Support NeoGAF

[God Dayumm]

The existance of legal porn really makes the whole argument against decriminalization a hypocritical fraud. Its legal as long as its for the public's entertainment? Lol okay.

Careful before you attract the weirdos that want porn outlawed as well.

 

[ppor]

Yeah, sure, but like any legal business the employees can leave. Lots of scumbag business owners out there. I'm sure you can tell the difference between legal and illegal.

With trafficking, it's a lot more complicated. Say an analogy, working in a garment shop is not technically illegal, but putting trafficked slaves in unfair sweatshop situation is illegal. And for those illegal businesses, people cannot leave safely.

 

[Malleymal]

as with everything... it is something that can be sold and not taxed and government doesn't like that


It should not be a crime.

 

[Fuchsdh]

That really didn't help in Germany.

Yep. I don't see a lot of ethical reasons that prostitution shouldn't be legal and regulated, but a whole lot of the defenses that people come up with are simply bull. This magical land where women are suddenly respected, not abused, and not trafficked doesn't exist—in Germany it just fed demand that led to more women being imported, and even if the entire world had identical legislation that's still just increasing demand. That's the grim reality prostitution advocates have to own up to.

Want a safe product for the consumer? That means curtailing the prostitutes' rights, and in general probably reversing the law's application of "prostitute=victim". Want a hands-off, free market approach? You create huge spaces for abuse and are happily inviting explosions of STIs.

Thanks for the link, OP. Covered a lot more the schism between feminists and the history with the US administrations than I'd heard about.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Those against prostitution argue trafficking exists because of the demand for paid sex.

The demand is going to exist whether or not prostitution is legal. Making it illegal doesn't reduce the demand, because if it did we wouldn't have trafficking because it's currently illegal. Making it legal might not solve trafficking, but it will help better the lives of people who choose it as a way to make ends meet. It could also incentivize them to report incidents of trafficking because it wouldn't mean they themselves could be in legal trouble.

 

[Griss]

I'm cautiously pro-legalisation of prostitution.

It's funny, I've never had a problem with a woman (or any adult) selling access to her body, but I do have major issue with the commercial pornography industry. In short, for me: prostitution = good (well, okay), porn = bad.

But if there was one single philosophical argument that would give me pause to reconsider my stance on prostitution it would be the one in the following comment.

Prostitutes should not be punished for their circumstance, but I don't think it's good for sex to be an accepted commodity. The normalization of sex work is bad for both women and men, because when sex is treated as a product, consent is compromised. Unlike baking a wedding cake, sexual consent can't be reconciled with discrimination laws. Many prostitutes explicitly turn away clients of certain races, and many prostitutes refuse to patronize people of the same sex. This is contrary to the American legal system, but the alternative is state-sanctioned rape. In addition, the normalization of sex work has disconcerting implications for non-monetary sexual relationships.

Prostitution should stay illegal, but we should look upon sex workers with sympathy rather than scorn. Instead of sending these people to prison, we should help them find better economic opportunities.

 

[massoluk]

The existance of legal porn really makes the whole argument against decriminalization a hypocritical fraud. Its legal as long as its for the public's entertainment? Lol okay.

Yeah that too.
Getting money for sex is illegal, but it's ok if you film it.

 

[phisheep]

It isn't a crime here in the UK, and I don't think it should be. Consenting adults and all that.

Of course trafficking is bad and should be a crime, and of course it is (slavery, false imprisonment, extortion, kidnapping, rape etc). But if prostitution is also a crime it's going to be pretty well impossible to get evidence against traffickers.

At least, that's my logic - along the lines it is easier to trap bootleggers if the consumption of alcohol is legal.

However, the German experience suggests this might not be true (though I haven't seen evidence relating to successful prosecutions for trafficking, only that trafficking appears to have increased).

 

[akira28]

do work, don't just pass laws and expect shit to take care of itself. traffickers are a problem, so deal with them directly. Lawmakers are always trying to wizard this shit with no hands. "lets solve everything in one move, and if it doesn't work, then it wasn't worth trying."

this applies towards everything, but I see this topic and other decriminalization issue and they all seem to go the same way. People wanting to maintain distance for numerous reasons, and ultimately ignoring or kicking the can.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

Make it legal, make it safe. And tax the hell out of it.

 

[digdug2k]

Exactly, it's a silly argument. If you're being treated poorly, you report them and get a new job.

I think the counter argument would be that the vast majority of the women involved in prostitution aren't in great positions to start and quit jobs frequently. I have no data, but I'd guess they're usually people who are just desperate for anything, that heavy drug use is common, and that a legal-"pimp" still won't have much trouble gaining leverage over them.

There are a lot of sad societal problems that push women to prostitution. I don't think legalizing it is really an attempt to fix any of that. Its just trying to keep them from a criminal record/out of jail. But I think it was made illegal because we'd rather people with those problems go for help than that they start selling their bodies.

 

[MulderYuffie]

No not at all.

 

[Two Words]

Prohibiting selling alcohol was a huge failure in this country. I have no idea why we think prohibiting selling sex would be any more successful.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

Obviously there would be rules to prevent that. Do we have a lot of problems with drug dealers and alcohol sellers hanging around schools?

Actually yes, yes we do. Inside the schools even. It's also a non trivial matter from the position of sexual consent, discrimination, right of refusal, etc.

 

[Indelible]

Nope. should have been regulated long ago.

 

[Valhelm]

Depends on how it's regulated. Secondly, it's a lot harder to smuggle people into the US due to geographic constraints.

That's false. Human trafficking through land, air, and sea is an industry in our country. If we legalize prostitution, this industry will likely grow.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I am of the belief that you can't buy consent since money is a form of coercion. Thus prostitution should be illegal. However it should not be illegal to be a prostitute, rather only being a pimp or a john should be illegal.


Don't punish the women, many of whom are forced into prostitution by force or by circumstance. Punish the peddlers and consumers. It would make women who are prostitutes more likely to cooperate with authorities if they aren't facing criminal charges themselves.

 

[jadedm17]

It should not be a crime.

To paraphrase Carlin

Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?


Figure out a way to regulate it for the safety of all involved, tax it and get on with it.

Why is it legal if it's recorded? (Porn)

 

[Espada]

It shouldn't be illegal, prostitution being illegal has done little to reduce its frequency. Ultimately history will look back on this period in the same way we look back on prohibition and wonder why we didn't realize this sooner.

Make it legal, regulate it, and tax it.

 

[phisheep]

I am of the belief that you can't buy consent since money is a form of coercion. Thus prostitution should be illegal.

On that logic, the vast majority of contracts would be illegal. Buy a newspaper? Coercion. You'll be had up for theft of the newspaper since the vendor was coerced into giving it to you.

 

[Kthulhu]

I am of the belief that you can't buy consent since money is a form of coercion. Thus prostitution should be illegal. However it should not be illegal to be a prostitute, rather only being a pimp or a john should be illegal.


Don't punish the women, many of whom are forced into prostitution by force or by circumstance. Punish the peddlers and consumers. It would make women who are prostitutes more likely to cooperate with authorities if they aren't facing criminal charges themselves.

How can you not buy consent? Is porn rape to you too?

 

[Trigonometrize.]

It's kinda baffling to me you can sell guns in the U.S. (with a license of course), literal KILLING MACHINES, but not pleasure. Legalize it, regulate it, police it. Making it illegal is asinine imo.

 

[SheSaidNo]

On that logic, the vast majority of contracts would be illegal. Buy a newspaper? Coercion. You'll be had up for theft of the newspaper since the vendor was coerced into giving it to you.

How is that even a similar analogy, does a newspaper have the rights to consent? The newspaper is a product, like the woman in this case

 

[| Praxis |]

Seeming we are talking prostitution, who is the uk celebrity with a gagging order that slept with the escort I keep hearing about? Apparently Americans can know but the good old British public can't .

 

[Kthulhu]

How is that even a similar analogy, does a newspaper have the rights to consent? The newspaper is a product, like the woman in this case

In this case, sex would be a service.

Also people here are forgetting about male prostitutes. What about them?

 

[blakep267]

Prostitutes should not be punished for their circumstance, but I don't think it's good for sex to be an accepted commodity. The normalization of sex work is bad for both women and men, because when sex is treated as a product, consent is compromised. Unlike baking a wedding cake, sexual consent can't be reconciled with discrimination laws. Many prostitutes explicitly turn away clients of certain races, and many prostitutes refuse to patronize people of the same sex. This is contrary to the American legal system, but the alternative is state-sanctioned rape. In addition, the normalization of sex work has disconcerting implications for non-monetary sexual relationships.

Prostitution should stay illegal, but we should look upon sex workers with sympathy rather than scorn. Instead of sending these people to prison, we should help them find better economic opportunities.

Yea I remember the race thing being brought up in the other thread about this. Would making it legal all of a sudden make women have to accept all ages and races against their will? Wouldn't that cause even more problems

 

[Kthulhu]

Yea I remember the race thing being brought up in the other thread about this. Would making it legal all of a sudden make women have to accept all ages and races against their will? Wouldn't that cause even more problems

Wouldn't forcing bakers to serve gay people against their will cause problems?

 

[dave is ok]

Seeming we are talking prostitution, who is the uk celebrity with a gagging order that slept with the escort I keep hearing about? Apparently Americans can know but the good old British public can't .

Hugh Grant got caught with one. It was really big news though so I'm not sure how much a gag order would help.

 

[boiled goose]

Prostitution illegal.

Pay someone to have sex with you and film it. Legal.

 

[blakep267]

Wouldn't forcing bakers to serve gay people against their will cause problems?

Are the bakers government regulated?

 

[Kthulhu]

Are the bakers government regulated?

Technically yes.

 

[Khoryos]

How is that even a similar analogy, does a newspaper have the rights to consent? The newspaper is a product, like the woman in this case

For starters, the sex worker is a service provider, not a product.

And I don't know about your country, but in mine you have the right to refuse service.

 

[Count Dookkake]

There are no compelling arguments against legalized prostitution.

 

[blakep267]

Technically yes.

What would stop me from bringing a lawsuit against the person or brothel etc

Btw I'm not saying I'm against it. It doesn't bother me, but what does bother me is the discrimination that comes with it. That's like legalizing weed but this particular group of people can be denied it on the whim of the provider

 

[phisheep]

How is that even a similar analogy, does a newspaper have the rights to consent? The newspaper is a product, like the woman in this case

The newpaper vendor may consent or not to the sale. Or, if you want to go for services, what about haircutting?

 

[Kthulhu]

What would stop me from bringing a lawsuit against the person or brothel etc

Btw I'm not saying I'm against it. It doesn't bother me, but what does bother me is the discrimination that comes with it. That's like legalizing weed but this particular group of people can be denied it on the whim of the provider

Are you saying prostitutes should be able to discriminate or not? Because I'm saying the shouldn't, same as every other business.

 

[E92 M3]

Are you saying prostitutes should be able to discriminate or not? Because I'm saying the shouldn't, same as every other business.

It's trickier than other businesses, obviously. I think all prostitutes should have the right of refusal. That's common sense since they are selling their bodies and not just baking a cake.

 

[InfiniteBento]

I don't see anything wrong with it as long as the individual decides this is what they want to do rather than being forced to do so by someone else via violence or other similar scenarios.

If its safe and consensual, theres nothing wrong with it in my book.

 

[Sylas]

For starters, the sex worker is a service provider, not a product.

And I don't know about your country, but in mine you have the right to refuse service.

I was gonna say--isn't it basically as simple as not saying why you're refusing service? Oftentimes the things we hear about in regards to people refusing service to LBGTQ individuals is because those people are very outspoken about why they've refused the service.

 

[John Kowalski]

No. Illegality only impedes proper support and defending their rights.

 

[blakep267]

Are you saying prostitutes should be able to discriminate or not? Because I'm saying the shouldn't, same as every other business.

I'm saying that they shouldn't be allowed to say "no black guys. just my preference". But I feel weird saying that because I wouldn't want to force somebody to bang somebody that they don't want to, but also as a business I'm not standing for discrimination

 

[Chainsawkitten]

We can not view prostitution as "just another job". Prostitution is rife with abuse, both in the form of human trafficking and in other forms. If prostitution should be legalized, it should not be on the grounds that it is acceptable business but rather that legalization would lead to less abuse, such as less trafficking and safer workplaces.

Criminalizing being the subject of abuse is ridiculous and nonsensical. However, criminalizing abuse certainly makes sense. This means "pimps" and "johns", rather than prostitutes. Criminalizing prostitutes only means prostitutes are afraid to seek protection out of fear of being prosecuted themselves. So if it should be illegal, then "pimps" and "johns" should be punished, not prostitutes.

There is still the argument to be made that legalizing prostitution entirely would lead to less abuse. When legal prostitution is available, people would use that rather than prostitution that's a result of trafficking, thus legalization would lead to less trafficking.

This is false. Legalizing prostitution leads to increased trafficking. (Seo-Young Cho et al.) Legalized prostitution leads to an increased demand for prostitution overall, expanding the market, including that of trafficking.

This is far from the only study on the topic. Every time I've searched for studies on the topic my conclusions have been the same. I've yet to see any studies showing decreased trafficking with legalization. So pro-legalizers, please show me the hard evidence.

 

[E92 M3]

I'm saying that they shouldn't be allowed to say "no black guys. just my preference". But I feel weird saying that because I wouldn't want to force somebody to bang somebody that they don't want to, but also as a business I'm not standing for discrimination

There doesn't need to be reasoning, but if prostitution is legalized, the right of refusal is a must.

 

[Rentahamster]

It shouldn't be a crime. If a girl wants to pay me to fuck her brains out, I don't see how that's anyone else's goddamn business.

 

[SheSaidNo]

The newpaper vendor may consent or not to the sale. Or, if you want to go for services, what about haircutting?

Sex with someone is a protected right, getting a haircut is not. You can threaten a person to consent to sex, but it's still rape. What's the difference between threatening someone vs holding money they need to survive. It's not a real choice either way

 

[Svette Armhuler]

I honestly dont know which side to take on this issue. Both options have implications that can be harmful to society.

Still..
Sex can be such a intimate and emotional experience to people. Should it be a thing that should be legitimately commercialized? Yes there will always be a demand for these things. Does that make it okay though? I honestly dont know.

 

[akira28]

no one is going to sue a prostitute because she didn't give them a handy.

no one is going to take an escort to court because they didn't want to go on a date or even stay home. The provider is not a product, and whatever services are provided are probably not as concretely defined as a cake or even customer service.

so mentally un-click those two selections please, and if necessary, the law needs to address it if it doesn't already make obvious common rational sense to everyone in general.

sex workers have the right to say no, no questions asked. And they should, right?

 

[InfectedZero]

Its porn. Like a POV one, but it's live! And it's your Johnson being rangeled. People just want to get off, what's the big deal.

 

[Sylas]

We can not view prostitution as "just another job". Prostitution is rife with abuse, both in the form of human trafficking and in other forms. If prostitution should be legalized, it should not be on the grounds that it is acceptable business but rather that legalization would lead to less abuse, such as less trafficking and safer workplaces.

Criminalizing being the subject of abuse is ridiculous and nonsensical. However, criminalizing abuse certainly makes sense. This means "pimps" and "johns", rather than prostitutes. Criminalizing prostitutes only means prostitutes are afraid to seek protection out of fear of being prosecuted themselves. So if it should be illegal, then "pimps" and "johns" should be punished, not prostitutes.

There is still the argument to be made that legalizing prostitution entirely would lead to less abuse. When legal prostitution is available, people would use that rather than prostitution that's a result of trafficking, thus legalization would lead to less trafficking.

This is false. Legalizing prostitution leads to increased trafficking. (Seo-Young Cho et al.) Legalized prostitution leads to an increased demand for prostitution overall, expanding the market, including that of trafficking.

This is far from the only study on the topic. Every time I've searched for studies on the topic my conclusions have been the same. I've yet to see any studies showing decreased trafficking with legalization. So pro-legalizers, please show me the hard evidence.

Anecdotally, I don't believe the current legal system is set up for the proper "legalisation" of prostitution and sex work. As you said, the abuse needs to be criminalized and not the act of prostitution--but the two are too intrinsically linked by the reality of human nature to make the complete and blanket legalization of the act a good idea.

I don't really have any answers to how the system could work, but I do think it's important to create a system where a victim of abuse is able to seek out justice for what happened to them--whether or not it was on the "job". Once we have a system in place where sexual and physical abuse is taken more seriously we stand a better chance at making prostitution legal.

It's nice to think that a brothel would crop up in most cities and be a nice place to work, but that's not the reality in the slightest. People should have the right to purchase sex and people should have the right to sell sex, but until (and if) it's able to be removed from the abuse that comes along with it, I can't get 100% behind the idea.

Though it should be easier for camgirls et al to get paid.

 

[blakep267]

no one is going to sue a prostitute because she didn't give them a handy.

no one is going to take an escort to court because they didn't want to go on a date or even stay home. The provider is not a product, and whatever services are provided are probably not as concretely defined as a cake or even customer service.

so mentally un-click those two selections please, and if necessary, the law needs to address it if it doesn't already make obvious common rational sense to everyone in general.

Ok so hypothetically if prostitution were to be made legal and hypothetical 90% of the brothels/ women only see white men, that would be an ok outcome

And I'm not saying that they have to be forced to do anything, but the above scenario just doesn't sit right with me, and it's not just about prostituion o would let like that for any sector of business