If Le Pen wins the European Union is finished; if the EU disappears, the world basically ends. The fate of mankind rests on Macron winning, literally.
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|OT| French Presidential Elect 2017 - La France est toujours insoumise; Le Pen loses
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If Le Pen wins the European Union is finished; if the EU disappears, the world basically ends. The fate of mankind rests on Macron winning, literally.
It is, though. It absolutely is.
Her supporters are going to vote, without question. She has that support.
We need people to oppose that with every possible vote.
All I can do is plead with you to reconsider. No insults here, just begging.
You're lucky that you don't have to care who wins. You're life won't be destroyed by a Le Pen victory - but others are not so lucky.
Disagreeing with Macron is no reason to abstain here when you see what is at stake. This is a huge deal.
Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order
Member
In a two candidate system that is exactly what it is.
Nah bro, all of the EU nations and their dependents could go down the drain for 30 years of Venezuela recession and the world/mankind would still lurch on.
And yes i am European,
Blackpuppy
Member
Voter blanc est une démonstration vide. C'est un oubli. Il faut arrêter cet attitude égoïste "tout ou rien".
En étant américain, je n'étais gère d'accord avec la politique de Clinton. Mais j'ai mis de côté mes sentiments personnels parce que j'ai pensé aux sentiments des autres. Les mexicains qui sont installés là-bas avec des familles, les femmes qui veulent garder le droit de quoi faire avec leurs corps, les pauvres qui souffrent sous un système de santé qui pompe les dernières centimes de leurs poches.
Mais l'égoïsme a gagné dans mon pays natal. Regarde maintenant le résultat. Tu préfères habiter dans une France pareil? Alors il faut arrêter de penser qu'à soi et penser aux autres!
In this case it's mathematics really.
Lord Frieza
Member
In any election, those who don't vote, especially those who just dislike both candidates but realize one could be far, far worse than the, are indirectly responsible for the winning part.
Palette Swap
Member
Yeah, I agree with that. Eating each other and setting up trials won't achieve anything. Particularly when there are other fundamentals we agree on.
Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order
Member
I'm sorry but people who say "you won't make me vote that way" have already dug their ideological heels in so deep that nothing you say will change them. Might as well talk past them and point out their delusions to anyone who is still listening.
The fight against climate change is already lost if the EU disappears.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Quoted for truth
I agree. Even with the best intentions and a polite discourse, these things inevitably end up in a cesspool of anger and resentment. It's the best way to entrench people in their position even more.
Sorry but all the "Please vote against lepen" make me laugh.
There are reasons why it has grow so much, but most politics play the blind and deserve it, they also play with it well with their shitty usefull vote.
There are reasons why it has grow so much, but most politics play the blind and deserve it, they also play with it well with their shitty usefull vote.
The fate of mankind rest on macron really ? there better to have no mankind if that's it.
Optics! Getting Poligaf flashbacks from last year.
It's really not. If you like A more than B (which mathematically means the same thing as "if you dislike B more than A") and you don't vote for A, then that's one less vote B needs to match.
Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order
Member
People are lost.
There a plenty of other things to discuss, plenty of new arguments to be made.
We all agree than Le Pen is a catastrophy, that's a start.
So saying to an anti liberal that not voting for Macron makes him an asshole doesn't help.
Fixed that for you.
Are we really doing this again? Talking about not voting for various reasons, indirectly allowing the crazy racist, holocaust denying piece of shit to get a foothold? This is exactly the same kind of reasoning that let people like Trump win.
If you disagree with Le Pen, then you need to actively vote for the other guy to stop her, even if you don't love Macron. Going "I don't like this guy but I don't like the other guy either, so I won't vote" is counterproductive, because any point you are trying to make by not voting is lost by doing that. In the end, not voting indirectly supports the pieces of shit that you are against, and everything those pieces of shit will do when they're in power - and you can bet your ass that it'll be FULL of things that you hate and disagree with - will be things you will have to live with because of your attempt at protesting the system.
If you dislike the system, not voting and indirectly voting in the shithead is not the way to protest it. Get the other, sane guy in power first, then do something about the system.
If you disagree with Le Pen, then you need to actively vote for the other guy to stop her, even if you don't love Macron. Going "I don't like this guy but I don't like the other guy either, so I won't vote" is counterproductive, because any point you are trying to make by not voting is lost by doing that. In the end, not voting indirectly supports the pieces of shit that you are against, and everything those pieces of shit will do when they're in power - and you can bet your ass that it'll be FULL of things that you hate and disagree with - will be things you will have to live with because of your attempt at protesting the system.
If you dislike the system, not voting and indirectly voting in the shithead is not the way to protest it. Get the other, sane guy in power first, then do something about the system.
Not at all surprising, considering MLP has been sighted visiting Trump and Putin recently.
Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order
Member
In my perfect bubble, the "horseshoe" far-left are neutered into utter irrelevance, while the far-right still need to be hammered down.
I apologize for misunderstanding the situation in France though.
I didn't call him an asshole. I said he was lazy and selfish.
The laziness part could have been rectified by putting out a more nuanced argument other than both sides suck. Dunno what could be done to rectify the selfishness.
I didn't mean you specifically. But you get my point right? The result is the same.
Voting in a bourgeois election is pointless, and not voting is valid. Lesser evilism is just rightward creep.
Liberals and anyone who generally believes in "their country" often say things like "I won't tell you who to vote for but I think you should vote it's your civic duty" or some such bullshit. If you feel that voting for a candidate does not fit into any particular strategy for achieving working class power in the country then your decision ought to be not to vote.
Liberals and anyone who generally believes in "their country" often say things like "I won't tell you who to vote for but I think you should vote it's your civic duty" or some such bullshit. If you feel that voting for a candidate does not fit into any particular strategy for achieving working class power in the country then your decision ought to be not to vote.
AuthenticM
Member
Has Le Pen ever said anything positive about Rodrigo Duterte? If yes, please share a source. I didn't find anything but I'm sure she did at some point.
Eh. It is less about convincing the person than it is about not letting bad ideas fester unchallenged. That kind of thinking is just as much a cancer as voting for somebody like Le Pen.
Souldriver
Member
The parallels to the US election cycle make me gag.
"Oooh the optics of this are not that great, the other candidate won this battle in the media" all up in this bitch.
People using this line of reasoning are even implying that the "optics" are not the same as the reality, yet somehow they let optics become reality.
Macron has planned visit to talk to delegates of unions and whatnot behind closed doors. Le Pen shows up unannounced at the people striking for a photoshoot. Anyone with half a brain knows what's the approach most likely to lead to a result and agreement. But hey, the optics!
LePen will win this media cycle. The Belgian state media titles it "Le Pen outsmarts Macron". For fucks sake. And it goes to show that even if USA media is absolute trash tier, continental Europe media is not much better. Let's hope European voters however are.
"Oooh the optics of this are not that great, the other candidate won this battle in the media" all up in this bitch.
People using this line of reasoning are even implying that the "optics" are not the same as the reality, yet somehow they let optics become reality.
Macron has planned visit to talk to delegates of unions and whatnot behind closed doors. Le Pen shows up unannounced at the people striking for a photoshoot. Anyone with half a brain knows what's the approach most likely to lead to a result and agreement. But hey, the optics!
LePen will win this media cycle. The Belgian state media titles it "Le Pen outsmarts Macron". For fucks sake. And it goes to show that even if USA media is absolute trash tier, continental Europe media is not much better. Let's hope European voters however are.
MonsieurPaul
Neo Member
Firstly, you will vote/not vote for whoever you want. I don't care. I don't believe in "consignes de votes" and that's not the point of my post.
What I find interesting in your answer, and I think we find it a lot especially among JLM voters, is the search for "purity": politics without concession, all or nothing, because our ideals are better/higher than everyone else's. What I find worrying is that this kind of mindset will benefits from a victory of MLP, because with MLP president every actions (even the violent ones) will be justified.
I believe that politics is about concessions, negociations, talking with people you're disagreeing with. It's frustrating, it's long, but that's how it's done because there is no simple solution.
It's just getting dumber by the minute, if you want to convince anyone please respect their intellect at least.
So let's say I have 100 people.
48 will vote for Macron
28 will vote for Le Pen
20 abstain or white vote
4 are unsure to vote Le Pen Macron or abstain/white
If they vote Le Pen
60% for Macron
40% for Le Pen
If they abstain/white
63,16% for Macron
36,84% for Le Pen
If they vote Macron
65% for Macron
35% for Le Pen
This is mathematics, and I'm dragging down the level so low I feel bad about it.
So of course in that context it's in favour of Le Pen because it makes her electorship look bigger relatively but it's not the same at all as voting for Le Pen
And that discussion only happens in the first place because white vote isn't recognized/we ignore abstainers etc.
Any resemblance to the actual results would be a pure coincidence
If I could vote, and If it was LePen versus Mélenchon I would have voted for Mélenchon even if I think his foreign policy ideas are awful - he's objectively much less shitty of a person. The FN being the face of France is yuck. Hillary was far to the left of Trump on many issues and was considered the "useful vote."
LePen's new messaging campaign seems to be working too, since the last FN guy in the thread was trying to see the idea that she wasn't anti-Europe, :lol
Fisico if somehow you predicted that right I'll ship a crate of Belgian beer to your door I'd be so happy
Come on, there are many ways to challenge that. I have a hard time doing it in English, but I've been doing that since Sunday night non stop in french
Puting on the same level people who vote for Le Pen and people who abstain is as stupid as saying they are both equally bad.
I feel like you're trying to throw us off the scent and you're really from the future. Are you from the future?
Come on, there are many ways to challenge that. I have a hard time doing it in English, but I've been doing that since Sunday night non stop in french
Puting on the same level people who vote for Le Pen and people who abstain is as stupid as saying they are both equally bad.
Perhaps there is a lack of nuance on my part, but lets just say they both are harmful, different types of cancer. Voting MLP is Lung Cancer and not voting is Breast Cancer.
Though personally, what I find awful is less the fact that they're not voting, but the kinds of arguments that they put forth. I'm sure there are arguments that could be made to justify their positions, I've yet to see one that has any degree of rigour behind it.
I'm in some Russian agency working closely with Putin in hacking Place Beauvau in time for the 7th May right now.
Alx
Member
Oh well, the silver lining is that neither Macron nor his voters will be complacent now, and consider it an easy win...
I do agree that Macron played it well... on paper. He did follow the right procedure, having discussions with the worker representatives and then meeting the crowd later. Le Pen just highjacked that for the media image, and it may work for her. That's vile, but clever.
Going to see angry strikers was a very bold move anyway, and the risk was obvious ; but hey, you gotta get near the flame to show you're not afraid of burns.
I do agree that Macron played it well... on paper. He did follow the right procedure, having discussions with the worker representatives and then meeting the crowd later. Le Pen just highjacked that for the media image, and it may work for her. That's vile, but clever.
Going to see angry strikers was a very bold move anyway, and the risk was obvious ; but hey, you gotta get near the flame to show you're not afraid of burns.
super-heated plasma
Member
Please learn from what happened in the States by people not voting. Please.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Macron is not great, but if you dislike his reforms you'll have a fair chance at fighting them through the legislative process and the courts. A Le Pen presidency means the fight will have to be taken to the streets.
Hardcore Melenchonites need to take a long hard look at the impact of their choices and make peace with the fact that they won't be voting in a president but getting to chose their next adversary. That's some serious advantage for a political movement that didn't qualify, all things considered.
The lack of strategic thinking from some corners of the left is staggering.
Hardcore Melenchonites need to take a long hard look at the impact of their choices and make peace with the fact that they won't be voting in a president but getting to chose their next adversary. That's some serious advantage for a political movement that didn't qualify, all things considered.
The lack of strategic thinking from some corners of the left is staggering.
Not to defend her as I am strictly against her values, but doesn't she want to have every major decision go through referendum ? That's something Melenchon wanted too I believe.
Meaning the people will actually decide.
Honestly, he handled the crowd pretty well. You could argue that it was all show since one of his strengths has always been to present himself as a pretty good listener, but his exchange with Whirlpool employees felt more valid than Le Pen spending ten minutes taking selfies this morning. Of course, it's way easier for me to say this because I'm not working in this factory and my job is not at risk.
Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order
Member
I'm sorry but we have representative democracy for a reason. Direct democracy is nothing but a one way street to populist extremism.
No harm done! Where's your perfect bubble, out of curiosity?
Sometimes I think they want to fight in the streets cause it's more exciting than politics as usual.
In the past couple of days I've seen quite a lot of former Mélenchon sympathizers and even voters get disgusted by the actions of both Mélenchon and his more hardcore supporters. If this keeps up I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they get way less than 19,58% of the total vote during the legislatives.
If I remember correctly she wants to have "popular initiative referendums" where people would vote if a petition had 500 000 signatures.
GhostTrick
Banned
Thing is, life are potentially threatened by both candidates. As a french myself, my life is threatened by Macron's views on economy and Le Pen's views on my person.
People hopes for blank vote to win so that maybe, we can question the legitimacy of both candidates. People also dont want to vote because it's either rotten apple or shit.
Untrue. I mean unless he cant get a majority, he wants to get everything through ordonnances to get the process fast and without getting people on streets by doing it in July.
Can you expand on this a bit? I feel like people need to travel more, we have a lot of room to spare on the right economically before we get to the level of countries like the US or Chile.
Is Macron an ultra-liberal banker who will eat you and your kids for dinner, or Hollande Bis? He certainly can't be both at the same time.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Macron killed my dog.
Of course they will get less than this. Mélenchon scored what he did thanks to left-wing Hamon defectors and Ecologists. We weren't represented well in this election but we didn't simply vanish.
Lol. I think Macron's approach will work in the long run for him. He does need better PR, but if he does well in the upcoming debate I think he will win by at least 20 points.
GhostTrick
Banned
Did I said he was an Hollande bis ?
Sure I can expand more, when we're talking about someone claiming it's better to work 70 hours to get paid the same as regular 35 hours with Uber rather than not working and getting paid with RSA, I can see where that person is coming from.
Yeah, I can totally see what's planned here:
Be flexible, more and more. Work more for less. Our french system is our pride. It's protecting workers. Macron believes that we should be more flexible. That the labour code should be between employees and employers, as if they'd have the power to strike a decent deal. As if negociations would be even wheb in the end it'll be "sign or gtfo".
I can totally see what's the plan here when he claims "we'll make a lot of formations for unemployed people" as if it'll fix anything. If Macron believes that you can change your career at 50 to a new job with no experience, just thanks to a formation... The guy's pretty clueless.
So yes, I can see why people are relunctant to vote for Macron. And while I'll never vote for Le Pen, you must understand that it's also not easy to vote for that guy.
This is why I hate Le Pen getting into the 2nd turn: It's Macrok by default.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
The move she pulled today really shows how weak Macron's support is, and how he can pretty much only lose support onward. He meets with union leaders, she shows up outside and meets with the workers and tells them she is the workers defender while Macron is an establishment neoliberal.
If she wins it won't be by a lot, but Macron has to make a move to keep his support and aim at establishing pro-workers economic policies, which is probably too late. His turnout numbers will be what costs him the presidency. It's no surprise Melanchon got so much support, there is a real desire for leftward economic policies, but in the absence of that don't count on fear of MLP to bring in voters.
If she wins it won't be by a lot, but Macron has to make a move to keep his support and aim at establishing pro-workers economic policies, which is probably too late. His turnout numbers will be what costs him the presidency. It's no surprise Melanchon got so much support, there is a real desire for leftward economic policies, but in the absence of that don't count on fear of MLP to bring in voters.
Alx
Member
If it's not better than RSA, why are Uber drivers doing it ?
GhostTrick
Banned
Macron has to stop thinking he's going to win by default. He cant double down on his most harsh positions.
Why are Uber drivers so pissed off now ?
Because when they signed for it, it wasnt the same. Because they hope it's a temporary position and because the income is higher.
There's also the fact that some people wont make the best decision either. I mean, I could say if Uber is the better solution, why isnt everyone with RSA become a Uber driver ?
People dont always make sense either. Why are factory workers so against the universal revenue when you tell them labour may disappear someday because of the machines ?
I don't think she will win. She has way to many negatives for this move to even help her much. She is no trump. Macron does need to stop resting on his laurels and try to make sure he campaigns as hard as possible so le pen can lose by a huge margin.
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