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[Jokeropia]

The gifs were intended to show 1:1 control. A swing in WSR is not 1:1.

Not in table tennis, but that is by design. A swing in WSR swordplay is 1:1.

Does that even matter for the sake of comparison? The purpose of the two gifs was to illustrate that the Wii has limitations, where the Move controller can compensate for those limitations.

Since the lack of 1:1 in WSR table tennis has nothing to do with "limitations" in Wii, the gifs were either made by someone with zero knowledge about WSR and MotionPlus or someone deliberately disingenuous.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Earlier in the Wii's life, people used 1:1 out of context to describe a fixed crosshair...
I cant be the only one who remembers this.

Edit:
I still thought people used it like that but I guess I'm out of the loop
Fixed crosshair/reticule it is

It's been used to describe true lightgun style aiming, but that's the opposite of staying in the centre.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211816

 

[j^aws]

It's been used to describe true lightgun style aiming, but that's the opposite of staying in the centre.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211816

I'm pretty sure 'fixed crosshair' means -> 'the crosshair behaves differently around the centre of the screen, than when it's around the edge of the screen' - i.e. the equivalent of dealing with lifting the mouse off the mousepad, when you run out of space...

 

[schuelma]

These threads are atrocities.

 

[jman2050]

You missed

f.) say that E is indeed what I'd like to see, but it doesn't look like Sony's actions match their words. We shall see. Also,

g.) it's too bad that even if Sony does do E, the Move is likely to be poorly supported and not very successful.

G is basically where I'm at right now.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't know if people, particularly on GAF, are fans of "motion control technology." It's like saying you're a fan of analog sticks. Nobody's actually a fan of hardware like that. People are fans of the software that the hardware enables.

I'm a fan of Wii Sports Resort and Red Steel 2, not because I can go wave my arms around like an epileptic. I'm a fan of them because they are refined experiences that provide something NEW to the hobby I love. I didn't suddenly buy games I wasn't interested in just because they offer motion controls.

I think that's why a lot of Wii fans, and people in general, aren't excited by MOVE. It doesn't really offer a new proposition. It offers what the Wii offers, but in HD. This was the exact paradigm that was rejected at the beginning of the generation.

Further, this is why we see much less bitching, at least from the so-called "Wii fans," about Natal. Natal is at least trying to accomplish something new. Perhaps controller-less gaming can offer something truly NEW, and that's why its implications for gaming are more interesting than MOVE. Ultimately with Natal, like every other hardware input mechanism, the efficacy will be determined by the software.

Unfortunately, "innovation" became a derided catchphrase, rather than the hope for something unique to play. Certainly, the proposition of Wii wasn't completely fulfilled, so that is where both the excitement and cynicism for MOVE come from.

Honestly, if PS3 has MOVE with Call of Duty 7, then it will probably have the best version of the top-selling FPS on any console. MOVE certainly has its advantages. Nonetheless, its appearance as a "copycat," as you say, rightfully causes cynicism about its direction and its ultimate potential for what Wii buyers, especially here at GAF, were actually wanting. Not motion control. But something new.

\

It's the which comes first, the chicken or the egg philosophy?

If the motion controls weren't there, then that nebulous "NEW" you were looking for would not exist. The very substantive thing which creates this new experiences is the motion controller, and yes absolutely there are fans of that technology on GAF.

If you're saying you're fans of chintzy mini-game compilations like Wii Sports Resort and terribly designed FPS like Red Steel 2, and that you'd like them anyway without motion controls, then first let me say I'm impressed at your resolve. But allow me my skepticism when I say that's bullshit.

Nobody would play these fucked up games if they didn't have motion controls. The market would not have responded if these games weren't married to motion controls. It is the interface that allowed the appealing software to be created.

You can say "I'm not a fan of the motion controller technology, it's the software" and while it's true the software needed to be designed to take advantage of it, without "it", nothing would exist and none of the games you claim to like because they're "NEW" would work.

No matter which way you put it, it's the motion controller technology which allows these experiences. And the goal is the ultimate refinement of said technology.

Saying all you want is something "new" is a pretty big cop out to avoid critical thought. No matter what, the motion control technology is now OUT THERE. What comes after is going to be refinements. Every new generation we're not going to have some radical gimmickry to appeal to the ADHD set. Naturally, the next step is evolution, not revolution.

So no, you're not going to see the next Wii Sports. What you're going to see is games using a technology most Wii fans reportedly like, only the technology is better and the games look better and have infinitely superior online functionality.

That "new" feeling around motion controls is basically gone forever. The next step for Wii 2 is not going to be that big of a jump, even if it has 3D (PS3 already is going there). It's going to merely be refinements of proven formulas to try to perfect the motion control route.

And that's what PS3 Move does, for those who like motion control technology. It's one step closer to that ultimate refinement.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

That "new" feeling around motion controls is basically gone forever. The next step for Wii 2 is not going to be that big of a jump, even if it has 3D (PS3 already is going there). It's going to merely be refinements of proven formulas to try to perfect the motion control route.

If I can break away from Move talk for a moment.

Isn't that how things have always worked. At least in the Nintendo world. NES gave us their D-pad, and the SNES refined that controller. The N64 then saw them bringing back the Analog control, and the Gamecube saw them refine that controller. The Wii gave us pointer and motion controls and Wii 2 will see a refinement of that.

 

[Amir0x]

If I can break away from Move talk for a moment.

Isn't that how things have always worked. At least in the Nintendo world. NES gave us their D-pad, and the SNES refined that controller. The N64 then saw them bringing back the Analog control, and the Gamecube saw them refine that controller. The Wii gave us pointer and motion controls and Wii 2 will see a refinement of that.

Yes!

And that's how things should work. If every gen is some new gimmick, then those gimmicks are going to remain unrefined, and it's never going to reach its logical apex.

 

[selig]

\
Saying all you want is something "new" is a pretty big cop out to avoid critical thought.

All Nintendo-fans wanted was "something new". Motion Controls were but one of many speculations before the TGS-unveiling back then. People thought the controller would feature a touchscreen to simulate different button-layouts, and there was the obvious visor-theory. Not to forget about the "Nintendo Revolution will be a handheld-console-hybrid!".

Brandmarking any Nintendo-enthusiast as a hypocrite just because of not celebrating Sony´s Move is so very wrong for so very much reasons. To clearly speak for myself, I LOVE new technology. No, not abstract hardware that pushes better graphics, but technology that changes the way I can interact with games. Be that motion controls, a touchscreen, or voice-recognition. Refinement is not what I´m looking for, at least not when you are about to "sacrifice" a whole 5-year-generation just for that. And afaik, the NES´ d-pad was adopted by developers pretty quickly, as was the N64´s analog-stick. The Wii is in a pretty unique situation, but that´s been the topic of so many NPD-threads, no need to rehash.

FWIW, I really hope the Wii Too will have another, what did you call it, "gimmick" that introduces completely new possibilities of how to interact with games. Whatever it as, anything is better than getting a generation that´s just a simple upgrade/refinement of the previous.

 

[Amir0x]

Then all you want is shitty games and ridiculous gimmicks, and excuse me when I don't give a fuck about opinions like that. It's not something someone who loves games would say.

You guys claim you like something, but abandon ship when it's not from the company you like. You can claim it's some other reason, bullshit your way around the facts, but that's the reality.

Grow some fucking consistency.

And by the by, when Wii 2 is just a refinement of the formula, selig, with some better online and better visuals, but with a vitality sensor built in now, I'm going to sit here and laugh as you fall over yourself to proclaim that's what you always wanted. Because that's what's going to happen. That's what always happens. I've been around long enough to know the reaction of fanboys.

 

[cakefoo]

Not in table tennis, but that is by design. A swing in WSR swordplay is 1:1.

The game is using the orientation of the Wiimote to translate to the position and orientation of the sword/frisbee/tennis paddle in-game, and they're also using the orientation to determine the direction of the Wiimote when you trigger the pre-canned swing animation by meeting the acceleration threshold. If it were truly 1:1, I could write an S during the swing, and I couldn't swing by flicking, etc.

Since the lack of 1:1 in WSR table tennis has nothing to do with "limitations" in Wii

But it DOES. You don't seem to understand that the swordplay is hardly more 1:1 than table tennis. The only difference is that in table tennis they don't listen to orientation to determine the direction of the pre-programmed gesture-based swing.

the gifs were either made by someone with zero knowledge about WSR and MotionPlus or someone deliberately disingenuous.

WSR is very clever. It has everyone thinking that the frisbee/sword/racket that's anchored to your Mii is following your every move 1:1, when in reality it's just listening to orientation and scaling that up as if you were controlling the red dotted line on the green pivot point:

 

[gerg]

It's not something someone who loves games would say.

You're right. He's not a true Scotsman.

By the by, I think your argument does have some merit.

 

[cakefoo]

wow, you´re ridiculous. WHY are you lifting the wiimote up and down? sigh, go on about your circle jerking, i´m out of this thread...

You mean, why am I moving the position of the supposed 1:1 controller? Because I thought it was supposed to track 1:1. That's what you claimed. I just merely proved that all it's doing is tracking orientation, and you don't seem to want to get that.

 

[Tingfrmnongpradu]

.

 

[Pureauthor]

You're right. He's not a true Scotsman.

By the by, I think your argument does have some merit, although I'm not sure it has any relevance to much of what I've said in this thread. In fact, I'm not really sure what your argument actually is.

Well, his initial standpoint really doesn't have much to do with the thread at all, considering that he explicitly said in his first post here that he doesn't care much for the sales aspect of the forum and is talking primarily from the viewpoint of wanting games that he can enjoy while this is a thread primarily discussing the sales aspect, so...

 

[Amir0x]

This is a thread primarily discussing the comments in the first post, which have nothing to do with sales at all. There is not one thing mentioned in the initial comments about sales. Rather, it's about the type of games it can bring. It is being interpreted to "well that doesn't sound like they know how to sell the MOVE", but this is NOT a sales thread.

That is what I'm taking issue with. The fanboys who claim to love motion technology but for some reason only find it necessary to shit on MOVE because it's not going to sell to grandma or great aunt Gertrude. They don't like the technology, they love the company who makes it.

They don't like games, and they never have.

However, follow the conversation now. This is not a sales thread.

 

[Pureauthor]

This is a thread primarily discussing the comments in the first post, which have nothing to do with sales at all. There is not one thing mentioned in the initial comments about sales. Rather, it's about the type of games it can bring. It is being interpreted to "well that doesn't sound like they know how to sell the MOVE", but this is NOT a sales thread.

The quote in the opening statement is a PR statement. The primary purpose of a PR statement is to help generate interest (which translates into sales) in a game or piece of hardware. The base reason PR exists is for the sake of driving sales. (Or stocks, I suppose.)

Now it happens in many PR statements that you can find other things to talk about other than their main goal of driving sales. Such as, say, the incongruity of their claim to want to provide games that cater more to skill than the Wii offering despite showcasing Wii _____ clones (which has been discussed), or the supposed nature of more complex and 'skill based' games that will come down the line (which has been discussed), or whether or not these games will ever come pass in the first place if the Move doesn't succeed (which has been discussed).

But this PR was primarily created for the purpose of raising the potential sales of the Move, and many posters here are discussing that aspect of the statement too. It doesn't need to specifically mention sales. The entire baseline for this PR (and I'd say 99% of all PR statements) is to drive sales.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Yes!

And that's how things should work. If every gen is some new gimmick, then those gimmicks are going to remain unrefined, and it's never going to reach its logical apex.

Well yes that is how it should work. Everything when first introduced is a "Gimmick". That's just how shit goes it seems. I mean I remember when Nintendo showed off the N64 controller for the first time and I distinctly remember people calling the analog stick a gimmick back then. Now who can think of modern gaming with out at least 1 analog stick.

I'm not really surprised by this maneuver by Sony at all. Look at the PS1 generation, the analog stick caught on and Sony released the Dual Shock that had TWO!!!! sticks. Let me just clarify that I'm not saying Sony always copies Nintendo. What I'm trying to say is that when they see a new controller/scheme they have no qualms with taking it updating it how they see fit and releasing it for their system. Which is not a bad thing.

IMHO the best thing for me that Move can do is bring pointer controls to the mouth breathing "mature" "hardcore" gaming market so they can see just how fucking awesome pointer controls are.

 

[Amir0x]

The comment has nothing to do with sales. It is about the potential direction of the device. That it also has implications for sales is fine, but that's not the problem. Nor does it respond to your accusation that my comment has nothing to do with anything, when it is specifically referencing both the initial comment and others in this topic.

The problem I am taking issue with is the hypocritical fanboys who claim to love motion control technology and yet seem to only get stuck up on how many times it's going to sell to grandma. That happens in all the move threads, because it's a convenient way to deflect attention from the fact that they're being fucking hypocrites. I wait to see for some consistency, for some proof that it's about games. But it's not. As I said, these individuals actually hate themselves and hate games. It's about a company, and a battle line.

Any one who claims to love motion controller technology should

a.) Be glad another company is improving the technology
b.) Be glad another company is focusing on them specifically with their approach toward hardcore products (if that turns out to be the case... in practice, it's not true... yet. But these comments suggest otherwise)
c.) Not give a good goddamn fuck whether it sells to Grandma. Only if they get superior games they like from it using technology they claim to love.

If you are not one of these hypocrites, then we don't have anything to discuss.

 

[Pureauthor]

All right, I see where you're coming from. I don't care much about the motion controllers either way, so I guess I'll bow out.

 

[00011000]

Just dropped in to say Selig is a retarded Nintendo fanboy and I hate every word that comes from that feeble mind of his.

 

[Amir0x]

Insults are not allowed. Fanboy maybe, but you went too far.

 

[Saint Gregory]

You mean, why am I moving the position of the supposed 1:1 controller? Because I thought it was supposed to track 1:1. That's what you claimed. I just merely proved that all it's doing is tracking orientation, and you don't seem to want to get that.

Don't you mean software that's supposed to track 1:1. The Wii remote even without M+ is capable of tracking up and down/side to side movement but what it's bad at is referential positioning. It's simply can't keep accurate track of how far it's moved in any direction which leads to the constant need for recalibration even with the M+ attachment which itself only adds rotational data. All those GIFs show is what the games are programed to read and unfortunately we're going to have three times the amount of those types of GIFs once Move and Natal launch and people delibrately look for ways to do things the devs never intended.

If you kept track of the development of Grand Slam Tennis the devs mentioned in interviews how much they had to reduce the sensitivity of the controller with M+ in order to make the game playable. That game is one of the best uses of M+ so far but it's so unforgiving and the learning curve is so steep that I ended up moving on to something else before I mastered it. That's kind of what I interpret the direction Sony wants to take motion gaming in based on the OP and it's not something I'd look forward to.

Call me whatever you want but at the end of the day I want to pick up a game and play it. I don't have tens of hours available to master the controls of a game before I can enjoy playing it. I can remebered the times when I did so I'm not trying to shit on the parades of those who find that possiblity exciting but I definitely won't be signing up if the OP is to be believed.

 

[gerg]

OK, as someone who doesn't particularly care for any controls in general, outside of a design perspective, I'm not sure I have much to say in this particular aspect of the discussion either. I just don't find Move particularly impressive, and I don't think that there should be anything wrong with that if a large part of my reason for thinking so is that Nintendo introduced the Wii Remote four years ago. It's just not as innovative, or as radical a step.

I imagine we're arguing at cross-roads here.

 

[Amir0x]

OK, as someone who doesn't particularly care for any controls in general, outside of a design perspective, I'm not sure I have much to say in this particular aspect of the discussion either. I just don't find Move particularly impressive, and I don't think that there should be anything wrong with that if a large part of my reason for thinking so is that Nintendo introduced the Wii Remote four years ago. It's just not as innovative, or as radical a step.

I imagine we're arguing at cross-roads here.

Right, and the wii remote from the start was in dire need of substantial improvements 4 years ago. Which MOVE makes one more step toward doing. Everyone who liked wiimote should be happy, everyone who is indifferent shouldn't care at all, everyone who hates wiimote can continue doing the same for MOVE (like me).

Indeed, other than that, I agree we're probably at a crossroads.

 

[Concept17]

OK, as someone who doesn't particularly care for any controls in general, outside of a design perspective, I'm not sure I have much to say in this particular aspect of the discussion either. I just don't find Move particularly impressive, and I don't think that there should be anything wrong with that if a large part of my reason for thinking so is that Nintendo introduced the Wii Remote four years ago. It's just not as innovative, or as radical a step.

I imagine we're arguing at cross-roads here.

Not big on motion controls either, but I find it to be pretty impressive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FGFyVG2klU

 

[Deku]

It's a PR statement from a company coming four years late with better technology trying to explain their niche, which remains nebulous and unproven.


This is what most of the first two pages was about. People being puzzled, bemused by the position, not that it's better tech coming four years late on a 3rd place console, that's sort of a given. It's not a sales thread and I haven't seen an extensive sales discussion.

But by your standards anyone who says 'this is shit and won't sell' would be guilty of sales ageism.



That some people flipflop their positions is understandable, it happens to almost everything.

amir0x likes to go into threads, find posts that are sort of extreme and make a mountain out of their posts as if its a crusade for objectivity while subtly creating the parameters of debate that is to his liking.

While on your moral crusade amir, why don't you fillet the people like yourself who called motion controls a gimmick and now feels the extra precision that may allow for a few games to maybe function better in some nebulous context in a sea of the same Wiitoo experiences will be sufficient.

But that's probably too much to ask right?

 

[Beardz]

Just dropped in to say Selig is a retarded Nintendo fanboy and I hate every word that comes from that feeble mind of his.

 

[Amir0x]

Except I've done that too Deku, even going so far as to change thread titles to poke fun at the hypocritical nature of Sony fans now suddenly excited for motion control technology when they hated Wii (and further still, shit on Sony for their hilariously transparent attempt to merely copy-paste the 'WE ALL PLAY' philosophy of the Wii with the terrible casualware mini-game party shit and awful "playing demonstration" videos).

Just because you've stuck to your own corner of the gaming world and have not seen all my debates and arguments on the subject does not mean they have not occurred.

In this thread, it is camp Nintendo with the problems.

 

[Corky]

trolling the wii-motion -> bannable
trolling the move -> norm

nice.

 

[Vamphuntr]

Just dropped in to say Selig is a retarded Nintendo fanboy and I hate every word that comes from that feeble mind of his.

Aren't you the one that made that '' I lost respect in Insomniac because they went multiplatform'' ?

 

[Raist]

Right, and the wii remote from the start was in dire need of substantial improvements 4 years ago. Which MOVE makes one more step toward doing. Everyone who liked wiimote should be happy, everyone who is indifferent shouldn't care at all, everyone who hates wiimote can continue doing the same for MOVE (like me).

Indeed, other than that, I agree we're probably at a crossroads.

I think that most people who are calling people out for apparently doing complete U-turns fail to realize that people trashed the Wii not because it had motion controls, but because of the way it was doing motion controls.

 

[gerg]

Not big on motion controls either, but I find it to be pretty impressive...

Hmm...

Personally, that doesn't do much to me.

I don't admire the Wii Remote for its technology; I admire it for its design. And frankly, no matter what the capabilities of Move and its camera are, I don't think it's anywhere near as well designed as the Wii Remote is. (And what I mean by that is that the prospect of being able to play games using motion controls doesn't really excite me, at least not as much as it would have done back at the Wii's launch.)

Edit: I also feel that I may be being too harsh on Sony - I have every confidence that they may have done the best they could have done in the really really bad situation they're in at the moment.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I think that most people who are calling people out for apparently doing complete U-turns fail to realize that people trashed the Wii not because it had motion controls, but because of the way it was doing motion controls.

And how was that? Very few people, including Wii fans, seem to understand the difference between what hardware is capable of and what software is capable of. The real problem here afterall is that we're comparing Move demos to actual Wii retail games. Once the Move games are released and we can compare the controllers in actual gameplay then all this debate will be moot.

 

[yoopoo]

trolling the wii-motion -> bannable
trolling the move -> norm

nice.

Oh please...who has trolled Move in this thread?

 

[conman]

Not big on motion controls either, but I find it to be pretty impressive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FGFyVG2klU

One thing that stands out in that video is just how unfocused the "messaging" is with Move. So, it's like the Wii, only more complicated? I follow this stuff closely (and I'm sure I'll buy the setup), but I have a hard time seeing exactly what it's for. Nintendo at least kept their message simple. And MS is doing the same for Natal.

But Sony just keeps pumping out these really complicated demos and ideas in a completely rough and unfocused way. Show that stuff to the developers, not to the gaming public.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I just want to say in regards to the main topic. I don't think Move, even with its higher precision in some areas, is going to bring different games to the table than what's been done. That's not a bad thing though. Like I said earlier it'll at least bring pointer controls to a crowd of people that have been hating on it with out trying it so far. It'll hopefully mean I get more TPS/FPS with pointer controls.

I also don't think, in regards to motion controls, that higher precision is going to automatically mean more fun. I'm a really awful Tennis player, and I'd hate to play a game that was so precise that I'd have to be a Pro tennis player to get anywhere in the game. I think there needs to be a balance between precision and what is fun. I'm not saying the Wii or the Move is this or that. I think it's one of those laws of diminishing returns. You reach a point where higher precision and the games taking that into account starts to lower how fun the game is.

Just commenting on motion controls in general. Personally I can leave or take motion controls, they don't really excite me or turn me off either way. Pointer controls how ever are the best fucking thing this generation brought us and I really hope all 3 players have pointer controls in their next systems.

 

[Deku]

Except I've done that too Deku, even going so far as to change thread titles to poke fun at the hypocritical nature of Sony fans now suddenly excited for motion control technology when they hated Wii (and further still, shit on Sony for their hilariously transparent attempt to merely copy-paste the 'WE ALL PLAY' philosophy of the Wii with the terrible casualware mini-game party shit and awful "playing demonstration" videos).

Just because you've stuck to your own corner of the gaming world and have not seen all my debates and arguments on the subject does not mean they have not occurred.

In this thread, it is camp Nintendo with the problems.

You're right I haven't seen all of your discussions nor do I have the inside scoop on which mods changed which title.

At the end of the day, it's all potential and I don't see why it merits extra suspension of disbelief over any number of late-gen add-on hardware that were/are added primarily as part of a nebulous arms race with competitors. And as I pointed out, like the NATAL they have tiny window to launch it. 1 year maybe to get the proper installed base on a much smaller hardware base than the PS2 and EyeToy which I hear about often when people talk about successful hardware add-ons. I think we'll see new hardware by then. Or maybe 3D will be their next big push in 2011. The move seems detined to languish in pergatory.

Would you classify that as sales-age talk or am I allowed to even talk about it? That's really my issue with your posts. You pick a topic and you kill all discussion that isn't narrowly focused on what you want it to be.

I don't doubt your sincere, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong about this thread that merited your extra attention.

As for my corner of handheld gaming, I quite like it tyvm.

 

[Poyunch]

I see all of these complaints about WSR not being true 1:1 and I remember what Jason VandenBerghe said when developing Red Steel 2 saying that they purposely did not do 1:1 because in reality 1:1 isn't that fun. So who cares.

 

[Amir0x]

You're right I haven't seen all of your discussions nor do I have the inside scoop on which mods changed which title.

At the end of the day, it's all potential. And as I pointed out, like the NATAL they have tiny window to launch it. 1 year maybe to get the proper installed base. I think we'll see new hardware by then. Would you classify that as sales-age talk or am I allowed to even talk about it? That's really my issue with your posts. You pick a topic and you kill all discussion that isn't narrowly focused on what you want it to be.

I don't doubt your sincere, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong about this thread that merited your extra attention.

As for my corner of handheld gaming, I quite like it tyvm.

In all seriousness, I do not mean to kill any alternative discussions. By all means, discuss sales if you want. But I think we're all adult enough to realize the subtext of many of the comments related to sales, when it's discussing comments which are specifically talking about a device's potential for gameplay.

What I found to be interesting to discuss in this topic was the idea of this, people who claim to like a certain technology but then don't want others to implement it (or improve it). If a company does, they're far more open to criticism from the same people who claim to like the technology from other companies. For example when discussing the next PSP, frequently I'll see people say "I'll bet they'll use touchscreen, fucking LOL copycats" instead of "I'm happy they're going to further use technology I appreciate."

I'm not saying I am the king of consistency, but I'd like to think I have a general trajectory I follow and that I am true to myself and others about those facts.

It just seems today it's more about companies than games. If you like a technology, then continue to like it when ALL companies use it. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

Just dropped in to say Selig is a retarded Nintendo fanboy and I hate every word that comes from that feeble mind of his.

i still remember that gdc thread a few months ago.
from this
then you specifically posted this
and someone upped the ante with this
man that thread was gold in the last pages :lol

 

[Indyana]

A bit late but...

...

I respect your opinion because you have expressed your concerns about motion controls and precision. But it takes a lot of good will to believe people that:

a) have never been interested in a motion controler until Sony announced one.
b) have never complained about precision.
c) have never been interested in Wii Motion Plus that improved the precision.
d) are repeating Sony PR statements.

Somehow motion controls were tired and for casuals. Now they are for gamers and it's all about precision. Just because Sony said so.

And I wouldn't dismiss sales and casual appeal because those are the reasons that pushed Sony to launch their motion controller. Reasons that many people want to ignore because they don't match with what Sony says.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

It just seems today it's more about companies than games. If you like a technology, then continue to like it when ALL companies use it. That's all I'm saying.

Is today really any different than 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. One could go back through the history of Video games and find a ton of examples of the same thing happening. From all camps too mind you.

 

[j^aws]

Not big on motion controls either, but I find it to be pretty impressive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FGFyVG2klU

Below is the console-like Amiga CDTV, with a family orientated (accessible), pointer-based human interface, controlled by a remote-like controller, from 1992:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLPPIyQXA4E

... Very Wii-like approach (obviously without motion control), but nearly 20 years ago! Putting things into perspective, the Wii isn't really that impressive for me (and by extension, Move).

 

[Amir0x]

Is today really any different than 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. One could go back through the history of Video games and find a ton of examples of the same thing happening. From all camps too mind you.

Sure, i could have just left out 'today'. But it's a new dawn and I'm just poking rocks at things that are curious to me :lol

The hypocritical nature of the posts do annoy me (from both Sony fans AND Nintendo fans), and every so often I just take the time out to expose them again. Just because i mean goddamn don't we play for games?

If I liked motion controls, I'd be super happy Sony is picking up the flag and running with it. Even though I think MOVE won't be successful (because it's not been packed in with PS3 from day one, and nobody supports peripherals), if I liked motion controls I'd definitely be happy to know the ground work is there and now for PS4 it's probably going to be in that direction.

As someone who doesn't like [the current slate of] motion controls, however, this whole industry directions sucks balls goddamn it :lol

 

[jamesinclair]

I, for one, love 30 minute forced tutorials and frustrating experiences of constantly losing. Its what gaming is all about. It builds character.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Sure, i could have just left out 'today'. But it's a new dawn and I'm just poking rocks at things that are curious to me :lol

The hypocritical nature of the posts do annoy me (from both Sony fans AND Nintendo fans), and every so often I just take the time out to expose them again. Just because i mean goddamn don't we play for games?

If I liked motion controls, I'd be super happy Sony is picking up the flag and running with it. Even though I think MOVE won't be successful (because it's not been packed in with PS3 from day one, and nobody supports peripherals), if I liked motion controls I'd definitely be happy to know the ground work is there and now for PS4 it's probably going to be in that direction.

As someone who doesn't like [the current slate of] motion controls, however, this whole industry directions sucks balls goddamn it :lol

Even though I know it's not possible I wouldn't be at all bothered if Nintendo dropped motion next gen and went all pointer instead. See what irked me about the OP had nothing to with Move and its technology really but the prevailing idea in the industry that gaming has to become more complex and inaccessible in order to move forward. Stuff I used to really enjoy like Madden is nigh unplayable to me now because a simple pass play requires the combination of four buttons and a control stick to pull off

Just stop please, just because something is harder to do doesn't automatically make it hardcore, sometimes it just means it's been poorly designed (not talking about Move BTW).

 

[donny2112]

I don't greatly care for motion controls. They're fine in some games. They can even be a lot of fun. I wouldn't want a whole generation of motion mostly just being swapped for button commands, though.

Pointing controls are wonderful, though. Every game where it makes sense should be using them. If PSMove can get more third-parties to give approval for good (mostly traditional) games that use the pointer, that'd be great. We've seen tons of reports of developers trying to sell a core game idea to a publisher, and as soon as they find out it's for Wii, the publisher says "no." Adding PSMove to that proposal may just get it off the ground, though, and that would be a great improvement.

 

[Corky]

Oh please

ugh


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21514124&postcount=1
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21514129&postcount=2
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21514173&postcount=7
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21514222&postcount=12

then I got bored , because I couldnt care less about this. Just love the hipocrisy. In every post that has the words " ps3 " and " wii " ( or words related to them ) in them. Do this little fun game. Switch them up and see how many of those would be "ban"-material.

 

[cakefoo]

Don't you mean software that's supposed to track 1:1.

Yes, I was responding to Selig's claim that the frisbee pre-throw control is 1:1, and never implied the hardware couldn't do more with different software.

The Wii remote even without M+ is capable of tracking up and down/side to side movement but what it's bad at is referential positioning. It's simply can't keep accurate track of how far it's moved in any direction which leads to the constant need for recalibration even with the M+ attachment which itself only adds rotational data. All those GIFs show is what the games are programed to read and unfortunately we're going to have three times the amount of those types of GIFs once Move and Natal launch and people delibrately look for ways to do things the devs never intended.

My gifs are in direct response to the claims that M+ is doing full 1:1. I am intentionally moving the remote in ways that show the absence of tracking, to show what axes are completely ignored by the software and to show that the claim that that part of the game is 1:1 is incorrect. MAKE NO MISTAKE: on the hardware side, M+ does gets close to 1:1 in LiveMove's tech demos, but because of the drifting after a wave or two, it'll be rarely incorporated into actual games, and then it would need painfully constant resetting.

If you kept track of the development of Grand Slam Tennis the devs mentioned in interviews how much they had to reduce the sensitivity of the controller with M+ in order to make the game playable. That game is one of the best uses of M+ so far but it's so unforgiving and the learning curve is so steep that I ended up moving on to something else before I mastered it. That's kind of what I interpret the direction Sony wants to take motion gaming in based on the OP and it's not something I'd look forward to.

M+ is so sensitive, and yet you have to recalibrate after every single swing.

Anyway, I'm not saying that more control = more challenge = better. In GST's case since they're recalibrating after every swing, it's my assumption they're already using M+ to its full potential, and with Wii's full potential in a short, brief stroke that recalibrates M+ every swing, it is pretty comparable to what Move does (although Move does it without so much as breaking a sweat because it has the camera, orb and magnetometer to maintain 1:1 on the fly). Therefore Move's version of tennis won't be too much more complex than what GST already is, I would imagine.

There are certain gameplay mechanics M+ won't have a problem with, but then there are plenty of others that it won't be able to do that Move can; like the Move Party minigames that incorporate augmented reality, like popping inflated fish with a harpoon, shaving and dyeing hair, etc. While they are casual in gameplay, they are very advanced compared to M+ in that they require absolute X, Y and Z axis positional data.

My whole stance is, that it can't be a bad thing to have tech that truly knows its full position and orientation at all times. And also, I'm irritated a bit by all the people who claim that Move's accuracy is only a marginal improvement measurable in degrees, when really it's a night and day difference due to Move being able to track 1:1 position on all 3 axes while M+ just tracks acceleration and orientation. While Wii has to rely on clever smoke and mirrors to give the illusion of 1:1, Move just effortless is 1:1.

Call me whatever you want but at the end of the day I want to pick up a game and play it. I don't have tens of hours available to master the controls of a game before I can enjoy playing it. I can remebered the times when I did so I'm not trying to shit on the parades of those who find that possiblity exciting but I definitely won't be signing up if the OP is to be believed.

That M+ needs smoke and mirrors to seem 1:1 should be a clear indicator that the controller's limitations might be holding back a large variety of gameplay. While the launch games only appear to be M++ games, the tech demos point to a hope for truly new core games. Sure M+'s LiveMove tech demos haven't made it into real games, but that's simply because the tech demos use a recalibration that wouldn't be approachable to casuals. Move's tech demos don't use any elements that would be daunting to consumers.