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[GooeyHeat]

I'll start by admitting that I haven't played Majora's Mask.
Save systems are a weird thing, and how much you can deal with the more restrictive ones really depends on how much time you can dedicate to a session of that game while knowing you won't be interrupted. I feel like save systems where you have less chances to save can be very useful in terms of fine-tuning a challenging experience, but if real life comes knocking often, then it becomes frustrating when you can't jump in and out of a game easily.
That said, tying suspend saves to save points is just an ugly idea, since the point of a suspend save is that you can stop playing and start again, but you can't keep reloading that save to eliminate a part of the game's challenge. The owl statue saves just sound really limited, and they seem like more trouble than they're worth.
If Majora's Mask gets a remake, then I definitely wouldn't want the owl saves. I might like suspend saves anywhere if it was a Wii U remake, and I'd definitely want them if it were a 3DS remake, because that's how handheld gaming is, and I don't always want to have to burn battery on sleep mode.

 

[mgs2master2]

So basically you have a permanent save (song of time) and an interm/quick save (owl) if I remember right.?

 

[bomma_man]

In the 3DS version they should let you do a quick save anywhere, and start you back in the area you finished in (a la WW and TP). There, fixed.

 

[Man God]

Definitely not.

You can beat the game in one cycle without cheating. You cannot do everything.

 

[mantidor]

So it's like a quick save

Owls are quick saves, it's intentional and it works great.

I'm confused by this terminology, the game has not quick saves, quick saves are the complete opposite, the game has suspended saves, like in handheld games. It's the equivalent of closing your DS.

*Sigh*...I just want this fanbase to recognize that this game can have flaws, It's a great game but it's not this holy divine gift from the sky that can do no wrong. Listen, if a feature is so obtuse and cumbersome that at every turn I find myself growing ever frustrated with the game to the extent that I don't want to play it anymore, then it's a flaw. Saving is massively important to games, and put frankly I hate repetition, so in my eyes having my save deleted after I resume playing is asinine regardless of how it plays into the theme. Furthermore, having the owl statues be permanent wouldn't ruin the game, I know because every time I play the game I use the second save slot as backup of my save, yet I'm still able to enjoy it. The only real problem that arises is the fact that people could keep retrying if the moon fell, and the easy and logical way to fix that is to just have the moon overwrite any saves when it falls.

To each their own I guess, I just don't think theming and storytelling should take precedent over something as vital and necessary as the ability to save your game.

I get your frustration but that is the core of MM. It's a game about repeating a time cycle, this has nothing to do with storytelling or theming, is simply its core gameplay mechanic, letting you quick save at any point would make a three day cycle a bore, is the sense of urgency the only thing that keeps it from being boring.

Which is the whole point, is it obtuse? of course it is, the fundamentals of the game are about limitation. Unfortunately people have fallen into the modern hype of MM being "the best Zelda" but that is only because the game is "dark" and "difficult" (reminds me other series of games hyped to death and back ), but that only works for certain kind of gamers and I find it perfectly valid many people don't put up with it, it's not a game for everyone and you aren't less of a Zelda fan or a gamer for not liking it. It's really a very different game from anything else out there so that is expected.

Even then I think that if you give it time the game can really grow on you, but it is a very odd Zelda game, a very odd adventure game and a very odd game in general, I don't blame anyone missing the liberties other Zeldas give you.

 

[Marow]

Owl Statues are nothing more than Quick Saves. You stop playing and when you return to the game the temporary save is removed. As such, it's not a permanent save which is frustrating to some (like the OP). The only way to permanently save is to use Song of Time and travel back to the first day of the cycle.

Now, the question is whether or not the lack of a "proper" save system throughout Majora's Mask is good or bad. In essentially all other Zelda titles, you can permanently save wherever you want and restart at the same location you left off (or, at the place you entered the area in).

Many who argue against permanent saves have the right idea, which is that the lack of saves reflects the game's narrative. After all, Majora's Mask is a game about time travel and suffering (more or less). Everything you encounter will endlessly repeat as long as Link is playing Song of Time. Therefore there needs to be consequences and limitations to make the world feel alive. The most obvious thing is how everything in the game - except rupees stored at the bank and a shortcut teleport to each dungeons' boss) will be undone whether ot not you had completed it before. Dungeon puzzles? Restart! Side quests? Restart! And so on.

This effectively forces you to learn how the game behaves, it makes you an observer as you play. Majora's Mask is the only Zelda title that actively requires you to memorize patterns and feel like an inhabitant of the world. You'll grow frustrated by the lack of time, you'll be sad to see certain events transpire, you'll feel joy yet guilt for quickly completing the main story while avoiding every citizens' personal problems. It's a very simple, yet effective, trick - and it feels completely natural. There are consequences to the game and the lack of save points highlights that; to save you need to flee from what you've failed at and restart the cycle.

Now, the question is whether or not making Owl Statues permanent saves would be a good idea. Personally I think it's an awful idea as it would go against the philosophy of the game and give it less of an impact. What would it even add, except allowing you to cheat the system? What you need to do to progress is generally accomplished within minutes even if you restart the cycle using Song of Time, as you the new time know more than during the previous one. This, again, helps strengthening the narrative and atmosphere of Majora's Mask. Your goal is to stop a disaster and if you have to repeat it countless of times, you'll naturally want to use shortcuts to cut down the time. This allows you for putting the whole experience thus far into a larger perspective, reflecting on what has happened and why. Permanent saves would remove this important aspect.

However, as mentioned before there are certain things that are permanent after each new Song of Time: rupees and shortcut teleportation to dungeon bosses. These two are defendable to a degree, even if removing these (i.e. forcing you to repeat the dungeons) would most likely increase the tension even more. The reason it's defendable is, ironically, due to streamlining the gameplay. Seeing as areas will change after the bosses are dead, it'd be much too large of a hassle having to repeat the whole dungeon as they're very linear in execution. While every other part of the game goes A>B>C>D the time travel allows you to go from A>D, while dungeons would still be A>B>C>D. If you could somehow access the boss key easily with the proper weapon, then you could actually remove the teleportation from the equation. As for rupees, it's because the economy is tough in Termina. It'd be impossible to start over grinding for rupees with each new cycle, so the bank is a good compromise.

Speaking of compromises, I have a simple yet elegant solution to the problem. Keep the Quick Save system as the old game, yet don't attach it to the Owl Statues. You can instead Quick Save wherever you are and restart in the same area you are in, much like other Zelda titles. This wouldn't hurt the narrative nor are there any actual consequences of doing it (the Owl Statues don't have any strategic placements afaik). Permanent saves would still be limited to Song of Time, thus keeping the tension intact.

Problem solved.

 

[Galactic Fork]

The time loop is a central point of the game. You can't accomplish something, you go back to the dawn of the first day. It's a time loop. In a meta level, a permanent save creates its own time loop. You don't accomplish something, you go back 5 minutes, or 10 minutes, or whatever. If you fail again, you do that again. Creating your own time loop outside the designs of the game. It makes the time-loop mechanic kinda pointless, or at least circumvented by the save loops.

To me it's like getting pissed at a platformer because of gravity. If this was a platformer, would you really listen to somebody saying:

*Sigh*...I just want this fanbase to recognize that this game can have flaws, It's a great game but it's not this holy divine gift from the sky that can do no wrong. Listen, if a feature is so obtuse and cumbersome that at every turn I find myself growing ever frustrated with the game to the extent that I don't want to play it anymore, then it's a flaw. Movement is massively important to games, and put frankly I hate repetition, so in my eyes having my character fall if I move over a hole is asinine regardless of how it plays into the theme. Furthermore, having the character automatically float over holes wouldn't ruin the game, I know because every time I play the game I use a hack to remove gravity, yet I'm still able to enjoy it.

 

[KarmaCow]

You can beat the game in one cycle without cheating. You cannot do everything.

That seems crazy, is that running through dungeons or starting from a fresh file?

 

[Okamid3n]

I own the game. I've played it twice, once on a console and once on an emulator with save states. I found the game vastly more fun with save states.

Just give the option to the players, problem solved. When the game starts, the game can asks you if you want to play the game how it was originally planned or with permanent owl saves. Maybe they can hide the feature in an easy/normal/Hero Mode difficulty setting too, since the Zelda fanbase is familiar with that now.

I know people will still be pissed because of the option simply existing, but that's irrational and should not be taken into account. There are genuinely tons of people who would abslotuly enjoy the game way more if they could permanent-save with owls, and that's perfectly fine. The opposite is also true, there are tons of people who prefer to play it how it was intended.

 

[wrowa]

A "normal" save system would completely destroy everything Majora's Mask sets out to do. There are no second chances in this game - every time you fail a challenge you have to pay for it with less time on your clock until the moon falls down to destroy the planet. Having to deal with the limited ressource that is time is the essential part of Majora's Mask and being able to just reload in the middle of a cycle would take away all of the consequence, all of the risk.

Yes, the game will fuck you over if you fail a sidequest or if you die at a boss over and over again. However, that's the point! It's like complaining that a Souls game is too hard. You aren't criticizing a flaw, but a defining gameplay mechanic.

 

[Glass Rebel]

You know save state scumming is getting out of hand when people ask for systems as integral to the game's core mechanic to be changed.

 

[CrimsonCommie]

Owl Statue saving wasn't even in the Japanese version, it was added to make the game easier for the west.

Wow I never heard that before.

 

[jackal27]

THIS was the reason I hated Majora's Mask as a kid. I could NOT figure this stuff out for the life of me.

 

[Deadbeat]

If you say owls are quick saves, you dont know what quicksaves are. Simple as that.

 

[Coffee Dog]

A "normal" save system would completely destroy everything Majora's Mask sets out to do. There are no second chances in this game - every time you fail a challenge you have to pay for it with less time on your clock until the moon falls down to destroy the planet. Having to deal with the limited ressource that is time is the essential part of Majora's Mask and being able to just reload in the middle of a cycle would take away all of the consequence, all of the risk.

Yes, the game will fuck you over if you fail a sidequest or if you die at a boss over and over again. However, that's the point! It's like complaining that a Souls game is too hard. You aren't criticizing a flaw, but a defining gameplay mechanic.

.

It's an integral part of the game's design. Yes, there is a learning curve, but that's why it's fun.

 

[Okamid3n]

.

It's an integral part of the game's design. Yes, there is a learning curve, but that's why it's fun.

That's why it's fun to you, not so much to others. Options are fine.

The game's design doesn't actually rest on the lack of permanent owl saves, the game is awesome either way. This will become obvious if the remake has permanent owl saves as an option and tons of new people can finally enjoy the game.

Here's a relevant example for the people against options. Fire Emblem Awakening would never have become as well-received if it still only had suspend saves during chapters. And yet, one could argue just as easily that "perma-death + no permanent saves during chapters is the essence of the game's design, making all your moves important."

In the end, giving players the option to save when it's convenient is always a much better move. This is coming from someone who only plays Fire Emblem on classic mode.

 

[Polioliolio]

I don't get quick saves.

In NSMB.. What's the difference between a quick save, and a full save?

Why not just make quick saves into the full saves? Don't the fact that quick saves exist take a bit of a dump on whatever the main save feature is?

I'm not saying all games need a save state.. I really dig games that force a save system into their game design.. like Dead Rising. But... why have both?

 

[wrowa]

That's why it's fun to you, not so much to others. Options are fine.

The game's design doesn't actually rest on the lack of permanent owl saves, the game is awesome either way. This will become obvious if the remake has permanent owl saves as an option and tons of new people can finally enjoy the game.

Options aren't always a good thing, despite what some people like to think. Most people aren't going to voluntarily punish themselves if they have the choice. Because, let's face it, defeat always sucks. However without defeat and the punishment that follows it victory is only half as sweet. Majora's Mask is all about the feeling of urgency, the stress you feel when you are facing a boss and only got three minutes left until the game's over. It's the endlessly relieving feel of victory you'll experience afterwards that is what the game is all about. You are travelling through a world where time is the most important thing in the world - and that's what you are supposed to feel. All of that would get completely lost if you always had the knowledge back in your mind that you can just go back to your previous save if time is going to become a problem.

Is Majora's Mask a game for everyone? No. But that's okay. Watering a game down to appeal to everyone is never the solution - there a hundreds of other games you could play instead. We're living in a time where almost everything that has a budget is trying to appeal to each and every person in the world. We don't need to go back to the few games that are brave and bold enough to try their own controversial thing only to make them part of that indistinguishalbe soup of sameness.

 

[orborborb]

The main reason that Zelda II and Majora's Mask are the two best Zelda games is that they are the only ones which don't trivialize failure.

The main reason to punish failure significantly is not so "it feels like an accomplishment" when the player succeeds, but to create in the player a greater variety of emotional states that will affect HOW they play the game. You can put a lot more depth into the levels and gameplay systems when you know that players will be approaching the same situations from very different mental states with different incentives about their various resources.

edit: yeah in Majora's it's not death but failure to achieve some goal before your time is up

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

The main reason that Zelda II and Majora's Mask are the two best Zelda games is that they are the only ones which don't trivialize death.

Well.....I don't think I'd say that about Majora's Mask at least. Not that I don't love it, but death in that game is still pretty much meaningless.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I don't get quick saves.

In NSMB.. What's the difference between a quick save, and a full save?

Why not just make quick saves into the full saves? Don't the fact that quick saves exist take a bit of a dump on whatever the main save feature is?

I'm not saying all games need a save state.. I really dig games that force a save system into their game design.. like Dead Rising. But... why have both?

Immediacy. Quick saves are if you have to stop right this moment, the designers don't want to send you back because of current time restraint, rather than failure. That way it can not punish you for having to stop, but still punish you for failure.

 

[Htown]

I don't get quick saves.

In NSMB.. What's the difference between a quick save, and a full save?

Why not just make quick saves into the full saves? Don't the fact that quick saves exist take a bit of a dump on whatever the main save feature is?

I'm not saying all games need a save state.. I really dig games that force a save system into their game design.. like Dead Rising. But... why have both?

Because you can save your game for two different reasons:
1. To have a place to start from if you mess up
2. To have a place to resume from if you have to leave the game and come back

The vast majority of games just use the same save slot for both. Not all of them, though. Fire Emblem likes to have hard saves at the beginning and end of battles, along with "suspend/resume" saves for when you have to leave and come back. If you quit out of Dark Souls, it saves everything exactly where it was, right down to your exact position, but if you mess up you go back to the latest bonfire.

Usually games that like to play around with making sure you feel the consequences of your mistakes (Dark Souls with the possibility of losing souls, Fire Emblem with permadeath of characters) like to have hard saves for permanent progress and suspend/resume saves if you have to leave.

 

[Okamid3n]

Is Majora's Mask a game for everyone? No. But that's okay. Watering a game down to appeal to everyone is never the solution - there a hundreds of other games you could play instead. We're living in a time where almost everything that has a budget is trying to appeal to each and every person in the world. We don't need to go back to the few games that are brave and bold enough to try their own controversial thing only to make them part of that indistinguishalbe soup of sameness.

I point you to the second part of my post, which I edited in. Fire Emblem did it, and it was a much better game for it. People aren't dumb, if they prefer to play Majora's Mask how it was intended, they'll go with it.

On the other hand, people who hate the current mode will absolutely like the game better if they give players the option. You can argue that the experience is lesser all you want; to them, the experience would be better.

And saying MM will become part of the "soup of sameness" if it adds something so basic is just silly. Fire Emblem didn't become part of the "soup of sameness" just because it added permanent saves. People are really overselling the lack of saving here, the game's theme doesn't crumble just because of a permanent save system. The theme of urgency is still very much present.

 

[Benzychenz]

How can you forget to save in the first place?

 

[PogiJones]

No game should have a save system with the sole purpose of artificially inflating the difficulty.

Majora's Mask certainly doesn't do that.

Have you ever used an emulator? I can beat Mike Tyson's Punch-Out with quick-saves if I just save after each successful punch, and reload when I screw up. I can beat it with full health. Saving whenever and wherever is not appropriate for some types of games, it sucks all the difficulty out of the game.

It's not about "artificially inflating difficulty," it's about NOT artificially deflating it.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm slightly confused at the amount of people on this thread that not only haven't encountered suspend saves before, they apparently can't wrap their heads around the concept. Is it because it's more common in PC games? Plenty of modern games, including virtually all roguelikes that allow saving (like FTL), implement suspend saves the exact same way; it's the most basic step to prevent save scumming (although obviously the PC platform itself allows to circumvent them via file copying).

You might or might not like suspend saves (and you might legitimately argue for or against their use in Majora's Mask in particular), but acting like Majora's Mask was the first and last game in history to have them (and therefore solely responsible for them as a concept) is weird at best and ignorant at worst.

Have you ever used an emulator? I can beat Mike Tyson's Punch-Out with quick-saves if I just save after each successful punch, and reload when I screw up. I can beat it with full health. Saving whenever and wherever is not appropriate for some types of games, it sucks all the difficulty out of the game.

It's not about "artificially inflating difficulty," it's about NOT artificially deflating it.

It's kind of sad that something so obvious as this needs to be pointed out, but here we are. Restricting or multiplying the points at which you're able to go back to correct mistakes will ALWAYS result in increased or decreased difficulty; there's nothing artificial about it, it's all part of the game balance (and therefore can be well designed or not). If Spelunky allowed you to save after each level, you would finish it in an evening instead of weeks. If Dark Souls had checkpoints every thirty seconds it would not be much harder than the average AAA game.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I always thought it was pretty straight forward. Full save resets the clock. Owls suspend the game in it's current spot. Whether it's fun or not is certainly debatable.

 

[sphinx]

I always understood the system, owls vs. song of time.

what I think was a screw up is that it wasn't very clear, at least in my first playthrough, what remains and what goes away in your iventory.

it took me for-fucking-ever to gather all of the zora eggs... once I got them, I thought "phew, that was hard, better save right now before something else goes wrong or I get killed".

I played the song of time....

eggs are all gone, I had to do EVERYTHING from scratch.

I am a diehard zelda fan and that was the sole reason I put up with that fucked up saving system and went through the side quest again.

 

[Gsnap]

I point you to the second part of my post, which I edited in. Fire Emblem did it, and it was a much better game for it. People aren't dumb, if they prefer to play Majora's Mask how it was intended, they'll go with it.

On the other hand, people who hate the current mode will absolutely like the game better if they give players the option. You can argue that the experience is lesser all you want; to them, the experience would be better.

And saying MM will become part of the "soup of sameness" if it adds something so basic is just silly. Fire Emblem didn't become part of the "soup of sameness" just because it added permanent saves. People are really overselling the lack of saving here, the game's theme doesn't crumble just because of a permanent save system. The theme of urgency is still very much present.

I can also take Tetris and make it so that the game doesn't speed up as time goes on. Lots of people would love it because they could play for longer and get higher scores. Doesn't matter that it defeats the whole purpose of the game. I could also play a challenging game using invincibility cheat codes. Sure it'd be fun at first, but I'd trivialize the entire point of the game. Wouldn't chess be more fun if all my pieces could move like the queen?

What people need to understand is that there are no features that are so all-important that players should have the option just because "options are always better". They aren't always better, and the thing that you want can give you a different experience than the one the developers want you to have. Doesn't matter if it would be "more fun" to you. The game is designed to work a specific way in order to give a specific experience. If some people don't like that experience, fine, but that doesn't mean that they need or deserve the option to override it. Even if it is "just an option". Developers don't need to fill their games with so many options to make sure that every player can have fun with it. If you want a different experience, go play a different game.

Save anywhere is not a feature that every game should have. The way a game uses saving can affect the game in a big way, so it's good that the developers actually thought about the consequences of having permanent saves at owl statues. The point is, games are based around a set of rules. Developers create the rules, and players figure out how to play the game based around those rules. The rules shouldn't be changed just because some people might find it "more fun".

 

[Weltall Zero]

I can also take Tetris and make it so that the game doesn't speed up as time goes on. Lots of people would love it because they could play for longer and get higher scores. Doesn't matter that it defeats the whole purpose of the game. I could also play a challenging game using invincibility cheat codes. Sure it'd be fun at first, but I'd trivialize the entire point of the game. Wouldn't chess be more fun if all my pieces could move like the queen?

What people need to understand is that there are no features that are so all-important that players should have the option just because "options are always better". They aren't always better, and the thing that you want can give you a different experience than the one the developers want you to have. Doesn't matter if it would be "more fun" to you. The game is designed to work a specific way in order to give a specific experience. If some people don't like that experience, fine, but that doesn't mean that they need or deserve the option to override it. Even if it is "just an option". Developers don't need to fill their games with so many options to make sure that every player can have fun with it. If you want a different experience, go play a different game.

Save anywhere is not a feature that every game should have. The way a game uses saving can affect the game in a big way, so it's good that the developers actually thought about the consequences of having permanent saves at owl statues. The point is, games are based around a set of rules. Developers create the rules, and players figure out how to play the game based around those rules. The rules shouldn't be changed just because some people might find it "more fun".

Excellently put, even though I feel it's often an uphill battle trying to make people understand this or even that you're not trying to make them play "your way". I realized as much when I proposed that having infinite credits in Mystara Chronicles was a mistake.

 

[Marow]

it took me for-fucking-ever to gather all of the zora eggs... once I got them, I thought "phew, that was hard, better save right now before something else goes wrong or I get killed".

I played the song of time....

eggs are all gone, I had to do EVERYTHING from scratch.

I am a diehard zelda fan and that was the sole reason I put up with that fucked up saving system and went through the side quest again.

Wait, what? By getting all of the Zora eggs you get a song that unlocks the temple. Or did you not even go back to the research lab (or whatever it was) before using Song of Time? Seeing as you use a bottle to scoop the eggs up, with no indication of how many are left, I'm not sure you even knew it was the final egg (unless a number actually was given at the start and you counted (and I don't remember)).

 

[Professor Beef]

*Sigh*...I just want this fanbase to recognize that this game can have flaws, It's a great game but it's not this holy divine gift from the sky that can do no wrong. Listen, if a feature is so obtuse and cumbersome that at every turn I find myself growing ever frustrated with the game to the extent that I don't want to play it anymore, then it's a flaw. Saving is massively important to games, and put frankly I hate repetition, so in my eyes having my save deleted after I resume playing is asinine regardless of how it plays into the theme. Furthermore, having the owl statues be permanent wouldn't ruin the game, I know because every time I play the game I use the second save slot as backup of my save, yet I'm still able to enjoy it. The only real problem that arises is the fact that people could keep retrying if the moon fell, and the easy and logical way to fix that is to just have the moon overwrite any saves when it falls.

This is not a good way to get your point across, just an FYI. It makes it seem like you're whining and pleading for people to agree with you when plenty of people have stated why they prefer it.

 

[Haunted]

Dead Rising did the repeatable cycle thing better anyway.

Yes it does

I remember it was explained when I played, that's why I never used them, because it was clear it was just a waste of time. I had one of the later cartridges though, so it could be they added the explanation.

Ah ok. It's been years since my last playthrough, so I'd forgotten it if it was mentioned in-game.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I always understood the system, owls vs. song of time.

what I think was a screw up is that it wasn't very clear, at least in my first playthrough, what remains and what goes away in your iventory.

it took me for-fucking-ever to gather all of the zora eggs... once I got them, I thought "phew, that was hard, better save right now before something else goes wrong or I get killed".

I played the song of time....

eggs are all gone, I had to do EVERYTHING from scratch.

I am a diehard zelda fan and that was the sole reason I put up with that fucked up saving system and went through the side quest again.

Expendables and rupees and quest items are lost, as are dungeon keys. You keep equipment, key items, masks, inventory upgrades, and great fairy fountain upgrades

 

[Okamid3n]

I can also take Tetris and make it so that the game doesn't speed up as time goes on. Lots of people would love it because they could play for longer and get higher scores. Doesn't matter that it defeats the whole purpose of the game. I could also play a challenging game using invincibility cheat codes. Sure it'd be fun at first, but I'd trivialize the entire point of the game. Wouldn't chess be more fun if all my pieces could move like the queen?

Can you not go down the slippery slope? It gets old to have your arguments twisted into something clearly unwinnable. Saving permanently at owls isn't anything crazy like that, not even close. Don't be obtuse, the game's mechanics do not lie on the lack of saving options at the owls.

Again, were you guys against casual mode in Fire Emblem? The game survived just fine to its addition and I now have a lot more friends who play it. Are you guys boycotting Virtual Console games on the 3DS because they have savestates too?

The reason I play FE on classic mode is because the game is about your tactics and skill. MM, on the other hand, is really not so challenging that the lack of permanent save adds anything besides tedium for me. Usually, you end up having to replay something simply because you lacked the necessary information, nothing more. Dungeons, though, are always really easy to clear on first try, owl saves won't exactly make it much easier.

A remake should absolutely try to win back some of the people who hated the game because of the limited saving options. Hero Mode would be the perfect compromise, imo. Give the option of permanent saving in the normal quest, but Hero Mode is x2 damage + suspended saves only. There is no problem with this set up.

 

[Psxphile]

This thread has me worried that a MM remake would not be received all too well by the game audience of today. More importantly, the Nintendo of today might see that as well and deem to make changes. Maybe that's why their stalling on the remake?

Or maybe they'll say 'fuck it', toss it up on VC (again) and call it a day.

 

[VASPER]

That was the one nice thing is that you could have just left the N64 on the entire time and it would have been ok.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Even as a kid, I never had an issue with the save system in MM. It's still up there with OoT as one of my favorite games of all time.

 

[MisterHero]

Playing the Song of Time is a fine solution. Just make sure to visit the bank before you do it though!

 

[Gsnap]

Can you not go down the slippery slope? It gets old to have your arguments twisted into something clearly unwinnable. Saving permanently at owls isn't anything crazy like that, not even close. Don't be obtuse, the game's mechanics do not lie on the lack of saving options at the owls.

Again, were you guys against casual mode in Fire Emblem? The game survived just fine to its addition and I now have a lot more friends who play it. Are you guys boycotting Virtual Console games because they have savestates too?

The reason I play FE on classic mode is because the game is about your tactics and skill. MM, on the other hand, is really not so challenging that the lack of permanent save adds anything besides tedium for me. Usually, you end up having to replay something simply because you lacked the necessary information, nothing more. Dungeons, though, are always really easy to clear on first try, owl saves won't exactly make it much easier.

A remake should absolutely try to win back some of the people who hated the game because of the limited saving options. Hero Mode would be the perfect compromise, imo. Give the option of permanent saving in the normal quest, but Hero Mode is x2 damage + suspended saves only. There is no problem with this set up.

Exactly. That's the point. It plays to the games themes. Being stuck in a time loop can be tedious at times. The developers had a vision and they did a really good job of making sure that the mechanics (saving included) supported that vision. Again, if you or other people didn't like it, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it needs to be changed for you. They don't even need to give you the option. People need to learn to play games as they are they are made. If you wish it was something else, go find a game that is that something else and play that. Majora's Mask is similar to (though not completely based on) rogue-likes. Starting over is one of the major mechanics and themes of the game, therefore the way the game is saved should reflect that.

And it's not really a slippery slope when I hear people making statements like that all the time. I've heard people say that they wish pieces didn't speed up in tetris. I've seen plenty of people on neogaf say that every game should have quick saves or save states, even if it would be a huge fundamental change to the game, trivializing the entire reason the game exists. And you know plenty of people have played through entire games with cheat codes, so that's hardly slippery. And the chess comment was just a joke to help get the point across. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as Fire Emblem. Well I don't know. I haven't played enough of them to actually analyze it and make a decision on it. But I have played Majora's Mask plenty, and it's pretty obvious what they're going for with the game and how people's suggestions about saving are in direct opposition to one of the games fundamental themes/mechanics. So yeah, I will defend the lack of permanent saves at owl statues, and no, I do not care about what other people find fun. I care about how the game was designed and why it was designed that way. I care about what in a game is an actual flaw and what is just a perceived flaw based on people's unwillingness to play the game how it was designed.

Not every game has to cater to everyone's wishes. Some games can be crazy, experimental games that ask a little more of the player. Some games want to trap the player in a 3 day time loop, and to have the player feel the same emotions link is feeling throughout the game. And one of those feelings is frustration at being stuck in a 3 day time loop. It's not a flaw. It's the core of the experience, so people need to deal with it or play another game.

 

[PrincessDan]

I'm not sure if I remember correctly but to solve the save issue : once you load a save, cant you just hit the owl stone and save again before you go on your merry way.

 

[Green Mamba]

That the problem, I dont want to go back the 3 days when I mess up or miss a event.

Tough shit, play something else then.

 

[sphinx]

Wait, what? By getting all of the Zora eggs you get a song that unlocks the temple. Or did you not even go back to the research lab (or whatever it was) before using Song of Time? Seeing as you use a bottle to scoop the eggs up, with no indication of how many are left, I'm not sure you even knew it was the final egg (unless a number actually was given at the start and you counted (and I don't remember)).

the problem is that you have to throw the eggs you've collected in a pond in the lab, once you drop them there, they remain there permanently, even after playing the song of time (if I remember correctly....)

my mistake was that I collected the eggs, and as soon as I got them, I saved and didn't drop them in the pond, I lost them.

it was my mistake but damn, is it really necessary to do such a complicated and convoluted saving system??

Expendables and rupees and quest items are lost, as are dungeon keys. You keep equipment, key items, masks, inventory upgrades, and great fairy fountain upgrades

 

[Okamid3n]

Exactly. That's the point. It plays to the games themes. Being stuck in a time loop can be tedious at times. The developers had a vision and they did a really good job of making sure that the mechanics (saving included) supported that vision.

You're just twisting it to make the statu quo seem more appealing than it is. Tedium is not the developers' vision, the themes are not shattered from the added option of saving. The themes are perfectly intact, the oppressing atmosphere of having to hurry is still there. You'd still have to replay events multiple time.

I feel like if some of you had been raised on the japanese version, you'd be arguing that suspended save was twisting the developers' vision of "having to play through the 3 day cycles in one sitting" and that the western version was crap.

I'm still curious about what's wrong with my Hero Mode suggestion, besides not wanting others to experience the game slightly faster than you.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I'm still curious about what's wrong with my Hero Mode suggestion, besides not wanting others to experience the game slightly faster than you.

Ok, how about just an option in all games to make your character invincible and also an option to just go to the end of the game? An option to turn off gravity in platformers. An option to spawn the most powerful weapons. A button to solve puzzles. You know, just as an option. Options are good!

 

[Gsnap]

You're just twisting it to make the statu quo seem more appealing than it is. Tedium is not the developers' vision, the themes are not shattered from the added option of saving. The themes are perfectly intact, the oppressing atmosphere of having to hurry is still there. You'd still have to replay events multiple time.

I feel like if some of you had been raised on the japanese version, you'd be arguing that suspended save was twisting the developers' vision of "having to play through the 3 day cycles in one sitting" and that the western version was crap.

I'm still curious about what's wrong with my Hero Mode suggestion, besides not wanting others to experience the game slightly faster than you.

It's not appealing to you. It's not appealing to a lot of impatient people. And as I've said in pretty much all my posts on the subject. That's fine. Go play a different game that does appeal to you. Don't ask that developers change a game to appeal to you when there is nothing wrong with the game in the first place. Other than the fact that it doesn't appeal to you.

What's wrong with your suggestion is that plenty of people will choose the "faster option". Because people are lazy and want to experience content in faster and easier ways. They're making the experience a different one from what the developers intended in the first place. Perhaps even a lesser one. Maybe if they had played it the proper way they would have found that experience to be more gratifying. But they'll never know because so many people always choose the easier/faster option because "hey, what could it possibly hurt?" The game takes you on an adventure. Sometimes adventures are hard, sometimes they're frustrating, and yes, sometimes they're fun too. Sometimes the frustration leads to an even greater feeling of "fun" or satisfaction. Sometimes it's just gratifying to work on a quest for a long time and finally finish it. That's what the game gives to its players, and it's lessened when it's made easier. It's lessened when you can redo as many times as you want from every owl statue. Sometimes games don't give people options, and they tell them to suck it up or go play a different game. There's nothing wrong with that. Let games be what they are and quit asking for them to be something else.

It's good for the industry to have games like Majora's Mask. Games that have a clear vision and don't deviate from it just to appease the people who don't actually care about what the game is trying to achieve in the first place. Games that ask the player to bring something of themselves. Games that ask more of the player, and in return give them a unique and satisfying experience, as long as they're are able to commit and actually invest and put themselves in the character's shoes.

And with that, I've said everything I have to say on the subject. Goodnight, all.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Are you guys boycotting Virtual Console games on the 3DS because they have savestates too?

I'm not hot on DD services in general, but yes, this bothered me enough to turn me even further away from VC.

I like it when games have consequences.

 

[Okamid3n]

I think I'll leave it at that too. This is the Fire Emblem Casual mode debate all over again, where people over-dramatize the changes before the game actually comes out, then nobody ever mentions it again when they realize they can still enjoy their game the exact same way as before. The save system is not the center piece by which all of MM holds together.

But I'll just mention this one thing:

Ok, how about just an option in all games to make your character invincible and also an option to just go to the end of the game? An option to turn off gravity in platformers. An option to spawn the most powerful weapons. A button to solve puzzles. You know, just as an option. Options are good!

Can we please address these issues on a case-by-case basis instead of creating easier-to-attack hypotheticals? No one's asking to go option-crazy, I'm just talking about the most discussed and only issue people seem to have with an otherwise near-perfect game. Thank you.

 

[Dryk]

Yes, but for once, the game list is severely lacking. There's indeed dozens (or more probably hundreds) of games that uses this kind of trick.

Most strategy games, to begin with. Valkyria Chronicles, too, IIRC.

I'm still baffled that so many people here have never encountered a Suspend/Resume system. It's one of the most common anti-save-scumming measures I'm aware of. It doesn't bother me at all either, because I know that the save system is always designed first. The suspend/resume is only ever there to make an intentionally restrictive save system easier on the player.

(Also another to add to the list, up until X/Y a similar system was used in the battle facilities in Pokemon)

 

[TaiKH92]

But the owls aren't the save system of the game, that's the song of time