Support NeoGAF

[hyperbertha]

Let's make one thing clear ...

You can only say that Ps5 has boot mode if you assume it is a [REDACTED FOR PROTECTION]Tflops machine

Neo member, legend has it that if you mention that number anywhere in your post you will get permabanned within 3 hours. You have approximately 2 hours and 2 minutes to edit your post.

Sincerely,
Member

 

[MasterCornholio]

power consumption is the limit but the temp can rise depending on your environment.
PS5 wont be capped at 3.5 GHz for the CPU and 2.23 GHz for the GPU, the downclock indicate the chip is being pushed to its absolute max and it will prevent the system from sounding like a jet engine.

If Sony is telling the developers that it isn't because of the environment because developers have no control over the temperature of the environment.

If anything since the system downclocks based on the power budget it's pretty obvious that Sony are telling the developers to overdue the power consumption since that will throttle the system.

It doesn't downclock due to the system suffering from overheating issues.

 

[bitbydeath]

just been reading about amd smartshift and saw this..

“Basically, if you were playing a game and the CPU is sitting at 3.5GHz full bore at 35% utilization (just an example) and the GPU is hitting 100% utilization but not reaching full speed because of thermal/power constraints on the entire system it can dynamically pull back the CPU and increase the GPU available power resulting in overall increase in the experience and performance.”

so is this how the ps5 will handle things?

link to where i got the text from https://wccftech.com/what-is-amds-smartshift-and-what-does-it-do/

That’s what I understand of it too but everyone keeps making up their own definitions here.

 

[tryDEATH]

Lol, kind of scary sometimes to hit reply. Cerny did say a 10% drop in power would equate to a couple percentage drop in frequency. What he didn't say is that it only takes a 3% drop to bring the gpu under 10TF.

To be more precise a drop of just 2.724% drops the GPU under 10TF.

 

[MasterCornholio]

just been reading about amd smartshift and saw this..

“Basically, if you were playing a game and the CPU is sitting at 3.5GHz full bore at 35% utilization (just an example) and the GPU is hitting 100% utilization but not reaching full speed because of thermal/power constraints on the entire system it can dynamically pull back the CPU and increase the GPU available power resulting in overall increase in the experience and performance.”

so is this how the ps5 will handle things?

link to where i got the text from https://wccftech.com/what-is-amds-smartshift-and-what-does-it-do/

It definitely is a positive. However I'm not sure what the typical CPU usage in games is.

 

[AGRacing]

Ohhhh damn @ "we would prefer it if you didn't ".

Thats big. I was under the impression it would usually be at max clocks.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Impressed by throttling? Impressed by needing a boost mode due to limitations/shortcomings of the system? If you actually knew what this unknown indie dev was saying, you'd understand how laughable it is.

Care to explain then.

What are your credentials in the field? Keen to know

 

[captainraincoat]

So a small indie developer wants some Sony cash bags....they didn’t opt for the epic games package so no 250 million or ssd comments..... maybe they could throw them a couple of thousand to talk about 3D audio

 

[thelastword]

Killzone SF looked good, don't get me wrong but a visual stalwart to this day when we got stuff like Metro Exodus, Control, RDR2 or TLOUII? Come on man.

Now I know you would show yourself quickly. Not impressed with PS5 visuals or the fact that Shadowfall is still mighty impressive today. Even Leadbetter begrudgingly said so in one of his recent videos. Shadowfall is doing things COD or BF never approach, especially it's lighting, it's character model and clothing detail are still bonkers, particle effects and general effects are still trend setting. Some of the effects I saw in Killzone, I've never seen in any other FPS this gen.

So you are not impressed with that, but you are impressed with a bland looking Control with a terrible character model. Metro is ok, but has terrible character models too. RDR has great outdoors, but has many shady textures and really subpar looking NPC's. Killzone-Shadowfall came out in 2013, boot it up now or revisit the famous screenshot thread from 2013 if you don't remember, go check it...Killzone Shadowfall is still top ten visuals this gen....

 

[Ritsumei2020]

And we've already heard from people in the know that the level to which it drops from peak isn't enough to hit something like oh I dunno... 9.2 TFlops.

PS5 is an underpowered 9TF system that runs 9TF games.

XSX is a powerful 12TF system that runs 4TF games uprezzed.

Pick your poison lol.

 

[captainraincoat]

PS5 is an underpowered 9TF system that runs 9TF games.

XSX is a powerful 12TF system that runs 4TF games uprezzed.

Pick your poison lol.

Uh oh

 

[GenericUser]

Aha, "kitatus and friends". Known for their technical achievements.

 

[Thugnificient]

Now I know you would show yourself quickly. Not impressed with PS5 visuals or the fact that Shadowfall is still mighty impressive today. Even Leadbetter begrudgingly said so in one of his recent videos. Shadowfall is doing things COD or BF never approach, especially it's lighting, it's character model and clothing detail are still bonkers, particle effects and general effects are still trend setting. Some of the effects I saw in Killzone, I've never seen in any other FPS this gen.

So you are not impressed with that, but you are impressed with a bland looking Control with a terrible character model. Metro is ok, but has terrible character models too. RDR has great outdoors, but has many shady textures and really subpar looking NPC's. Killzone-Shadowfall came out in 2013, boot it up now or revisit the famous screenshot thread from 2013 if you don't remember, go check it...Killzone Shadowfall is still top ten visuals this gen....

Yawn, I could spend a day picking apart Shadow Falls’ flaws too.
The game has been outclassed. Significantly so. That’s all there is to it.

 

[longdi]

Lol, kind of scary sometimes to hit reply. Cerny did say a 10% drop in power would equate to a couple percentage drop in frequency. What he didn't say is that it only takes a 3% drop to bring the gpu under 10TF.

haha, very sneaky of them.

I like how many posters cling on to the beliefs PS5 'variable clocks' is a smart good design thing.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Yawn, I could spend a day picking apart Shadow Falls’ flaws too.
The game has been outclassed. Significantly so. That’s all there is to it.

Anyone can claim any game has been outclassed if they decide x game is more impressive.

 

[thelastword]

According to the PlayStation 5's just-announced specifications, the 8-core 16-thread AMD Zen 2 CPU can boost up to 3.5 GHz while the custom RDNA 2 GPU can boost up to 2.23 GHz. PS5 Chief Architect Mark Cerny said these are "capped speeds". The PlayStation 5 will not boost in the same way as do regular PC CPUs or GPUs. Regular PCs and even the Xbox Series X boost based on available thermal headroom. Therefore, in places where the ambient temperature is high, one can expect throttling and loss of frame rates.

In case of the PS5, however, things are a bit different. The console is given a certain power limit based on the cooling system. Essentially, the SoC runs at a constant power, but the frequency varies depending on the workload. According to Sony, this ensures that "all PS5 consoles process the same workloads with the same performance level in any environment, no matter what the ambient temperature may be."

The PS5 looks at the overall activity the CPU and GPU are doing instead of just temperatures. To account for silicon differences, the PS5 decides on the ideal boost clock based on a "model SoC", which is sort of a reference point for every PS5. Cerny notes that the CPU and GPU do not always run at the "capped clocks". The PS5 also uses AMD SmartShift technology to send unused power from the CPU to the GPU for that added graphics boost.

This approach to boost means that the GPU can hit speeds way higher than what is traditionally seen in the PC space allowing for extracting the maximum performance from the available 36 compute units (CUs).

Link

Why doesn't the PS5 always use max GPU clocks, because it doesn't always need to. PS5 is boosting from 1Ghz to 2.23Ghz on the GPU or to 3.5GHz on the CPU. Just like a Ferrari goes from 1MPH to 200MPH based on the road.....The game is the road on PS5, if the you are driving in the city, no need to go so fast, just like the game, if it's an indie, no need to max clocks. The good thing about this design is that if your game is CPU bound, you can offset SOC power from the GPU to NOS up the CPU. The PS5 works via a constant power budget. It's has a high power ceiling based on the cooling solution and runs the PS5 cool whilst doing so, hence why you have heard how lavish the cooling system is for the system. All PS5's should be pulling the same power regardless of external conditions. That's a very smart design if I've ever seen one....

 

[NullZ3r0]

Boost Mode is this gens ESRAM.

 

[Psykodad]

If the salesman has to constantly remind me how amazing the product is, then it probably isn’t that amazing.

This isn't the salesman saying it, though.

 

[Psykodad]

just been reading about amd smartshift and saw this..

“Basically, if you were playing a game and the CPU is sitting at 3.5GHz full bore at 35% utilization (just an example) and the GPU is hitting 100% utilization but not reaching full speed because of thermal/power constraints on the entire system it can dynamically pull back the CPU and increase the GPU available power resulting in overall increase in the experience and performance.”

so is this how the ps5 will handle things?

link to where i got the text from https://wccftech.com/what-is-amds-smartshift-and-what-does-it-do/

That's how I understood it from Cerny's talk during Road to PS5.

That's also why it's a dumb narrative to state it's because the PS5 is a bottlenecked 9Tf machine.

 

[Gamerguy84]

Im a PS guy through but thats a weird comment. What possibilities does it open?

I think the console was designed for smart shift from the ground up and not put in later after hearing about 12TF.

Its just a way to get more performance out of existing HW. Doesnt maytter in the end as the console is a beast of a mschine.

 

[longdi]

Im a PS guy through but thats a weird comment. What possibilities does it open?

I think the console was designed for smart shift from the ground up and not put in later after hearing about 12TF.

Its just a way to get more performance out of existing HW. Doesnt maytter in the end as the console is a beast of a mschine.

smartshift is just further advancement of how apu works. You have this big monolithic die consisting of gpu+cpu in your total control. Of course you want to improve on how they interfaced with each other.

the 'variable clocks' marketing though, is imo, a result of hearing about the 12TF.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

This makes sense and the more i think about it, the more sense it makes.

When i get in my car, it doesn't turn on and smash 6000RPM straight away, i control the speed depending on what im doing; motorway driving, parking, tootling around town.

There's no need for the PS5, or any console, to be going max chat in a menu or having a CPU/GPU idle while the other is toeing its' bollox off.

As for the Tflop dick-dangling, this isn't like the resolution wars of this gen, go play TLoU2 on a 1.8TF machine on a 2013 laptop CPU and tell me how much you care about TF.

 

[Great Hair]

Maybe

it will overheat

they need to balance

heat issue

 

[-Arcadia-]

Lol, kind of scary sometimes to hit reply. Cerny did say a 10% drop in power would equate to a couple percentage drop in frequency. What he didn't say is that it only takes a 3% drop to bring the gpu under 10TF.

Tech rookie here, be gentle.

I remember the part about the power/frequency, but where was it said that the console can dip under 10TF easily? My impression was that this variation would have very little effect on the output of the GPU and CPU.

Not trying to catch you out, not a warrior for any side, just someone who wants to learn.

 

[Vroadstar]

haha, very sneaky of them.

I like how many posters cling on to the beliefs PS5 'variable clocks' is a smart good design thing.

The definition of basement-dwelling armchair system architect right here

 

[Thugnificient]

Tech rookie here, be gentle.

I remember the part about the power/frequency, but where was it said that the console can dip under 10TF easily? My impression was that this variation would have very little effect on the output of the GPU and CPU.

Not trying to catch you out, not a warrior for any side, just someone who wants to learn.

He never said the console could drop under 10TF easily. He said it only takes 3% for it to drop under 10TF which is true.

Now whether or not it can stay above that figure most of the time remains to be seen.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

This whole boost mode thing sounds so sketchy to me.
They really cannot complain people think that this was just a scheme to up the TF count.

 

[-Arcadia-]

He never said the console could drop under 10TF easily. He said it only takes 3% for it to drop under 10TF which is true.

Which... is pretty easily, going by your own wording.

I don't ultimately care, the PS5 games so far have been gorgeous, but it is of note. I guess I missed that part in the presentation.

 

[Thugnificient]

Which... is pretty easily, going by your own wording.

I don't ultimately care, the PS5 games so far have been gorgeous, but it is of note. I guess I missed that part in the presentation.

Because 3% is a small percentage, hence "only".

 

[Dnice1]

Tech rookie here, be gentle.

I remember the part about the power/frequency, but where was it said that the console can dip under 10TF easily? My impression was that this variation would have very little effect on the output of the GPU and CPU.

Not trying to catch you out, not a warrior for any side, just someone who wants to learn.

Cerny wouldn't go into detail about how far the GPU would drop its frequency. Even in the interview with DF he dodge the question when John gave him a hypothetical. He only said at the road map reveal that a 10% drop in power yields "a couple of percentage" drops in frequency.

Well if you do the math a 3% drop in frequency is 2.16Ghz. So just 67Mhz drop from the 2.23Ghz cap of the PS5 GPU makes it less than 10TF (9.98TF).

 

[Bogroll]

Yes you can slow the PS5 down to stop it overheating hence less noise, then you can have 10.28 TF available sometimes.
But TF don't matter do they.

 

[Thugnificient]

Cerny wouldn't go into detail about how far the GPU would drop its frequency. Even in the interview with DF he dodge the question when John gave him a hypothetical. He only said at the road map reveal that a 10% drop in power yields "a couple of percentage" drops in frequency.

Well if you do the math a 3% drop in frequency is 2.16Ghz. So just 67Mhz drop from the 2.23Ghz cap of the PS5 GPU makes it less than 10TF (9.98TF).

Whatever the case I don’t see the performance difference being that big. In a worst case scenario, I could see the PS5’s GPU being 30% slower. Otherwise probably in the 25-10% range.

 

[Psykodad]

He never said the console could drop under 10TF easily. He said it only takes 3% for it to drop under 10TF which is true.

Now whether or not it can stay above that figure most of the time remains to be seen.

Cerny clearly stated that it runs at or around 10.28 most of the time and only needs to drop in worst-case scenarios.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

The mental gymnastics in here are something else. Amazing. Keep up the good fight, Sony fans!

 

[Thugnificient]

Cerny clearly stated that it runs at or around 10.28 most of the time and only needs to drop in worst-case scenarios.

Don’t remember his exact words but he said something to that effect.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

The mental gymnastics in here are something else. Amazing. Keep up the good fight, Sony fans!

How are the Sony fans the ones doing mental gymnastics? OP is in praise of the PS5 hardware from a dev so to construe it as negative is what requires any sort of mental gymnastics.

 

[Bogroll]

Cerny clearly stated that it runs at or around 10.28 most of the time and only needs to drop in worst-case scenarios.

I would say "worst-case scenarios" is when you need to call upon the power.

 

[Psykodad]

I would say "worst-case scenarios" is when you need to call upon the power.

Yeah, that's why you can downclock the chip that isn't being maxed to give the other that little extra.

Because going by all info on game development, in practice you won't (ever) see both CPU and GPU being fully utilized simultaneously.

 

[TheGrat1]

I am pretty sure it is just a heat management solution. Not designed to help devs do anything. Right? :/

 

[Bogroll]

Yeah, that's why you can downclock the chip that isn't being maxed to give the other that little extra.

Because going by all info on game development, in practice you won't (ever) see both CPU and GPU being fully utilized simultaneously.

I don't know why they felt the need to even mention it then. If it saved a good deal of power as in watts, fair enough but i'm not sure it does. Maybe they should have just said 10.2TF save the confusion or maybe it drops below that in demanding situations.

 

[BigLee74]

???

The GPU is never gonna go above the max 10.2 TF, and the CPU is never gonna go above the max 3.5 Ghz.

And they'll never run at that together.

Functionality purely to stop the product from bursting into flames. Maybe they should put that as a selling point on the brochure?

 

[Psykodad]

I don't know why they felt the need to even mention it then. If it saved a good deal of power as in watts, fair enough but i'm not sure it does. Maybe they should have just said 10.2TF save the confusion or maybe it drops below that in demanding situations.

But that's what they (Cerny) said.

It's designed to prevent issues with environmental influences that might cause heating and performance issues. That's why they took a reverse approach to what is typically being done (like MS does with XSX by having fixed clockspeeds).
Going by Cerny's talk.

Probably as a result from the PS4 noise complaints.

 

[turtlepowa]

What the?? Yesterday ended my 2 weeks ban for saying PS5 has 9TF and now it's fine or what?

 

[supernova8]

Both Sony and Microsoft are either directly contributing to or enabling the following:

"It's great! No, really! Bloody great! Did I mention how great it is?!"
"Just show me some actual gameplay, actual game...play... the game... being played..... not a gameplay trailer"
"Yeah mate... I will! Bloody hell hold on... keep your knickers on.... in the mean time... let me just tell you how great it is!"

That's it, outside.

 

[GHG]

If the salesman has to constantly remind me how amazing the product is, then it probably isn’t that amazing.

 

[Sony]

From what I understand (and I could be wrong). It’s about shifting power from CPU to GPU and vice versa. So for example in times when the CPU is under utilised it can shift its remaining power to the GPU enhancing it beyond its top power level.

It can of course shift the other way too when devs require it.

You're wrong. Neither the CPU or GPU are enhanced beyond their top power level. They are enhanced to reach their top power/ max clocks. This interview made it clear, as is expected, that Boosting Clocks is a scene specific flexibility given to developers and even the person that is interviewed said that this should be done incidentally and not sustained. So as others, I would like to know what the PS5's Sustained Performance number is.

 

[Shodan09]

Boosting from what performance? What is the performance that this architecture can actually sustain? And needing to boost to the max means you would be working below the 10.2TF max performance the whole time and only boost to that so you can "overachieve"? And I'm risking a ban for saying that this thing is not a 10TF console?
As for the link between variable clock rates and better asynchronous programming this guy needs to make a better attempt at explaining it, because he rambled a lot and said nothing.

I wondered about this! Is it 10tf at maximum boost meaning for the majority of the time it's less than that, or is 10tf the minimum and it can boost past that in certain situations. It would have to be a hell of a boost to make up a 2tf difference lol.

 

[Psykodad]

I wondered about this! Is it 10tf at maximum boost meaning for the majority of the time it's less than that, or is 10tf the minimum and it can boost past that in certain situations. It would have to be a hell of a boost to make up a 2tf difference lol.

It is 10.28Tf most of the time, but in rare cases where either the CPU or GPU would throttle due to workload, one chip can be downclocked so the struggling chip can maintain max clockspeed.


That's what I understand from Cerny's talk, but feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Bogroll]

But that's what they (Cerny) said.

It's designed to prevent issues with environmental influences that might cause heating and performance issues. That's why they took a reverse approach to what is typically being done (like MS does with XSX by having fixed clockspeeds).
Going by Cerny's talk.

Probably as a result from the PS4 noise complaints.

As well that conference wasn't really meant for us, but we magnify things on here.

 

[phil_t98]

why is boosting better than sustained performance? I mean the ps4 and ps4pro have sustained performance. what will boosting it mean for us? and if they talking about boosting it to get max TF what is the number they boosting from?