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[Mirror D 80s]

This is the same rumor 3-4 months ago. completely hand picked by some citizen who has no part in development. 1) the specs especially for the base is way to little for parity. especially since the X1s is way more popular than the x why would MS sacrifice their parity and most profitable system class 2) the devs that work on ps5 inside amd are separate from the Xbox 4 team. the games that were leaked also sounded like a crock of bull. due to there being different devs how the hell could this individual get both sonys games / system, Microsoft games/system leaks this is a smoking gun number two 3) there was a leak that the dev kits for Xbox 4 releases around april i think this is the month. why would you trust some half baked specs when the bloody dev kits are not even out yet!?

 

[vpance]

DF and other deep analysis have been rising in popularity with the core demographic, but we're not the only demographic. Think of a parent buying a console for their kids, one is 150 dollars cheaper than the others and runs most of the same games, they probably don't give a hoot about how many lines of horizontal resolution it'll fill. A cheaper next gen box could really be lightning in a bottle imo.

I feel that target market is usually content with what they already have, since they've already only bought a game system within the last 2 years or something like that.

The draw isn't going to be the box price alone since the games themselves are still expensive, which is the actual limiter in my eyes. Until there's some great benefit beyond the initial cost I think the price sensitive crowd will continue to stick with old gen and used games. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

 

[bitbydeath]

They could simply make the game at the higher end specs then do whatever is needed to get it running at a good level on the lower end model.

What if it's not possible to get it running though? I'm pretty sure it's usually the other way around.

Lowest common denominator first.

 

[DForce]

The difference would be Lockhart would be able to run fully next gen titles, not just cross generation games. If next gen is 500 for the 'main' box and ~150 less for Lockhart, at 350, that would kill the appeal of most of those imo. Why an X when Lockhart also runs all next gen exclusives that require Ryzen and more memory.

Yes, I'm aware that they'll be able to run full next gen titles, but early on, most if not all games will be released on previous and current gen consoles. A lot of the casual consumers do not jump to next gen hardware early on.



360 managed to sell 643k units compared to 908k Xbox One units.

I do not have the numbers for January.

February 2014
PS4: 286k
XB1: 258k
360: 114k
WiiU: 82k

I think Sony will probably release two SKU's and the Nintendo Switch will still be very competitive. Not saying the console won't sell, but I don't think it's going to be as popular as people think.

 

[Shin]

Fun fact:

Microsoft is continuing its reptile-themed codenames for its Xbox consoles. The original Xbox One was codenamed Durango and the Xbox One X devkit used the Chuckwalla codename ahead of the arachnid-themed Project Scorpio. Now it appears the next-generation Xbox, expected to arrive in 2020, is codenamed Anaconda.

 

[onQ123]

What if it's not possible to get it running though? I'm pretty sure it's usually the other way around.

Lowest common denominator first.

But this whole thing is unusual so why base it off of how things was done across different platforms when these consoles will be basically the same with one just having more CU's /Ram & higher clock rates? they might be just checking boxes & turning nobs for the different models as far as we know lol

 

[Redneckerz]

Because it's supported by their software fallback for DirectX 12

WARP is their software reference rasterizer. It supports everything as its CPU based.

Its also dog slow so this is not really indicative of your point.

 

[onQ123]

I know what WARP is and my point stands

 

[ZywyPL]

h as resolution boosts and maybe the odd shader improvement.

But rendering in native 4K DOES require extra computing power, what's there to understand? Even without any base model, a lot os the rumored 12TF would have to go just for rendering in such a high resolution, it's not like if the 4TF model didn't exist the devs would have so much more TF to put into better graphics. Take X1S and X1X as an example - 4x more TF, and it all goes just to render the same 720/900/1080p games in 4K, plus maybe some minor tweaks here and there, so 4TF vs 12TF would be 3x as much, so it's even better ratio in terms of the base console capabilities vs the premium one. or comparing the rumored models to current ones - 3x TF increase in base model vs 2x in the premium one,. Think of those 4TF as if ND, SMS, GG etc. targeted only PS4 Pro, and without the chase for 4K, that's how next-gen games will look like.

 

[bitbydeath]

But this whole thing is unusual so why base it off of how things was done across different platforms when these consoles will be basically the same with one just having more CU's /Ram & higher clock rates? they might be just checking boxes & turning nobs for the different models as far as we know lol

Cause 4TF is a limitation the game would have to work within unless they cut the lower one out on certain games and state it is a streaming only title.

 

[DanielsM]

The two SKUs to me is the sticker, it sounds okay in some ways but I think it could be a big issue with retailers, consumers and for the marketing team. Further, developers are now targeting more SKUs in a generation (in theory) which kind of beats a good portion of developing for consoles i.e. standardize limited SKUs - maybe this will become a new norm???? Low specs early could be an issue for lower tier later in the gen - in theory you could extend the gen.

To me the way to go is premium right out the gate at least for Sony, the PS4 is still selling good. The sales might be a little low at the start but then you have the ability to run Pro later without a very low base model spec to have to deal with. Xbox is in a different position, so I could see flowing these ideas but at some point you have to cross the line to next gen. I just don't know why Microsoft would want to gimp their base model right out of the gate so much (its kind of a repeat of the Xbox One base), maybe I am missing the forest for the trees.

 

[bitbydeath]

But rendering in native 4K DOES require extra computing power, what's there to understand? Even without any base model, a lot os the rumored 12TF would have to go just for rendering in such a high resolution, it's not like if the 4TF model didn't exist the devs would have so much more TF to put into better graphics. Take X1S and X1X as an example - 4x more TF, and it all goes just to render the same 720/900/1080p games in 4K, plus maybe some minor tweaks here and there, so 4TF vs 12TF would be 3x as much, so it's even better ratio in terms of the base console capabilities vs the premium one. or comparing the rumored models to current ones - 3x TF increase in base model vs 2x in the premium one,. Think of those 4TF as if ND, SMS, GG etc. targeted only PS4 Pro, and without the chase for 4K, that's how next-gen games will look like.

I saw I wasn't winning anyone over with my theory on 4x not being completely accurate, so I adjusted it to include checkerboarding.

MS max TF for a game would be 4 as that is all it will reach. Sony could use 7-8TF if they checkerboard up to 4K.

That is a massive power difference, MS should release just one console to not hold games (third party) back.

 

[onQ123]

Cause 4TF is a limitation the game would have to work within unless they cut the lower one out on certain games and state it is a streaming only title.

4TF could be 4K using checkerboard rendering or super resolution with no ray-tracing while 12TF is 4K native with ray-tracing turned on & stuff like that

 

[bitbydeath]

4TF could be 4K using checkerboard rendering or super resolution with no ray-tracing while 12TF is 4K native with ray-tracing turned on & stuff like that

But what if they want more out of the base game? There's only so much 4TF can do.

It's hard to come up with examples since we haven't seen what that level of power could do. But I'd imagine something like The Order 1886 would be reacing incredibly uncanny levels.

 

[Redneckerz]

I know what WARP is and my point stands

No, it does not, because it is bordering on unusuable.

 

[onQ123]

How would you know when DirectML is only in preview right now & no consoles have been built around ML yet?

 

[Norse]

So, two skus a la Xbox 360....doesn't seem confusing at all.

Xbox 2 1080
Xbox 2 2160

Why would there be any issue development wise for this? Both machines are the same cept for GPU power, and ram so just program the game to default to 1080/60 on the 4tf system and give an option of 4k on the 12tf system. The 4k version would use the additional ram for 4k textures perhaps.

It's no different than a PC gamer upgrading his rigs video card that has more ram and tflops to get better performance on the game he already owns.

Some of you are making this way more problematic than it is. Been done for many yrs on PC.

Can't wait for DF videos showing 1X vs X2 1080 comparisons with the new CPU

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

The two SKUs to me is the sticker, it sounds okay in some ways but I think it could be a big issue with retailers, consumers and for the marketing team. Further, developers are now targeting more SKUs in a generation (in theory) which kind of beats a good portion of developing for consoles i.e. standardize limited SKUs - maybe this will become a new norm???? Low specs early could be an issue for lower tier later in the gen - in theory you could extend the gen.

To me the way to go is premium right out the gate at least for Sony, the PS4 is still selling good. The sales might be a little low at the start but then you have the ability to run Pro later without a very low base model spec to have to deal with. Xbox is in a different position, so I could see flowing these ideas but at some point you have to cross the line to next gen. I just don't know why Microsoft would want to gimp their base model right out of the gate so much (its kind of a repeat of the Xbox One base), maybe I am missing the forest for the trees.

For me, the prospect of another weak-ass Xbox console dragging down the development baseline, becoming the lowest common denominator holding back the leap we need this gen is galling.

Even though scalability is a thing, it would still shackle developers if there's a 4TF Xbox and a 14 TF SKU. It would be such a shame for multiplats and 1st party.

 

[Shangounchained]

Credit: Gematsu
Source: Jeuxvideo [French]

Started a new thread as new information (Verge editor and so on) is not covered in the old one nor visible in a 9+ page topic and discussions are based off Jan. 23.
Old thread: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumo...age-devkit-to-release-after-gdc-2019.1471442/

That's a rubbish leak how can a new Xbox have lower teraflops than the Xbox one x

 

[Shangounchained]

That's a rubbish leak how can a new Xbox have lower teraflops than the Xbox one x

lockhart 4 tflops Xbox one X 6 tflops ps4pro 4.2 tflops what a lousy leak

 

[Jigsaah]

That's not totally true.

Sony was able to come back last generation by reducing the price of the PlayStation 3 and putting out good exclusive games.

Microsoft tried to do the same by removing the Kinect and putting put games like Halo, Gears and Forza , but they were still unable to compete against Sony this generation when it came to console sales. This goes to show you how popular the Sony brand is.

What's totally not true? I said a lot of things. Are you saying Sony won because they came back towards the end of the generation? Let me ask you this. At what cost? Remember theres also the issue with attach rate. If people have more xbox's throughout the generations, buying the systems and the games at full price. Sony reduces there prices and people ultimately have less time and desire to go back years to buy old games from that gen. However you somehow feel that because they caught up they somehow won? Look man if you love Sony that's great. I like Sony, I like Xbox. I'm just trying to use some common sense here.

 

[KlickKlack]

I'll just put it slightly differently -
You need 4 times the horsepower to run a 1080p game at 4k, right. 12tf is 4 times 4tf.

eeh....
4x4=16 not 12 {here in Germany}

 

[Jigsaah]

No, I'm speaking specifically to gaming, no they are not everywhere, market share is what they are losing and have been losing, last year was the worst unit number sales since 2006. The people that jump ship aren't jumping back unless there is a real reason. This is why Nadella had his famous, I don't know why there needs to be a third eco-system in phones comment. "Singles and Doubles" is a baseball reference, obviously, so during the good years were meh meaning against the competition - hitting singles not triples or homeruns. (they are now in strike out area time and time again)



I believe you to be setting up a strawman. No, going forward say $25-75 isn't going to sway someone to move eco-systems, and since we're approaching the end of Moore's Law all that power crap is becoming less significant or soon will. People are just not going to jump around unless there is very good cause, as a generalization, price and performance have a bearing but not as much going forward unless someone struggles if Sony sold the PS5 for $1,000... .well good luck, if they sell it for $450, no big deal.

Just like in the phone business, people are very much embedded into eco-systems this wasn't completely the case 5-7 years ago, which is why Nadella shutdown windows Phone, and the Microsoft Band.

https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-ceo-not-get-world-needed-third-ecosystem-phones/

The only issue for Microsoft is that all their services are not ready, they are still developing them on the Windows and Xbox side of the house, they ability to convert them into cloud services customers becomes even that much tougher.

I do agree that people are embedded in ecosystems. There are plenty of examples of that in forums across the net. I also think your phone industry comparison is accurate. However I also think one thing you said lends support to the passage of my previous post you quoted. You see, there was a dramatic change at the beginning of the generation on both Sony and Microsofts part. Sony was undoubtedly a more net positive effect, while Microsoft was almost wholly negative. So people who were all about 360 last gen did switch. It was cheaper, the price was better and Sony's PR was phenomenal from a business perspective.

I believe what we are seeing is the result of 2 companies who have been a bit too pompous in their respective pasts. I see Sony treading dangerously close to making a similar mistake. Not so much with price, they'd be fools to do a $600 dollar console again, but more so in the PR and policies department. Microsoft on the other hand is doing great in the PR space, but they are struggling with their initial offering and dealing too deeply with the unknown. This is reflected with the Xcloud initiative, all these new studios with yet to be revealed projects, 3 SKU generation launch and things like Xbox game pass going to switch. I feel like while Xbox cant afford to not be forward thinking, they really need to prioritize taking care of home first.

In order of importance they need to do these things, based on what their current strengths and weaknesses are to he competitive next gen:
1. First party offerings
2. Hardware strength and reliability
3. Competitive pricing/ PR
4. Smart Marketing

 

[Leonidas]

There's only so much 4TF can do.

A 4 TF console at 1080p can do more than a 10 TF console at 4K. If you think otherwise you simply refuse to understand how these things work.

 

[KlickKlack]

4TF is not enough, especially considering the top next gen consoles may be around 10-12TF.

really?
2x the power of the ps4 is not enough for 1080p? plus better RAM and 2-3x the CPU power?
you don't know what you are talking about

 

[zwiggelbig]

Xbox Lockhart 4 teraflops for a 2020 system is weak af

Xbox Anaconda is the way to go

And please keep the Anaconda name

Just like Xbox Scorpio is more badass than Xbox X

Xbox x is such a stupid name..

 

[DForce]

What's totally not true? I said a lot of things. Are you saying Sony won because they came back towards the end of the generation? Let me ask you this. At what cost? Remember theres also the issue with attach rate. If people have more xbox's throughout the generations, buying the systems and the games at full price. Sony reduces there prices and people ultimately have less time and desire to go back years to buy old games from that gen. However you somehow feel that because they caught up they somehow won? Look man if you love Sony that's great. I like Sony, I like Xbox. I'm just trying to use some common sense here.

No, there was just a lot of things that you said was incorrect. It's not about liking Sony, it's what actually happened. We have numbers that shows PS3 sold than the 360, but that is not the point I was talking about. It wasn't about who won.

The point is that both companies had a terrible launch. Sony's was terrible last gen and

Both made attempts to make a comeback, and only one was successful in doing that, which was Sony.

This means that the reason why they won is primarily due to the fact that people prefer the PlayStation brand over the Xbox and they just regained their market share after successfully making a comeback last generation.

Wii won last generation without having the power advantage.
Switch is will likely sell more than Xbox this gen and next gen (even though it's technically a next gen console) without having any power advantage over their competitors.

 

[DForce]

really?
2x the power of the ps4 is not enough for 1080p? plus better RAM and 2-3x the CPU power?
you don't know what you are talking about

This is the problem with your post. You're thinking next generation games are going to be current generation games rendered at a higher resolution when that's not going to be the case. Developers want to use that extra power to push graphics, which takes extra GPU and CPU power.

As the next generation goes on, you're going to see developers push their engines harder, which will result in more rendering techniques, sub 4K games and a lot of dynamic resolution. If this the case, then the lower end consoles will not have enough power to keep up, especially if the games are sub-4k on the high end machines.

 

[Leonidas]

Both made attempts to make a comeback, and only one was successful in doing that, which was Sony.

Xbox One is profitable despite lower sales. Xbox One is more successful than PS3.

Sony has lost ~5 billion dollars on the PS3. It is the worst financial disaster in gaming history, losing more money for its parent company than either the Dreamcast or original Xbox.

 

[DForce]

A 4 TF console at 1080p can do more than a 10 TF console at 4K. If you think otherwise you simply refuse to understand how these things work.

As I explained earlier, devs might not even aim for Native 4K resolution.


Games are running worse on the base consoles because devs are pushing their engines as far as they can go without regrading the image quality too much.



Anyone who has own a desktop GPU knows that it's harder to render their games at Native 4K even on high end GPUs to maintain 60fps.

 

[DForce]

Xbox One is profitable despite lower sales. Xbox One is more successful than PS3.

Being more profitable has nothing to do with my post.

The point is that they were able to make a comeback. People bought the console after the price drop, which produced different results for both companies.

This also include games, but it just goes to show you that it wasn't because of power or a bad launch that put them more than 50 million units behind.

 

[Leonidas]

As I explained earlier, devs might not even aim for Native 4K resolution.


Games are running worse on the base consoles because devs are pushing their engines as far as they can go without regrading the image quality too much.



Anyone who has own a desktop GPU knows that it's harder to render their games at Native 4K even on high end GPUs to maintain 60fps.

It won't matter. I hope all the rumors are true just so we can see how silly some of these old comments look

 

[DForce]

It won't matter. I hope all the rumors are true just so we can see how silly some of these old comments look

Really? How often do you game on PC?

 

[Redneckerz]

How would you know when DirectML is only in preview right now & no consoles have been built around ML yet?

Because it was primarily an addition to refras, or reference rasterizer, which is a baseline renderer that all gpu's must support fully. Eventually Warp took over. Ite been around for a while.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Advanced_Rasterization_Platform
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/direct3darticles/directx-warp

Heck here is Assassin's Creed 1 rendered through WARP:



Specs of the system used:

Spoiler

Resolution: lowest possible 640x480 (engine renders in 640x360) + black borders added for youtube. So, if you don't know what you're looking here at, let me explain: - Assassin's Creed (2007) is running here purely emulated on i7-4790K CPU using the built-in multi-threaded software rasterizer WARP (Windows Advanced Rasterization Platform) on Windows 7x64. More info about WARP: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr... - what this basically does is to skip the main GPU and render the game only with the CPU using a built-in DirectX10 multi-threaded software emulation. - to use this feature you need to install Microsoft DirectX SDK. - type 'dxcpl' into Win+R, select the 'AssassinsCreed_Dx10.exe' file, and select 'Force WARP' at the bottom of the window. - make sure you change the in-game resolution into the lowest possible (640x480) or you will see a slide show. - with WARP in dxcpl you may run a Direct3D10+ application or game even if you don't have any GPU supporting DirectX10+ installed, but this may not always work.

 

[Fitzchiv]

MS are pursuing a product leadership approach. It means high-cost activity, iterative development and positioning yourself as the business taking big forward steps in terms of design of product and service. It means being a fast follower isn't viable. A lot of you are pointing to Sony's ability to flex their offer and fast follow with a superior product as an advantage, but i think that's flawed unless the original MS proposition is weak.

If MS launch a truly differentiated console(s) with a strong game lineup then they will claim significant share that, partnered with Game-pass as a lock-in, will prove quite difficult to dislodge. Sony would have to sell a promise to their existing install base that didn't move to the new MS console that the wait would be worth it, but that would put a lot of focus on the wait and how long that'd be. If Sony had a superior product in the pipeline already, then it's an easy sell and they could flex price to ensure it's on point with the MS offer - and spend the lag between launches ensuring its service offer was strong too. If the product in the pipeline WASN'T strong enough, that poses serious issues for them as these things don't happen overnight. Any major change to design would mean extending the wait, and thus extending MS's advantage.

Sony can afford to be a fast-follower, whereas MS simply cannot. But this is a little bit like poker now - they both will know their hand, they now have to choose how to play it and when to show or fold.

Nintendo meanwhile are successfully exploiting a completely different mix of the Cost/Service/Product mix and will continue to. I genuinely wish either they or a new entrant would play on the same basis as MS and Sony and disrupt the pair of them, but I personally really respect what MS are trying to do - they're not afraid to make bold steps in both the hardware and service offer and are probably very used to failure of concepts by now. That makes them dangerous as they can iterate quickly.

 

[onQ123]

Because it was primarily an addition to refras, or reference rasterizer, which is a baseline renderer that all gpu's must support fully. Eventually Warp took over. Ite been around for a while.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Advanced_Rasterization_Platform
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/direct3darticles/directx-warp

Heck here is Assassin's Creed 1 rendered through WARP:



Specs of the system used:

Spoiler

Resolution: lowest possible 640x480 (engine renders in 640x360) + black borders added for youtube. So, if you don't know what you're looking here at, let me explain: - Assassin's Creed (2007) is running here purely emulated on i7-4790K CPU using the built-in multi-threaded software rasterizer WARP (Windows Advanced Rasterization Platform) on Windows 7x64. More info about WARP: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr... - what this basically does is to skip the main GPU and render the game only with the CPU using a built-in DirectX10 multi-threaded software emulation. - to use this feature you need to install Microsoft DirectX SDK. - type 'dxcpl' into Win+R, select the 'AssassinsCreed_Dx10.exe' file, and select 'Force WARP' at the bottom of the window. - make sure you change the in-game resolution into the lowest possible (640x480) or you will see a slide show. - with WARP in dxcpl you may run a Direct3D10+ application or game even if you don't have any GPU supporting DirectX10+ installed, but this may not always work.

SMH you be so ready to argue that you be talking about stuff that has nothing to do with what I said , Xbox Scarlet is most likely going to have a AI processor which is either going to be a FPGA or specially made AI processor

 

[bitbydeath]

A 4 TF console at 1080p can do more than a 10 TF console at 4K. If you think otherwise you simply refuse to understand how these things work.

What about a 4TF console at 1080p vs an 8TF console at 1080p which still reaches 4K on 12TF through checkerboarding?

 

[Shin]

That's a rubbish leak how can a new Xbox have lower teraflops than the Xbox one x

Calling something rubbish without knowing the possibilities...Super-SIMD is only one of those.
From the post I get that you see a number that's lower than the current and automatically think it's bad, when it could be equal.

 

[Redneckerz]

SMH you be so ready to argue that you be talking about stuff that has nothing to do with what I said , Xbox Scarlet is most likely going to have a AI processor which is either going to be a FPGA or specially made AI processor

You were responding to me regarding WARP with a comment about DirectML. I said WARP is unusuable, you replied with ''How would you know when DirectML is only in preview right now & no consoles have been built around ML yet?'' I thought that was odd but i assumed we were still talking about WARP since you commented on it.

Unless that question was meant for someone else, but it is not difficult to see why i commented the way i did. We were talking about WARP, i just showed you why it is unusuable.

Funny enough WARP probably will support DirectML aswell since its CPU-based and supports the complete Direct stack.

 

[onQ123]

You were responding to me regarding WARP with a comment about DirectML. I said WARP is unusuable, you replied with ''How would you know when DirectML is only in preview right now & no consoles have been built around ML yet?'' I thought that was odd but i assumed we were still talking about WARP since you commented on it.

Unless that question was meant for someone else, but it is not difficult to see why i commented the way i did. We were talking about WARP, i just showed you why it is unusuable.

Funny enough WARP probably will support DirectML aswell since its CPU-based and supports the complete Direct stack.

I never was talking about WARP only that Xbox Scarlet could be taking advantage of lower precision because of DirectML & I mentioned fp10 & someone asked me where fp10 came from & I said that MS use it in their software fallback & this is when you came in like always just looking for some argument talking about stuff that no one asked you about as if someone needed your input.

 

[CRAIG667]

If they don't plan on releasing new hardware till the end of 2020, its an act of desperation announcing it 16-18 months before release. Not that they are selling many consoles anyway.

Are you stupid?

 

[Von Hugh]

What about a 4TF console at 1080p vs an 8TF console at 1080p which still reaches 4K on 12TF through checkerboarding?

8 TF console would be more expensive.

 

[Redneckerz]

I never was talking about WARP

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumo...e-announced-at-e3-2019.1472654/post-253815516

You refer to a software fallback, which is WARP. So yeah you were talking about WARP.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumo...e-announced-at-e3-2019.1472654/post-253815970 here you talk about it too.

only that Xbox Scarlet could be taking advantage of lower precision because of DirectML & I mentioned fp10 & someone asked me where fp10 came from & I said that MS use it in their software fallback

Which is WARP. Thanks for proving the point and don't decieve yourself with ''I was not talking about WARP''. You were. I even checked that table multiple times with what you were claiming and WARP is the only one that supports what you were saying.

& this is when you came in like always just looking for some argument talking about stuff that no one asked you about as if someone needed your input.

If that's the case then why did you comment about it? Ah right, i thought so already.

All i said is that WARP is unusuable for anything but testing.

I am not looking for an argument, i just responded to you and now you are backpedaling that you weren't talking about WARP. You were.

 

[onQ123]

Calling something rubbish without knowing the possibilities...Super-SIMD is only one of those.
From the post I get that you see a number that's lower than the current and automatically think it's bad, when it could be equal.

And this is why 8 or 9TF fp16 will be mentioned when it's time to market this model if that's the real specs.

 

[onQ123]

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumo...e-announced-at-e3-2019.1472654/post-253815516

You refer to a software fallback, which is WARP. So yeah you were talking about WARP.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumo...e-announced-at-e3-2019.1472654/post-253815970 here you talk about it too.


Which is WARP. Thanks for proving the point and don't decieve yourself with ''I was not talking about WARP''. You were. I even checked that table multiple times with what you were claiming and WARP is the only one that supports what you were saying.


If that's the case then why did you comment about it? Ah right, i thought so already.

All i said is that WARP is unusuable for anything but testing.

I am not looking for an argument, i just responded to you and now you are backpedaling that you weren't talking about WARP. You were.

I mentioned fp10 someone asked where it come from & I said MS use it in their software fall back which is WARP you come in trying to make a argument about WARP which was never the focus of my post but was used to show that fp10 is supported by Microsoft

 

[DynamiteCop!]

And this is why 8 or 9TF fp16 will be mentioned when it's time to market this model if that's the real specs.

People need to get this FP16 crap out of their heads, the only reason it's even occupying space is Mark Cerny jamming a bunch of horse shit ideas into peoples minds. Half precision isn't new or even remotely as useful as its made out to be, it can manage some minor background rendering tasks that might gain you a few FPS but beyond that it's useless. If you try to implement FP16 into any kind of serious or noticeable rendering path it's just going to destroy render quality.

I remember people cheating on 3DMark like a decade ago manipulating FP16 in AMD's driver suite, it absolutely destroyed the render quality but netted dramatically higher scores.

 

[Redneckerz]

I mentioned fp10 someone asked where it come from & I said MS use it in their software fall back which is WARP you come in trying to make a argument about WARP which was never the focus of my post but was used to show that fp10 is supported by Microsoft

I came in to explain WARP since you made it sound like it was an useable feature.

Nice that you are admitting indirectly that you were talking indeed about WARP, by the way. ''I never was talking about WARP'' please.

The GPU in the X is built upon an older AMD design with some tweaks. As many are aware, AMD GPUs are somewhat inefficient with their compute, thus the actual power is below nominal.

According to rumors, Navi is a more cycle-efficient architecture, whose operational power is closer to nVidia's FLOPS count. If that is truly the case, then the low nominal FLOPS count is irrelevant. It could very well turn out that 4 Navi TFLOPS are equal to ~5.2 (+/-) Polaris+ (I think that's the base architecture in the X) TFLOPS. In that case, and considering the rumors that Lockhart is resolution-locked to 1080p, it should pretty much run anything one could throw at it in FHD 60fps. Which is evidently the target for the lower-specced unit.

In that sense Lockhart is more akin to Subor Z Plus: Zen cores, Vega GPU, but 4 TF performance. So far it can run quite a few games in 1080p60 at higher settings than consoles, but due to lack of driver optimizations, it also performs like shite in other titles.

Perhaps its better to take Z Plus as a basis for Lockhart rumors, really.

As for what would be its purpose? Most likely primarily Game Pass, backwards compatibility (digital-only, due to multiple reports of it being discless) with the existing XBox OG, 360 and One library, streaming, and the occasional next-gen game at a locked 1080p 60fps.

I am just not enticed about the digital-only nature of this machine, even with all the other supposed features.

Price-wise, I can see Microsoft trying to straddle Sony with their offers, since it is suspected that Sony will do a repeat of $399. In which case, Microsoft will possibly offer a $299 lower-end box, and a $499 flagship one.

300 bucks for that machine when GPU perf is similar to Pro? I reckon so, but without a discdrive, i am not sure.

 

[onQ123]

People need to get this FP16 crap out of their heads, the only reason it's even occupying space is Mark Cerny jamming a bunch of horse shit ideas into peoples minds. Half precision isn't new or even remotely as useful as its made out to be, it can manage some minor background rendering tasks that might gain you a few FPS but beyond that it's useless. If you try to implement FP16 into any kind of serious or noticeable rendering path it's just going to destroy render quality.

I remember people cheating on 3DMark like a decade ago manipulating FP16 in AMD's driver suite, it absolutely destroyed the render quality but netted dramatically higher scores.

You really need to do some research so you won't be confused next generation & I was talking about fp16 before Mark Cerny even talked about PS4 Pro , double rate fp16 is going to be supported by all next gen consoles.

 

[onQ123]

I came in to explain WARP since you made it sound like it was an useable feature.

Nice that you are admitting indirectly that you were talking indeed about WARP, by the way. ''I never was talking about WARP'' please.


In that sense Lockhart is more akin to Subor Z Plus: Zen cores, Vega GPU, but 4 TF performance. So far it can run quite a few games in 1080p60 at higher settings than consoles, but due to lack of driver optimizations, it also performs like shite in other titles.

Perhaps its better to take Z Plus as a basis for Lockhart rumors, really.


I am just not enticed about the digital-only nature of this machine, even with all the other supposed features.


300 bucks for that machine when GPU perf is similar to Pro? I reckon so, but without a discdrive, i am not sure.

You really do have a problem lol

 

[DynamiteCop!]

You really need to do some research so you won't be confused next generation & I was talking about fp16 before Mark Cerny even talked about PS4 Pro , double rate fp16 is going to be supported by all next gen consoles.

Having support for it means jack shit, all AMD architecture has had support for double precision for over 15 years. Like I said it's a mainly useless feature, it can efficiently handle some background tasks but the work involved isn't worth the effort. It's never going to materialize into anything substantial, ever, it can't be implemented in a way that doesn't greatly harm render quality.

Checkerboard rendering is a fine example of a technology that has come a long in the wake of double precision and dumps all over it in terms of replication and performative gains. You don't need double precision for anything.

FP16 is perpetual motion machine levels of smoke and mirrors bullshit.