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Pacific Rim and the sword [Spoilers]

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Jackpot

Banned
Why not simply mount the special anti-Kaiju missiles on conventional delivery systems? They were used as killing blows in the film.

I don't think toxicity is the reason as they sliced the bird one in half over the city whilst in the lower atmosphere. It'll have a much wider dispersal range then.
 

cntr

Banned
So we can't use rockets and artillery etc to kill the kaiju because too much blood will be spilled. Instead, we'll use a team of robots where one chops it up and the other fires magical cauterizing rockets and artillery at it, or use another robot that fires special rockets that cauterizes the wounds it causes in some special way. Let's not use these special cauterizing rockets in our jets and artillery though.

You are correct, the movie is not dumb at all.
well I doubt you'll give a shit about this explanation, but in case other people care

Striker's rockets pierce the kaiju, then create a forward-facing blast. The heat seals the wound, and the explosion damages the kaiju's internals.

They require a lot of force to be able to pierce the kaiju skin, so they have to be launched at point blank range. Since Jaegers were already a normal thing when these missiles were invented, they simply put them on Striker Eureka.
 

Firemind

Member
It's a dumb film because they tried to defeat the kaiju by punching them. Also the scientist and Ron Perlman subplot. Also the trauma flashback. Also the escape sequence. Also the sexual tension.
 

Hystzen

Member
One thing people forgetting is that the Kaiju adapt so all this super cool tech people listing be useless soon.

It why the 3 main jaegers got wrecked in Hong Kong the Kaiju used ambushes and then EMP due to them adapting to how the Jaegers been killing past Kaiju.
 

Tapiozona

Banned
well I doubt you'll give a shit about this explanation, but in case other people care

Striker's rockets pierce the kaiju, then create a forward-facing blast. The heat seals the wound, and the explosion damages the kaiju's internals.

They require a lot of force to be able to pierce the kaiju skin, so they have to be launched at point blank range. Since Jaegers were already a normal thing when these missiles were invented, they simply put them on Striker Eureka.

Lot of force so point blank range makes no sense. You could use hypersonic weapons to do the same from across continents. It's not like a missile is faster within 100 foot range. If anything distance helps build the kinetic energy necessary.
 

cntr

Banned
Except that technology is far more believable, reachable, and grounded in reality than giant 300 foot robots piloted by 2 humans, in a virtual brain sync.

Besides, we already pretty much have similar technology today and it would be far more effective than the stupid rockets on the Australian's chest. It'd also have 10 times the kinetic energy and the ability to attach explosive payloads compared to rocket punches.
Yes, so? I'm simply saying they have an in-universe reason for not using orbital weapons, instead of completely ignoring it. That has nothing to do with whether it's completely plausible in real life.

It's about whether the internal universe is consistent and thought out. Not whether it's possible in real life. I don't care about the latter, it's a fuckin mecha show, so I'm explaining the former.
 

Tapiozona

Banned
Yes, so? I'm simply saying they have an in-universe reason for not using orbital weapons, instead of completely ignoring it. That has nothing to do with whether it's completely plausible in real life.

You're trying to defend the absurdity/stupidity of the movie and when plausible alternatives are offered your response is "so"? The in-universe is our universe. Missiles, and current technology exist in that universe.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
That the sword is a new piece of equipment the original pilot wouldn't know about is pretty obvious, and doesn't take a lot of fan theorizing to point out.

I think the problem is that the movie is sloppily written in terms of what's shown on the screen, regardless of how well the lore is worked out behind the scenes. It has a poor balance between the Rule of Cool and creating suspension of disbelief. Like the infamous line about Gypsy Danger being "analog" because it has a nuclear reactor. This line is in there because it's a classic anime reference (Giant Robo OVA) which is simultaneously cool yet makes the writer look ignorant because of how it is used.

Similarly, the surprise sword is probably meant to evoke the super robot anime trope that everything else fails until the robot's giant sword weapon is formed, which one shots the enemy monster. (... in every battle. Why not use the sword first?) But it comes across as a little too stupid in a film with so much detailed exposition in other ways.
 
All that on top of being a catalogue of every generic action movie trope.

For all the talent Del Toro supposedly has, the movie was aggressively cliched.

Del Toro was forced to try and make Evangelion and other big robot anime tropes into a more consumable and mainstream live action movie.

I don't blame him for having to pander to the lowest common denominator.

If he went all the way pure Eva as an example, I think the movie would've done so much worse.

Nobody would've gone to see Jaeger pilots losing their shit and being unfunctional human beings.
 

cntr

Banned
You're trying to defend the absurdity/stupidity of the movie and when plausible alternatives are offered your response is "so"? The in-universe is our universe. Missiles, and current technology exist in that universe.
Yes, it's absurd. I like it that way. What I'm objecting to is people saying it's not thought out. It's fine for sci-fi writers to ignore real life stuff if it'll break the premise. This is not the same as deciding that they'll use nothing from real life or ignore consistency.

When people imagine "orbital weapon", they think of giant satellites that shoot down giant pieces of metal. Not whatever weird experimental weapon you posted. Do you expect sci-fi writers to subscribe to websites about the latest military tech so that they don't get people complaining?

This discussion is in terms of the movie's universe, and what technological justifications it uses. Using technology as your plot-device is not grounds to come rushing in and acting like it should be 100% realistic. Heck, if we did that, I'd have to say that the plasma cannons are bullshit, because plasma disperses in the atmosphere.
 
The walls were supposed to be dumb. The losing war has destroyed the moral and economy of the world. The politicians created the wall as an excuse that they were doing things, even if it wouldn't work -- they had given up on winning.

No like, it's so dumb because the length of the pacific coastline is such that nobody would have ever even proposed something so outrageous. That would 135,663 kilometers of kaiju-proof reinforced walls, or 84,297 miles for those using imperial units. If we conservatively assume that you only need to protect 30% of the coastline, because Kaiju are fundamentally lazy and only use direct approaches to targets, that would mean building a wall the length of the entire circumference of the planet Earth. And not any old war designed to keep the mongols out, a wall that is so tall that 100 meter+, 3000+ ton monsters can't break through it.

I guess the fact that this was the "easy" alternative, the equivalent of the government alt tabbing into a spreadsheet to make it look like they were doing work when their boss walked past speaks to how utterly, laughably absurd the Jeager solution actually is. The largest construction project in the history of humanity is what you've done just to waste time and boost morale? LOL ok. Whatever you say.

All of the world building and explanation that has been provided to explain why the only viable solution is to build the world's most indulgent rockem sockem robots are mere band-aids on the stupidity. An actual solution would involve an interlocking series of defenses, early warning stations, huge heavy lift aircraft firing specially built munitions. The same stupid-arse rockets that the mechs shoot maybe? Or even bigger? Flexible, responsive, and much cheaper. Plant giant arse, super heavy duty undersea mines. Plant 5 kilotonne underwater mines above the damned spawn point. The pacific ocean is unfathomably large, we can write off a few dozen kilometers of it to keep us safe indefinitely. The Jeagers are a monumentally wasteful and inefficient solution to something which is, itself, a monumentally wasteful and inefficient mode of conquering something. The precursors are threatening not because they are ingenious, or because of their high level of technology. They're threatening because the script says they're allowed to have infinite monsters and just keep sending them through forever, at an accelerating rate. I think we can all agree that this is basically cheating.

This doesn't make Pacific Rim a "bad movie". However, it is indeed very dumb.


They require a lot of force to be able to pierce the kaiju skin, so they have to be launched at point blank range.

You do understand that it's normal for a cruise missile to break the sound barrier, right? That's a lot of force. If you strap a rocket motor you can go even faster.
 

Jackpot

Banned
It why the 3 main jaegers got wrecked in Hong Kong the Kaiju used ambushes and then EMP due to them adapting to how the Jaegers been killing past Kaiju.

I liked how they labelled Gipsy as immune because it's "analogue" when it was clearly not. Analogue means it's all mechanical, not electrical. So a switch you press actually has to pull on something that moves something else to produce the effect it has rather than sending a signal to a computer.
 

Opto

Banned
The sword was kept as a backup because it's fucking cool when something flashes SWORD and the SWORD happens
 
You do understand that it's normal for a cruise missile to break the sound barrier, right? That's a lot of force. If you strap a rocket motor you can go even faster.

7ULJGMl.gif


An example of a ship being hit by a supersonic anti-ship missile.
 

PnCIa

Member
Fuck logic. The movie was awesome. Actually the best giant monster action movie since ages, that shity Godzilla movie couldnt hold a candle against Pacific Rim.
 

jackal27

Banned
They referenced earlier in the episode that Gypsy has had some new modifications. I don't think they either knew about it yet OR it was kind of a last resort, up close and personal type weapon.

Other than that, it's just a Voltron/Power Rangers reference to how they never pull out the one-hit sword until the very end of the fight.
 
Never thought of it, when I think of PR and a problem with a sword, I think about that boat used as sword. I mean they were lucky to find a boat made of adamantium.

The cinema i was in went absolutely crazy when the boatsword was used, tho. Was the perfect combination of stupid and awesome.
 

blakep267

Member
For people saying the rail gun option is dumb, do you not realize that 300 foot robots are even more preposterous and actually don't work very well. To the point where there are only a handful left. Equipping a satellite is much more realistic and effective

Heck it'd be more efficient to make 30 high tech fighter jets that could fire special missiles than to build giant robots. At least in anime, they don't try and rationalize it. Gundam has big robots for fighting made from space metal. It's just how it is

And even if robots are a must, at least give them swords that have nuclear reactors inside them that cauterize wounds on impact. That should be the standard for all jaegars. The fists were doing literally nothing
 

Mxrz

Member
Uh. Why would you not tell the pilot about a new weapon? That thing isn't made out of magical pixie dust and the hopes of children, thing has to weigh a few tons.Which is going to mess with any sort of equilibrium and balance when it comes to moving around, especially for something bipedal.

So, Pacific Rim is a dumb movie, right?
Very much so. Doesn't mean it wasn't fun.
 

Fury451

Banned
It's really weird that this topic is here, because I was just having this conversation with someone yesterday. I gave the exact same explanation to my friend as is in the OP.

Wouldn't have known about it because he was out of the game for so long, and Gipsy was basically scrap The last time he saw it. It makes sense that they had some new features to it, and that he be unfamiliar with them.

Uh. Why would you not tell the pilot about a new weapon? That thing isn't made out of magical pixie dust and the hopes of children, thing has to weigh a few tons.Which is going to mess with any sort of equilibrium and balance when it comes to moving around, especially for something bipedal.

Gipsy was basically deployed in an emergency as a last resort - they really weren't ready and didn't have time to fully brief him on all of the new things before they rushed out to support the other pilots. It was supposed to be grounded because they were worried about their ability to pilot together to begin with after the plasma cannon almost went off in docking, so really it makes perfect sense.
 

Xero

Member
I cant beleive people are trying to explain why the movie shouldnt have had big fucking robots when its a movie about big fucking robots. Heres a clue guys it will never in any medium make more sense to make giant robots to help fight something over more streamlined means. The point is judt to accept it or why are you watching something with giant robots in it. I swear you guys over analyse the shit out of everything.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
The movie definitely would have been more enjoyable if it was two hours of a fully functioning society occasionally sending a team out to replace massive underwater mines after they once again successfully halted another kaiju spawn.
 

cntr

Banned
No like, it's so dumb because the length of the pacific coastline is such that nobody would have ever even proposed something so outrageous. [snip]
Yeah, I agree. They made the project too obviously dumb, so dumb that we can't believe it happened in-universe. They should've done something else.

You do understand that it's normal for a cruise missile to break the sound barrier, right? That's a lot of force. If you strap a rocket motor you can go even faster.

Fair point.

I can honestly say I never considered anything in that film to that extent. Big dumb robots knocking the shite out of monsters, all I need.
One of the strange things is that unlike modern summer movies where everything is explained in dialogue, Pacific Rim relies on visuals to explain shit. Extra weird because the dialogue itself wasn't that special, though I personally liked it.

Uh. Why would you not tell the pilot about a new weapon? That thing isn't made out of magical pixie dust and the hopes of children, thing has to weigh a few tons.Which is going to mess with any sort of equilibrium and balance when it comes to moving around, especially for something bipedal.
Well, you know that test run Raleigh and Mako were doing? They weren't just going to wave their arms around, they were planning on explaining Gipsy's new features hands on to Raleigh there. But Mako fucked that up, and then Gipsy was grounded.

Still, it is a bit weird that Raleigh didn't get something like a small CHANGE LOG booklet on the Gipsy changes, so it doesn’t quite work.

I cant beleive people are trying to explain why the movie shouldnt have had big fucking robots when its a movie about big fucking robots. Heres a clue guys it will never in any medium make more sense to make giant robots to help fight something over more streamlined means. The point is judt to accept it or why are you watching something with giant robots in it. I swear you guys over analyse the shit out of everything.
Yeah. Don't take it as "what would justify giant robots", but "if giant robots were real and worked, what would it be like?".
 

pantsmith

Member
Just saw Pacific Rim this evening, and I had no idea that people were so adamant about not liking it.

Its a freaking love letter to the genre.

Nothing about giant robots is plausible (not to mention a sustainable use of resources), nor is anything about interdimensional aliens invading from a wormhole at the bottom of the Pacific. What you can do is acknowledge how insane the genre is and play appropriate homage to its tropes - which the movie does with a huge grin.

I thought there was just enough world building to make it feel like hey, here is this weird trajectory where robots fist fighting monsters makes sense. It has to, because if it didnnt we wouldnt get a kaiju movie. This thread reinforced that there was some thought behind all those little details, no matter how crazy they sound.

I'd rather have another Paul Blart than another Pacific Rim movie tbh.

Every time a punch connected in Pacific Rim, I couldnt help but stop and marvel at how much weight that punch had. It was a triumph of not just art and animation, but also the framing of each shot, the superb sound design, and the attention to detail in the physicality.

The quality of Pacific Rim versus the throwaway trash comedy in Paul Blart just isnt even comparable.
 

Blues1990

Member
Just saw Pacific Rim this evening, and I had no idea that people were so adamant about not liking it.

Its a freaking love letter to the genre.

Nothing about giant robots is plausible (not to mention a sustainable use of resources), nor is anything about interdimensional aliens invading from a wormhole at the bottom of the Pacific. What you can do is acknowledge how insane the genre is and play appropriate homage to its tropes - which the movie does with a huge grin.
Yeah, I couldn't wrap my head around with people severely disliking this movie. I thought it was a kick ass movie that hit all the right beats for me.
 
This is a really good explanation of something that bothers people for reasons I don't understand. Pacific Rim is such a fun movie and people overlooking it because of stuff like this makes me sad.

When I saw the movie in theater and the sword was first brought out, there was this guy in the back who stood up and shouted "Fuck Yeah" with so much hype. He understood at least.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
There's a much simpler explanation.

2013-07-29.jpg


Yeah, I couldn't wrap my head around with people severely disliking this movie. I thought it was a kick ass movie that hit all the right beats for me.

I am loathe to use an explanation so often used to defend actual shitty movies like Transformers or what have you, but "They hate fun" really is what it comes down to, as far as I can tell. I mean if you're nitpicking tech explanations or plot holes in a Tokusatsu tribute film, you're already miles off in the wrong direction to start with.
 

Chichikov

Member
You can always explain movies after the fact (it was all dream/nanomachines did it, there you go), that's not really the point, the point as that when people go "wait, why didn't they use the sword before?" it take them out of the movie, and that's a problem.
Though to be honest, it didn't bother me *that* much, like I think it could've been handled better but whatever, that fight was the best part of the movie anyway.

My issues with Pacific Rim is not that it's "dumb", but that it's boring for long stretches, got bad characters and that a lot of the fights were not that fun.
 

Surface of Me

I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
I hate it when nerds try to say a SciFi movie is bad because it emphasizes Fiction over Science. Grow up, nerds.
 

LiK

Member
i distinctly remember a movie podcast mentioned this. it was in a n official tie-in comic book. altho i wish they explained this int he actual movie. they had plenty of time to do that.
 

cntr

Banned
I hate it when nerds try to say a SciFi movie is bad because it emphasizes Fiction over Science. Grow up, nerds.
A lot of popular sci-fi, particularly ones that started the genre, prided themselves in being "hard sci-fi" -- based on real science, real tech, etc etc. I personally like hard sci-fi -- it's a fun challenge to research the science, and many of the stories are great.

Unfortunately, then you get assholes who think that hardness is the be-all end-all of good fiction.
 

Chichikov

Member
I hate it when nerds try to say a SciFi movie is bad because it emphasizes Fiction over Science. Grow up, nerds.
I don't think there were many people who expected a giant robots vs. giant monsters movie to be a hard sci-fi, I think you misrepresent the criticism of this film, at least the majority of it.
 

cntr

Banned
I don't think there were many people who expected a giant robots vs. giant monsters movie to be a hard sci-fi, I think you misrepresent the criticism of this film, at least the majority of it.
Given that a lot of people say "Why didn't they just nuke it instead of implausible giant robots?" as a criticism...
 

Chichikov

Member
Given that a lot of people say "Why didn't they just nuke it instead of implausible giant robots?" as a criticism...
That's a silly criticism in my mind.
I don't think that what bothered most people, like, I get it that there are people who just don't care about the premise of giant robots fighting giant monsters, but I can tell to you personally that I like the premise, I was excited about the movie and I was very very disappointed.
And it wasn't because it wasn't scientifically accurate.
 
Nope. Still dumb.

This is wrong, btw
The Jaegers, however, can physically restrain kaiju, keeping them away from cities, and use blunt force to inflict damage without spilling blood.

So the entire post is about not using swords normally because their blood is too toxic. But to kill through punches and blunt damage, they have to make damage so severe, basically crushing them, that blood still would spill on.
Imagine hitting someone with metal gloves repetitively, with the objective of killing them. Do you think blood wouldn't flow?
 

cntr

Banned
So the entire post is about not using swords normally because their blood is too toxic. But to kill through punches and blunt damage, they have to make damage so severe, basically crushing them, that blood still would spill on.
Imagine hitting someone with metal gloves repetitively, with the objective of killing them. Do you think blood wouldn't flow?
Do you really think punching, no matter how bad, is going to produce anywhere near as much blood as chopping someone up?

Incidentally, some people have said elsewhere that a lot of blood is being shown spilt in the movie, citing the Leatherback fight. But that's not true.

Look at the fight. When Gipsy blasts it with the plasma cannon, you get huge gaping wounds...and nowhere near the amount of blood wounds of that size would produce. There's some blood, sure, but relatively minor. This might be hard to see clearly in the movie, because the wounds glow the same color as the blood.
 
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