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[Norua]

If we're going to talk about war crimes in World War 2, we could also talk about the Nanking Massacre. That pales in comparison to the 7.5 million Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese during WW2.

Not disputing that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a horrible thing, or that it was justified by what the Japanese did. I'm glad it wasn't my call back then. Choice between millions of lives dying in a conventional ground and air assault, or a horrible nuclear attack.

Clearly. I choose US examples because of the thread, but the Japanese government / army isn't innocent either, that's for sure.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I cannot even comperhend how Pakistanis could tolerate such a traitoruous regime for so long. Allowing CIA to slaughter your own people? GTFO.

They're bombarding the outskirts that practically no one cares about except for the people who live there. Sadly, it's a very rural city/region and everyone is illiterate or don't have the resources to show what they go through except for the media.

I hate this stance because the people who are aware of it mostly have the "Well! As long as they don't attack out big cities, I'm fine with it. We're safe so that's all that matters" stance. Then you have "internet activists" that have the typical "Every time you like this news, Facebook will donate $10" bullshit. Everyone thinks that linking a news article online will stop the atrocity. The online popularity has reduced the voice on ground. Yes, there are rallies and there are very smart people who voice their concern, but it's the same as Ron Paul screaming down his throat "I told you so". No one cares about Ron Paul and it's the same case down in Pakistan. I consider Imran Khan the Ron Paul of Pakistan as his goals and visions are great, but he is not the Prime Minister nor he is the President. His voice doesn't mean shit until he has that status.

Pakistan is very political in that sense and people get brainwashed easily due to the very liberated mob mentality. They follow the crowd without knowing where it's heading to, and the guy leading i.e. the Pied Piper himself is playing the wrong tune. One guy can start yelling "Allah O' Akbar" and all will follow without knowing whether they are praising the situation positively or negatively. It's a country with all the muscle but no brains. Educated people are all congested in half a dozen major cities, while the hundreds of others are hard-working labors who just want to put food on the plate for their family.

 

[ironichaos]

How would people in this thread suggest we fight Al Qaeda? Let them come to us and just hope they don't slip through the cracks? Please I'd like to hear your alternatives.

I'm going to copy what I posted in another thread since I think it answers your question.
We're not at war but instead dealing with organized crime. We don't go bombing New York, Chicago, etc. because Mafia resided there. Likewise, we have no right to bomb a half dozen other countries and cities because there's a few criminals that live there. Come on guys, common sense would tell you that's a morally wrong thing to do.

The way to deal with criminals in other countries is how we've always done it, through diplomacy and collaborating with their local law enforcement. Pressure their government to prosecute their criminals. You rub my back and I rub yours. Instead, we've gone rogue, completely ignoring international laws, our country's values, and the laws of the countries we enter, killing their people, destroying their communities.

It's sad. If you can't feel remorse for all the families that have been killed by your tax dollars over the past decade...you really need to reevaluate your sense of empathy. It's time for you to put yourself in their shoes for once. Lose your leg, lose your mother, lose your house because someone behind a closed door thousands of miles away decided you maybe associated with someone who sounded kinda suspicious

 

[Messofanego]

Imran Khan has a better chance of winning, it's not like everyone in USA shutting Ron Paul down on every occasion from media to parties.

 

[Hindle]

I'm going to copy what I posted in another thread since I think it answers your question.
We're not at war but instead dealing with organized crime. We don't go bombing New York, Chicago, etc. because Mafia resided there. Likewise, we have no right to bomb a half dozen other countries and cities because there's a few criminals that live there. Come on guys, common sense would tell you that's a morally wrong thing to do.

The way to deal with criminals in other counties is how we've always done it, through diplomacy and collaborating with their local law enforcement. Pressure their government to prosecute their criminals. You rub my back and I rub yours. Instead, we've gone rogue, completely ignoring international laws, our country's values, and the laws of the countries we enter, killing their people, destroying their communities.

It's sad. If you can't feel remorse for all the families that have been killed by your tax dollars over the past decade...you really need to reevaluate your sense of empathy. It's time for you to put yourself in their shoes for once. Lose your leg, lose your mother, lose your house because someone behind a closed door thousands of miles away decided you maybe associated with someone who sounded kinda suspicious

Pakistan has no law, the government can't do anything because Pakistan has no real government. In fact the terrorists are used as a proxy by the so called Pakistani government, hence why they look the other way.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

Imran Khan has a better chance of winning, it's not like everyone in USA shutting Ron Paul down on every occasion from media to parties.

Imran Khan has no chance of winning, which places him in the same position as Ron Paul.

Nor does he deserve to. His rhetoric is the same as the rest (finish structural corruption in 90 days? lol), and his party's economic policy aims are just as ridiculous.

The truth is that even in the unlikely event that he managed to elbow his way into a position of power in the country, the army has the final say on drone strikes, not the Federal government.

 

[Hindle]

I'd say if Pakistan didn't have nukes, then there wouldn't be as much drone strikes, but because they do, you just can't take the risk that these militant groups will get thier hands on those nukes. Civilians dying is awful but not as bad as tens of millions of them.

 

[Mackenzie 92]

The collateral damage video?

The one where the person who exposed it is facing life in prison? Surprised this tweeter isn't in Guantanamo already.

Oh yeah, that was the one. I didn't know he was facing life in prison for exposing it, that's as disgusting as the actual video.

 

[Dyno]

I'd say if Pakistan didn't have nukes, then there wouldn't be as much drone strikes, but because they do, you just can't take the risk that these militant groups will get thier hands on those nukes. Civilians dying is awful but not as bad as tens of millions of them.

Your excuses are hilariously bad. Keep them coming!

 

[Hindle]

Your excuses are hilariously bad. Keep them coming!

Thanks for the contribution.

 

[Kad5]

This is exactly what Osama wanted. For us to get involved in a perpetual war on terror, drain our resources, and eventually overtime people get involved with radical, extreme islamist groups for revenge of the deaths of their families. And if all goes especially as planned then we will collapse as a superpower. Just like the Soviet Union.


This isn't a war that we can win. It's gonna go on forever at this point. This isn't like the battle with communism in the cold war where there is a superpower sponsor that can potentially collapse and then the "threat" is over. This is based on an ideology that is culturally and religiously linked. It's an ideology IN RESPONSE to Western Intervention. This isn't something you can "win" against. You might as well be wacking a beehive with a stick repeatedly.

 

[The Lamonster]

when you want someone REALLY dead...

 

[DurielBlack]

Yeah, these drone strikes are way the hell out of hand. Better to limit to surveillance and embarrass the Pakistani gov't with evidence of terrorists in their borders while they do nothing until they agree to kick them out.

Sure, it would take years of diplomatic wrangling, UN involvment, and lots of bullshit, but the end result would be better than creating a dozen new terrorists to kill yet another "2nd in command".

Our foreign policy is so fucked. It's like our politicians have never heard/played Civilization before. That should be a mandatory requirement before running for public office.

Yes, I kid.

 

[Klendathu Club Owner]

Disgusting. One an only hope that this will stop. And hopefully Obama and other U.S. presidents doing this (along with the other responsible people in the military) will end up in Den Haag. And stop giving the Nobel Peace Price to this scum :-(

 

[Pollux]

At the expense of thousands of civilians and the middle east continuing to hate us. Drones are short term gain because Obama doesn't want to deal with live prisoners/due process and Americans won't kick up a fuss because it isn't happening here or losing soldiers lives.

If we're serious about long term gain in fighting terror it's a horrible policy because it assumes the next generation of people are going to act like nothing wrong happened. As if kids in pakistan growing up now who see their parents die are not going to hate the US and want to join al quaida. A huge mountain of shit will be on the doorstep of the 2016/2020/2024 administrations because of what we're doing now.

Unless you planned to use drones indefinitely all over the world on everyone who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time regardless of how many innocent people are killed. If the US doesn't care about innocent deaths or time limits/discretion then why not just drop a nuke and kill everything in the middle east?

Dropping a nuke isn't good for long term profits.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

Why is the United States alway the bad guy? Since the birth of the nation-state, countries have been serving their own interests. Imperial Japan; Nazi Germany; Bolshevik Russia; the French in Vietnam; The Brits and the Falkland Islands; China, Japan, Taiwan and the Senkaku Islands; China and its policy towards Tiawanese, or its own domestic policy for that matter; Ehtiopia and Eritrea.

Some of these disputes have been bloody and the state has always felt any means is necessary to achieve their own goals. I would argue that the case is the same here, however civilian casulties are lower compared to other wars.

Let Eastern European genocide occur and everyone will be begging for the U.S. financed NATO to step in.

 

[Jackpot]

Let Eastern European genocide occur and everyone will be begging for the U.S. financed NATO to step in.

Yeah, genocide! That'll teach those no-good peaceniks to badmouth your precious US.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

Yeah, genocide! That'll teach those no-good peaceniks to badmouth your precious US.

I don't think you contribute to this debate at all.

You mock me but its true. The U.S. is the biggest financier of NATO and the UN. It helped put an end to Slobodan Milosevic. You think Albania could defend itself? I lived in Albania, and I don't think they have one working helicopter, but everyone loved when we bombed the hell out of Yugoslavia and Bosnia. Bill Clinton and Colin Powell could do no wrong.

 

[Verendus]

Reading about the drone strikes always infuriates me. Fucking dick of a president that is Obama, and the criminal who should be in prison that is Bush. All this kind of stuff proves is the hypocrisy of the world we live in and how pathetic the state of affairs is. This is exactly why the world, and society, has such a long way to go yet. If this was any other country, we'd never hear the end of the atrocity/tragedy/reprehensible situation etc.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

Reading about the drone strikes always infuriates me. Fucking dick of a president that is Obama, and the criminal who should be in prison that is Bush. All this kind of stuff proves is the hypocrisy of the world we live in and how pathetic the state of affairs is. This is exactly why the world, and society, has such a long way to go yet. If this was any other country, we'd never hear the end of the atrocity/tragedy/reprehensible situation etc.

What rock have you been hiding under? You think the U.S. is the only one? Your nieve.

 

[Jackpot]

I don't think you contribute to this debate at all.

You mock me but its true. The U.S. is the biggest financier of NATO and the UN. It helped put an end to Slobodan Milosevic. You think Albania could defend itself? I lived in Albania, and I don't think they have one working helicopter, but everyone loved when we bombed the hell out of Yugoslavia and Bosnia. Bill Clinton and Colin Powell could do no wrong.

I fail to see how any of this justifies the US bombing indiscriminately in Pakistan. Or makes what you posted less stupid.

 

[YoungHav]

The lack of empathy is stupid. My Italian college roomate's great uncle died and at the funeral were mob members. Should the funeral have been drone striked? He didn't know the deceased even had connections until the funeral.

So the CIA is a terrorist organization.

CIA = Spectres
The top 1% = The Council

What it boils down to is those in power have absolutely no respect for human life if it gets in the way of their objectives. The CIA is the most powerful gang in the world. Central Intelligence Agency sounds so much friendlier than Gangsters for the Elite. Drug trafficking, torture, gun running, murder, regime toppling, they are just a global gang w/no police force to stop them.

 

[Trick_GSF]

What rock have you been hiding under? You think the U.S. is the only one? Your nieve.

You're.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

You're.

Thank You

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

I fail to see how any of this justifies the US bombing indiscriminately in Pakistan. Or makes what you posted less stupid.

The U.S. will continue to serve its own interest and it is justified in doing so.

 

[Incitemaybe]

I posted this picture on my Facebook as I saw it to represent questioning authority and how the power is kept in the same hands no matter the face. I had an acquaintance comment that she thinks this photo is racist....is this well known? Or is she expressing her personal viewpoint?

 

[genjiZERO]

I posted this picture on my Facebook as I saw it to represent questioning authority and how the power is kept in the same hands no matter the face. I had an acquaintance comment that she thinks this photo is racist....is this well known? Or is she expressing her personal viewpoint?

It would require mental gymnastics to view this as racist. She's an idiot. Your point is valid.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The collateral damage video?

The one where the person who exposed it is facing life in prison? Surprised this tweeter isn't in Guantanamo already.

... This is obvious hyperbole. I'm not in favour of the US government's actions against Bradley Manning, nor do I think he deserves a life sentence, but it's farce to pretend that Manning can be found equivalent to a student tweeting news articles he finds about a subject. Manning was a US intelligence officer who used classified clearances to indiscriminately dump massive amounts of US intelligence onto the public. I think he has a credible claim, in terms of intent, to being a whistleblower, but again--look at your statement.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

... This is obvious hyperbole. I'm not in favour of the US government's actions against Bradley Manning, nor do I think he deserves a life sentence, but it's farce to pretend that Manning can be found equivalent to a student tweeting news articles he finds about a subject. Manning was a US intelligence officer who used classified clearances to indiscriminately dump massive amounts of US intelligence onto the public. I think he has a credible claim, in terms of intent, to being a whistleblower, but again--look at your statement.

I agree. I think Manning is being punished too severely.

 

[Mook1e]

I agree. I think Manning is being punished too severely.

I think Manning's treatment while in U.S. Military custody is a travesty and those responsible should be prosecuted, but I also think he should pay dearly for what he did.

 

[Kentpaul]

I keep hearing that the US are 'targeting civilians'. What do they have to gain by it, exactly? I dont get it.

There's bound to be a few bad guys among the innocent right ? That's the way of thinking in this war.

 

[OG Kush]

I cannot even comperhend how Pakistanis could tolerate such a traitoruous regime for so long. Allowing CIA to slaughter your own people? GTFO.

lol like we pakistanis tolerate this. its the government being dickheads, not actual pakistanis.

 

[ErasureAcer]

And now we know why the US Govt. doesn't care about school shootings.

 

[Kinyou]

Where did I say it did?

Well I thought your post had something to do with the topic.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

And now we know why the US Govt. doesn't care about school shootings.

Yeah. Not to politicize but I wonder how many tears Obama shed for the children he drone struck.

 

[tafer]

Yeah. Not to politicize but I wonder how many tears Obama shed for the children he drone struck.

It would be interesting if someone with the knowledge would come with the numbers of innocent deaths caused by this war on terror and by the different terrorists organizations that are been targeted.

 

[Blake'sGrave]

Really thought Obama would've CHANGEd this by now.

 

[params7]

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-drone-tweets-reveal-double-tap-plan-2012-12

USA Government : "To kill 1 bad person, it is justified to kill 50 innocents to get to him"


So USA, what happens when the relatives of the innocent dead grow up?


http://discussingdissociation.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/multiplicity2.jpg


That said, I'm with the first poster. Despite being nuclear armed Pakistan has shown some serious lack of balls by allowing this shit to happen.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I'd say if Pakistan didn't have nukes, then there wouldn't be as much drone strikes, but because they do, you just can't take the risk that these militant groups will get thier hands on those nukes. Civilians dying is awful but not as bad as tens of millions of them.

You're a moron if you think drone strikes have anything to do with "terrorists getting their hands on those nukes". You're a moron if you think thats even a real possibility.

 

[awm8604]

Yeah. Not to politicize but I wonder how many tears Obama shed for the children he drone struck.

Good question.

The drone strike murders, with thousands of adults and hundreds of children killed, deserve to be talked about as much as any of the recent shootings imo.

 

[YoungHav]

the selective empathy is sickening. Innocent middle eastern kids apparently don't count, and everyone is back to fellating Obama because of 1 speech while staying ignorant to his droning.

 

[Tokubetsu]

Was this article linked? Someone just linked this on my twitter feed. Scary read:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...er-war-for-american-drone-pilot-a-872726.html

 

[Clay Davis]

Was this article linked? Someone just linked this on my twitter feed. Scary read:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...er-war-for-american-drone-pilot-a-872726.html

With seven seconds left to go, there was no one to be seen on the ground. Bryant could still have diverted the missile at that point. Then it was down to three seconds. Bryant felt as if he had to count each individual pixel on the monitor. Suddenly a child walked around the corner, he says.

Second zero was the moment in which Bryant's digital world collided with the real one in a village between Baghlan and Mazar-e-Sharif.

Bryant saw a flash on the screen: the explosion. Parts of the building collapsed. The child had disappeared. Bryant had a sick feeling in his stomach.

"Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.

"Yeah, I guess that was a kid," the pilot replied.

"Was that a kid?" they wrote into a chat window on the monitor.

Then, someone they didn't know answered, someone sitting in a military command center somewhere in the world who had observed their attack. "No. That was a dog," the person wrote.

They reviewed the scene on video. A dog on two legs?

wow. not sure what else to say. some of the stories are incredibly disheartening.

 

[tafer]

Was this article linked? Someone just linked this on my twitter feed. Scary read:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...er-war-for-american-drone-pilot-a-872726.html

Nothing a mountain of drugs won't fix, one way or another... and yeah, sometimes it's easy to forget that this horrible crimes have victims on both sides.

 

[Dead Man]

Was this article linked? Someone just linked this on my twitter feed. Scary read:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...er-war-for-american-drone-pilot-a-872726.html

Yeah, can't imagine how that must feel.

 

[Zapages]

Things are going to get a bit interesting now that Pakistan is going to build and use their own drones (eventually)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324712504578133483559620340.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

KARACHI, Pakistan—This country's defense industry is building what companies hope will be a domestic fleet of aerial drones that can take over the U.S.'s role in attacking militant strongholds.

The U.S.'s persistent use of armed drones to kill militants in remote parts of Pakistan has created a public backlash that has damaged the relationship between the two nations.

American attempts to reduce the number of civilian casualties by tightening oversight of such strikes have done little to reduce popular opposition in Pakistan to the attacks nor mute Pakistani leaders' routine protests.

Enlarge Image
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Dion Nissenbaum/The Wall Street Journal

A Pakistani company showed its medium-range drone, the Shahpar, at a Karachi arms expo recently. Locally made drones lag their U.S. counterparts.
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* Gunmen in Pakistan Kill 5 Polio Workers\

But Pakistan isn't altogether against drones. The nation's leaders want to have more control over where and how they are used, and are encouraging local drone makers to build up the country's budding arsenal.

"The future era is toward unmanned operations," said Sawd Rehman, deputy director of Rawalpindi, Pakistan-based Xpert Engineering, which builds aerial drones. "The policy of self-reliance is always priority No. 1 of every nation."

Mr. Rehman is part of a new wave of executives in the Pakistani defense industry who have studied American drone strikes with a mix of scorn and envy. He and other Pakistanis view U.S. drone attacks on militant sanctuaries as counterproductive because of the anti-American hostility they have fueled.

Instead, Xpert and a small number of other companies are working to develop the country's own fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles—a force they hope will one day supplant the American drones that dominate the country's border with Afghanistan.

"We have tried our best asking the United States to transfer this technology to us so we can fight our own war instead of somebody from abroad coming and doing it," said Maj. Gen. Tahir Ashraf Khan, director general of Pakistan's Defense Export Promotion Organization. "Those efforts did not meet with success, so we decided to venture into this field ourselves—and we have gone pretty far ahead."

Pakistan's military already uses a small but growing number of unarmed drones, some of them manufactured at home, to monitor the borders, coast and mountain ranges that serve as sanctuaries for some of the world's most wanted militant leaders, including the Taliban and its allied Haqqani Network.

U.S. officials agreed last year to sell Islamabad several dozen small, unarmed Raven model drones with limited short-range surveillance capabilities. American officials have steadfastly opposed Pakistani requests for the transfer of U.S. armed drone technology to Pakistan.

The Pentagon declined to comment on Pakistan's drone program or the reasons for not giving it U.S. technology.

Washington is resuming about $1 billion in military aid after freezing it when Pakistan blocked U.S. access to supply lines into Afghanistan. That followed an American border strike that killed 25 Pakistani troops in November 2011. The standoff ended over the summer with a U.S. apology.

Without advanced satellite technology, the Pakistanis are incapable of developing armed drones by themselves now. It will take years, if not decades, for Pakistan to develop a fleet of armed drones to rival America's Predator and Reaper models, many analysts and people in the industry say.

"We don't have the capability," said Muhammad Sulaiman, a sales manager for Global Industrial Defense Solutions, or GIDS, a consortium of Pakistani companies that sells drones, tanks and planes to the nation's military. "Maybe Pakistan will need another 50 years."

To expand its capabilities, Pakistan is looking for help from China, which has marketed its own version of armed drones to developing countries.

"Pakistan can also benefit from China in defense collaboration, offsetting the undeclared technological apartheid," Pakistan Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf said at a recent arms expo in Karachi, in apparent reference to U.S. reluctance to share its technology with Pakistan.

GIDS produces one of Pakistan's newest and most advanced drones, a medium-range vehicle called the Shahpar that can fly for about seven hours—a fraction of the 40 hours a Predator can spend in the sky.

To supplement its nascent drone industry, Pakistan has been working with Italy's Selex Galileo SpA to produce a medium-range Falco drone with limited capabilities that the Pakistani military has been using for surveillance since at least 2009, when the government staged operations against militants based in Swat Valley in northeastern Pakistan.

While Pakistan has looked to other countries to advance its drone capabilities, one Pakistani company said it has exported a small number of drones to a private company in the U.S.

Raja Sabri Khan, chief executive of Integrated Dynamics, a Karachi-based drone manufacturer, said he thought the U.S.'s use of armed drones has given the industry a bad name. He aims to help rehabilitate the perception of drones by promoting their peaceful uses, such as the ability to locate flood victims for rescue. "Drones can be used for saving lives, for security," he said. "I'm absolutely against drones for armed purposes."