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Opinion Community Business Should Microsoft adjust their VR strategy?

kingpotato

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If you really think that, then you know very little about VR.

FOV, refresh rate, comfort and resolution are all way below where they need to be, so maybe 8 years before we get 8k per eye, 240hz With 200+FOV
I don't think this is a fair criticism. My sister lent me her Quest over Christmas last year and it was one of the best VR experiences I've had. Much better than the index with regard to comfort and usability. Those stats you posted would be great if course, but it's obviously not even close to a concern for many people.
 
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ZehDon

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Jun 13, 2013
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Oh wow, you got me! Just keep waiting for the gimmick to catch on to prove people like me wrong, it's gonna happen someday, right?!
You were wrong before you finished typing your first post - no waiting required. But please, don't let reality stand in your way - keep fighting the good fight... or whatever it is you think you're doing 🤷‍♂️
 

namekuseijin

Nintendo is for soys and kids. But my tears about them are for men.
Jun 10, 2020
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I don't care.

As far as I'm concerned, the only real nextgen console coming out soon is the Oculus Quest 2, even with outdated graphics. You're just there in the game world, weapon in your hands, free from cables and ancient input devices.

both xsex and ps5 are retro consoles to watch tv while pushing buttons on a gamepad, exactly like in the 80s. And they're really mostly hyping very old games with more pixels anyway.
 

namekuseijin

Nintendo is for soys and kids. But my tears about them are for men.
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It’s just not worth supporting VR. Sony have gone hard with it and <5% of their install base bought a VR headset.

here's a more interesting stat for you:


RE7 is available in most platforms, but VR mode is only available on psvr.

tell us how <5% of PS4 users with VR make up the 15% of all players from all platforms...
 

DonJuanSchlong

Spice Spice Baby
Jul 15, 2020
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The end of today, is tomorrow dust
I don't understand the need for wireless. You'll never get high framerate, high quality, and he wireless, any time soon. Unless you are comfortable with a big battery bank to keep things topped off. Just get a pulley and be done for.
 

MrFunSocks

Banned
Jul 9, 2020
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here's a more interesting stat for you:


RE7 is available in most platforms, but VR mode is only available on psvr.

tell us how <5% of PS4 users with VR make up the 15% of all players from all platforms...
How many copies has RE7 sold? 5% of 100 million is 5 million. If a good chunk of those 5 million people bought RE7, unless RE7 has sold 35 million copies it can easily be 15% lol.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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here's a more interesting stat for you:


RE7 is available in most platforms, but VR mode is only available on psvr.

tell us how <5% of PS4 users with VR make up the 15% of all players from all platforms...

Re 7 sold about 8 million copies. <5% of PS4 users would be somewhere over 5 million people. In order to be 15% of all people playing RE 7 1,200,000 people would need to be playing on PS4 in VR... so like 1/5th of everyone who owns VR on PS4. Not unbelievable.
 

ZywyPL

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Nov 27, 2018
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The companies who make VR titles have the very best, most accurate data of how much software sales there, how much revenue and profit it makes, and apparently it's completely not worth the effort, when even the most successful VR company to date which is Sony is not so certain if they want to go into it again for the PS5.
 

Ar¢tos

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Translation: "I can't afford a VR headset right now so let's pretend it doesn't exist okay?"

Xbox is limiting their own library by not having any VR support. Let people on the console decide if they want to buy a headset. Shutting it down entirely seems shortsighted. Cut a deal with a headset maker and be done with it.
No headset maker will make that deal.
They make no profit on the headset, the only profit they make is by selling their own games and 3rd party games on their own storefront.
Letting their headset work on Xbox would limit their profit only to their 1st party games since games would be sold on Xbox store.
If MS wants console VR they have to make it from scratch.
 

Resenge

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The companies who make VR titles have the very best, most accurate data of how much software sales there, how much revenue and profit it makes, and apparently it's completely not worth the effort, when even the most successful VR company to date which is Sony is not so certain if they want to go into it again for the PS5.

Everything you just said there, that whole post came from out of your arse mate. None of it is based in reality. EA has just launched a great Star Wars multiplayer game, Sony is putting a lot of R&D into the next PSVR, these are real facts that counter your made up facts.
 
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ZywyPL

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Everything you just said there, that whole post came from out of your arse mate. None of it is based in reality. EA has just launched a great Star Wars multiplayer game, Sony is putting a lot of R&D into the next PSVR, these are real facts that counter your made up facts.

Facts are there are barely any games for VR, and many VR owners openly admit their goggles are collecting dust most of the time.
 
Jan 12, 2010
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Well, its a longer term investment, but Oculus just made a 2kx2k headset with a new flagship lvl integrated cpu that can also be used for PCVR in a smaller form factor at 300 bucks. So the tech is sort of already here, its just about putting effort into creating an ecosystem and honing in on aspects that are rough around the edges. When foveated rendering, varifocal displays and wireless (not standalone) become the norm matched with things like Nvidias DLSS, it would kind of be insane not to support it. It makes some genres better on a fundamental level (racers/cockpit-based sims).

Also, currently available VR will be obselete in a few years because of how fast the tech is moving; people need to get out of the habit of comparing it to mature tech. VR won't level out for a long time so you have to look ahead sometimes rather than what's right in front of you. Either Spencer doesn't see the big picture or he's doing stuff in the background figuring out the best time to strike. My money is on the latter. I think we see VR on the Series X mid way through the gen.
 
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Ar¢tos

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Facts are there are barely any games for VR, and many VR owners openly admit their goggles are collecting dust most of the time.
PSVR2 must considerably improve image quality over psvr1.
Image quality is the biggest issue of psvr1 and the main factor holding back its adoption and, by direct consequence of that, the number of titles developed for it/ or with added VR modes.
If psvr2 is a decent headset with decent controllers (no more jurassic "moves") I can see both the install base and developer interest growing (which would also be good for pc VR).
 
Jan 12, 2010
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I think MS is simply waiting to see if this gen VR it's going to actually be important or not. Let others do the work first.

It's not as simple as that. Trillion dollar tech companies don't just use the "wait and see approach" on emerging tech that's at this stage. MS probably has hundreds of millions (if not billions) going into R&D in spatial tech, both AR/VR right now. I'm sure they have a bunch of possible scenarios going as far as VR/Xbox, it just isn't there yet.
 
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UltimaKilo

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I don't think this is a fair criticism. My sister lent me her Quest over Christmas last year and it was one of the best VR experiences I've had. Much better than the index with regard to comfort and usability. Those stats you posted would be great if course, but it's obviously not even close to a concern for many people.

You're right, it's not currently a concern because most people would never think of VR as more than just a 15-20 minute experience.

However, I have read a lot about people who get VR sickness. When you dig deep, most of these people are playing on Quest or a 90hz headset. Yes, most people will get used to it, but it can ruin your experience and keep you from playing a major RPG in VR. Right now very few headsets hit 120hz and only the Index can (kinda) hit 144hz.

Moreover, VR has yet to become comfortable. At the moment, the PSVR is the most comfortable, but even that can get uncomfortable. The Index comes in 2nd, but it also begins to get uncomfortable for long play sessions.

Field of view is huge for the experience. Right now, even a Pimax feels like you're wearing SCUBA goggles. Once we get to human vision, you'll be INSIDE the holodeck, rather than peeking through a wall.

All these things are holding VR back from mainstream. Microsoft doesn't need to be first to the party. Just like Apple, they just need to do it best and allow others to build the market.
 

Resenge

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Facts are there are barely any games for VR

An incomplete list of PSVR games over 660 games just on PSVR.

Oculus Quest launched with 53 games.
In comparison
Nintendo Switch launched with 10 games.
Here is the games library for the Quest as it stands right now. The Quest 2 launches in a week with more ram, much more powerfull CPU and GPU. This will open up the console for bigger and better games, not to mention it runs PCVR games also.

Speaking of PCVR games.
Here is a list of PCVR games on the Oculus store.
Here is a list of PCVR games on Steam.

But "VR has no games"


Special mentions go to Emulators that run in VR or PC games that have been modded to run in VR. Playing Doom 3 in VR makes the game way better, Brutal Doom on the quest is fantastic and I can switch out mods as easy as changing a setting. If you thought Alien Isolation was scary on a flat screen, its childs play compared to it being in VR. /oppinion

Most if not all PC games could be ported to VR and it would give a fresh new perspective on them, literally!


many VR owners openly admit their goggles are collecting dust most of the time.

My PS4 would be gathering dust if it wasn't for PSVR.
My Switch is gathering dust and another Nindies is the last fucking thing it needs.
Last gen, I bought the PS4, but for the past 4/5 years its been sitting there gathering dust. So I think this Gen, I'm just going to stick to PC.
It was gathering dust until Animal Crossing came out. And right now I'm busy with Paper Mario. I do not own games for the Switch, though.
I sold my XBox One because it was gathering dust.
With the amount of dust gathered on the Xbox One X I have sitting here, clearly not.
I didn't jump unto the switch for a long, long time because of lack of software. With the announcement of octopath traveler I finally bought one, and it's been gathering dust ever since then.
i was actually decided to get the ps5 but after the game announcements, none catched my attention, and repeating the story with the ps4 (1year gathering dust until bloodborne)
Eh...it's not very good. As a portable, it really isn't good. I find myself only playing docked, and the lack of power is very apparent. The only great game on it is BOTW IMHO. Been gathering dust ever since.
Include Other M or it's not even worth talking about. /s My Switch is gathering dust,
Buying PlayStation move and all the crap it went along with. It was fun for a week then it gathered dust and took up space.
Switch is at my girlfriend's house, she uses it for Pokemon and now Animal Crossing. It was gathering dust in my house.
...Played a bit of doom ascend and was quite disappointed. That was about a month or two back. Most likely going to sell my PC as it's gathering dust.
of side console to play a couple of Nintendo games every year, and maybe the occasional indie release that runs well. Mine has been gathering dust as of late
Sure. I don't really play the latest AAA games. My Xbone mostly gathers dust
My Switch gathers dust,
My PS4 has been literally gathering dust for the last 2 years or so, so yeah, I'm already there :)
I went upstairs to get my Switch and couldn't find it. Now It's been gathering dust since Zelda Link's Awakening released
I love my PS4 but currently is gathering dust because I'm mostly playing my Switch.
PS4 Pro, a Switch, my iPhone/iPad, and an Xbox One that (let's be honest) is gathering dust since there aren't many exclusives I consider must-haves.
My PS4 has been gathering dust for months and is only really used to play Blu Ray movies these days.
PS4 is too clunky and slow. Gathers dust. I don't really care about any of the games.
Got the PS4 initially just for Kingdom Hearts 3 and God of War. Sadly the console sat gathering dust until Bloodborne came.
I went with 2018 too because I traded my dust gathering PS4 in on the X and am loving how awesome RDR2 and everything else looks on it.
After a year gathering dust it seems like my Switch is finally going to get some use which is nice
PC will be fine for all Xbox related stuff and more, I have bought xbox every gen since 360 but always sell it as it always ends up gathering dust
Can't wait to play all those non existent games. My Switch has been gathering dust since Mario kart and zelda.
I think I have over 80 VR titles and I have loved the majority of them. Games that would be forgotten in flat are amazing in VR. I have both, and my Switch gathers dust. It just doesn’t fit my lifestyle

Heres a good quote.
The reasoning is that people are just talking shit online. Throw in a bit of Console Wars and there you go.

If you are into videogames then pretty much every console out there has something awesome for you. Unless you have a very, very, narrow and specific thing that you like and you just hate everything that isn't that.

Even older consoles and handhelds have a massive amount of quality content.

I've owned loads of different consoles over the years and never once owned something that didn't have awesome games to play.
So it doesn't really matter what system you get.

Some people just love the phrase "gathering dust".

Looks like gaming is screwed if we go with your logic. Fun fact, VR isn't for everyone, neither is the Switch, Xbox, PC, PS4 etc.
 
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Bojanglez

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I think it is inevitable that eventually Xbox Series X|S will both support VR, if they are smart they will allow 3rd party manufacturer headsets / controllers if they meet their standards (maybe the existing Win VR standards?)

I would imagine they would wait until the dust has settled on the launch though before they would talk of any plans for VR, same as with Sony.
 

nemiroff

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Feb 19, 2018
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Facts are there are barely any games for VR, and many VR owners openly admit their goggles are collecting dust most of the time.

It would be helpful if you at least stop pulling "facts" from...yeah..and at least try to make the blanket statements more contextual.

A more fair and balanced opinion would be to say that VR is a niche-like technology with active and positive advancements, and with massive future potential. VR is a one-way valve in that there's only going forward.

Anyway, again; With MS's recent involvement together with HP and Valve on the Reverb G2 I'd be surprised if there wouldn't be some sort of announcement of WMR VR support for the XSX at some time.
 
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Romulus

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Its funny reading forum opinions of VR then actually seeing the reactions to it in real life. Its definitely a gamechanger unlike anything else I've seen in 30 years.
 

Romulus

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Facts are there are barely any games for VR, and many VR owners openly admit their goggles are collecting dust most of the time.


Many openly admit it, most of the time lol.

Many consoles collect dust. I had an xbox one for 4 years and never touched it, meanwhile I played VR almost daily.

People also lie on forums. Not even trying, I've caught a few people on here making up stories about owning VR. They give themselves away with inaccurate info or forget they "owned" said hardware one month to "validate" their opinion, then weeks later they said they never did. Seen that several times.
 
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Wonko_C

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What pisses me off is Xbox buying studios that make VR games (InXile, Ninja Theory, Bethesda) they will be now forced to only make flat games. I won't play Elder Scrolls 6 now because it won't have a VR mode.
 
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INCUBASE

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Just invest in vr games

Pretty sure they already are, frostpoint I believe is a ms game/studio

I coukd be wrong
 

ZywyPL

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PSVR2 must considerably improve image quality over psvr1.
Image quality is the biggest issue of psvr1 and the main factor holding back its adoption and, by direct consequence of that, the number of titles developed for it/ or with added VR modes.
If psvr2 is a decent headset with decent controllers (no more jurassic "moves") I can see both the install base and developer interest growing (which would also be good for pc VR).


IMO that's a very false belief that the hardware is the sole issue holding VR from taking off, there could be 8K 240Hz wireless goggles and I bet nothing would change, if anything, it's the price that is the bigger issue for VR adoption, but then again, with 399$ PSVR hitting 5MLN units sold I think it's safe to say that's also not the limiting factor of how much dev focus there is for the VR titles. And still, the VR adoption can go only so far, most people didn't want to wear tiny, light 3D glasses, so they aren't going to wear an entire helmet, which on top of the inconvenience makes people vomit, there are just too many barriers, some unskippable, that make it really tough for VR to penetrate the broader market, and with just 2, 3, 5MLN userbase you can sell only so much software, so no wonde MS is not interested at all into it, especially given their new, GP-focused strategy.
 

Hudo

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They'll just buy Oculus off of Facebook if the need arises (comes with Carmack™ included).
 

Wonko_C

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They'll just buy Oculus off of Facebook if the need arises (comes with Carmack™ included).
I doubt Facebook wants to sell Oculus, when they're the company that keeps investing harder and harder each year.

MS also have their own Windows Mixed Reality line of VR headsets so they can just use their own.
 
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I'm sure we can find your twin in a usenet forum in the 1990s. "I hope Sega and Nintendo don't waste resources on the 32 bit gimmick. I just want my sprite games."

These are some top tier delusions you guys are experiencing. No one had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 32 bit era, the 3D era or whatever else. VR enthusiasts seem to think their hobby will become THE big thing by force ignoring that an idea doesn't take off without mainstream support. You could be right and it is the "future" of gaming but you guys are assuming this before the tech is actually there and it's actually remotely affordable to the average person. But even if it gets popular whose to say it's popularity won't just be the sort of flash in the pan something like motion controls were with the Wii? Despite that console's massive success motion controls are not now what gaming is all about. VR doesn't even have something comparable to that success to justify such a deluded belief.
 

The_Mike

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An incomplete list of PSVR games over 660 games just on PSVR.

Oculus Quest launched with 53 games.
In comparison
Nintendo Switch launched with 10 games.
Here is the games library for the Quest as it stands right now. The Quest 2 launches in a week with more ram, much more powerfull CPU and GPU. This will open up the console for bigger and better games, not to mention it runs PCVR games also.

Speaking of PCVR games.
Here is a list of PCVR games on the Oculus store.
Here is a list of PCVR games on Steam.

But "VR has no games"


Special mentions go to Emulators that run in VR or PC games that have been modded to run in VR. Playing Doom 3 in VR makes the game way better, Brutal Doom on the quest is fantastic and I can switch out mods as easy as changing a setting. If you thought Alien Isolation was scary on a flat screen, its childs play compared to it being in VR. /oppinion

Most if not all PC games could be ported to VR and it would give a fresh new perspective on them, literally!




My PS4 would be gathering dust if it wasn't for PSVR.
My Switch is gathering dust and another Nindies is the last fucking thing it needs.
Last gen, I bought the PS4, but for the past 4/5 years its been sitting there gathering dust. So I think this Gen, I'm just going to stick to PC.
It was gathering dust until Animal Crossing came out. And right now I'm busy with Paper Mario. I do not own games for the Switch, though.
I sold my XBox One because it was gathering dust.
With the amount of dust gathered on the Xbox One X I have sitting here, clearly not.
I didn't jump unto the switch for a long, long time because of lack of software. With the announcement of octopath traveler I finally bought one, and it's been gathering dust ever since then.
i was actually decided to get the ps5 but after the game announcements, none catched my attention, and repeating the story with the ps4 (1year gathering dust until bloodborne)
Eh...it's not very good. As a portable, it really isn't good. I find myself only playing docked, and the lack of power is very apparent. The only great game on it is BOTW IMHO. Been gathering dust ever since.
Include Other M or it's not even worth talking about. /s My Switch is gathering dust,
Buying PlayStation move and all the crap it went along with. It was fun for a week then it gathered dust and took up space.
Switch is at my girlfriend's house, she uses it for Pokemon and now Animal Crossing. It was gathering dust in my house.
...Played a bit of doom ascend and was quite disappointed. That was about a month or two back. Most likely going to sell my PC as it's gathering dust.
of side console to play a couple of Nintendo games every year, and maybe the occasional indie release that runs well. Mine has been gathering dust as of late
Sure. I don't really play the latest AAA games. My Xbone mostly gathers dust
My Switch gathers dust,
My PS4 has been literally gathering dust for the last 2 years or so, so yeah, I'm already there :)
I went upstairs to get my Switch and couldn't find it. Now It's been gathering dust since Zelda Link's Awakening released
I love my PS4 but currently is gathering dust because I'm mostly playing my Switch.
PS4 Pro, a Switch, my iPhone/iPad, and an Xbox One that (let's be honest) is gathering dust since there aren't many exclusives I consider must-haves.
My PS4 has been gathering dust for months and is only really used to play Blu Ray movies these days.
PS4 is too clunky and slow. Gathers dust. I don't really care about any of the games.
Got the PS4 initially just for Kingdom Hearts 3 and God of War. Sadly the console sat gathering dust until Bloodborne came.
I went with 2018 too because I traded my dust gathering PS4 in on the X and am loving how awesome RDR2 and everything else looks on it.
After a year gathering dust it seems like my Switch is finally going to get some use which is nice
PC will be fine for all Xbox related stuff and more, I have bought xbox every gen since 360 but always sell it as it always ends up gathering dust
Can't wait to play all those non existent games. My Switch has been gathering dust since Mario kart and zelda.
I think I have over 80 VR titles and I have loved the majority of them. Games that would be forgotten in flat are amazing in VR. I have both, and my Switch gathers dust. It just doesn’t fit my lifestyle

Heres a good quote.


Looks like gaming is screwed if we go with your logic. Fun fact, VR isn't for everyone, neither is the Switch, Xbox, PC, PS4 etc.

660 shovel ware games that never makes it on the charts.
 
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JCK75

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Personally they should make a breakout adapter with 2X HDMI and 1X Displayport so they can support all of the WMR headsets as well as the major players in the pC space (Index, vive,vice pro, oculus)
a move this flexible should be easily doable and give people more options in the price ranges they are comfortable with.
 

The_Mike

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Be serious, you don't know wtf your talking about, are we really going to have this argument again... Jesus it gets so boring.

I don't know what I'm talking about? Then show me the vr best seller that has made it to the charts.

Or does it only matter when it's ps exclusives?
 

INCUBASE

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Why is it trolling? I'm right.

Alyx was shovelware?............

I will say vr still don't have many aaa or even aa games

Plenty of great "experiences"

I still prefer vr tho, nothing comes close to FPS in VR (for me anyway)
 
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Redlight

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I don't think they need it, however more options for the consumer is always better than less. If they could find an easy way to support a third-party headset (or headsets) that might be the best solution.
 

The_Mike

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Alyx was shovelware?............

I will say vr still don't have many aaa or even aa games

Plenty of great "experiences"

I still prefer vr tho, nothing comes close to FPS in VR (for me anyway)

Sorry I forgot Alyx, the only reason to get VR. I can agree on that.
 

Flintty

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They should absolutely do whatever they can to let me plug my Rift S into the XSX. Fucking do it MS.
 

Resenge

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I don't know what I'm talking about? Then show me the vr best seller that has made it to the charts.

Or does it only matter when it's ps exclusives?
You want me to compare VR games with gaming consoles that have multiple decades of history and 100s of millions of users with a platform thats been around for 4 years? Fine! but your argument holds no water as it is early days for VR. VR games have charted though.

UK Sales Charts: Blood & Truth Is the First VR Title to Claim Number One
Astro Bot Rescue Mission remains in UK top physical sales chart for 5th week.
Astro Bot places No 22 in physical UK sales chart It went even higher than that.
UK Games Chart (5 PSVR Games in Top 40)

I await for your goal post moving response.

What I take exception to is your shovelware comment. There are loads of games that are not shovelware but you wouldn't know would you, since you don't own a VR headset or have little to no experience with what is actually out there for VR. Your comment is just trying to elicit a troll response.
 
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Zuzu

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Yes, I really want them to extend into VR. Maybe they could start by offering VR titles on GamePass on PC and then extend it to the Xbox. They could release their own headset to work on both the Xbox and the PC for GamePass VR titles. This might add some value to the headset if it worked on both platforms seamlessly and was integrated into GamePass. One limitation however, might be the Series S. It may have trouble pushing a high resolution headset and so the headset might have to be lower resolution.
 
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INCUBASE

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Sorry I forgot Alyx, the only reason to get VR. I can agree on that.

You also have games that are oculus exclusive that won't show in charts, that I'd consider full aa-aaa games

Lone echo 1+2
Asgard wrath
Storm lands
And MoH soon

You ha saints and sinners as well, that was pretty decent and I 5hink charted ok for a vr game

Vr is still in its infancy, but quest and soon quest 2 will increase the player base alot (hopefully)
 
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namekuseijin

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How many copies has RE7 sold? 5% of 100 million is 5 million. If a good chunk of those 5 million people bought RE7, unless RE7 has sold 35 million copies it can easily be 15% lol.

that's not the point

the point is that the 5% is misleading and that if on PS4 alone it sold, say, 5 million copies and about 1 million players played it on psvr, that's more like 20% of the player base for the game, not <5% of all PS4 players

most big games that got ports were very old games no one cares about anymore, RE7 was new and shiny and could be played in VR. I would very much want to see stats like this for SW Squadrons and Hitman 3...
 

ChuckeRearmed

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They will adjust their strategy in the future. For now MS is concentrated on other stuff.
In general for MC there are a lot of choices - after all it also owns PC market.
 

quest

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Hell no they need to first and for most put every dime plus effort on non vr first party titles. VR can wait they have bigger fish to fry. Once the 23 studios are rolling and the BC is expanded then maybe if it is still a thing.
 
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namekuseijin

Nintendo is for soys and kids. But my tears about them are for men.
Jun 10, 2020
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the only reason to get VR

:messenger_tears_of_joy:

I used to think VR so gimmicky and all it took for a change of pace was one of those gimmicky indie games in the demo disc to convince me otherwise - Job Simulator

flatties only take heed of VR once in awhile when a known flat game gets a port, it's like the tip of the iceberg. And any game with VR mode as rudimentary as only allowing you to move you head around instantly gets transformed from a mundane, boring tv watching experience into a bigger than life one.
 
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namekuseijin

Nintendo is for soys and kids. But my tears about them are for men.
Jun 10, 2020
2,370
2,540
605
Hell no they need to first and for most put every dime plus effort on non vr first party titles. VR can wait they have bigger fish to fry. Once the 23 studios are rolling and the BC is expanded then maybe if it is still a thing.

Btw, most of their studios have past experience with VR. surprisingly, even after the acquisition, inXile released their A Mage's Tale on psvr and they're just now coming up with a multiplayer shooter on pcvr...
 
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Mephisto40

Neo Member
Sep 21, 2020
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Microsoft are already heavily invested in VR, but they are trying to use it in business rather than gaming currently. I was at the last Future Decoded event they held and VR was being represented all over the place at that Expo, they just don't seem bothered about the gaming side of things for some reason
 
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