GravityInsanity
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I don't care what anyone says, I want BC. Please Sony!
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PlayStation Meeting announced. September 7th 3PM ET (PS4 Neo Reveal)
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EdReedFan20
Member
That would be awesome. Though, to make it even better, how about PSP (digital) and Vita/PSTV (digital) support?
420lbs ayyyy.
No doubt, but he/she sure as shit ain't winning that swimsuit contest.
that's not the reason. NEO would not have BC to begin with, its a PS4, PS4 can't handle it.
I laughed harder at this than I should have
Neo could ostensibly have the power to do it in software, but that would also mean select titles only and possibly no disc support.Inuhanyou said:
I still think if Sony wants to send the message about PSN platform, that would be a better way to show it than they've done so far, but then again, they may not care.
Most likely not. :lol
Who is BRock?
dragonzdogma
Member
The sky is the limit my friend
No it could not.
The fact of the matter is, emulating CELL via software is impossible for the PS4 hardware in general both CPU and GPU wise. It can't emulate the SPU's.
Your talking about disc support like that matters to emulation or not. A disc is just a disc, a piece of plastic to house the software.
Cerny's PS4 presentation was wonderful. I would be so happy to see another of those, especially since this is likely to be a more tech heavy presentation focused at the hardcore audience.
Hexa
Member
This is highly unlikely to be related to PS3-> PS4 emulation as the PS3's processor is clocked higher than what clocks Jaguar can reasonably clock to. It's almost certainly PS4 Vanilla -> Neo.
truth be told
NotSmartEnough
Member
Your parents had to sleep with other parents and temps to get you a PS2 for Christmas?
I love my kids, but there are limits to what I'd do to secure Christmas gifts for them...
recklesscognition
Member
Wonder how many of these things Sony plans to sell. If they're still pumping out 5k a day, they've likely built up about 500,000 units by now and could have 750 in October, 1 million+ in November if on current schedule.
Didn't the PS4 have about 1-2 million available on release?
I'd be shocked if they weren't ready to drop Neo October 13th and have an easy 750k on hand produced.
Didn't the PS4 have about 1-2 million available on release?
I'd be shocked if they weren't ready to drop Neo October 13th and have an easy 750k on hand produced.
Negotiator
Member
I've said it before: what about the Radeon CUs?
They're SIMD-like cores, just like the SPUs. It doesn't make any sense to emulate SPUs with the CPU. The CPU is probably adequate for emulating the PPE/PPU (MS has proved this).
SolidSnakex
Member
They had a million available for launch in the US and a bit less than that in Europe. But after the European launch they announced that they'd sold 2.1m units. So in less than a month they were able to produce that many units.
The patent in question must relate to Base mode for PS4 titles. Spoofing performance by tinkering with the clock makes sense for an architecturally compatible system where you're natively executing code designed for something with different performance characteristics, but it's nonsense in the context of emulating a completely different architecture.
Of course that's not proof that emulation isn't coming for older systems. The strongest counter argument on that front is almost certainly the existence of other business models to address the same demand (PS Now, remasters, and PS2 Classics..)
Indeed, I could listen to this guy talk for hours.
PS4 Slim, PS4 Neo and the PS Trinity presentation.
I can dream.
You might want to read through that patent application again.
NotSmartEnough
Member
I'm not going to try to do maths, but I thought they would be supply constrained at launch.
To come up with those stock figures when do you think they started full-scale production?
Your saying, use GPGPU like the SPU's? Makes no sense to me because Cell's architecture is nothing similar. Making that work would be a nightmare because GPU computations via GPGPU are limited in comparison to what the SPU's could do.
Also, we should not be comparing Xenon to Cell, its a non starter.
Binary translation a la Microsoft is definitely sufficient to run the PPU code. SPU code is a much bigger problem, not so much because of the amount of computation, but because the algorithms embodied in code are explicit about their use of tremendous amounts of local bandwidth to per-SPU embedded memory and DMA. Each SPU had a dedicated 50GB/sec channel to its own limited pool of RAM. The combined 300GB/sec bandwidth exceeds the total memory bandwidth available on the leaked Neo specs, and that's before you consider the OS use of a 7th SPU, DMA transfers between pools, and the PPE and GPU's needs. It's a non-starter without some borderline magical analysis or per-title reworking.
but Lady Gaia, Microsoft figured out how to emulate 360, certainly that means Sony can do the same with PS3
I'm kidding
gundamkyoukai
Member
Of course he\she is winning there are the only person i care about lol.
I am one system guy now.
Negotiator
Member
Yeap. Modern GPUs are fully programmable, so maybe it could work.
People may say that it's "impossible", but the same has been said about zfreeze (an arcane feature of the GameCube Flipper GPU). Dolphin programmers managed to emulate it with 100% success rate in modern era hardware.
Why not? They share the same PowerPC core (PPE/PPU).
Cell = 1 PPE + 8 SPUs
Xenon = 3 PPEs + 0 SPUs
There's probably a fair number of titles, especially from the first couple years of the PS3's lifespan and PSN titles, that never touch the SPUs. Of the ones that do, a decent chunk of them are probably just using standard Sony libraries for things like geometry acceleration and audio, which an emulator might be able to swap out with native code, depending on how the PS3 SDK handles libraries.
Of course, the games that do use the SPUs a lot are the ones people are most likely to want to play.
The Cell SPUs are clocked much faster than any GPU core, and it's generally difficult to split up an algorithm across multiple cores. The only reason out-of-order CPUs get away with it is they throw a ton of transistors at the problem, it's not something you can reasonably do in real time in software.
NotSmartEnough
Member
We've had plenty of posts saying how impractical it is to emulate Cell using Jaguar, but the prize goes to Lady Gaia for clarity and technical insight.
Please can we park the PS3 BC discussion? It's OT and not going to happen. Please?
Negotiator
Member
Fair enough. Sounds like the Xbone eSRAM emulation issue (>200GB/s of memory bandwidth) or even the eDRAM emulation (48GB/s) of the PS2.
So, maybe all we need is a fast enough RAM (GDDR5X, GDDR6, HBM2 etc.) to pull it off.
Negotiator
Member
Fun fact: fan-favorite games that do use the SPUs a lot (like the Uncharted Trilogy or TLOU) have already been remastered, so there's no need to emulate them.
Yeah, but the Jaguar CPU has almost half the frequency of PowerPC CPUs (like Xenon) and MS managed to emulate it, despite against all odds.
Also, according to Eurogamer, the 3.2 GHz frequency is basically 1.6 GHz x 2 due to Hyperthreading (1 PPE core supports 2 threads).
They could have more powerful Vector Unit as a co-processor on the APU & need to clock it lower for PS3 SPE ,PS2 VU0/VU1 & PS1 GTE emulation
Hexa
Member
SPEs are 3.2 GHz. Clocking higher than that in consumer electronics is a terrible idea for various reasons.
Negotiator
Member
3.2 GHz @ 90nm. A 14nm Cell could reach 3.2 GHz easily with low power consumption...
But yeah, I don't think AMD/Sony would ever add an exotic element in their APU design. It would also need a dedicated Rambus/XDR pool, which means more PCB traces on the mobo.
Efficient 4k, what is that? Poor mans 4k or a new rendering method? Image reconstruction?
It's nice to want things. Doubt there will be mandates for 1080/60 etc, devs are free to do what they want with the hardware. I doubt true 4k will be achievable, but a respectable resolution output should be manageable. As for BC with PS3, pretty sure it won't happen. The rest I naturally expect.
I'm with #team$499
I'm also hoping they make a higher build quality controller.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Edit:!ignore me. Back to sleep
Fair enough. Sounds like the Xbone eSRAM emulation issue (>200GB/s of memory bandwidth) or even the eDRAM emulation (48GB/s) of the PS2.
So, maybe all we need is a fast enough RAM (GDDR5X, GDDR6, HBM2 etc.) to pull it off.
Basically, you need a GPU with cores as fast as a Cell SPU with SIMD instructions as powerful as the Cell ones, assuming you have enough extra CPU cores lying around to translate the instructions.
Or get AMD to shove a few into the redesigned CPU. If they can emulate the rest of the system, it shouldn't be too bad since talking to the SPUs had to go through a special software interface anyway. If AMD doesn't have to keep the XDR interface, it should be a lot easier to shrink. And it's not like a modern SoC couldn't use a few extra stream processors.
Just remembered how the Neo has an extra 512 MB of RAM available for games that no one knew where it came from... it's unrelated since it'd be difficult to use a separate memory pool for a framebuffer for modern game engines (iirc that's what was recommended), but it's an amusing coincidence. And if it's not a separate memory pool, then it wouldn't have anything to do with PS3 BC.
That's true, but unfortunately the 1.6 x 2 doesn't really apply to the Cell SPUs. They really are 3.2 GHz stream computing monsters, which is the worst part.
Negotiator
Member
The thing is, the Cell design is considered obsolete ever since GPGPU was invented.
Those transistors could be better spent by adding more Radeon CUs.
I never understood why Neo has an extra 512MB of RAM. It's still 8GB, not 8.5GB, right? 256-bit bus and all that.
They could release that amount of memory for the OG PS4 as well. They released RAM for the PS3 too with SDK updates.
AMD GCN CPUs don't overclock that well, even at 14nm. :\
nVidia GPUs have a better chance to reach 3+ GHz frequencies in the distant future (7nm, Volta and beyond)... maybe in 5-10 years from now we'll have a working, real-time SPU emulator for high-end PCs.
I'm at work. Won't be able to watch it for like six hours after it airs
I hope I don't miss preorders
gundamkyoukai
Member
I was under the impression this had been explicitly released from the pool reserved for use by the OS and secondary apps like media players. Presumably Sony knew their roadmap would require titles to have larger framebuffers and intermediate render targets in Neo mode and set aside some of the reserved pool for exactly this purpose. If they hadn't done so it would be tough to patch an existing title for Neo mode without revisiting memory management in general for the title.
They would all take turns rotating in the line to hop in the car and get warm.
This was before Walmart was open 24/7, this was also before pre-orders ever existed. When the only thing a kid wants on his list from santa is a PS2......you cannot deliver an IOU.
Now a days getting items and electronics is obviously a little bit easier lol
I'm at work. Won't be able to watch it for like six hours after it airs
I hope I don't miss preorders
Cerny is a joy to listen, the guy is so knowledgeable everything he says is so interesting, i hope he leads the conference next week
I hope for the opposite.I don't care what anyone says, I want BC. Please Sony!
BC can go eat shit. I hope they ditch it if they were contemplating it. Give me a console minus BC for $50/100/whatever.
The Road to PS4 was absolutely was one of the most enjoyable conferences to listen to.
The guys knowledge, enthusiasm and love for tech is absolutely amazing and even if you know little to none hes amazing to listen to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHXrBnipHyA
you won't even skip a second, dude knows how to speak
Negotiator
Member
I don't understand why Cerny has vanished ever since the PS4 was released. We need more of him.
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