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[Cipherr]

Not to mention they are ignoring the sometimes $70 or even $80 games seen during the snes-N64 era

Its hard for me to recall the prices I was paying prior to the PS1 gen, it was so damn long ago, but the bolded, that shit actually happened, and I remember it clearly.

The N64 games specifically, paying over $80 after taxes for a game near launch.

However...... that is burned into my memory, because at that time, I clearly recognized how absolutely absurd paying $80 for a game was. So I guess that can be seen either way.

 

[Papercuts]

Has anyone thought this isn't Capcom's fault?

If they had it there way, I'm sure they would send the game out ASAP with a good base number of character, then work on DLC. But because Microsoft and Sony have rules on how many times you can update a game, they are forced to do this. Same reason Team Fortress 2 was abandoned on the 360.

If everyone used to Steam for fighting games, we wouldn't be having this argument.

That...what?

It wasn't about the amount of updates, it was the size. TF2 would be huge to add all the class updates and maps. That also has nothing to do with having 12 complete characters locked on the disc ready on release, they clearly already worked on DLC awhile ago.

If ANYTHING, it might be because of Sony moneyhats and the Vita holding them back. But Capcom wasn't "forced" to do this.

 

[Kadey]

I'll gladly put more money towards a game I know I'll make the most of. Gamers have been spoiled for years, it's payback time for publishers and developers. LOL.

 

[kayos90]

I'll gladly put more money towards a game I know I'll make the most of. Gamers have been spoiled for years, it's payback time for publishers and developers. LOL.

Rofl what? This is the stupidest comment I've heard.

 

[Kadey]

Stupiest isn't even a word.

 

[CountAntonius]

lol.

 

[kayos90]

Stupiest isn't even a word.

Going after credibility instead of explaining yourself? Lovely.

 

[jbug617]

Jeff from Giantbomb had an interesting answer when asked about this and he brought up the situation about Mortal Kombat DLC and said that basically to see the DLC characters online (if you didn't buy them) you had to download a compatibility pack (which ended up being a problem according to him). Maybe with the characters on the disc it would avoid that problem.

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

How did we get to the point where we have people defending the gaming industry for taking stances like:

1) Sell games and buy used games and if you do, you are a huge asshole.
2) You don't actually own the games you buy
3) Cheat codes and hidden characters are something you pay for

And should you DARE complain about these things, you are an entitled whiny piece of shit.

I understand that the cost of developing a game is going up and they are riskier propositions now than they used to be back in 1994 or even 2004 but at no point does it every occur to people that the people who complain about these things aren't the same as the dudes who count every single pixel and go apeshit if it isn't 720p?

 

[kayos90]

Jeff from Giantbomb had an interesting answer when asked about this and he brought up the situation about Mortal Kombat DLC and said that basically to see the DLC characters online (if you didn't buy them) you had to download a compatibility pack (which ended up being a problem according to him). Maybe with the characters on the disc it would avoid that problem.

What about Blazblue? Didn't you have to download the characters?

 

[Reknoc]

Jeff from Giantbomb had an interesting answer when asked about this and he brought up the situation about Mortal Kombat DLC and said that basically to see the DLC characters online (if you didn't buy them) you had to download a compatibility pack (which ended up being a problem according to him). Maybe with the characters on the disc it would avoid that problem.

I believe Capcom said this in their press release thing. Though they used the costumes as an example instead.

 

[The Return of]

Jeff from Giantbomb had an interesting answer when asked about this and he brought up the situation about Mortal Kombat DLC and said that basically to see the DLC characters online (if you didn't buy them) you had to download a compatibility pack (which ended up being a problem according to him). Maybe with the characters on the disc it would avoid that problem.

Did they mention any reason why MK team couldn't patch the compatiblity pack in instead of offering it on the PSN store?

I could see that being a huge flaw for sure, imagine spending money on those characters and you can't use them online a lot of the times because people didn't download the free pack.

 

[etiolate]

Games on discs are not a service. They are a product. You don't just bend over and take it from companies people.

 

[CountAntonius]

How did we get to the point where we have people defending the gaming industry for taking stances like:

1) Sell games and buy used games and if you do, you are a huge asshole.
2) You don't actually own the games you buy
3) Cheat codes and hidden characters are something you pay for

And should you DARE complain about these things, you are an entitled whiny piece of shit.

I understand that the cost of developing a game is going up and they are riskier propositions now than they used to be back in 1994 or even 2004 but at no point does it every occur to people that the people who complain about these things aren't the same as the dudes who count every single pixel and go apeshit if it isn't 720p?

Hyperbole is being thrown in both directions. People were comparing Capcom customers to beaten wives earlier.

I'm in here to explain my point of view and why this doesn't make me angry. People are free to feel differently but these threads get stupid and depressing when people need to start insulting others by calling them idiots or whiny cause they don't share their opinions. A great discussion can be had if people just relaxed a bit.

 

[kayos90]

Hyperbole is being thrown in both directions. People were comparing Capcom customers to beaten wives earlier.

I'm in here to explain my point of view and why this doesn't make me angry. People are free to feel differently but these threads get stupid and depressing when people need to start insulting others by calling them idiots or whiny cause they don't share their opinions. A great discussion can be had if people just relaxed a bit.

The user's a junior member. Secondly, the average person doesn't understand the idea of a "discussion." Peopl have to go to college and take a rhetoric class. That's PROPER discussion for you.

 

[Hydrogen Bluebird]

Games on discs are not a service. They are a product. You don't just bend over and take it from companies people.

This. Besides, if these characters we're on the disc, that means they could have been included in the full game/ gold master version.

 

[etiolate]

Just wondering where is the Skylanders version of this thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460182&highlight=skylanders+vile

hi

 

[Papercuts]

What about Blazblue? Didn't you have to download the characters?

Yeah, but the hooks were built in. People examined the disc and got the character select art, but the characters themselves weren't present(Makoto partially was, but wasn't close to done).

I suppose MK didn't have these hooks and needed to use those compatibility patches.

 

[Apath]

I'm not so sure why the assumption that all of the characters on disc are only available because they decided to invest in DLC is acceptable, but the idea that these characters were removed from the game for the sake of DLC isn't.

We do not know the inner workings of the company. Who is to say one way or the other? Certainly not the developers.

 

[etiolate]

When you sit around, worshiping a company on the internet all day, it makes them feel free to do this sort of thing.

Just sayin

 

[Nilaul]

Nintendo can create a fighting game with a rooster of 35+, deeper then other fighting games and not charge a single dime for locked stuff. Its on the disk, its yours. You brought it.

No game should have stuff locked away on a disk you brought. In my opinion there should be never any content withheld from the final release for purpose of making a dlc. Even if its gets cut out last minute because its not ready (then one should delay the game then). The way most DLC are used is completely unethical to me (its not ethical to the buyer nor to the fans, its could even be called a scam).

I mean whatever happened to making the best game possible? I mean isnt it every developer's dream to make the best game in the world? Locking away characters for money on disks doesnt help this.

 

[The Return of]

lol, who is truly worshiping capgods in this thread though

 

[Slamtastic]

Nintendo can create a fighting game with a rooster of 35+, deeper then other fighting games

then why haven't they

 

[BruiserBear]

When you sit around, worshiping a company on the internet all day, it makes them feel free to do this sort of thing.

Just sayin

and then when you buy this DLC, you REALLY encourage them to do this sort of thing. Which is exactly what a lot of people will do.

 

[robotzombie]

I'm not so sure why the assumption that all of the characters on disc are only available because they decided to invest in DLC is acceptable, but the idea that these characters were removed from the game for the sake of DLC isn't.

We do not know the inner workings of the company. Who is to say one way or the other? Certainly not the developers.

Because it is much more logical for a company to have all of these things planned out and budgeted accordingly as opposed to them creating a game in a normal development cycle and then saying, "aha! Let us taketh away that which we have created in order to reap more reward later!" It just does not seem reasonable from a business perspective. If they weren't going to charge people for those extra characters, they wouldn't have made them and we would have simply settled for a 38 character roster.

And the problem isn't the people laying out the assumption, it's that the other side refuses to even acknowledge the idea that that assumption actually has some validity, whether or not it is definitely the case in this specific situation. People are just screaming that Capcom is raping people and that anyone who buys this game is an asshole, it's childish.

 

[Hero]

This is honestly your response to all this? You really couldn't be bothered to actually come up with a single rational counterpoint?

1. You SHOULD care how Capcom saves or makes money and how they make their business decisions. The more efficiently streamlined and budgeted their development cycle, the better product you are going to get. This is the case for any business.

2. Where is the exploitation? They told you you get 38 characters for $60. You get to make your decision based on whether or not that is worth your while. They never lied to their customers. If they want to sell extra characters, it doesn't matter how they do it. They never suggested you would be getting those characters for the $60 you spent originally. No one is forcing anyone to buy this game or its DLC

3. Your response to my quote is honestly laughable. There isn't even anything to latch on to in order to continue an intelligent conversation. You completely missed the point and then incorrectly and arrogantly responded with empty words. This really makes you sound like a spoiled child.

No, I don't care about Capcom's business model or inner workings as a company. The only thing I care about is the product they are trying to sell. Them figuring out how to maximize profitability is their concern, not mine. I love how you say 'better product.' Wouldn't SFxTekken with 50/50 characters right from the get-go be the very definition of a better product?

Just because they didn't lie doesn't excuse the fact that they're exploiting and selling you pieces of a product you own. I'm sorry that you you don't understand this but apparently you enjoy paying extra money for something you already bought.

You said it mattered to you when it was made. This is an explanation of why it was made when it was.



Who said I'm defending them? I'm explaining how this works. I'm trying to enlighten close-minded people on the whole picture so they stop and think before crying bloody murder. Take the data, determine its value, and make a purchase decision. I don't like having to spend extra money to get the full cast of completed characters. I canceled a PS3 order, in fact, for that very reason.



Absolutely. I also remember that during that same time similar technology to sell DLC was not available. I'd bet companies would behave no differently if they could do the same back then.

...and every company wants to "exploit" me. Gas, electric, phone, cable, sports leagues, etc...That's what companies do- they to get me to spend money. I'm not saying I like it, but I'm also not saying they OWE their services to me.



ok fair enough, bad example, but you should get the general idea.



Not sure where you got the starving employee thing from. What I'm trying to get across is that businesses spend money to create specific products for certain expected returns.

They don't necessarily owe it but for a company that pretty much lives or dies on the massive fanbase they've built up they have shown a considerable amount of anti-consumerism this generation.

Their explanation is that they don't want to have to release a SUPER or ULTIMATE version of the game but what the truth is here is that they actually already did. Your 60 dollar purchase is for the vanilla game. Pay an extra 20 (or whatever they're going to charge for it) to make it SUPER/ULTIMATE even though all the data is already on the disc. You can't even say that this is acceptable in any other industry because it isn't.

Also neither of you have responded to what the fighting game community should be doing because now pirates are going to have months of experience with the DLC characters since they're actually complete and on the disc.

 

[Nilaul]

then why haven't they

Brawl (36 characters)

 

[etiolate]

This is a way to increase the cost of games through unlocks and withheld content and it's done in a shady manner as to hide that which is happening.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Jeff from Giantbomb had an interesting answer when asked about this and he brought up the situation about Mortal Kombat DLC and said that basically to see the DLC characters online (if you didn't buy them) you had to download a compatibility pack (which ended up being a problem according to him). Maybe with the characters on the disc it would avoid that problem.

That might seem likely, except that CAPCOM has already pulled this off with SSF4's update that did not require buying AE.

So from their own history and most likely very near or even the same codebase, such a scenario seems unlikely. Sure, it could still occur, but the previous case suggests that it should not be an unknown factor.

Previewing the characters and avoiding problems with multiplayer might seem likely though. Still, that does kind of leave players with a lot of content they cannot access but other players can use, basically forcing any proper player to a must-buy in order to compete.

If this is why they are on the disk, it would have been possible to simply cut down the news with the truth and a well aimed PR campaign. That would have been acceptable to all parties.

As far as this thread has shown, such a act on their end has not been performed, allowing speculations and fears to run wild. I see little need to defend this as a consumer (understanding from a corporate / producer end is different, and -imo- mutual exclusive with the consumer opposite), as it isn't my job to inform myself of why X being done. That's what PR does, and I'm not seeing it here.

 

[Nilaul]

It could get worse though...

If you want to play the real ending and truly complete resident evil 6, you have to pay 20 dollars.

 

[The Return of]

That might seem likely, except that CAPCOM has already pulled this off with SSF4's update that did not require buying AE.

Huh? I'm pretty sure people who have SSF4 cannot see Yan, Yung, Oni, or Evil Ryu unless they purchase AE. Correct me if I'm wrong though

 

[bishoptl]

then why haven't they

 

[njr]

I've made my decision since Super Street Fighter IV was out to just buy any Capcom game used. So long as we still have the option to do that (not counting an online pass in this case), it's a lot better than doing nothing about it and directly funding them your money.

 

[jbug617]

Huh? I'm pretty sure people who have SSF4 cannot see Yan, Yung, Oni, or Evil Ryu unless they purchase AE. Correct me if I'm wrong though

Your right. If the person you play doesn't have AE it reverts to Super.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Brawl (36 characters)

You said fighting games though, you should list some that Nintendo have made.

 

[Agent X]

I'm going to try to analyze and present both points of view here. I haven't read the whole thread, so it's possible others might have mentioned some of these points already.

On one hand, I don't like the notion that there are characters hidden away on the disc that will later be offered up as "downloadable content". It's scary when you think that games are starting to become DLC traps, as if they were "incomplete" and that consumers would be required to pay a few dollars more in the future to make the game "complete". Like Nilaul said earlier, it makes me miss the days when developers used to strive to make the best game possible right from the beginning. DLC should be something that's developed later as a response to customer feedback and demands, not something squirreled away for the future.

On the other hand, there's the possibility that these characters are only partially developed, and aren't ready for prime time. One possibility is that the data for the character models and preliminary move sets is on the discs, but the developers haven't fine-tuned the character balance in relation to the other existing characters. Capcom may have figured that the game (minus the hidden DLC characters) is "fine" as it is, and that it's a "complete" game even without the existence of the DLC characters...but some time in the future, they may finish up those characters and their balancing, and release them as DLC at that point.

As a consumer, I would like to receive the "complete" game up front. I still don't like "on-disc DLC" and have a difficult time supporting it, no matter what the reason for it is. That said, if the "on-disc DLC" represents incomplete character data, then I wouldn't be opposed to the developers "completing" them and releasing a download pack in the future...but the pack should be free or very inexpensive. I know people have mentioned budgeting for the possibility of future DLC, but this goes back to the notion that games of this nature should be "complete" in the first place, and not rely on pre-planned DLC to carry it in the future. The game's longevity (in sales as well as gameplay) should come naturally from gamers wishing to push their skills and techniques to new heights, not because of the possibility that there might be some kind of expansion in the future.

 

[Lulubop]

Is Cole on the 360 disc? Wouldn't that be funny.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Huh? I'm pretty sure people who have SSF4 cannot see Yan, Yung, Oni, or Evil Ryu unless they purchase AE. Correct me if I'm wrong though

I wouldn't know for online play.
I do know they are grayed out on the selection screen of Versus mode, so I just assumed the models are already present in the update, just not unlocked.

I never got around to buying AE. 15 euros for four characters and balancing seemed at bit pricey on XBL.

edit: I see it was already answered.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Once upon a time, we got full 100% game, and gamers were happy.

And then they began to cut 10% to be sold as DLC, and gamers were still happy.

Then they began to cut 20% to be sold as DLC, and the gamers were still happy.

Then they started to cut 30% to be sold as DLC, and the gamers were still happy.

In the future, they will cut even 50% of the game to be sold as DLC, and the gamers are still going to be happy.

Why are the gamers are still happy?

Because they are told that the cut games are still 100%. Who told them that? Why, the game publishers, of course. "It's a difficult industry," says the EA executive, "We're not making money at all with all of our games, so please understand." "Yes, we need to do this otherwise we are going to be bankrupt" says the Capcom man in the suit.

"Our games do not have DLCs and yet we still manage to become the most profitable video game company in the world, and our software sales are awesome," says the Nintendo guy, but nobody is going to listen to Nintendo guy. Poor Nintendo guy.

But gamers will still be happy anyway. Since they believe the explanation of the EA and Capcom executives. "Poor executives," we said, "If we are not buying their DLCs, they are not going to make enough money to pay their employees!" Thus no matter how much game content they cut, we will simply nod our head and say "Okay!"

That way we can all still be happy. And look at those snazzy executives: they must be a honest group of people who are doing it for the sake of video gaming community.

Those saintly angels.

 

[Riposte]

Are we going to pretend future Nintendo games won't have DLC? Hello Fire Emblem.

 

[Hero]

Are we going to pretend future Nintendo games won't have DLC? Hello Fire Emblem.

Except Fire Emblem has free DLC for the first month when the game comes out. They're new in this territory and if they get greedy you can be sure people will be pissed at it.

Let's stop trying to shift attention from the company in question.

 

[Nilaul]

You said fighting games though, you should list some that Nintendo have made.

Isnt brawl a fighting game?

 

[narcosis219]

Once upon a time, we got full 100% game, and gamers were happy.

And then they began to cut 10% to be sold as DLC, and gamers were still happy.

Then they began to cut 20% to be sold as DLC, and the gamers were still happy.

Then they started to cut 30% to be sold as DLC, and the gamers were still happy.

In the future, they will cut even 50% of the game to be sold as DLC, and the gamers are still going to be happy.

Why are the gamers are still happy?

Because they are told that the cut games are still 100%. Who told them that? Why, the game publishers, of course. "It's a difficult industry," says the EA executive, "We're not making money at all with all of our games, so please understand." "Yes, we need to do this otherwise we are going to be bankrupt" says the Capcom man in the suit.

"Our games do not have DLCs and yet we still manage to become the most profitable video game company in the world, and our software sales are awesome," says the Nintendo guy, but nobody is going to listen to Nintendo guy. Poor Nintendo guy.

But gamers will still be happy anyway. Since they believe the explanation of the EA and Capcom executives. "Poor executives," we said, "If we are not buying their DLCs, they are not going to make enough money to pay their employees!" Thus no matter how much game content they cut, we will simply nod our head and say "Okay!"

That way we can all still be happy. And look at those snazzy executives: they must be a honest group of people who are doing it for the sake of video gaming community.

Those saintly angels.

Let's take all 12 extra characters out of existance.

OH YOU'RE RIGHT, THEY ARE 50% OF THE GAME AND THE GAME IS NOW UNPLAYABLE. Screw all this other content that other fighters don't even have!

 

[plufim]

I'll gladly put more money towards a game I know I'll make the most of. Gamers have been spoiled for years, it's payback time for publishers and developers. LOL.

You are a gamer, you should want what's best for gamers, not publishers! What's wrong with you?!?

 

[Papercuts]

Let's take all 12 extra characters out of existance.

OH YOU'RE RIGHT, THEY ARE 50% OF THE GAME AND THE GAME IS NOW UNPLAYABLE. Screw all this other content that other fighters don't even have!

"Let's take the problem out of the equation"

 

[narcosis219]

"Let's take the problem out of the equation"

No, it was a direct response to the argument that the game is only 50% with the 12 characters removed

This isn't a case where the game's ending is missing like PoP. This is a completely playable, tournament ready game with a lot more features than a lot of fighting games out right now. 12 characters are extra

 

[VashTS]

Isnt brawl a fighting game?

Depends on who you ask.

 

[Papercuts]

No, it was a direct response to the argument that the game is only 50% with the 12 characters removed

This isn't a case where the game's ending is missing like PoP. This is a completely playable, tournament ready game with a lot more features than a lot of fighting games out right now. 12 characters are extra

It was a post saying that the 50% missing content is something in the FUTURE that will happen when stuff like this is continually supported. Developers and publishers will keep pushing the limit, was the point he was trying to get at.

I'm aware that the game has a large roster already. But the 12 finished characters certainly hurt the perceived value quite a bit to a lot of people, and can't really be argued against. It's not necessarily a battle of numbers either with fighting games, but character loyalty. Blanka is a SF mainstay, and if I was a blanka main I'd be pretty pissed that he's already done and cannot be obtained until months after the game is out.

 

[toastyToast]

I'm more annoyed that I can't just use the extra characters now. If this game cost $80 from the outset I really wouldn't think twice about getting it. I don't care for this DLC shenanigans and would prefer the full game on a disc.

Despite that I'm still buying. If this clicks when I get my hands on it I can see myself playing it for years.

 

[narcosis219]

It was a post saying that the 50% missing content is something in the FUTURE that will happen when stuff like this is continually supported. Developers and publishers will keep pushing the limit, was the point he was trying to get at.

I'm aware that the game has a large roster already. But the 12 finished characters certainly hurt the perceived value quite a bit to a lot of people, and can't really be argued against. It's not necessarily a battle of numbers either with fighting games, but character loyalty. Blanka is a SF mainstay, and if I was a blanka main I'd be pretty pissed that he's already done and cannot be obtained until months after the game is out.

I'm a Dudley main and I ain't even mad.

I'm more obliged to divulge into the entirely new cast of tekken characters.

If you're mad about DLC, fine, but don't get mad that Crapcom is shitting on your babies when every other developer out there is also doing it. Other fighting games have on disc DLC. MK9 had a patch in DLC set, and that didn't turn out very nicely now did it?