• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Should Prostitution Be a Crime? (NYT Magazine)

Status
Not open for further replies.

entremet

Member
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/should-prostitution-be-a-crime.html

This is a massive article as an FYI, so you may want to use Pocket or Instapaper for later reading.

But it does a detailed job at presenting both positions--for and against. This issue is also isn't monolithic amongst feminists, which the article details.

Some are for it remaining illegals and others are against it.

Some choice quotes.

ast November, Meg Muñoz went to Los Angeles to speak at the annual West Coast conference of Amnesty International. She was nervous. Three months earlier, at a meeting attended by about 500 delegates from 80 countries, Amnesty voted to adopt a proposal in favor of the “full decriminalization of consensual sex work,” sparking a storm of controversy. Members of the human rights group in Norway and Sweden resigned en masse, saying the organization’s goal should be to end demand for prostitution, not condone it. Around the world, on social media and in the press, opponents blasted Amnesty. In Los Angeles, protesters ringed the lobby of the Sheraton where the conference was being held, and as Muñoz tried to enter, a woman confronted her and became upset as Muñoz explained that, as a former sex worker, she supported Amnesty’s position. “She agreed to respect my time at the microphone,” Muñoz told me. “That didn’t exactly happen” — the woman and other critics yelled out during her panel — “but I understand why it was so hard for her.”

Muñoz was in the middle of a pitched battle over the terms, and even the meaning, of sex work. In the United States and around the globe, many sex workers (the term activists prefer to “prostitute”) are trying to change how they are perceived and policed. They are fighting the legal status quo, social mores and also mainstream feminism, which has typically focused on saving women from the sex trade rather than supporting sex workers who demand greater rights. But in the last decade, sex-worker activists have gained new allies. If Amnesty’s international board approves a final policy in favor of decriminalization in the next month, it will join forces with public-health organizations that have successfully worked for years with groups of sex workers to halt the spread of H.I.V. and AIDS, especially in developing countries. “The urgency of the H.I.V. epidemic really exploded a lot of taboos,” says Catherine Murphy, an Amnesty policy adviser.

The United States has some of the world’s most sweeping laws against prostitution, with more than 55,000 arrests annually, more than two-thirds of which involve women. Women of color are at higher risk of arrest. (In New York City, they make up 85 percent of people who are arrested.) So are trans women, who are more likely to do sex work because of employment discrimination. The mark left by a criminal record can make it even harder to find other employment. In Louisiana five years ago, 700 people, many of them women of color and trans women, were listed on the sex-offender registry for the equivalent of a prostitution misdemeanor. Women With a Vision, Deon Haywood’s group, won a lawsuit to remove them in 2013.

Because abolitionists see these women as victims, they generally oppose arresting them. But they want to continue using the criminal law as a weapon of moral disapproval by prosecuting male customers, alongside pimps and traffickers — though this approach still tends to entangle sex workers in a legal net.

The battle lines among American feminists over selling sex were drawn in the 1970s. On one side were radical feminists like the writer Andrea Dworkin and the lawyer and legal scholar Catherine MacKinnon. They were the early abolitionists, condemning prostitution, along with pornography and sexual violence, as the most virulent and powerful sources of women’s oppression. “I’ve tried to voice the protest against a power that is dead weight on you, fist and penis organized to keep you quiet,” wrote Dworkin, who sold sex briefly around the age of 19, when she ran out of money on a visit to Europe.

Other feminists, who called themselves “sex positive,” saw sex workers as subverters of patriarchy, not as victims. On Mother’s Day 1973, a 35-year-old former call girl named Margo St. James founded a group in San Francisco called Coyote, for “Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics.” Its goal was to decriminalize prostitution, as a feminist act. In its heyday, Coyote threw annual Hooker’s Balls, where drag queens and celebrities mixed with politicians and police. It was a party: In 1978, a crowd of 20,000 filled the city’s Cow Palace, and St. James entered riding an elephant.

By the 1980s, Dworkin’s argument condemning prostitution moved into the feminist mainstream, with the support of Gloria Steinem, who began rejecting the term “sex work.” St. James and the sex-positivists were relegated to the fringes.
 
I think it should be *legal. I've held that position for many years now. The mere idea that it is a crime seems really odd to me. Like, okay a person wants to sell a physical service. At that point, sex could be viewed on the same level as a massage or some other recreational luxury.

From a feminist angle, i've never understood why a feminist would object to it being legal. Like, obviously there are some women who are working as sex workers because they have no other avenue for income. But there are just as many who choose to work in sex work of their own volition, who enjoy it, and want to make it their primary form of income. By legalizing it, wouldn't we then potentially raise the standard of the service for everyone involved?

*edited for clarity
 

sikkinixx

Member
To paraphrase Carlin

Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?


Figure out a way to regulate it for the safety of all involved, tax it and get on with it.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
I don't get why it's considered a crime. Regulate it like any other industry, make it safe and get it off the streets.
It will never go away, people will always want it and people will always sell it.

But the USA is scared of nipples, and sex in general, so it will always be a crime there for sure.
 

DarkKyo

Member
No, but anyone with any real world common sense already knows this. Just waiting for the rest of society to catch up and then it can be regulated and generally much more sanitary.
 

platocplx

Member
It should be legal. If it was there would be so many people who may have been held against their will, be more willing to come forward since they wouldn't have any repercussions.
Also it goes on anyway regardless of laws in place. Might as well just tax it and let it go on imo.
 
It seems to happen all the time, everywhere, throughout recorded history. Might as well regulate it and try to protect the workers involved.
 

kavanf1

Member
Will read later, but my general reaction is that it should be legalised and controlled. Keeping it illegal seems a surefire way to make it harder for women engaging in prostitution to be protected.

Plus, they need to pay their fucking taxes like everyone else. Bloody scroungers.
 

kirblar

Member
Why is this illegal again? Is it just a prudish religious thing or are there actual reasons?
Prudish religion thing. Regulating it makes it much safer for the men/women involved and has spillover effects to the population at large - when Mass or RI (forget which) legalized prostitution by accident, sexual assault reports went down.
 
Why is this illegal again? Is it just a prudish religious thing or are there actual reasons?

Of course there are:

The United States has some of the world’s most sweeping laws against prostitution, with more than 55,000 arrests annually, more than two-thirds of which involve women. Women of color are at higher risk of arrest. (In New York City, they make up 85 percent of people who are arrested.) So are trans women, who are more likely to do sex work because of employment discrimination. The mark left by a criminal record can make it even harder to find other employment. In Louisiana five years ago, 700 people, many of them women of color and trans women, were listed on the sex-offender registry for the equivalent of a prostitution misdemeanor.

Basically racists and TERFs. And some are in positions of power, you know
 
I want to say no it shouldn't be illegal. But then I think about traffickers and just how much more damage they would do to get young women out there making them more money. Shit would be bad. Prostitutes hanging out in front of high schools and shit.
 

Nightbird

Member
someone tell the senate that they can actually put taxes on prostitution.

or wouldn't that be enough of a reason for them?
 

diamount

Banned
I'd argue there's more people trafficked into sweatshops than sex work, yet the selling of clothes isn't made illegal.

Why would that happen if it's legal in the country that clothing is made?

But if it were legal, it would be out in the open and regulated, there would be no trafficking.

Wishful thinking but as I said, in Germany minors are still been trafficked from Eastern European countries. Since it's a legal profession, these brothel owners (legal pimps) don't have to hide.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I could imagine that being thrown out as a pick up line at bars a whole lot if it was.

Can I buy you a drink?
No thanks.
I have $500 to take you home tonight.


Super fucking creepy. I don't know why, but it being illegal feels right to me. I'd have to see studies, but for right now I'm ok with it being illegal.
 
Nope. Regulate and tax it. Give the workers their rights.

Safer and better for everyone involved.

Wishful thinking but as I said, in Germany minors are still been trafficked from Eastern European countries. Since it's a legal profession, these brothel owners (legal pimps) don't have to hide.
Then the police is failing. Check it and make sure everyone is of age at least. Doesn't seem that hard.

There will be abuse, but less then having it illegal.

I want to say no it shouldn't be illegal. But then I think about traffickers and just how much more damage they would do to get young women out there making them more money. Shit would be bad. Prostitutes hanging out in front of high schools and shit.
Obviously there would be rules to prevent that. Do we have a lot of problems with drug dealers and alcohol sellers hanging around schools?
 
I want to say no it shouldn't be illegal. But then I think about traffickers and just how much more damage they would do to get young women out there making them more money. Shit would be bad. Prostitutes hanging out in front of high schools and shit.

Bringing it to the forefront and legitimizing it, with even a somewhat good system behind it, would likely do more to help against trafficking and forced prostitution than not.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Wishful thinking but as I said, in Germany minors are still been trafficked from Eastern European countries. Since it's a legal profession, these brothel owners (legal pimps) don't have to hide.

Just a few weeks ago (German article), the police of Berlin raided Berlin's largest brothel to go after trafficking. At least they know where to look and how to enforce the rules.
 
Wishful thinking but as I said, in Germany minors are still been trafficked from Eastern European countries. Since it's a legal profession, these brothel owners (legal pimps) don't have to hide.

That sounds like a failure by the German government in regulating it then.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Sex work should be highly regulated but not illegal. I do not like, however, the idea of the commodification of the human body and human labor in general since I'm anti-capitalist, and since many women become prostitutes because of desperate circumstances, what we need to focus on especially if changing the economic system so that people do not have to do it to survive in the first place.
 
Because of the trafficking element, maybe?

The trafficking is a problem in Germany but it's a difficult issue to solve, since by regulating it there is a market, but at the same time you have good safety nets for sex workers in general. It's ultimately better than having it illegal and also trafficking occurring.

There is good protection for sex workers in Germany. It's not perfect in Germany but police are very active in visiting and raiding brothels to enforce regulation and stop illegal activity. There are also a lot of gay brothels in the country (Berlin is after all the gay capital of Europe) that must adhere to the same regulation.

I definitely don't think it's perfect but I think it's on the right track in some places in at least protecting sex workers, especially regarding their health. It being regulated in Germany has made it much safer for sex workers than in other parts of the world where it's illegal.

It's a tough issue, but I really don't feel it's something that should be a crime. It needs regulation and protection while also measures to limit trafficking. It is at least half way to improving lives of sex workers, it's better than nothing at all in my opinion.
 

liquidtmd

Banned
'It's legal to have guns to shoot the fuck out of each other but don't you gals be selling your thing for men to put their thing in, ya hear'!!
 

ppor

Member
Personally I'd vote in favor of decriminalization, but pro-sex worker activists need to overhaul their PR and address the sex-trafficking issue in non-sidestepping way to appeal to voters.

I implore everyone listen to this NPR panel, and marvel at how pro-sex worker activists can be their own worst enemy.

KQED Forum - Decriminalize Sex Trade, Says Amnesty International
http://www.kqed.org/a/forum/R201509281000

In SF a few years ago, the proposition to decriminalize prostitution was defeated. I really wanted to support it, but it explicitly targeted banning police and prosecutors from targeting Asian massage parlors, otherwise local authorities would lose federal funding. I it's complicated and seems like racial profiling, but given the human-trafficking circles largely targets Asian women, I don't see how you can blanket ban taking race into account when investigating illegal prostitution.

News article on Prop K
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Prop-K-calls-for-legal-prostitution-in-S-F-3191781.php

Prop K voter guide (check out the pro-and-con endorsements)
http://sfpl4.sfpl.org/pdf/main/gic/elections/November4_2008.pdf
 

rjinaz

Member
No. Probably should be regulated though. And if it happens outside of regulation, it should not be anything anybody gets a record for. Fines or something like that.
 

kirblar

Member
The regulation isn't working then.
The regulation doesn't affect the things that are still illegal after you implement the regulation.

What it does is now make those things the most important thing for the cops to focus on, because the rest of the everyday garden variety stuff they no longer have to concern themselves with.
 

SheSaidNo

Member
Sex is a very unusual product and legalizing and regulating it needs to be fully thought out. When Germany first legalized it many woman lost unemployment benefits because they turned down sex working jobs, since there was a job available the government wouldn't give them full benefits of unemployment. Of course the governments realized who stupid this was, but it points to sex work as a specific product and needs more care than just yeah it's a service like other services and should be sold
 

Neo C.

Member
Making it illegal doesn't work, we have historical data which shows it, for example during the time of the protestant movement between 1500 and 1600. If prostitution isn't legal, women are generally more in danger.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
When Germany first legalized it many woman lost unemployment benefits because they turned down sex working jobs, since there was a job available the government wouldn't give them full benefits of unemployment.

I am German, and unless you can provide a source for that, I am calling bullshit.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
It seems like it would mean career suicide for a politician to champion the decriminalization of prostitution. It's a big enough scandal as it is for politicians to have any link to prositution, so I'd imagine few if any would want to touch the issue with a 10-foot pole.
 
Why is this illegal again? Is it just a prudish religious thing or are there actual reasons?

Another big argument (that would require regulated health information, which I'm in favor of) is that a lot of people that use prostitutes are cheating without consent, and there are quite a few diseases that can end up communicated back to the customer's family. This is easily solved with some regulation about condoms and regular health check-ups for the workers, but it's something that comes up from time to time (I know a few cops who've collared solicitors and found out that HIV got back to the guy's family without them knowing, so I get the worry).

I could imagine that being thrown out as a pick up line at bars a whole lot if it was.

Can I buy you a drink?
No thanks.
I have $500 to take you home tonight.


Super fucking creepy. I don't know why, but it being illegal feels right to me. I'd have to see studies, but for right now I'm ok with it being illegal.

That wouldn't really happen though. You could just go to a brothel and pay that without creeping or getting a drink thrown on you. It'd be like someone in a bar trying to buy your pants instead of just going to a clothing store to buy their own pants.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom