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Planned DLC content for SFxTekken found on the original disc
- Thread starter rocK`
- Start date
RedNumberFive
Banned
My household has been Windows free for the last decade.
NinjaBoiX
Member
Not at all, you can read right?
I basically said, if you buy a game, are happy and satisfied with your purchase, but still feel you want more at no extra cost, then you are just being greedy.
If you buy a game without doing a bit of reading to see what you get, then it's not really much of a surprise you got ripped off.
Flying Wonkey
Member
Greedy, I guess you can look at it like that. Although, what ever happened to "The customer is always right!" and getting more for your money train of though? Did we all suddenly decide no, fuck off you are getting less you greedy bastard somewhere? Hahahahaha
Well, sure it's not a 1:1 correlation, but I think you get the general idea. Many people are simply upset by the fact that they hold a disc with data on it, claim to have the right to access all of it because they paid money for said disc, yet somehow Capcom is far more reprehensible than company they "support" doing a similar thing. It's just not consistent thinking.
NinjaBoiX
Member
All I'm saying, is there is a difference between getting ripped of, and just wanting more because it's there.
Fire Walk With Me
Banned
iKeepPlaying
Banned
- I buy the game. I enjoy it. But I don't know about what's Capcom is doing with the DLC characters. I want more content and I'll pay more for it although it is already on the disk that I bought. = Good.
- I buy the game. I enjoy it. But I know about Capcom shitty DLC practices. I want more of what I legally own for being in the disk, for free. = Bad.
Uhm... Sorry but no. Until they aprove some bill where it says that I don't own the disk nor it's content and they're providing me only a service, I can't aprove Capcom's behavior.
robotzombie
Member
The unlocking argument is completely and utterly flawed as it ignores every game that was ever released that didnt have unlockable costumes and colors due to the fact that they ran out of time and money or it wasnt planned or budgeted in the first place. You cannot make the argument that in a world without DLC, we would have gotten these 12 characters and costumes as in game unlockables. We wouldnt have, unless of course you include the brand new sequel/upgrade game we would have had to buy in a year and a half.
Fire Walk With Me
Banned
I am not interested in discovering a perfect arguement. Something I used to get when I bought a game is no longer there so fuck Capcom. thats the end of my flawed arguement. Fuck them with fucking fire the sooner they go bankrupt the sooner video games get better.
yay, human flaws.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
lolz, Ninja Scooter this one's calling you out!
ihearthawthats
Banned
a lot of og fighting game players hate having to unlock crap.
i'm more inclined to think that the people who argue against capcom are those that aren't fighting game fans. otherwise they'd realize that even without the 12 extra characters included, sfxt is one of the more "complete" fighting games out there, especially interms of capcom fighters specifically (i.e. look at vanilla sf4, look at vanilla mvc3).
so whether or not you think capcom is doing some shady stuff, $60 for what we got is still one helluva deal if you ask me.
No it's just necessarily we don't think that the content would have been there otherwise and it's not a big deal that it's on the disc.
yeah it certainly is a flawed argument because you think if they went bankrupt other companies wouldn't try it or gaming would instantly get better? that's an insane argument.
Just that if all these companies that do this went bankrupt, there would be no industry and we'd have no fun games to play.
There are much greater injustices in the world, and I derive too much enjoyment from them to wish it all burn.It must be terribly dark.
robotzombie
Member
Hahahaha post of the day
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Actually if we're going to get into the unlocking argument, Capcom games never had most of that stuff, ever.
The only thing Capcom ever did was sometimes lock some of the default cast members to provide the sense of a "bonus". But their games never had alt costumes or sprites, never had the same kind of bonus content some other developers put into fighting games.
SFIV was the first time Capcom made alt costumes, but they weren't changing their behavior by selling them. Also, SFIV did have a lot of unlockables - besides tons of titles, it had tons of character colors and tons of character taunts to unlock.
The only reason SFxT doesn't have unlockable colors is due to the color edit, which (for whatever reason) they're adding more colors to after launch, but not as paid DLC.
Despite wild claims of the entire industry now being shit, other companies making fighting games are behaving almost entirely as they always have.
Tekken games still have extra costumes by default.
Soul Calibur V, in spite of one money-hatted locked character, still has alt costumes and SHITLOADS of included customization parts for create a soul. The only DLC for parts has been paltry and can be ignored.
DOA has always included tons of costumes for the characters. Stuff like that.
There is stuff to criticize Capcom over. It's just the sheer elevated level of vitriol is what gets to you. The hyperbole that grossly exaggerates what they've actually done.
As for the whole character debate in the context of this specific game, I'd still tend to think that if they hadn't decided on funding 12 characters via DLC, we wouldn't have those 12 characters. The SFIV team had to make more new content for this one game, than for every version of SFIV combined - talking about just the 38 default characters.
So, if it's either: get 38 characters and no DLC, or get 38 characters + DLC, in the end, it just seems bitching overly much about when the DLC was budgeted and worked on is ultimately pointless.
The only thing Capcom ever did was sometimes lock some of the default cast members to provide the sense of a "bonus". But their games never had alt costumes or sprites, never had the same kind of bonus content some other developers put into fighting games.
SFIV was the first time Capcom made alt costumes, but they weren't changing their behavior by selling them. Also, SFIV did have a lot of unlockables - besides tons of titles, it had tons of character colors and tons of character taunts to unlock.
The only reason SFxT doesn't have unlockable colors is due to the color edit, which (for whatever reason) they're adding more colors to after launch, but not as paid DLC.
Despite wild claims of the entire industry now being shit, other companies making fighting games are behaving almost entirely as they always have.
Tekken games still have extra costumes by default.
Soul Calibur V, in spite of one money-hatted locked character, still has alt costumes and SHITLOADS of included customization parts for create a soul. The only DLC for parts has been paltry and can be ignored.
DOA has always included tons of costumes for the characters. Stuff like that.
There is stuff to criticize Capcom over. It's just the sheer elevated level of vitriol is what gets to you. The hyperbole that grossly exaggerates what they've actually done.
As for the whole character debate in the context of this specific game, I'd still tend to think that if they hadn't decided on funding 12 characters via DLC, we wouldn't have those 12 characters. The SFIV team had to make more new content for this one game, than for every version of SFIV combined - talking about just the 38 default characters.
So, if it's either: get 38 characters and no DLC, or get 38 characters + DLC, in the end, it just seems bitching overly much about when the DLC was budgeted and worked on is ultimately pointless.
Fire Walk With Me
Banned
Just that if all these companies that do this went bankrupt, there would be no industry and we'd have no fun games to play.
Frankly I think Japanese companies need some bloodletting to get good again. They are going through a period like the West went through a decade ago (macro not micro). I have a hard time finding games worth playing these days from the land of the rising sun. Exceptions abound of course but its getting harder and harder.
I read their suits always worried about courting the west and then they do nothing to actually court the west. Maybe the misconception is that we enjoy spending money just for the sake of it.
NinjaBoiX
Member
Fine, you are a consumer who wants everything available, regardless of it's perceived value.
I'm a consumer who judges the value of every purchase on it's own merits.
Horses for courses dude.
This is a key part of the issue, I think. I can think of dozens of instances where you *possess* content you don't own the *right* to use. The Windows example earlier in the thread. XBLA demos. Shareware with unlock keys. The ability to place a Paintinator in LBP. Team Fortress 2 hats by the dozen. World of Warcraft sparkleponies.
Similarly, I can think of instances (far fewer!) where you have the *right* to use content you don't possess. Site licenses for software, most notably; you don't have multiple discs, but you're allowed to run multiple copies. Through work I have the full rights to download a copy of Microsoft Office for personal use. I don't have discs.
The world has moved on from being constrained by the concept of owning the content on a disc - both in ways that benefit the consumer, and in ways that hinder them. I, too, believe that we need to move on from this concept; discs are just a means of distribution of a digital product, the actual product ought to be the data, not the disc.
ihearthawthats
Banned
every single mmo? software applications that have licenses? even music and movies you don't technically "own" and can't just do whatever the shit you want with them.mclem said:
imo, the 12 extra dlc characters should be regarded as on the disc, but not in the game (if that makes sense).
NinjaBoiX
Member
Man, well put dude!
iKeepPlaying
Banned
If it was in the case of a song, I would want to listen it.
If it was in the case of an extra chapter in a movie, I would want to watch it.
If it was in the case of an extra character in a game, I would want to play with it.
I don't want to rip the 3D model and sell it or "do whatever the shit I want with it". I just want to play with something that it is on the disc. If they don't want me to play with it. Ok, but don't put in the disc.
But, as mclem said this is a complex issue and we can't just say that this is black or white. Personally, I'm just tired of Capcom's shitty practices (See SF4/MvC3). Other might argue something else, I don't know.
By the way, mclem in your example you mentioned TF2. How does it lock any content? Just curious. Because you can get any item/hat/whatever by drop. It's harder? Sure, but you can get them.
Sure, but until you *earn* them - either by a purchase or through play - you don't have the *right* to use them. But the data's still sitting on your hard disk, despite that. You possess the data which includes the model file for the hat.
I didn't think SFIV was handled badly. SFIV was their first attempt to re-start the genre on a modern console and almost never happened. After 8 or so years of nothing, I can cut them some slack on their first effort back. I can't reasonably expect them to nail it perfectly on the first try. With that in mind, Super was a pretty darned good value for $40 and a huge upgrade to SFIV. AE is my biggest beef, as I hated the design philosophy behind it and no one wanted those characters. The delivery methods seemed reasonable to me.
Yeah, MvC3 was kind of a mess, but Marvel is as much to blame for some of how that turned out, especially in the timing, character choices, and count and other restrictions dealing with such an anal and hyper-restrictive company brings. I think people overlook the role Marvel had in all that. If it did not have that license handcuffing them, I'd bet the result would have been much different.
iKeepPlaying
Banned
Sure, but you still have the chance to do it. You can do it the hard way, by playing the game, or you can do it the easy way, paying for the item.
Here, you can't get the data by playing, you have to pay for it.
The Microsoft Windows analogy makes sense to me, but in the world of videogames it won't be accepted because it's never been the norm.
Plus, I feel like DLC never gets good discounts. Hell it's still five bucks to unlock yoda/vader in soul caliber 4. I think that sucks.
True, no one is forcing you to buy anything, but if I got a better deal I'd at least consider it.
Plus, I feel like DLC never gets good discounts. Hell it's still five bucks to unlock yoda/vader in soul caliber 4. I think that sucks.
True, no one is forcing you to buy anything, but if I got a better deal I'd at least consider it.
The real problem is that DLC is still perceived as what it used to be on PCs back in the day: expansion packs.
You buy a finished product, play the shit out of it, and a few months down the line the developer gets the team back together and makes a new chapter to the game that tacks on to your existing purchase and adds to your favorite game for like $10 or $15. That is awesome. It feels like the developer cares and is continuing to support the game that you bought.
What is happening now is that game companies are allocating development time and money in the creation of "future DLC" while the team is still working on the original game. It's locked away on the disc until such a time as they see fit to sell a tiny unlock file. Now it feels like you've bought a completed game where sections have been locked off to you until you pay more money. It doesn't feel like they're continuing to support the game after release, all the work has been done. It's on the disc, you just can't play it unitl you pay more. This feels like it's being held for ransom. It's not awesome.
You buy a finished product, play the shit out of it, and a few months down the line the developer gets the team back together and makes a new chapter to the game that tacks on to your existing purchase and adds to your favorite game for like $10 or $15. That is awesome. It feels like the developer cares and is continuing to support the game that you bought.
What is happening now is that game companies are allocating development time and money in the creation of "future DLC" while the team is still working on the original game. It's locked away on the disc until such a time as they see fit to sell a tiny unlock file. Now it feels like you've bought a completed game where sections have been locked off to you until you pay more money. It doesn't feel like they're continuing to support the game after release, all the work has been done. It's on the disc, you just can't play it unitl you pay more. This feels like it's being held for ransom. It's not awesome.
A company has every right to choose under what conditions they confer usage rights onto you. The fact that this situation offers one fewer option than Valve's situation doesn't change the fact that it's fundamentally the same thing.
We need to evolve our attitudes as gamers, because it ought to be the norm. Buying the medium of transport and not the data is completely counterintuitive.
Counterexample: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_VIII:_Pagan#Speech_Pack
Can't find a release date for the Privateer speech pack (other than "1993"), but I think it was developed concurrently too.
Besides which: Not even *thinking* about putting hooks in for DLC at the development stage is *poor project planning*.
Edit: Just reminded myself about how Julian Gollop also had (the 1990's equivalent of) DLC planned at release of a product:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Squad said:
Ploid 3.0
Member
I think the characters will cost $60 alone. $5 each, Jill and Shuma still cost $5 right?
Ninja Scooter
Member
Meh. At this point it's like arguing with the little girl from Willy Wonka that wants her own golden goose.
robotzombie
Member
Different game, different dev team, and the biggest factor which makesthat scenario have absolutely nothing to do with this scenario, Marvel
sixteen-bit
Member
I like my solution better
FallingEdge
Member
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/all-gem-names-and-descriptions-on-disc-spoilers.155840/
pretty sure there are more DLC gems that are on the disc but are locked.
LOL @ the anti-whiff gem and 'make it harder for your opponent to juggle you' gem.
pretty sure there are more DLC gems that are on the disc but are locked.
LOL @ the anti-whiff gem and 'make it harder for your opponent to juggle you' gem.
kunonabi
Member
Capcom games used to have plenty of bonus content. SFA3, Rival Schools, Tech romancer, CVS, etc all hard plenty of extras. SFXT is not this holy grail of content and modes that justifies locking 1/4 of the cast to be paid for later.
TheNatural
My Member!
Two things here:
I hate DLC with a passion, especially this kind. Why? Because it's almost always stuff that can be easily inserted into the game that is withheld to make more money. Locking it on disc is the ultimate of the ultimate middle finger, even if they withheld it from the disc itself and released it digitally, it's still shady as fuck. Withholding value from a game that you could easily have put in, gets absolutely no support from me.
Second thing here, what the fuck happened to Gameshark? Anyone remember back in the day, you could unlock all sorts of shit on cartridges and discs that weren't meant to be seen in the game. Everything from THQ's N64 wrestling games where you could unlock MMA fighting styles, to HCTP on PS2 where you could unlock Ultimate Warrior on disc, to even Ocarina of Time where a fucking Arwing was in the game. Not to mention all the "normal" locked shit you could unlock.
Why is there no Gameshark or whatever else nowadays that can just unlock this crap that's on disc?
I hate DLC with a passion, especially this kind. Why? Because it's almost always stuff that can be easily inserted into the game that is withheld to make more money. Locking it on disc is the ultimate of the ultimate middle finger, even if they withheld it from the disc itself and released it digitally, it's still shady as fuck. Withholding value from a game that you could easily have put in, gets absolutely no support from me.
Second thing here, what the fuck happened to Gameshark? Anyone remember back in the day, you could unlock all sorts of shit on cartridges and discs that weren't meant to be seen in the game. Everything from THQ's N64 wrestling games where you could unlock MMA fighting styles, to HCTP on PS2 where you could unlock Ultimate Warrior on disc, to even Ocarina of Time where a fucking Arwing was in the game. Not to mention all the "normal" locked shit you could unlock.
Why is there no Gameshark or whatever else nowadays that can just unlock this crap that's on disc?
Namco-
Tekken 6- had everything on disc
SC4- had to pay for Yoda/Vader, some costume parts
SC5- had to pay for Dampierre, some costume parts
Capcom
SF4- had to spend way too much time unlocking chars
SSF4- pay for costumes
SSF4AE- pay for costumes
MVC3- pay for costumes, 2 chars
UMVC3- paid chars transferred
SFvsTK- pay for 12 chars, costumes
It's clear to me that SFvsTK is going beyond the standards of the other Capcom/Namco games. If the game was $40 or $50, I'd be ok with this, but not at $60, $60+ at least $25-30 of DLC, I'd pay that sort of money only for VF or KOF.
Then again, I think I'm the target audience Capcom loses with this strategy, I'm willing to give the same a shot, but not willing to go in whole hog since Capcom isn't my favorite company for fighters, and I have other choices. I think I'll give Extend a run until Skullgirls comes out if I have to, it won't kill me to miss out on more gi-wearing dorks, some with spiky hair edition version of SF.
I'm still on the fence with this game, I may still get it- but I'm not happy.
Corrected for accuracy.
12 chars seem like a lot to lock away until the timing gets considered. Fall at the earliest means this is essentially the SSF4/UMVC3 expansion, if Capcom decides to patch the netcode and balance changes in conjunction with the Vita launch when the dlc becomes publicly available.
KOF did this as well, and they largely got a free pass, (but the base game was $50 so they mostly deserve it)
If Capcom pledged a free expansion/ rebalance in around six months time, I'd be fine with the DLC. I just don't trust them to keep working on this game, or to make good changes. SF4 over its lifespan had plenty of bad changes and additions.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Then just ask for a EA-type cheatcode as DLC.
For me, unlocking SF4 characters was part of the fun and only the beginning of my time with the game. You can't blame developers for giving people a challenge to unlock things...
iKeepPlaying
Banned
Sorry, but what is this shit? smh...
It depends on the game, really. For fighting games, there are some who want the whole roster out there, so they can pick of who's in the game that they want to play as, not just who's in the game and currently unlocked. Conversely, a platformer is all about unlocking shit as you progress.
Okay, so now you've just added a chunk onto the budget. How do you recoup that loss?
Security's got better.
To unlock all the chars you had to beat arcade mode 24 times.