titles.

 

[Amir0x]

Why wouldn't I be annoyed by it.

I don't know, people mock my opinions/impressions from time to time and it doesn't annoy me really. Like I said, even I was startled at the amount of flaws you pointed out in a game so "awesome" so that's where the mocking and teasing came from. Didn't honestly think it'd elicit a big response like that. My bad.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

Hey Segata, could you link me to the MC thread? I'd love to check it out.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Hey Segata, could you link me to the MC thread? I'd love to check it out.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214253
Last four pages or so have some discussion about NMH's first-day numbers.

 

[dirtmonkey37]

Do you think so?

The guy Travis Touchdown is a videogame geek who is into MOE. He goes on to kill all his Heroes or some shit, which includes all sorts of obscure geekery.

I'm not sure it's made for any other country but Japan, unless the only thing that classifies it as "Western" is "VIOLENCE."

From what I've seen of the game (seen, not played), this seems true.

 

[Visualante]

The Kojima name brings a dedicated fanbase they say..

 

[sprsk]

The story of the game isn't travis touchdown the otaku going to kill his heroes.

He gets drunk in a bar and a woman solicits him to join this assassin association where he can kill people for prizes. He joins and kills his way to the top. His motivation, however, is just to get to be number one so he can have sex with the girl. I am of course leaving A LOT out, there's a lot of stuff that happens during your journey from 11th place to the very end of the game.

There are allusions to otaku culture, but I don't think you can say that this game is meant for one specific region. Especially considering that there is probably twice as many Mexican Wrestling references than Otaku references.

 

[Amir0x]

The story of the game isn't travis touchdown the otaku going to kill his heroes.

He gets drunk in a bar and a woman solicits him to join this assassin association where he can kill people for prizes. He joins and kills his way to the top. His motivation, however, is just to get to be number one so he can have sex with the girl. I am of course leaving A LOT out, there's a lot of stuff that happens during your journey from 11th place to the very end of the game.

There are allusions to otaku culture, but I don't think you can say that this game is meant for one specific region.

Isn't the enemies he encounters various manifestations of his geek/otaku love? Did I misinterpret that? I think I read that from somewhere.

 

[EDarkness]

It's sad that no one went to hang out with Suda 51 and I think that says more about his image in Japan than anything else. Or it could have just been no real advertising. What's really sad is that the game had some advertising in Famitsu and I even saw some fliers for the game at my local game store. I picked one up as a souvenir. Heh, heh. Either way, I think the game will do much better in the States. If I had a Japanese Wii, I would have picked up the Japanese version to support the game, but I'll definitely be buying the U.S. version day one.

Still, the game is selling better than his other games, so perhaps this is a good sign. No idea why Kotaku is all doom and gloom when everyone should know that Suda 51 doesn't have a track record for making million sellers...especially in Japan.

 

[mcgarrett]

wacky jappy

I'm pretty sure that people have been banned as racists for far less than this. Phew, good thing there's no double standard here!

 

[Arde5643]

I'm pretty sure that people have been banned as racists for far less than this. Phew, good thing there's no double standard here!

I think amir0x is the only one using that. :lol

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

I'm pretty sure that people have been banned as racists for far less than this. Phew, good thing there's no double standard here!

So you thought you say the same? (I mean it was a few pages ago, no-one else complained and do people really get banned for abbrieviating Japanese to jap? does that mean I'll get banned for calling a yank a yank?)

 

[Cosmonaut X]

So you thought you say the same? (I mean it was a few pages ago, no-one else complained and do people really get banned for abbrieviating Japanese to jap? does that mean I'll get banned for calling a yank a yank?)

Yes.

 

[Threi]

So you thought you say the same? (I mean it was a few pages ago, no-one else complained and do people really get banned for abbrieviating Japanese to jap? does that mean I'll get banned for calling a yank a yank?)

Yes.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

yes

Gaf is a strange place

 

[Defuser]

I think amir0x is the only one using that. :lol

There plenty of gaffers I seen around using the word 'jap' and they don't even know it's racist.

 

[tetsuoxb]

I wouldn't be surprised if 200k sales globally would have NMH turning a profit.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

There plenty of gaffers I seen around using the word 'jap' and they don't even know it's racist.

Explain? I don't get how an abbrieviation is racist.

I wouldn't be surprised if 200k sales globally would have NMH turning a profit.

Cool that should be do-able if Killer 7 did about 300k(although that was multi-platform I suppose)

 

[pilonv1]

Especially considering that there is probably twice as many Mexican Wrestling references than Otaku references.

Any examples? I am now more interested in this game.

 

[Defuser]

Explain? I don't get how an abbrieviation is racist.




Cool that should be do-able if Killer 7 did about 300k(although that was multi-platform I suppose)

Wiki!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

 

[LukeSmith]

No you missed the other page, sp0rsk got angry at me mocking his impressions. That was the "clash." He thought I was being assholish, I was just teasing, but it's done now. I won't mock his impressions anymore

Has the torch been passed though? Will another carry this cross you bore?

 

[KTallguy]

Explain? I don't get how an abbrieviation is racist.

Jap(s) is a racial slur that was used during World War 2 to refer to the Japanese.

It's better to abbreviate with JP or something like that.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Wiki am wrong(in regards to the UK anyway If people want to be offensive about Japanese people here its the "n-word" or They hit the facial features line) cool at least I know not to abbriviate anymore.

 

[RiskyChris]

A Suda51 game bombing? Shocking.

Why couldn't I spoil the fun. =(

Still in for 100 copies on day 1.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Wiki am wrong(in regards to the UK anyway If people want to be offensive about Japanese people here its the "n-word" or They hit the facial features line) cool at least I know not to abbriviate anymore.

(Not sure how much of this is on the Wiki and I'm so lazy I can't be arsed to click it)
It derives from US military slang from WWII. I remember seeing covers of DC comics (which were heavily involved in driving War Bonds at the time) with caricatures of Japanese with the caption, "Slap a J*p, buy War Bonds today!" with Batman and Superman throwing baseballs at them and such. Since its root is regional, I'm not all that surprised to find out it's not exactly seen as such in the EU.

 

[Mamesj]

I'd love to see a good advertising campaign for Senko No Ronde because I don't believe one exists.

It's a 2D shooter/fighter with XBLA-quality graphics and this:

as the posterboy(girl?)

Ubisoft playing it straight was probably the best they could have done. Plastering anime-jailbait-traps all over magazine ads isn't the kind of thing I'm in support of.

their only hope for the game was catering to people who are into most things anime-related and people who are into a different kind of fighting game with fun gameplay (if you give it a few runs to learn the ins and outs.)

Since game companies choose to frame their audiences one-dimensionally and games are not advertised based on their depth for the most part, their only hope was to cater to the former.

Were generic mechs and the Westernized-name the best shot they could've given it? hell no. The cover should've been a collage of the characters in the game (prominently featuring the women and bad asses, of course, with the more inert characters in the background), add in some mechs blowing up with lasers and missiles and shit flying all over the place, make the main name sound less like a generic military/sci-fi name, throw in some Japanese characters under the words "Senko no Ronde," and slap a $30 price tag on it. Maybe a slip cover covered with flashy anime-style art would've worked too. That was the correct answer.

Not all games need to be shot right at Joe Bestbuy to do well. No More Heroes, like Killer 7 before it, is one of those. Like I said earlier though, they don't have the slam-dunk anime angle to work with though, so it'll require creativity....and I'm not about to believe Ubisoft will invest much in it. At least, not until I see it.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Since its root is regional, I'm not all that surprised to find out it's not exactly seen as such in the EU.

Well, in my part of the UK, "J*p" would probably be looked on as slightly offensive but would be tolerated (to be honest, most mild racial slurs are tolerated here... :-( )

 

[vertopci]

Hope this doesn't stop Suda from making these type of games

 

[Amir0x]

I'm pretty sure that people have been banned as racists for far less than this. Phew, good thing there's no double standard here!

"Jappy" is not "Jap". "WackyJappy" is merely used because "Jappy" rhymes with "wacky" and it has a nice ring to it (in reference to uses when describing insane Japanese concepts) it's genuinely as simple as that, not because it was ever in any way used to promote hatred (unless hatred here is defined by 'hating stupid gaming shit') Merely because it sounds similar is not enough to ban a word. In short: Quit trying to be so politically correct.

 

[D-X]

I WANT to buy this game 1st day. I WAS buying 1st day. Now it's censored I have to jump through fucking hoops to get and play an import copy. All I wanted do was support Suda but thanks to the EU publisher I wont be. They really shot themselves in the foot with this one - alienating the Killer 7 fans.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

their only hope for the game was catering to people who are into most things anime-related and people who are into a different kind of fighting game with fun gameplay (if you give it a few runs to learn the ins and outs.)

Since game companies choose to frame their audiences one-dimensionally and games are not advertised based on their depth for the most part, their only hope was to cater to the former.

Were generic mechs and the Westernized-name the best shot they could've given it? hell no. The cover should've been a collage of the characters in the game (prominently featuring the women and bad asses, of course, with the more inert characters in the background), add in some mechs blowing up with lasers and missiles and shit flying all over the place, make the main name sound less like a generic military/sci-fi name, throw in some Japanese characters under the words "Senko no Ronde," and slap a $30 price tag on it. Maybe a slip cover covered with flashy anime-style art would've worked too. That was the correct answer.

The characters in the game look just as generic as any anime. We're sort of past the whole "Hey look! Anime! I'm buying this!" phase so throwing up a bunch of random characters wouldn't drum up any interest. You could throw in some crazy mech action going on but then you look at the screenshots and see something out of the Dreamcast-era and you wonder where all of that action is.

Face it. The game was not marketed as such because Ubi-soft knew they wouldn't accomplish much in the casual market so they figured they'd get away with selling it at full-price with minimal ads. They knew the hardcore market would be all over it anyway.

But enough about that. It's time for Wrestling.

 

[sprsk]

"Jappy" is not "Jap". "WackyJappy" is merely used because "Jappy" rhymes with "wacky" and it has a nice ring to it (in reference to uses when describing insane Japanese concepts) it's genuinely as simple as that, not because it was ever in any way used to promote hatred (unless hatred here is defined by 'hating stupid gaming shit') Merely because it sounds similar is not enough to ban a word. In short: Quit trying to be so politically correct.

It's an idiotic word that has no purpose other than to denote something as being for "japanophiles". The word may not (although, really, it is) racist out right, but its a fucking stupid word no one outside of the lowest pits of the internet should be using.

 

[sprsk]

Isn't the enemies he encounters various manifestations of his geek/otaku love? Did I misinterpret that? I think I read that from somewhere.

I don't really see the characters as a manifestation of anything otaku related. If there is a relation, it's very loose.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Hope this doesn't stop Suda from making these type of games

I have a feeling nothing will stop Suda from making these type of games. Free spirit and so forth.

 

[JKBii]

Yea, I was thinking the best choice is to buy two copies of the game too, but I'm not gonna do it.

Also, to the two of you arguing, you might want to take that to PMs.

 

[Arde5643]

"Jappy" is not "Jap". "WackyJappy" is merely used because "Jappy" rhymes with "wacky" and it has a nice ring to it (in reference to uses when describing insane Japanese concepts) it's genuinely as simple as that, not because it was ever in any way used to promote hatred (unless hatred here is defined by 'hating stupid gaming shit') Merely because it sounds similar is not enough to ban a word. In short: Quit trying to be so politically correct.

Perhaps, but as it is, it's more of an issue with ignorance and the way you summarize it at the end with "Quit trying to be so politically correct" just shows more how you deal with that type of ignorance.

Well, sp0rsk seems to already be handling it, so I'll shut my piehole now. :lol

 

[Arde5643]

I have a feeling nothing will stop Suda from making these type of games. Free spirit and so forth.

Since most of his games have bombed so far and since he doesn't seem fazed at all with it, I'd say he'll continue making this type of games.

For once, I'd like to see the company get rewarded with good sales for this type of games.

 

[Mamesj]

As for Suda games "bombing," his shit doesn't need to sell like Halo 3 to be successful. Think about it.

The characters in the game look just as generic as any anime. We're sort of past the whole "Hey look! Anime! I'm buying this!" phase so throwing up a bunch of random characters wouldn't drum up any interest. You could throw in some crazy mech action going on but then you look at the screenshots and see something out of the Dreamcast-era and you wonder where all of that action is.

Face it. The game was not marketed as such because Ubi-soft knew they wouldn't accomplish much in the casual market so they figured they'd get away with selling it at full-price with minimal ads. They knew the hardcore market would be all over it anyway.

But enough about that. It's time for Wrestling.

what's this "we" stuff? what are you even referring to? :lol take a look at any boxed set for any anime DVD and tell me what anime fans are "past." A flashy design and budget price would've been better than the shit job they did bringing the game to the west.

Face it. Ubisoft got excited about the game to decide to port it at one point, then completely slept on it when time came to release it. It is possible for a marketing campaign to fail. Completely half-assing it and marketing it to no one is not a viable alternative to attempting to hit the crowd it should be aimed at.

 

[Bit-Bit]

"Jappy" is not "Jap". "WackyJappy" is merely used because "Jappy" rhymes with "wacky" and it has a nice ring to it (in reference to uses when describing insane Japanese concepts) it's genuinely as simple as that, not because it was ever in any way used to promote hatred (unless hatred here is defined by 'hating stupid gaming shit') Merely because it sounds similar is not enough to ban a word. In short: Quit trying to be so politically correct.

So it would be alright if I called a member on GAF a "crazy whitey"? Or an african american Blackey?

Your logic is stupid.

 

[sprsk]

So it would be alright if I called a member on GAF a "crazy whitey"? Or an african american Blackey?

Your logic is stupid.

That superman song sure is wacky blacky!

 

[Amir0x]

Perhaps, but as it is, it's more of an issue with ignorance and the way you summarize it at the end with "Quit trying to be so politically correct" just shows more how you deal with that type of ignorance.

Well, sp0rsk seems to already be handling it, so I'll shut my piehole now. :lol

Again, it's a matter of political correctness. Not everything is racist, or has racist connotations. Yes, sp0rsk is right, it's used "denote something for being japanophile", which again is not racist. HE hates it for obvious reasons, but it is not racist, nor has it ever been racist, nor will it ever be racist... and no amount of posturing or calling it "ignorance" will make it so. You may hate the reason it's being used (to reject outhand a number of Japanese gaming concepts), but you will not get the word banned.

So it would be alright if I called a member on GAF a "crazy whitey"? Or an african american Blackey?

Your logic is stupid.

It'd be analogous if you were trying to rhyme something with American or Western in order to dismiss a type of American or Western game design. Your alarmist interpretation suggests a complete misunderstanding of what is being said.

 

[Troidal]

It's been on the news for months now: Japan hates videogames.

 

[Arde5643]

It's been on the news for months now: Japan hates videogames.

It's actually more: Japan hates console videogames.

But yeah, this unfortunately has been accepted by most forumgoers since it seems even the Wii cannot save console videogaming from doomsday in Japan.

 

[sprsk]

I think the test here is if you would, in a setting with Japanese game fans, say a game is wacky jappy. In an interview with a Japanese developer, you would never ask him how he felt about making games that were "wackyjappy".

Really, the word is pretty offensive.

 

[Amir0x]

It's actually more: Japan hates console videogames.

But yeah, this unfortunately has been accepted by most forumgoers since it seems even the Wii cannot save console videogaming from doomsday in Japan.

I just think things like Wii Fit cost a bit too much for there to be an onslaught uprising like Brain Training or Nintendogs had. Casual gamers like the price of the handheld games, allows them to invest more freely.

I think the test here is if you would, in a setting with Japanese game fans, say a game is wacky jappy. In an interview with a Japanese developer, you would never ask him how he felt about making games that were "wackyjappy".

Really, the word is pretty offensive.

Well, would they be offended because they think it's disparaging to Japanese people, or because they think it's disparaging to part of their hobby or in the case of the developers to the games they make? There's the distinction. If it's offensive because of the second, then really who cares? The point of the phrase isn't to be conciliatory, in any event. It's really just a label applied for a specific type of game, not a specific type of person. Noted only because of the LAND it comes from, not the people it is made by.