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[ItsDorf]

I like the word "Up Rendering" for all us NON-technical people it's makes sense. The games are taken from a 1080p resolution and up-rendered to a 4K resolution. How that happens is irrelevant.

So many people on here want to be smart. This is a game forum not a penis measuring contest!

PS as for trade in absolutely they will happen. Gamestop wants you to trade in your PS4 for $100.00 and spend another 299.99 for a new system. Than they will sell your $100 trade for 200.00 and make double income of you! (I know all companies do this just saying they will offer one be patient)

 

[0ptimusPayne]

We need a trade in program.

Depending on where you live, theres always been some form of trade in "deal" from retailers like gamestop for the last couple of years. Im sure they'll have some upgrade trade incentive, even though it may not be worth it to some..

 

[Chamber]

We need a trade in program.

What's the difference between that and just trading the thing in at Gamestop or Amazon? Sony certainly has no interest in stockpiling old PS4's.

 

[msdstc]

What's the difference between that and just trading the thing in at Gamestop or Amazon? Sony certainly has no interest in stockpiling old PS4's.

It's a loyalty program to incentive trading up

 

[Aces&Eights]

I like the word "Up Rendering" for all us NON-technical people it's makes sense. The games are taken from a 1080p resolution and up-rendered to a 4K resolution. How that happens is irrelevant.

So many people on here want to be smart. This is a game forum not a penis measuring contest!

PS as for trade in absolutely they will happen. Gamestop wants you to trade in your PS4 for $100.00 and spend another 299.99 for a new system. Than they will sell your $100 trade for 200.00 and make double income of you! (I know all companies do this just saying they will offer one be patient)

Depends on if the OG PS4 gets a significant price drop. If Sony drops it to $199, you will not get 100 bucks from Gamestop. Probably $50.00.

 

[Hexa]

I like the word "Up Rendering" for all us NON-technical people it's makes sense. The games are taken from a 1080p resolution and up-rendered to a 4K resolution. How that happens is irrelevant.

First of all, no one is using the term uprendering for going from 1080p to 4K. Right now it's being used for rendering where you don't render the entire frame and use extrapolation based on previous frames to render the rest, which is a cost saving technique. Earlier, and originally as per the Sony patent, it was used for a technique where you render at higher resolutions while simulating lower resolutions by essentially rendering the same frame in slightly different ways and combining the frames, which costs more but is helpful when dealing with emulation with things hard coded to resolutions.

What you seem to be describing is upscaling, a term that no one is really arguing over.

Furthermore, language is only useful as far as it can convey information. Even if you like a word and think it should mean something, you can't just use it for whatever you want because no one else will understand it as such.

So many people on here want to be smart. This is a game forum not a penis measuring contest!

This is an enthusiast game forum. Games are closely tied with technology. To say that this isn't a forum for discussing the technical aspects is absurd. If you don't care about the nitty gritty that's fine, but attempting to chastise others for your own ignorance makes you look like a moron.

 

[Caayn]

onQ has been using it for different things, but it was originally brought up in a Sony patent application where they defined the term and explained how it works:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160005344A1/en

As far as I know that is the only use in industry of the word uprendering.

Which goes completely against the use of the word uprendering by him as that is more computational heavy than simply rendering at that resolution.

I like the word "Up Rendering" for all us NON-technical people it's makes sense. The games are taken from a 1080p resolution and up-rendered to a 4K resolution. How that happens is irrelevant.

There's already a word for what you describe: upscaling.

So many people on here want to be smart. This is a game forum not a penis measuring contest!

When using terminology it's important to use it correctly to avoid confusion.

 

[onQ123]

I'd love for once to see a clear and unambiguous definition of the term "up render". Right now, and since its inception, the definition bounced all over the place. If you make up a term at least be consistent and don't change it depending on how the wind is blowing.
Do you mean TXAA?

onQ has been using it for different things, but it was originally brought up in a Sony patent application where they defined the term and explained how it works:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160005344A1/en

As far as I know that is the only use in industry of the word uprendering.

I haven't changed the meaning of the word

Up-rendering is not limited to this method. no matter how it's done if the PS4 games that are 1080P get rendered in 4K it's up-rendering & no I'm not talking about scaling the 1080P image to the output resolution.

 

[Hexa]

I haven't changed the meaning of the word

Do you have any examples of it being used that broadly anywhere else? Or used in any way different from how its being used in the Sony patent that is sufficiently different enough to be used as a basis for being so absolute in it having such a broad definition?
Also, that is a tremendously broad definition. Also how are you using the word "render"? Would you consider this uprendering? http://vision.ucla.edu/papers/ayvaciJLCS12.pdf (just read the intro).

 

[Vidal]

We need a trade in program.

Uptrading your PS4 to a ps4k

 

[lupinko]

Wait, Neo is coming out next year now?

 

[AmyS]

Wait, Neo is coming out next year now?

We will know the release date in less than 3 weeks.

I expect sometime in October or November.

 

[Curufinwe]

We need a trade in program.

That's what big box stores are for.

 

[maximum360]

Uptrading your PS4 to a ps4k

LOL

 

[Metfanant]

onQ has been using it for different things, but it was originally brought up in a Sony patent application where they defined the term and explained how it works:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160005344A1/en

As far as I know that is the only use in industry of the word uprendering.

And I still maintain that it's basically a made up word by Sony to go along with this patent...

They can call it whatever they want but in essence what you're dealing with is an elaborate method of scaling an original image (render) to a higher resolution image..

Nothing is really being "rendered" (certainly not anything resembling a native render) at a higher resolution...you're dealing with an image, and then shifting the pixels to give you multiple versions of the original, then putting them back together...

You're still at the moment and of the day only dealing with the same amount of natively rendered pixels as the original image...it's an elaborate upscaling method that uses a reconstruction technique

It's a loyalty program to incentive trading up

The problem is the PS4 is not being replaced, the Neo is supposed to live along side it...Sony doesn't really gain anything by collecting piles of old ps4's and giving you a Neo for cheap...

I like the word "Up Rendering" for all us NON-technical people it's makes sense. The games are taken from a 1080p resolution and up-rendered to a 4K resolution. How that happens is irrelevant.

So many people on here want to be smart. This is a game forum not a penis measuring contest!

PS as for trade in absolutely they will happen. Gamestop wants you to trade in your PS4 for $100.00 and spend another 299.99 for a new system. Than they will sell your $100 trade for 200.00 and make double income of you! (I know all companies do this just saying they will offer one be patient)

You might like the word, but it just adds confusion to a technical discussion

Wait, Neo is coming out next year now?

huh?

 

[serversurfer]

First of all, no one is using the term uprendering for going from 1080p to 4K. Right now it's being used for rendering where you don't render the entire frame and use extrapolation based on previous frames to render the rest, which is a cost saving technique. Earlier, and originally as per the Sony patent, it was used for a technique where you render at higher resolutions while simulating lower resolutions by essentially rendering the same frame in slightly different ways and combining the frames, which costs more but is helpful when dealing with emulation with things hard coded to resolutions.

If you're referring to the patent you linked, it doesn't describe rendering each frame multiple times. It talks about taking a finished frame — described in the patent as the "source image" — and "uprendering" it by creating multiple, shifted copies of said frame, and then combining them in to a higher-resolution output than the source image.

This is all done after-the-fact though, and would work on a Blu-ray just as well as it would on a game. In fact, Claim 17 describes an apparatus — likely in the form of a DSP — which can perform all of the claims in the patent, given a source of "multimedia content" to process.

 

[Hexa]

And I still maintain that it's basically a made up word by Sony to go along with this patent...

Patent applicants are "entitled to be his or her own lexicographers", so they are free to make up terms and what not at their leisure. Sometimes they do it just to fuck with the examiners. >_>

As far as I can tell, you're absolutely right on that. If uprendering was the proper term, it would certainly have more hits when it comes to patents or IEEE entries or something. But other than the Sony patent, there really isn't anything.

If you're referring to the patent you linked, it doesn't describe rendering each frame multiple times. It talks about taking a finished frame — described in the patent as the "source image" — and "uprendering" it by creating multiple, shifted copies of said frame, and then combining them in to a higher-resolution output than the source image.

This is all done after-the-fact though, and would work on a Blu-ray just as well as it would on a game. In fact, Claim 17 describes an apparatus — likely in the form of a DSP — which can perform all of the claims in the patent, given a source of "multimedia content" to process.

My bad. I was thinking of something else that was brought up way back when the uprendering discussion started. >_>
Including that, those are the three definitions that have been used so far for uprendering here so far I think.

 

[Metfanant]

If you're referring to the patent you linked, it doesn't describe rendering each frame multiple times. It talks about taking a finished frame — described in the patent as the "source image" — and "uprendering" it by creating multiple, shifted copies of said frame, and then combining them in to a higher-resolution output than the source image.

This is all done after-the-fact though, and would work on a Blu-ray just as well as it would on a game. In fact, Claim 17 describes an apparatus — likely in the form of a DSP — which can perform all of the claims in the patent, given a source of "multimedia content" to process.

Correct...the rendering is done once in that case...at the original resolution, then you construct the higher resolution image from the shifter copies of the original...

Call or what you want, but at the end of the day it falls under the umbrella term of upscaling...which by definition is moving from a lower resolution to a higher resolution...

There are infinite ways to achieve the goal of increasing an images resolution for final output, this is one of them...

Patent applicants are "entitled to be his or her own lexicographers", so they are free to make up terms and what not at their leisure. Sometimes they do it just to fuck the the examiners. >_>

As far as I can tell, you're absolutely right on that. If uprendering was the proper term, it would certainly have more hits when it comes to patents or IEEE entries or something. But other than the Sony patent, there really isn't anything.



My bad. I was thinking of something else that was brought up way back when the uprendering discussion started. >_>

exactly...I used this example WAAYYYY back when this first came up...

Many cars have all-wheel drive...there are many ways to achieve this...and each and every manufacturer has their own proprietary method of doing so, and the call it whatever the hell they want...

Quattro
SH-AWD
X-Drive
4 Matic

They are all systems for driving a vehicle with all four wheels, and all do it differently...

This Sony patent, is another way of achieving the end goal of scaling an originally rendered image from a lower resolution to a higher resolution

 

[Hexa]

exactly...I used this example WAAYYYY back when this first came up...

Many cars have all-wheel drive...there are many ways to achieve this...and each and every manufacturer has their own proprietary method of doing so, and the call it whatever the hell they want...

Quattro
SH-AWD
X-Drive
4 Matic

They are all systems for driving a vehicle with all four wheels, and all do it differently...

This Sony patent, is another way of achieving the end goal of scaling an originally rendered image from a lower resolution to a higher resolution

I decided to look into it a bit more, the patent Sony application filed was deemed to have the same subject matter as this patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US7668398
Which to me is much more clearly upscaling, though they decided to call it upsampling. lol

Makes how this whole thing started seem kind of dumb. xD

 

[LurkFish17]

So where is everyone at now on spec rumors? I'm a bit behind the loop as these threads were moving fast for awhile.

 

[Metfanant]

So where is everyone at now on spec rumors? I'm a bit behind the loop as these threads were moving fast for awhile.

I would say the most likely scenario, is somewhere between the originally rumored 4.2tf and maybe 4.5tf with some tweaks...

I wouldn't be SHOCKED to find that there was either an increase in memory bandwidth or the amount of memory, or both...but nothing really drastic..

I would NOT expect to see anything approaching 5tf or higher

 

[Inuhanyou]

So where is everyone at now on spec rumors? I'm a bit behind the loop as these threads were moving fast for awhile.

My guess is, the same GPU clock and speed as original leaks. the CPU downclocked to 2.0GHZ effective. Same amount of RAM, bandwidth 218 GB/s

 

[StrongBlackVine]

A Sony sponsored trade-in program is not happening. Why would Sony buy up a bunch old PS4s when the Neo is not intended to replace it? They don't care which PS4 you own as long you keep buying games and using their services. If you want decent value for your PS4 sell it yourself. This goes for anything game related. People trading video games products in to Gamestop are either idiots, lazy or completely uninformed.

 

[Electret]

I decided to look into it a bit more, the patent Sony application filed was deemed to have the same subject matter as this patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US7668398
Which to me is much more clearly upscaling, though they decided to call it upsampling. lol

Makes how this whole thing started seem kind of dumb. xD

I'm assuming you're basing the idea that the two applications are similar based on a USPTO rejection. If I assume correctly, a friendly FYI: no conclusions regarding the similarity of two applications can be assumed based on a USPTO rejection. They are merely procedural; sometimes the Office's allegations are true, sometimes they are not (and often are disingenuous!). So, in this case, Sony's method could indeed overlap with HP's, or could be completely different. You'd have to read the two applications to fairly determine that.

 

[Futurematic]

the CPU downclocked to 2.0GHZ effective.

Why so? FinFET has proved a solid performer on clock speed bumps. Jaguar could go 2 GHz on 28nm, jumping to (despite being basically 22nm Intel) 14nm GloFo is still a full node upgrade and should enable 2.1 GHz easily. If anything I consider a bump to 2.2-3 GHz and freeing up more OS RAM the most likely upgrades (~maybe 4.5TF GPU)… though I honestly think the Neo will match the leaks exactly

 

[Lady Gaia]

Wait, Neo is coming out next year now?

I presume you're talking about the thread title. Check the date on the OP – this is an old thread that has been recently bumped.

 

[AmyS]

Why so? FinFET has proved a solid performer on clock speed bumps. Jaguar could go 2 GHz on 28nm, jumping to (despite being basically 22nm Intel) 14nm GloFo is still a full node upgrade and should enable 2.1 GHz easily. If anything I consider a bump to 2.2-3 GHz and freeing up more OS RAM the most likely upgrades (~maybe 4.5TF GPU)… though I honestly think the Neo will match the leaks exactly

Agreed about FinFET.

I'm expecting Neo's Jaguar CPUs to be 2.2 GHz minimum.

Edit: Sticking with even numbers, 2.2 or 2.4 GHz.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Why so? FinFET has proved a solid performer on clock speed bumps. Jaguar could go 2 GHz on 28nm, jumping to (despite being basically 22nm Intel) 14nm GloFo is still a full node upgrade and should enable 2.1 GHz easily. If anything I consider a bump to 2.2-3 GHz and freeing up more OS RAM the most likely upgrades (~maybe 4.5TF GPU)… though I honestly think the Neo will match the leaks exactly

Oh,i'm sure the CPU could take 2.1 and even above if Sony pushed it. I just hate odd values. Stick to even numbers dammit. And considering that jaguar goes up significantly in heat and wattage the higher you upclock it from 1.8 i think, i doubt they want to worry about pushing things too far

 

[Futurematic]

Stick to even numbers dammit. And considering that jaguar goes up significantly in heat and wattage the higher you upclock it from 1.8 i think, i doubt they want to worry about pushing things too far

Agreed, 2.2 it is! Lol. Yeah but that's Jaguar 28nm, the 14nm version even if otherwise unchanged can still clock higher simply by process improvements, you can't extrapolate Jaguar28 to 14.

 

[AmyS]

Agreed, 2.2 it is! Lol. Yeah but that's Jaguar 28nm, the 14nm version even if otherwise unchanged can still clock higher simply by process improvements, you can't extrapolate Jaguar28 to 14.

2.2 is best bet!

 

[Marlenus]

Oh,i'm sure the CPU could take 2.1 and even above if Sony pushed it. I just hate odd values. Stick to even numbers dammit. And considering that jaguar goes up significantly in heat and wattage the higher you upclock it from 1.8 i think, i doubt they want to worry about pushing things too far

This is where puma helped, it meant the chip could run at 2.0Ghz while consuming the same power as the older version at 1.6Ghz.

Take the learnings from those layout enhancements and shrink the chip and you should be able to hit 2.6 GHz at around the same power consumption or less than the current jaguar in PS4.

Combined with the very low GPU clock this suggests the power consumption will be coming down, despite the extra needed to power the higher speed GDDR5.

Wouldn't surprise me if they use the same cooling solution so are trying to shave some wattage off the APU to make the system quieter.

I'd hey wanted to increase clocks I think the power and yield headroom is there so it's possible, just not sure by how much.

 

[ZoyosJD]

I haven't changed the meaning of the word

Up-rendering is not limited to this method. no matter how it's done if the PS4 games that are 1080P get rendered in 4K it's up-rendering & no I'm not talking about scaling the 1080P image to the output resolution.

"Uprendering" is absolutely limited to Sony's method as their paper provides the formal patented definition of it.

You can't say that any methodology to go from 1080p to 4k is automatically "uprendering" when sony has already defined what "uprendering" is in their papers.

The method that sony defined as "uprendering" is computationally more expensive than a native render. It's clear from current expectations the neo won't be able to handle a 4k native render of modern AAA games. Ergo, the neo "uprendering" to 4k is even moreso impossible.

Temporal Frame Assimilation (TFA; ill call it this as it is simple, easy, self-descriptive, and widely inclusive) has many different methods including "uprendering", checkerboard rendering, and the various other methods used like in Killzone: SF's MP or Quantum Break.

"Uprendering" is simply too inefficient of a form of TFA to even be considered for the task being suggested.

 

[anothertech]

2.2 is best bet!

I'm going 2.4! It's still even right?

 

[AmyS]

I'm going 2.4! It's still even right?

Hell yeah!

 

[Inuhanyou]

"Uprendering" is absolutely limited to Sony's method as their paper provides the formal patented definition of it.

You can't say that any methodology to go from 1080p to 4k is automatically "uprendering" when sony has already defined what "uprendering" is in their papers.

The method that sony defined as "uprendering" is computationally more expensive than a native render. It's clear from current expectations the neo won't be able to handle a 4k native render of modern AAA games. Ergo, the neo "uprendering" to 4k is even moreso impossible.

Temporal Frame Assimilation (TFA; ill call it this as it is simple, easy, self-descriptive, and widely inclusive) has many different methods including "uprendering", checkerboard rendering, and the various other methods used like in Killzone: SF's MP or Quantum Break.

"Uprendering" is simply too inefficient of a form of TFA to even be considered for the task being suggested.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Your basically saying Sony documented all those slides about the technique because they have no idea what they are talking about and it was even less possible than native rendering a 4K image in the first place? What?

Then why even bother documenting such a thing if, according to your claims it was never possible and is not even in the cards?

 

[ZoyosJD]

That doesn't make any sense at all. Your basically saying Sony documented all those slides about the technique because they have no idea what they are talking about and it was even less possible than native rendering a 4K image in the first place? What?

Then why even bother documenting such a thing if, according to your claims it was never possible and is not even in the cards?

"Uprendering" had nothing to do with the neo, it was used for PS2 emulation on the PS4.

I decided to look into it a bit more, the patent Sony application filed was deemed to have the same subject matter as this patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US7668398
Which to me is much more clearly upscaling, though they decided to call it upsampling. lol

Makes how this whole thing started seem kind of dumb. xD

Goes to show we need to be using some more comprehensive terminology instead of a term used in a single rejected patent.

 

[Inuhanyou]

"Uprendering" had nothing to do with the neo, it was used for PS2 emulation on the PS4.

You didn't answer my question. Why would Sony document those slides if they didn't know what they were talking about in regards to chalkboard rendering?

 

[Fafalada]

Why would Sony document those slides if they didn't know what they were talking about in regards to chalkboard rendering?

Was there ever a mention of "uprendering" in those slides?

 

[ZoyosJD]

You didn't answer my question. Why would Sony document those slides if they didn't know what they were talking about in regards to chalkboard rendering?

These?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1246596

They say nothing about "uprendering". Checkerboard rendering and "uprendering" are completely different techniques which was one of my points.

The slides even suggest aiming for intermediate resolutions after checkerboard rendering before upscaling to 4k.

 

[Metfanant]

That doesn't make any sense at all. Your basically saying Sony documented all those slides about the technique because they have no idea what they are talking about and it was even less possible than native rendering a 4K image in the first place? What?

Then why even bother documenting such a thing if, according to your claims it was never possible and is not even in the cards?

Because "uprendering" has nothing to do with Neo or 4k rendering!..could it be used for that? Sure, but the documents clearly reference very low resolutions, and converting SD content to HD to better display it on modern TVs...

This technique is not mentioned ONCE in the Neo presentation...

 

[AmyS]

Was there ever a mention of "uprendering" in those slides?

I don't want to say for certain there was not, but I don't think so.

 

[Darklor01]

I don't want to say for certain there was not, but I don't think so.

Slides read like... Work in progress.

 

[AmyS]

Slides read like... Work in progress.

The slides are also many months old.

 

[Ushay]

I don't want to say for certain there was not, but I don't think so.

Yeah they definitely look old, they just say we 'may' get 4k or not. Not very reassuring I think. Nevertheless I am optimistic the games will look ace.

The September event is a lock for the reveal right?

 

[Darklor01]

The slides are also many months old.

Yep. They were a leak. I remember when they hit. What I meant to communicate they seem like they weren't sure how high they could get the resolution back then. I kinda thought they'd know, but it just shows how early on the leaked docs were in the process of finalizing things.
Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

If they are sub 4.5 on the gpu I'm not sure why they would annouce the numbers

 

[Darklor01]

If they are sub 4.5 on the gpu I'm not sure why they would annouce the numbers

Maybe if those numbers are locked better now than have outrage later? Avoid announcement backlash for an event to reveal later details on pricing, and other things?

 

[Jack The Nipper]

Maybe if those numbers are locked better now than have outrage later? Avoid announcement backlash for an event to reveal later details on pricing, and other things?

If they are releasing this year and with nice improvements all around would be ok.

If they can get the price down but a lot of folks will jump up Scorpio. Mostly in na though.

I don't think it will turn the tide or anything and if Sony went cheaper would be a big plus for them like the ps2 days.

Maybe it will come this year and a another annoucement for 2018 to beat out Scorpio a bit

 

[Fafalada]

I don't want to say for certain there was not, but I don't think so.

Exactly - I don't recall the term used outside of the said patent.
It's worth mentioning though they separate upscaling from everything else - ie. not exactly how Gaf defines things.

 

[BruceCLea]

I can't wait for September 7 so this stupid thread will finally end.