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[Jamix012]

The excuses I hear about people saying that there has to be temporary saves otherwise people will "cheat" the system reminds me a lot about how people complain about how the cape in Super Mario World lets you "cheat" the game by allowing you to bypass the entire levels. Yes, you can do that, but if you do so, you'd wind up missing the point of platforming in a Mario game.

I see a more forgiving save system as something that helps ease frustration more than anything else.

What if the game allowed you to save at any point like you can in OoT? Would people still have a problem with that? By doing so, you wouldn't be able to theoretically cheat like you "might" with the owl set up.

In answer to your last question, yes of course that'd be a problem. Majora's Mask is a very different game that runs on a schedule and is less forgiving that OoT in ways other than it's save system.

In OoT loading a save can only ever send you back in terms of progress, you have nothing to gain from loading a previous save with the only exception being bottled items that are 99% of the time easily replenishable or unnecessary anyway. In Majora's Mask being able to load just before you took too long in a dungeon or failed to get the gold dust for the best sword in time makes the whole ordeal a lot less rewarding. You aren't overcoming a tough challenge, you're doing something that anyone can do simply by loading. Time management in general (one of my favourite aspects of MM) becomes a joke as well.

A more "forgiving" save system would make the game easier, less rewarding and less themeatic with the tone of the game.

 

[Ramenman]

I'm not sure why they chose to use the save system the way they did, all I know is that it's terrible and has legitimately screwed me over multiple times.

Seriously. I stopped playing the game after it just refused to save a dungeon I had completed. Too bad, it looked kinda original and all for a Zelda, I was really enjoying it.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I'm not trying to push my opinion onto people, though if I come off that way I'm sorry. It's just that I don't see why making the Owl Statue a permanent save would suddenly end the world. I mean they're scattered around quite unsparingly, so it's not like there's twelve of them every two steps.



The thing is though, if I want to save my game I need to quit. You know how annoying that is? I mean what If I've only played the Song of Time once, and I've gotten half way through Great Bay when suddenly my power goes out, am I suppose to just smirk it off because it's a quirky feature of the game? Or be pissed that this obtuse game wouldn't allow me to just save whilst also continue playing?

You make a good point. Though if my power went out, I'd be fucked anyway, as I don't save all that often.

I doubt you'll change anyone's mind though. I'm sorry you don't like the feature. If it was changed, then it would tarnish the experience for me.

 

[Rojo]

Actually, the entire game can be done in a single 3-day period, if I'm not mistaken.

That's impossible it takes a full cycle just to be normal again.

 

[Mr-Joker]

It's designed in a way to prevent cheating and basically disguise that the game is shorter than Ocarina of Time.

I would imagine that this will be a non issue for Majora's Mask 3D.

Owls are basically suspend saves.


The problem is that the game doesn't really tell you this (iirc), leading to confused players who thought it'd count as a proper save.

Actually the game does tell you this when you're saving at the owl statues, even tells when you before booting up the save file I am also sure that it's in the instruction manual.

 

[CJCW]

I'm that way too.

You have three hours to explore each new area to your heart's content and to get SOMETHING done.. So before entering a new dungeon, you know what I do? I save and reset the cycle. So I can explore to my heart's content.

I'm a save whore anyway so even fi the cycle weren't there I'd save before entering a new dungeon.

I really do wish I liked the game. I love Zelda, and MM has a big cult following in the community for a reason. It's probably the weirdest and boldest game in the series, and one that doesn't quite play like all the rest. That all sounds perfect for me, but every time I try to go back to it it feels like I need to force myself to play it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Seriously. I stopped playing the game after it just refused to save a dungeon I had completed. Too bad, it looked kinda original and all for a Zelda, I was really enjoying it.

Sounds like you didn't save.

After you complete the dungeon, play the song of time and return to dawn of the first day. Presto, your game is saved.

 

[Look! The Pie!]

God, I hated this save system. One of the many reasons I dislike Majora's Mask.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Seriously. I stopped playing the game after it just refused to save a dungeon I had completed. Too bad, it looked kinda original and all for a Zelda, I was really enjoying it.

wait, walk me through what happened here, exactly

you did use the Song of Time or an owl statue right

I have this mental image of you switching the console off after beating the boss and that seems unfair to you

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Majora's Mask tried to do something that almost no game has ever done, and I love it for that, the save mechanic being part of the experience.

The fact that you can screw up and have to restart(which doesn't happen often) is awesome, few games give me the sense of excitement that Majora's Mask gave me back when I played it for the first time.

I also know that's not the issue at hand, but I see people saying you don't get time to explore the world which I disagree with, there's SO much freaking time to do whatever you want in Majora's Mask if you use the Inverted Song of Time.

 

[Kyou]

wait, walk me through what happened here, exactly

you did use the Song of Time or an owl statue right

I have this mental image of you switching the console off after beating the boss and that seems unfair to you

I think they're just mad the boss doesn't stay dead? Which... why would you need it to?

 

[GaimeGuy]

I think they're just mad the boss doesn't stay dead? Which... why would you need it to?

Man I LOVE that aspect of it. I can go back and fight any boss I want at any time. In most games you have to start a new playthrough and play up to the point the boss is.

 

[Mango The Magician]

You do multiple dungeons in one go? That's asking for trouble.

I usually only get about two in before I have to restart, but yeah.

I still don't think you're improving the game. Majora's Mask is all about actions and consequences, and by allowing the player to save whenever they want you're just removing the consequences. I think it's a worse game as a result.

Obviously it will suit the kind of player who just wants to rush through the game and doesn't really give a shit about how the game is telling its story through its gameplay, but it's a MASSIVE loss to everyone who can appreciate it for what it's trying to achieve.

To each their own I guess, I just don't think theming and storytelling should take precedent over something as vital and necessary as the ability to save your game.

OoT's save system is complete ass, though. Why does it consistently kick me back to the Temple of Time whenever I'm not in a dungeon?

You know I think TP and WW has the same save system as OOT, but actually restart you wherever you saved, I might be remembering wrong though. Would that work for MM?

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Better saving is the number one thing I'm looking forward to in a potential remake of this.

And "better saving" is the one thing you can guarantee will not be massively changed.

Assuming they will change it to permanent saves assumes that it wasn't entirely on purpose that the only way to hard save was to play the song of time. Which is a massive assumption, given just how much of the game was reused from OoT assets, and that if it wasn't deliberate, it would have been one of the easiest things to carry over.

You know I think TP and WW has the same save system as OOT, but actually restart you wherever you saved, I might be remembering wrong though. Would that work for MM?

The last two zelda games (Skyward Sword and Link Between Worlds) have both relegated saving to a set of statues entirely. It's looking more and more unlikely that save anywhere is what they want to do with zelda.

 

[Hot Coldman]

You know I think TP and WW has the same save system as OOT, but actually restart you wherever you saved, I might be remembering wrong though. Would that work for MM?

Probably. Like I said, I don't mind the current system, but that definitely sounds more convenient and less obtuse.

I believe WW (and TP, and SS) all load your save at the location you saved at. So save in the Faron Woods, start at the Faron Woods, etc. Like a proper game!

 

[IdreamofHIME]

It was done by Nintendo so gamers could take a break from the game.

3 days in Termina is like an hour in real time right? But Nintendo recommends you take a 15 min break every 60mins? Impossible in Majora, so they hacked the owls so breaks for were possible.

It's really that simple.

 

[Syril]

And "better saving" is the one thing you can guarantee will not be massively changed.

Assuming they will change it to permanent saves assumes that it wasn't entirely on purpose that the only way to hard save was to play the song of time. Which is a massive assumption, given just how much of the game was reused from OoT assets, and that if it wasn't deliberate, it would have been one of the easiest things to carry over.

Look, even if it's just temporary saves anywhere instead of just at owl statues, it'll be good enough for me.

 

[GaimeGuy]

It was done by Nintendo so gamers could take a break from the game.

3 days in Termina is like an hour in real time right? But Nintendo recommends you take a 15 min break every 60mins? Impossible in Majora, so they hacked the owls so breaks for were possible.

It's really that simple.

Wrong.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Wrong.

Nope.
But thanks ^_^

 

[Stallion Dan]

To artificially stretch out the length of the game.

If you saved at an Owl then wasted time working out what to do you could just reload the Owl and do it quickly, instead if you waste time Nintendo makes you waste even more time by starting all three days again.

 

[Molemitts]

It was done by Nintendo so gamers could take a break from the game.

3 days in Termina is like an hour in real time right? But Nintendo recommends you take a 15 min break every 60mins? Impossible in Majora, so they hacked the owls so breaks for were possible.

It's really that simple.

You might wanna reread that. If 3 days is an hour you can take a 15 minute break. The game saves when you reset time. Nintendo only started recommending that recently though, I think.

To artificially stretch out the length of the game.

If you saved at an Owl then wasted time working out what to do you could just reload the Owl and do it quickly, instead if you waste time Nintendo makes you waste even more time by starting all three days again.

Um.. What?

 

[Jamix012]

I usually only get about two in before I have to restart, but yeah.



To each their own I guess, I just don't think theming and storytelling should take precedent over something as vital and necessary as the ability to save your game.



You know I think TP and WW has the same save system as OOT, but actually restart you wherever you saved, I might be remembering wrong though. Would that work for MM?

Still no. See my last post.

Have you played the new Rayman duology? I know parts of GAF love it but I found it unbearably dull. Why? Each platforming segment may be "challenging" but because there's basically no punishment for dying, retrying infinitely is possible without consequence and it bored me to tears.

On the other hand the Mega Man franchise is far, far better IMO. Simply because dying and failing means something. Overcoming obstacles is tense because you know if you fuck up, you lose a life, and game over means back to the beginning of the level. It's fair, but tough.

It's a difference of perspective for sure and I see why some prefer Rayman over Mega Man but I personally don't. I don't enjoy games where I feel what I did could've been done by anyone, I like overcoming challenges that have consequences for failing. Adding any sort of regular save system to Majora's Mask would ruin that and it's not just about the game's "themeing" but its challenge. It would be the same as adding save points every screen and removing lives from Mega Man.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

You might wanna reread that. If 3 days is an hour you can take a 15 minute break. The game saves when you reset time. Nintendo only started recommending that recently though, I think.

3 days is ~54 minutes if you don't use the song of inverted time. Nearly everyone playing MM will be using that, in which case it's almost 3 real hours, so an hourly break is unreasonable.

Look, even if it's just temporary saves anywhere instead of just at owl statues, it'll be good enough for me.

The last two zelda games didn't allow you to save anywhere, period. It was the statues or nothing. Expecting them to change a remake in the other direction is illogical at best.

 

[defghik]

Nope. Disagree. It's fair punishment for your failures if you screw up a bit and have to redo. In fact I'd argue the save system is part of the reason I consider the game to be so great.

Sure, but in reality, all it did was penalize players that didn't have a lot of free time. You're still "cheating" the system just as much by restarting the whole 3 day cycle, the difference is that you just have to waste more time doing the same thing over again.

 

[toythatkills]

Have you played the new Rayman duology? I know parts of GAF love it but I found it unbearably dull. Why? Each platforming segment may be "challenging" but because there's basically no punishment for dying, retrying infinitely is possible without consequence and it bored me to tears.

Rayman Origins has time trials, in which you need to complete each level from start to finish, quickly. No checkpoints. Maybe you'd like them?

 

[Molemitts]

3 days is ~54 minutes if you don't use the song of inverted time. Nearly everyone playing MM will be using that, in which case it's almost 3 real hours, so an hourly break is unreasonable.

In that case, yes. I seriously doubt it was for that reason though. It was most likely so that, resetting time remained the main way of saving, but owl statues are an alternative, so you don't have to start all over if you want to stop playing.

 

[Jamix012]

Rayman Origins has time trials, in which you need to complete each level from start to finish, quickly. No checkpoints. Maybe you'd like them?

I eventually beat Origins after a few months of on-and-off slogging through it and the time trials were more enjoyable than just playing the levels regularly for sure, but I mean, I had to play the levels regularly first which I found tedious and by the time I was done with them I didn't really feel like revisiting them.

Look, even if it's just temporary saves anywhere instead of just at owl statues, it'll be good enough for me.

This, on the other hand, would be fine. I see no reason to not have something like this.

 

[Gsnap]

The excuses I hear about people saying that there has to be temporary saves otherwise people will "cheat" the system reminds me a lot about how people complain about how the cape in Super Mario World lets you "cheat" the game by allowing you to bypass the entire levels. Yes, you can do that, but if you do so, you'd wind up missing the point of platforming in a Mario game.

I see a more forgiving save system as something that helps ease frustration more than anything else.

What if the game allowed you to save at any point like you can in OoT? Would people still have a problem with that? By doing so, you wouldn't be able to theoretically cheat like you "might" with the owl set up.

But the game is supposed to be frustrating to some point.

The entire game is about being stuck in a 3 day time loop. Frustration is one of the core emotions people would probably feel if they were in that situation. So yes, it is very important that people cannot us owl statues as permanent saves, because it is important that if a quest takes multiple days/events to complete, and they need to be completed in order, then the player shouldn't be allowed to redo one part until they get it and then move on to the next part, save, redo until you get it, next part, save, redo until you get it, etc. You gotta go through every day. That's the way it is. It's not a flaw. If you don't like it, fine, but the game actually does what it's supposed to do (puts the player in the characters shoes) and does it well.

All that said, when I was a kid, I didn't know that owl saves were temporary. Because I always saved at them anyway. Because saving the game is important, so I always did it.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[PogiJones]

Think of the Owl statues as closing your 3DS. It let's you get on with life if you need to, but when you open it back up, you pick up where you left off without it having actually saved anything. This way, it doesn't turn into a game-breaking quick-save feature like most emulators have. Quick-saves are fine if the game is balanced around it (e.g. HL2). But some games would be way too easy if you could save anytime, anywhere.

 

[M3d10n]

I think the problem is more that it's a quickly hacked together suspend save and thus confuses players by not presenting itself as proper suspend saves usually do.

First of all, it should be performed by a "suspend & quit" option in the pause menu, not by a checkpoint object placed in the world. Also (I don't remember if it actually did this), the standard practice for resuming a suspend save is by having a different option like "continue" or "resume" in addition to "load game", which warns the user the suspend save data will be deleted after loaded before continuing.

 

[toythatkills]

Think of the Owl statues as closing your 3DS. It let's you get on with life if you need to, but when you open it back up, you pick up where you left off without it having actually saved anything. This way, it doesn't turn into a game-breaking quick-save feature like most emulators have. Quick-saves are fine if the game is balanced around it (e.g. HL2). But some games would be way too easy if you could save anytime, anywhere.

No game should have a save system with the sole purpose of artificially inflating the difficulty.

Majora's Mask certainly doesn't do that.

 

[Khaz]

There's a reason Mario games don't work like Mario 2 anymore.

Yes, it's because publishers are pussies who want to make easy games so they won't scare the baby gamers and sell more.

If you can't stand going back to the beginning of the level when you miss a platform, maybe you should change hobby.

 

[Molemitts]

Also (I don't remember if it actually did this), the standard practice for resuming a suspend save is by having a different option like "continue" or "resume" in addition to "load game", which warns the user the suspend save data will be deleted after loaded before continuing.

An owl symbol appears to the right of the save file if you saved the game in that manner.

 

[CJCW]

If you can't stand going back to the beginning of the level when you miss a platform, maybe you should change hobby.

Or maybe that's a really annoying practice that is thankfully disappearing from games.

 

[tim_pkmn89]

Yes, it's because publishers are pussies who want to make easy games so they won't scare the baby gamers and sell more.

If you can't stand going back to the beginning of the level when you miss a platform, maybe you should change hobby.

But I play games to have fun, not to replay the same level over and over again because there's one difficult spot at the end.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

The save system is brilliant (with the owl statues), only ruined by the fact that you can cheat by copying the save before starting.

I'd argue that the day system wouldn't even work without it (the owl statues aren't that nessessary though, just a nicety)

But I play games to have fun, not to replay the same level over and over again because there's one difficult spot at the end.

The whole point of Majoras Mask is to play the same level over and over again for gods sake.

But the game is supposed to be frustrating to some point.

The entire game is about being stuck in a 3 day time loop. Frustration is one of the core emotions people would probably feel if they were in that situation. So yes, it is very important that people cannot us owl statues as permanent saves, because it is important that if a quest takes multiple days/events to complete, and they need to be completed in order, then the player shouldn't be allowed to redo one part until they get it and then move on to the next part, save, redo until you get it, next part, save, redo until you get it, etc. You gotta go through every day. That's the way it is. It's not a flaw. If you don't like it, fine, but the game actually does what it's supposed to do (puts the player in the characters shoes) and does it well. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Well said. And only quest where it could become frustrating is the hardest quest in the game and that's all right with me.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

I think the problem is more that it's a quickly hacked together suspend save and thus confuses players by not presenting itself as proper suspend saves usually do.

First of all, it should be performed by a "suspend & quit" option in the pause menu, not by a checkpoint object placed in the world. Also (I don't remember if it actually did this), the standard practice for resuming a suspend save is by having a different option like "continue" or "resume" in addition to "load game", which warns the user the suspend save data will be deleted after loaded before continuing.

Pretty sure it did warn you plenty and explain the concept but I definitely agree the ultimate suspend functionality is one you can do anywhere, at any time, and should act as if you never quit the game at all.

Yes, it's because publishers are pussies who want to make easy games so they won't scare the baby gamers and sell more.

If you can't stand going back to the beginning of the level when you miss a platform, maybe you should change hobby.

Nah, checkpoints are a godsend. I don't see how they'd work in Majora's Mask, though.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Look, even if it's just temporary saves anywhere instead of just at owl statues, it'll be good enough for me.

This would definitely be an acceptable compromise.

 

[Diprosalic]

MM is awesome because it works the way it does not despite it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

So basically people hate the save system because they don't understand it

 

[Griss]

I'd say it's intentional. Since you're on a time limit, you have to make what you do count, and starting over from a point into the cycle would remove the urgency.

Yep, and this is why I loved it as a save system. Every moment mattered in that game, and the sense of tension and pressure was continually palpable. Pikmin was similar, but to a lesser degree. I love having that pressure placed on me in a game.

 

[ramparter]

Having not played MM, are you saying it essentially deletes the owl save if you turned the game off after loading an owl save?

yes its meant to be a suspend / resume feature and not save and load if you screw up.

 

[Lothar]

I just beat MM for the first time recently. What are you talking about with temporary saves? You just stab the owl statues and then you can teleport back to them, right?

What the heck is an owl save?

 

[GaimeGuy]

The way to save the game is to play the song of time and return to dawn of the first day. They hacked in a suspend function for the western release (at the cost of 1 save slot), but there is 1 say to save the game

 

[GaimeGuy]

I just beat MM for the first time recently. What are you talking about with temporary saves? You just stab the owl statues and then you can teleport back to them, right?

What the heck is an owl save?

Talk to the owl statues, it lets you suspend the game.

 

[VendettaRed07]

I barely ever even used the owls.

When I played I would pretty much do only 1 thing every cycle. Like be it side quest or dungeons. Once I did what I wanted to do I'd restart to save and so time would start over and Id have more leeway with time. But are other people really doing multiple dungeons and tons of side quests every cycle ? Why would you do that to yourself?

 

[GaimeGuy]

I barely ever even used the owls.

When I played I would pretty much do only 1 thing every cycle. Like be it side quest or dungeons. Once I did what I wanted to do I'd restart to save and so time would start over and Id have more leeway with time. But are other people really doing multiple dungeons and tons of side quests every cycle ? Why would you do that to yourself?

I like both ways of playing

 

[VendettaRed07]

I understand doing it for fun, but I'm not sure why people would try to do too much in a single cycle force themselves to use the owls and then say the save system is broken because it forces a sense of urgency on the player, where as I dunno, I think the only reason you'd really use the owls often is to play the game feeling a sense of urgency.

 

[Ludovico]

Really hope they don't change the save system for the inevitable 3DS remake.
It fits with the actual gameplay - you have three days to save the world. If you quit to take a break, you either pause where you're at (NOT make a copy of that time), or reset to day one sans non-vital items.
It's not a difficult system, and for someone that HATES losing progress in games, I never suffered due to the way the saves worked.

 

[B-Dubs]

Actually, the entire game can be done in a single 3-day period, if I'm not mistaken.

Definitely not.