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[BHK3]

My point simply being is that if you don't think Rockstar and Bethseda put as much work into DLC pre-release as Capcom has with SFxT, you are being extremely naive. The difference simply is that Capcom, for whatever reason (to save bandwidth, would be my guess) put a bunch of it on the disc so they'd have less to download later. That's all.

The content is done and it's on the disk. There is no effort for DLC because the "DLC" is done, the effort was put forth before the games release then they put a lock on 12 characters. If you truly believe that Capcom is doing this because of 'bandwidth' issues,now THATS head-in-the-sand ignorance.

 

[enzo_gt]

So did they say there's not gonna be a $40~$60 ultimate ver. for this game down the line?

Yes because it's a one disc contract with Namco.

 

[akilshohen]

Has Capcom Crossed the Line?

 

[Card Boy]

Say when the PC version comes out and the content is locked out and some modder works out a way to hack the game to get the DLC characters, would you guys consider it piracy?

 

[Kai Dracon]

I really don't get it. How is it not obvious to everyone that if consumers actually get really pissed off about on-disc DLC, that same DLC will just not be on the disc and they'll have to download it, which is worse for everyone but which apparently isn't nearly as scummy on the part of the publisher?

Remember that game development is not a serial process. If designing characters takes less time than making the rest of the game, and everything starts at the same time, your character designers are going to finish first. You could keep paying them and have them make more characters, but you're only going to do that if there's net expected value from it.

Now, it's obviously the case that some DLC is content that would have been in the game for free if there was no DLC. The marginal value of DLC to a publisher is huge, and it can make sense to trade some sales of your game for more DLC purchases, if the ratio is right. If DLC wasn't an option, you might have included that content anyway in order to generate more sales, but you wouldn't have been able to sell the game at a higher price point because the market resists that. It's perfectly reasonable to be annoyed that DLC encourages this; consumers are right to be sad that suppliers have gotten better at price discrimination. But the on-disc vs downloaded distinction is bizarre and ridiculous. Even the made-before-release and made-after-release distinction is strange; if that were really a big deal to consumers you'd just see some content that would otherwise have been made before release being delayed in production, and due to timing issues this might result in whole games being delayed more often and for longer than they currently are.

So, be upset that we have DLC at all, or don't be. But I haven't heard a not-crazy argument for anything else being particularly bad for the consumer.

This is pretty much the most accurate post in the entire thread and maybe in any DLC discussion on NeoGAF.

I don't think anything could be added to it.

Has Capcom Crossed the Line?

Oh you <3

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The content is done and it's on the disk. There is no effort for DLC because the "DLC" is done, the effort was put forth before the games release then they put a lock on 12 characters. If you truly believe that Capcom is doing this because of 'bandwidth' issues,now THATS head-in-the-sand ignorance.

That's not ignorance, that's exactly why they do it. To save themselves (and in turn, consumers) from having to waste bandwidth uploading and downloading all that shit, instead of just a few Kbs/Mbs in the from of a download key. The fact of the matter is that this stuff was planned as DLC from the start. There was no bait and switch. There was no deception. For MONTHS Capcom has made it perfectly clear what gamers will get if they choose to pay $60 for this game on March 6th. I don't' see what is "scummy" or unethical about this. And I especially don't see how someone could find it "scummy or unethical", yet if they simply made you download the entire character files, yet the characters were still all done and complete before the game shipped, that'd be okay.

 

[CountAntonius]

This is pretty much the most accurate post in the entire thread and maybe in any DLC discussion on NeoGAF.

I don't think anything could be added to it.



Oh you <3

It don't matter people will ignore it and keep complaining anyway.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I haven't been following the OT for the last few days but I will say this, based on what I've just seen on YouTube.

It's one thing to withold DLC till after launch.

It's a very different thing to have perfectly playable characters complete and on the disc you buy.

You can defend it all you want. It's anti consumer and its bullshit.

I nearly caved in and preordered. Fuck that.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

This is pretty much the most accurate post in the entire thread and maybe in any DLC discussion on NeoGAF.

I don't think anything could be added to it.



Oh you <3

This is my biggest problem. THe idea that someone here thinks Bethseda, of all companies, does it "right" even though they have been making a killing off DLC since this gen started, and probably has a ton of extra content done and completed well in advance of game releases because it's such a great revenue stream for them, is laughable. It's basically someone saying "Make me spend 30 minutes downloading a gigantic file so that I can play dumb and convince myself that this was all made after the original game went gold!"

 

[Kai Dracon]

This is my biggest problem. THe idea that someone here thinks Bethseda, of all companies, does it "right" even though they have been making a killing off DLC since this gen started, and probably has a ton of extra content done and completed well in advance of game releases because it's such a great revenue stream for them, is laughable. It's basically someone saying "Make me spend 30 minutes downloading a gigantic file so that I can play dumb and convince myself that this was all made after the original game went gold!"

Fable II and III also had multiple DLC expansions that were 300 meg downloads, but came out right after the games launched.

In fact, a fair number of games have had off-disc DLC released way too fast for it to have been approved by the platform holders screening process, much less built from scratch.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

It comes down to if they're all completed characters on the disc. Includes movesets, supers, tag specials, etc. If not completed, they'll have it patched in an update and sell it to us. If they do have it completed, well it'll look like Capcom is just money grubbing us consumers. Might as well wait for the ultimate version 8 months to a year down the line for all the dlc characters included.

 

[CountAntonius]

This is my biggest problem. THe idea that someone here thinks Bethseda, of all companies, does it "right" even though they have been making a killing off DLC since this gen started, and probably has a ton of extra content done and completed well in advance of game releases because it's such a great revenue stream for them, is laughable. It's basically someone saying "Make me spend 30 minutes downloading a gigantic file so that I can play dumb and convince myself that this was all made after the original game went gold!"

Yeah. As someone who knew DLC was coming and bought a ton for SSFIV I like that it's on disc. Now people can see my DLC costumes without owning them. Hopefully I can use the DLC characters against people who don't own them. Nobody has to DL a huge file and I don't have to wait 6 more months for them to finish developing them.

 

[Degen]

so the problem is... that the characters are done, so... you don't... you don't get to take up extra space on your hard drive? you don't get to wait as long for their release?

i'm-- i'm not following, guys.

 

[CountAntonius]

so the problem is... that the characters are done, so... you don't... you don't get to take up extra space on your hard drive? you don't get to wait as long for their release?

i'm-- i'm not following, guys.

"It's the principle man!"

 

[njean777]

I don't and I won't. Simple as that. I'm speaking with my money and I know in the end it won't matter but there it is. Others can justify it to themselves but I do find it unethical low behavior. They could have at least made an attempt to make it more palatable like they did by making it part of a SE edition like Shuma + Jill or like the ME3 DLC with the CE. I find those tactics dirty as well but there is an option to get what is on the disc out of the box at least with those (well, the ME3 is actual DLC though).

There is a huge difference with the Mass Effect dlc as it has actual story context, extra characters are just extra characters. Do not compare this to the crap Bioware is pulling.

 

[Skilletor]

so the problem is... that the characters are done, so... you don't... you don't get to take up extra space on your hard drive? you don't get to wait as long for their release?

i'm-- i'm not following, guys.

My problem is having to wait at all. I don't care about paying. But they're done, I want to use them. Hackers get to, why can't I?

 

[CountAntonius]

My problem is having to wait at all. I don't care about paying. But they're done, I want to use them. Hackers get to, why can't I?

To keep the game fresh and in the press months after release. Though I agree with you I'd like to buy them now as well.

 

[MisterLuffy]

I'm not buying this game. I'll wait.

 

[BHK3]

That's not ignorance, that's exactly why they do it. To save themselves (and in turn, consumers) from having to waste bandwidth uploading and downloading all that shit, instead of just a few Kbs/Mbs in the from of a download key. The fact of the matter is that this stuff was planned as DLC from the start. There was no bait and switch. There was no deception. For MONTHS Capcom has made it perfectly clear what gamers will get if they choose to pay $60 for this game on March 6th. I don't' see what is "scummy" or unethical about this. And I especially don't see how someone could find it "scummy or unethical", yet if they simply made you download the entire character files, yet the characters were still all done and complete before the game shipped, that'd be okay.

You are literally saying that space and size is a issue. I'm not gonna say much to that since it's...well it's just stupid. Capcom said that for $60 you get this and this, but it turns out you also get this but you can't touch, you have to pay to open a extra folder in your SFxT disc which you already paid money for. If space was really the issue, why won't they say "Oh, there's extra stuff on the disc but we're gonna unlock them later for you guys so you can just click,buy and open in 5 seconds so our weak servers don't get overloaded and your HDD doesn't get clogged."

This is my biggest problem. THe idea that someone here thinks Bethseda, of all companies, does it "right" even though they have been making a killing off DLC since this gen started, and probably has a ton of extra content done and completed well in advance of game releases because it's such a great revenue stream for them, is laughable. It's basically someone saying "Make me spend 30 minutes downloading a gigantic file so that I can play dumb and convince myself that this was all made after the original game went gold!"

Yeah, why didn't they just put it on the disc day one so we can all save bandwidth and just download keys?

 

[Gotchaye]

My problem is having to wait at all. I don't care about paying. But they're done, I want to use them. Hackers get to, why can't I?

I'll give you that one. Depending on the implementation, on-disc DLC can feed into the "paying for the inferior version" problem. I don't think that justifies pirating the game, but it's a legitimate annoyance, and possibly publishers could serve their customers better by keeping the DLC off-disk, even if it's completed at release, to make sure that pirates aren't playing a better version of the game.

 

[M-PG71C]

And people will still buy it. Life moves on.

Gamers like to bitch but when it comes to pay up, they bend over and take it in the ass, no lube. That's always been the case.

 

[Roto13]

Day one DLC doesn't usually bother me because a game isn't finished moments before it ships. Stuff like the Mass Effect 3 DLC mission probably weren't ready when that game went gold and was sent out to be printed.

This, however, was ready when the game was completed. That's an important difference.

Also, lol at Seth Killian the other day saying, and I quote, "We'll find a way to make sure that console fans are happy, as well," in regards to the possibility of putting these characters in the console version, implying that this is something they have to work on and try for the sake of the fans. It's already fucking been done.

 

[Htown]

how many non-DLC characters are on the disc?

 

[Synth_floyd]

Who cares if it's already on the disc? Does it make a difference if they make you download it rather than just unlock it? They've chosen to charge for that content and not make it part of the regular game.

 

[lobdale]

Day one DLC doesn't usually bother me because a game isn't finished moments before it ships. Stuff like the Mass Effect 3 DLC mission probably weren't ready when that game went gold and was sent out to be printed.

This, however, was ready when the game was completed. That's an important difference.

Also, lol at Seth Killian the other day saying, and I quote, "We'll find a way to make sure that console fans are happy, as well," in regards to the possibility of putting these characters in the console version, implying that this is something they have to work on and try for the sake of the fans. It's already fucking been done.

Looks like they found a way.

 

[abstract alien]

It is a bit irritating that hackers get to use the characters while paying customers can't even play the game yet, but I guess it can't be helped. Well it can, but it won't be.

 

[CountAntonius]

how many non-DLC characters are on the disc?

38.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

You are literally saying that space and size is a issue. I'm not gonna say much to that since it's...well it's just stupid. Capcom said that for $60 you get this and this, but it turns out you also get this but you can't touch, you have to pay to open a extra folder in your SFxT disc which you already paid money for. If space was really the issue, why won't they say "Oh, there's extra stuff on the disc but we're gonna unlock them later for you guys so you can just click,buy and open in 5 seconds so our weak servers don't get overloaded and your HDD doesn't get clogged."


Yeah, why didn't they just put it on the disc day one so we can all save bandwidth and just download keys?

I don't know the specifics of how Xbox Live and PSN work, but I'd imagine that Capcom might be able to save some money they have to pay to Sony and MS by having smaller d/l files, and in turn, consumers don't have to waste as much bandwidth and HDD space downloading all that shit. That's what I meant, that there might be some sort of incentive for Capcom to put the files on the disc now instead of offering them later.

 

[Seik]

*Sigh*

I'm impressed that some people are surprised by shit like this. It's not the first time we've being Capcom'd. Still, what a disappointment...

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Theres a lot of "this is planned DLC so its OK"

As somebody whos been on both sides of the fence, more often than not, that argument is a lie from the developer.

Not saying Capcom is doing that, but Ive heard plenty of executives use it.

My problem is, if the content is there let me pay "x" amount so I can play with the fucking characters already, fuck.

Day one DLC doesn't usually bother me because a game isn't finished moments before it ships. Stuff like the Mass Effect 3 DLC mission probably weren't ready when that game went gold and was sent out to be printed.

This, however, was ready when the game was completed. That's an important difference.

Also, lol at Seth Killian the other day saying, and I quote, "We'll find a way to make sure that console fans are happy, as well," in regards to the possibility of putting these characters in the console version, implying that this is something they have to work on and try for the sake of the fans. It's already fucking been done.

Seth is PR, so hell say whatever he has to say at the time. His job is not to tell you the truth, its to protect Capcoms interests in a fan friendly way

 

[Htown]

38.

In that case, twelve is a damn lot to have locked up on the disc an inaccessible for your 60 bucks.

So $60 only gets you 3/4 of the characters on the disc? You actually have to pay way more to get A FOURTH of the characters?

Capcom being Capcom, unfortunately.

 

[Kintaro]

As somebody whos been on both sides of the fence, more often than not, that argument is a lie from the developer.

I dunno about other devs (you, of course know more) but this Capcom yo. Of course its a lie! lmao

 

[vocab]

Aren't rockstar a bit more careful now post the Hot Coffee incident?

That has nothing to do with them raping your wallet.

 

[Pctx]

Capcom jumped the shark, fucked the shark, tipped the shark, ate the shark, shit the shark and then repackaged it as their version of what they view a shark to be. That is every Capcom game post SF4 that has had any hint of success. DLC, episodic content, outfits and things that all look like a shark, swim like a shark, bite like a shark means that you only have one choice: get out of the fucking water.

Til;dr Capcom can go to hell for their business model and you can vote with your dollars.

 

[Hero]

From the other thread...

would it make you feel better if they just made you waste bandwidth and time and download everything in 6 months?

Stop thinking you are entitled to everything that a developer is working on while making a game.

Haha it's shit like this from people who don't mind getting their wallets raped that we're in this kind of situation since it keeps getting supported.

Locking content on the retail disc is just so dumb and it only applies to video games because they're the only ones gullible to support companies that do this. Literally no other industry has this kind of practice.

 

[Kai Dracon]

And people will still buy it. Life moves on.

Gamers like to bitch but when it comes to pay up, they bend over and take it in the ass, no lube. That's always been the case.

This is true, but it also raises another question: with all this talk about "consumer rights" in the DLC debate: who are the DLC critics to tell everyone else that they're fools for spending money on something that's worth that money to them?

Because that's the attitude hidden between the lines. (And sometimes, not so hidden.)

If people vote with their wallets, then DLC has been voted into office by possibly the majority of gamers this generation. People mock Call of Duty players for buying map packs, but to the COD players the map packs are clearly valuable and worth their money. Else the map packs would have failed and we wouldn't see publishers using that strategy.

The fighting games present a more interesting case, as far as Capcom goes at least, in that despite Vanilla MVC3's good sales, the Jill and Shuma DLC allegedly performed poorly. So, it seems with this game Capcom is making a harder push - preparing far more characters for DLC at once and making some of the more popular and desired characters DLC rather than RE5 Jill and "who the hell is that?" Shuma.

I suppose we'll see what happens. Perhaps these DLC characters will perform as badly as with MVC3. If that happens, I would expect Capcom to likely back away from doing DLC characters for fighting games - but if that does happen, before anyone starts to cheer "victory!" they should brace themselves for Darkstalkers 4 or Capcom vs SNK 3 not having a ton of characters. It seems probable with how this has worked that Capcom will just dial back the overall budget and scale the fighting games down, if they can't make the money off them they feel they require.

On the other hand, if these 12 characters sell good to excellent, get ready for the new standard.

 

[Kintaro]

Capcom jumped the shark, fucked the shark, tipped the shark, ate the shark, shit the shark and then repackaged it as their version of what they view a shark to be. That is every Capcom game post SF4 that has had any hint of success. DLC, episodic content, outfits and things that all look like a shark, swim like a shark, bite like a shark means that you only have one choice: get out of the fucking water.

Til;dr Capcom can go to hell for their business model and you can vote with your dollars.

"All you mother fuckers are going to pay..."

http://youtu.be/bGGDRRRxGp4

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I dunno about other devs (you, of course know more) but this Capcom yo. Of course its a lie! lmao

Surely its a cultural mistranslation! I mean, you wouldnt think a company with a spokesman that dresses up in Blanka costumes wouldnt rip you off behind the back because you were too busy looking at the funnyman to notice!

Sadly the new attitude is "our fans are great and will buy it all regardless" rather than "our fans are great and should be rewarded"

 

[sleepykyo]

In that case, twelve is a damn lot to have locked up on the disc an inaccessible for your 60 bucks.

So $60 only gets you 3/4 of the characters on the disc? You actually have to pay way more to get A FOURTH of the characters?

Capcom being Capcom, unfortunately.

That's one way look at it. The other is you're getting 38 characters for $60. That's less than $2 a character.

 

[ultron87]

I'd be far madder if I bought DLC and I could not use it against people online who hadn't bought it.

 

[Kurod]

Bravo, Capcom. Nice to see you continuing to push the industry business model.

What's next? Expiring online passes? "Continue to play online for only an additional $4.99 every three months." Can't wait to hear people defend that one.

 

[Kintaro]

Surely its a cultural mistranslation! I mean, you wouldnt think a company with a spokesman that dresses up in Blanka costumes wouldnt rip you off behind the back because you were too busy looking at the funnyman to notice!

Sadly the new attitude is "our fans are great and will buy it all regardless" rather than "our fans are great and should be rewarded"

Capcom needs to have a talk with Gabe.

 

[Lupin the Third]

Surely its a cultural mistranslation! I mean, you wouldnt think a company with a spokesman that dresses up in Blanka costumes wouldnt rip you off behind the back because you were too busy looking at the funnyman to notice!

Sadly the new attitude is "our fans are great and will buy it all regardless" rather than "our fans are great and should be rewarded"

With Capcom killing off their other great, milkable franchises (Mega Man proper), where else are they gonna get their extra scratch from?

 

[Kai Dracon]

Surely its a cultural mistranslation! I mean, you wouldnt think a company with a spokesman that dresses up in Blanka costumes wouldnt rip you off behind the back because you were too busy looking at the funnyman to notice!

Sadly the new attitude is "our fans are great and will buy it all regardless" rather than "our fans are great and should be rewarded"

It's interesting that people assume everyone within a company is of the same attitude and opinion. Therefore, if the company does one thing, while a particular producer says another thing, the only answer is that the producer is insincere and lying.

Which is kind of a dumb thing to assume. Back when this entire Capcom fighting game revival started, it was stated pretty openly that the actual moneymen at Capcom didn't think FGs were worth it and didn't want to revive Street Fighter. Ono had to fight with them to try it.

So, the quotes from Ono from way back then, like four years ago now, keep getting dragged up. The bits where he says he doesn't want to do DLC characters in games.

Now we have DLC characters, so people say "That Ono! This was his wicked plan all along!"

But what's simpler? That the producers of games lie at every turn and go out of their way to conceal Wicked Plans, or that the uncaring company officers who are only concerned with making money will order their employees to do whatever is required to make money, even if it makes their employees look like hypocrites due to a previous statement?

Knowing how corporations work, I'm betting on the latter.

Personally, I think it's likely that people like Ono, or Seth, are sincere about their appreciations for the fans and wish to do a good job. But in the end, they're going to be forced to execute whatever plan the moneymen decree.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

so the problem is... that the characters are done, so... you don't... you don't get to take up extra space on your hard drive? you don't get to wait as long for their release?

i'm-- i'm not following, guys.

Well kind of. If you are going to fight these characters online you'll need to download them yourself via a mandatory patch. At that point it will be just an unlock code anyways so might as well put it on the disc and save time.

Isn't that what happened with MK's dlc?

 

[Mengetsu]

For the people who didn't get to see Elena playable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9vma0wJ91o

 

[BHK3]

This is true, but it also raises another question: with all this talk about "consumer rights" in the DLC debate: who are the DLC critics to tell everyone else that they're fools for spending money on something that's worth that money to them?

I sold a bag of shit to my friend who finds it valuable, hey he likes shit who am I to judge? BUT, I used magic to keep him away from some of the shit in the bag, and if he wants he can pay me more money for the bag of shit he already bought to take away the magic keeping him from the rest of his shit. I'm not sure what this has to do with the post but I remembered a funny webcomic basically explaining this.

If people vote with their wallets, then DLC has been voted into office by possibly the majority of gamers this generation. People mock Call of Duty players for buying map packs, but to the COD players the map packs are clearly valuable and worth their money. Else the map packs would have failed and we wouldn't see publishers using that strategy.

You'd be surprised on how many people regret buying the map packs, but it's cod so anything they do is a success. If they made a pack with 5 maps and a new weapon for $20, then we would have seen a spike in oddly packed content packs for higher price.

The fighting games present a more interesting case, as far as Capcom goes at least, in that despite Vanilla MVC3's good sales, the Jill and Shuma DLC allegedly performed poorly. So, it seems with this game Capcom is making a harder push - preparing far more characters for DLC at once and making some of the more popular and desired characters DLC rather than RE5 Jill and "who the hell is that?" Shuma.

Push came to shove, they wanted more money and it backfired, now they're bringing out the big guns, bigger then Alissas chainsaws.

I suppose we'll see what happens. Perhaps these DLC characters will perform as badly as with MVC3. If that happens, I would expect Capcom to likely back away from doing DLC characters for fighting games - but if that does happen, before anyone starts to cheer "victory!" they should brace themselves for Darkstalkers 4 or Capcom vs SNK 3 not having a ton of characters. It seems probable with how this has worked that Capcom will just dial back the overall budget and scale the fighting games down, if they can't make the money off them they feel they require.

On the other hand, if these 12 characters sell good to excellent, get ready for the new standard.

And a new dark age will begin. A land of poor $15 arcade games, map packs half filled with rehashes for the same price and entire fighting rosters locked away, only able to be opened by the mythical 2KB key.

 

[Kintaro]

So, what will Capcom sell us? DLC Characters, DLC costumes, DLC colors for color edit and DLC Gems.

You know, I hope anyone who is for this never says a word about EA/Bioware ever. lol

The hilarious part is...I bet only like 2-4 of these characters will be any good. Not to mention Gems. BUT, you gotta buy them all to find out!

 

[Slamtastic]

Well kind of. If you are going to fight these characters online you'll need to download them yourself via a mandatory patch. At that point it will be just an unlock code anyways so might as well put it on the disc and save time.

How are they going to put them on the disc when they shouldn't start working on them until after the game goes gold (or else they would be in the initial roster)

 

[kirblar]

It is a bit irritating that hackers get to use the characters while paying customers can't even play the game yet, but I guess it can't be helped. Well it can, but it won't be.

This is the real issue here. It's not a matter of principle, it's a matter of piracy.