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[CaptainTiptop]

If 3D World can't save the Wii U, then...

Well, let's just hope it has legs.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I would disagree; I would say Smash would be the final test. It's the only huge franchise by Nintendo that hasn't been released ad nauseam.

Smash is always a big franchise, but I don't expect it to succeed where the big Mario titles have already failed (assuming they all fail).

 

[Solid Samus]

Well a less ambitious but still pretty good example is Super Mario Galaxy. That shook up the formula and introduced many new gameplay concepts.

So does 3D World believe it or not but you're calling bullshit because it doesn't have an overarching gimmick and it doesn't beat you over the head with its advancements

And pointing out that the game is scoring (slightly) less than the highest rated Mario game (and on par with a certain other lauded and beloved 3D Mario that had the benefit of being something fresh and new in every single aspect of its design) just says to me that you didn't read the content of the reviews that largely said outright that this game has the same kind of ingenious design and variety and new gameplay concepts as Galaxy did.

 

[greg400]

So?

The hits against 3D World not being as innovative or fresh as Galaxy is entirely opinion based. Personally I found the leap forward with 3D multiplayer platforming that actually works a bigger feat over what either Galaxy accomplished (both of which I completed 100%). Not only is it a great multiplayer game but it's also just as good in single player with the same level design. Very few developers would have the ability to pull this off properly.

Which is inflated by

Exclusive = 44 (31 at retail)
Console exclusive and/or timed = 25 (2 at retail)
Multiplatform = 139 (79 at retail, 60 download-only))
Cancelled = 4

So if we compare physical releases there's 112 games.

Which is fairly close to the amount on GameCube in its first year.

 

[Darryl]

If 3D World can't save the Wii U, then...

Well, let's just hope it has legs.

Yea pretty much how I feel. It doesn't need to turn the console into the #1 seller but if this doesn't curve that bleeding I don't think it is going to be getting much better any easier. This was their Holiday to get a break in on the family market. Next Holiday it could easily be all about the PS4 or XB1.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Smash is always a big franchise, but I don't expect it to succeed where the big Mario titles have already failed (assuming they all fail).

It's historically been one of the top-selling games on every console, matching Mario on Wii, and beating in on GameCube, where it also outsold Double Dash.

I think it targets a slightly different--and older--demographic than either Mario or Mario Kart so I don't it makes sense to discount it.

 

[orioto]

Don't play "gotcha" games with me. You know exactly what i'm talking about.

3D world isn't a monumental leap forward its just repeating what Nintendo has been doing with NSMB fused with the aesthetics and level design of Mario 3D Land on the 3DS. There is a reason why its even scoring lower than the Galaxy games.

Actually i totally agree with you on the whole lack of ambition of mario games. I've been there and attacked by a horde of Nintendo fans to! I even think this lack of R&D focused on making a new mario 64 (meaning redefining the base control of vg, not in an alternative way, but a progressive one) is not helping vg in general. Nintendo has to be the leader, not do his own thing in his corner.

Now, i also think this mario game, even if i don't specially like its "party" aspect, has everything to be a success in Japan, and seems really good if i believe GAF and others. The way it tanks in Japan is not really understandable to me, except for the fact that WiiU is simply straight rejected by everyone, as a Nintendo home console that doesn't offer anything more than a portable. And i can feel that. Look at the next mario kart. I loved MK7, so much.. that i'm not sure i really want a TV mario Kart now.. I'd rather prefer a new 3ds one. At this point, Nintendo has fused with the portable gaming world. This market IS Nintendo and Nintendo IS this market.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

The hits against 3D World not being as innovative or fresh as Galaxy is entirely opinion based.

No shit. Did anyone argue it wasn't an opinion? Was that not explicitly obvious by it being an opinion?

 

[Anticitizen One]

The ones who are crazy enough to think they can change the world....are often the ones that do

 

[Solid Samus]

Nintendo used to make it look easy

They still do, god damn man

 

[Anticitizen One]

They still do, god damn man

Adding a catsuit power up to a game is not ambition.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

It's historically been one of the top-selling games on every console, matching Mario on Wii, and beating in on GameCube, where it also outsold Double Dash.

I think it targets a slightly different--and older--demographic than either Mario or Mario Kart so I don't it makes sense to discount it.

I think Kart and Smash are largely games that sell to the audience that has the console, not games that sell the console to an audience that wouldn't otherwise have it. I expect nothing but good sales for these games relative to the userbase, but nothing that pushes the platform itself.

But then, I'm one that has never seen the appeal of Smash Brothers, so my perspective isn't unbiased, although I love Mario Kart. Except for Double Dash, that game was crap.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Nintendo used to make it look easy

Mario World wasn't really innovative at all though. Far less so than 3D World in truth. And as I said, Galaxy isn't really more innovative either. THe difference is that Galaxy had one pervasive gimmick that was really obvious from screenshots, but that isn't what made Galaxy a fantastic game by any stretch. 3D world has just as many really creative stages and ideas as Galaxy, if not more

 

[ViewtifulJC]

The game sales will be in proportion to the install base. Mario Kart sells 30 million when there are a hundred consoles out there, compared that to the four million Double Dash put out for the GC. Wii U Zelda, MK, 3D Mario, Smash, etc will all be the lowest selling entries in their respective franchises. Wii U sales will just...be what they are. 20-25 million maybe around the five year mark, like the GC before it.

 

[metalslimer]

Can someone tell me exactly what was that ambitious with Galaxy? I mean Galaxy 2 is my favorite of all time, but what did Galaxy do that was so mindblowing? It had amazing level design and it seems 3D World does too. I think 4 player 3d mario is bigger than any innovation that came out of Galaxy.

 

[greg400]

No shit. Did anyone argue it wasn't an opinion? Was that not explicitly obvious by it being an opinion?

"It is literally impossible to make a game as fresh and innovative as Mario 64 was for it's time"
"Mario Galaxy basically did it"

But really it was more directed towards Anticitizen as he continues to make claims as if he has factual evidence that 3D World is less innovative than previous entries.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

I think Kart and Smash are largely games that sell to the audience that has the console, not games that sell the console to an audience that wouldn't otherwise have it. I expect nothing but good sales for these games relative to the userbase, but nothing that pushes the platform itself.

But people buy the consoles to play games such as those...

 

[Steve Youngblood]

It's historically been one of the top-selling games on every console, matching Mario on Wii, and beating in on GameCube, where it also outsold Double Dash.

I think it targets a slightly different--and older--demographic than either Mario or Mario Kart so I don't it makes sense to discount it.

Sure, but it didn't come anywhere near the sales of either Mario Kart or New Super Mario Bros. on the Wii. That's all I'm getting at. If we're at the point where Mario Kart, 3D Mario, and New Super Mario Bros. have failed to make a dent, I don't know why we would hold out that Smash is going to be some gamechanger.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Can someone tell me exactly what was that ambitious with Galaxy? I mean Galaxy 2 is my favorite of all time, but what did Galaxy do that was so mindblowing? It had amazing level design and it seems 3D World does too. I think 4 player 3d mario is bigger than any innovation that came out of Galaxy.

Didn't you hear, innovation in a game is all about how cool a screenshot you can take from it, rather than about things like what new ideas it actually brought to the table

 

[Solid Samus]

Adding a catsuit power up to a game is not ambition.

Continuing to boil 3D World's advancements down to nothing like that is disingenuous and ignores every single positive thing said about the game in a questionable attempt to justify your logic.

Come on man. I'm trying not to be an asshole about this game after my arguments with Freezie but you're just outright being unfair to it and you should know it at this point.

 

[orioto]

I think Kart and Smash are largely games that sell to the audience that has the console, not games that sell the console to an audience that wouldn't otherwise have it. I expect nothing but good sales for these games relative to the userbase, but nothing that pushes the platform itself.

But then, I'm one that has never seen the appeal of Smash Brothers, so my perspective isn't unbiased, although I love Mario Kart. Except for Double Dash, that game was crap.

And by the way, people should remember that NGC smash sold A LOT in japan. Didn't save the console..

 

[Anticitizen One]

Mario World wasn't really innovative at all though. Far less so than 3D World in truth. And as I said, Galaxy isn't really more innovative either. THe difference is that Galaxy had one pervasive gimmick that was really obvious from screenshots, but that isn't what made Galaxy a fantastic game by any stretch. 3D world has just as many really creative stages and ideas as Galaxy, if not more

Super Mario world had beautiful next gen graphics for its time though. Graphically it was a big generational leap from the NES and Master System.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

"It is literally impossible to make a game as fresh and innovative as Mario 64 was for it's time"
"Mario Galaxy basically did it"

But really it was more directed towards Anticitizen as he continues to make claims as if he has factual evidence that 3D World is less innovative than previous entries.

Thanks for the clarification. "Literally impossible" is indeed hyperbolic. With that said, while it is--strictly speaking--a matter of opinion, I really can't see how anyone could argue 3D World is more innovative than either Mario 64 or Galaxy.

That doesn't mean it's not a great game, just not a particularly innovative one (imo).

 

[Anticitizen One]

Continuing to boil 3D World's advancements down to nothing like that is disingenuous and ignores every single positive thing said about the game in a questionable attempt to justify your logic.

Come on man. I'm trying not to be an asshole about this game after my arguments with Freezie but you're just outright being unfair to it and you should know it at this point.

Can you name the advancements?

Because I played through 3D Land and I'm on the last boss of 3D World and aside from the standard upgrades that are made to all annualized or bi-annual sequels INCLUDING Call of Duty I'm not seeing any huge innovations here.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Adding a catsuit power up to a game is not ambition.

You really think that's all they did? Add a power up?

 

[Kyzer]

Can someone tell me exactly what was that ambitious with Galaxy? I mean Galaxy 2 is my favorite of all time, but what did Galaxy do that was so mindblowing? It had amazing level design and it seems 3D World does too. I think 4 player 3d mario is bigger than any innovation that came out of Galaxy.

Coming from sms when you boot up the game you see stellar AAA graphics of mario moving from planet to planet in outer space. The atmosphere and scale make the experience.

sm3dw is a fun game but it doesnt melt your face off without even playing it like galaxy did.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Sure, but it didn't come anywhere near the sales of either Mario Kart or New Super Mario Bros. on the Wii. That's all I'm getting at. If we're at the point where Mario Kart, 3D Mario, and New Super Mario Bros. have failed to make a dent, I don't know why we would hold out that Smash is going to be some gamechanger.

The same logic would also apply to Mario Kart then. The only difference is it has one less preceding datapoint.

 

[Anticitizen One]

You really think that's all they did? Add a power up?

Was Crash Bandicoot 2 a huge monumental leap forward from Crash Bandicoot 1? How about Assasins Creed 1 to AC 2? Because that is the difference between 3D Land and 3D World

Your really gonna try and tell me its as big of a leap as Super Mario Bros to Super Mario World? Or Super Mario World to Super Mario 64? or Super Mario 64 to Galaxy? REALLY?

 

[Cygnus X-1]

There is nothing ambitious about Mario 3D World

Geez who cares - a game is fun because it's fun, not because it's ambitious. So many games end up being called ambitious and then they are utterly boring.

 

[timetokill]

pics

Adding a dinosaur you can ride to a game is not ambition.
Adding gravity mechanics to a game is not ambition.

Etc.

You're being ridiculous in your dismissal of 3D World, as though all it adds is a catsuit. But I suspect you already know that and you're having a laugh as usual.

 

[metalslimer]

Coming from sms when you boot up the game you see stellar AAA graphics of mario moving from planet to planet in outer space. The atmosphere and scale make the experience.

sm3dw is a fun game but it doesnt melt your face off without even playing it like galaxy did.

Ok so it's innovation was the scale it was at? I just don't think it's fair to blame 3D World's lack of innovation as the reason it's not selling when 3D Land did even less and sold so much more.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Don't even see the point debating. The Sales numbers speak for themselves and will continue to do so.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Super Mario world had beautiful next gen graphics for its time though. Graphically it was a big generational leap from the NES and Master System.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with innovations. ANd graphical leaps like we had in earlier generations have pretty much gone away. Honestly, the most innovative 3d Mario game since 64 was 3d land, since it pretty much did away with most of the rules that 64 had established. And 3D world is also leagues more innovative than Galaxy if only for the addition of actual coop multiplayer in a 3d Mario game being a much bigger addition than gravity mechanics

 

[greg400]

Was Crash Bandicoot 2 a huge monumental leap forward from Crash Bandicoot 1? How about Assasins Creed 1 to AC 2? Because that is the difference between 3D Land and 3D World

Your really gonna try and tell me its as big of a leap as Super Mario Bros to Super Mario World? Or Super Mario World to Super Mario 64? or Super Mario 64 to Galaxy? REALLY?

Find me another 3D platformer with multiplayer that works just as well in single player. The level design is so expertly crafted to work in both modes, a greater leap than the majority of what you're stating. Especially SMB to SMW, which conveniently skips over SMB3.

 

[Sendou]

Don't even see the point debating. The Sales numbers speak for themselves and will continue to do so.

What exactly are they telling us in this context? Is it a good game? Is it an innovative one? What a beautiful world this would be if those translated to sales.

 

[Lambtron]

Don't even see the point debating. The Sales numbers speak for themselves and will continue to do so.

Well because clearly sales numbers speak for the quality of games. NSMB Wii which people constantly shit on crushed Galaxy and Galaxy 2 if you combine them. Clearly it was a better game.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

The same logic would also apply to Mario Kart then. The only difference is it has one less preceding datapoint.

Mario Kart would be the followup to a title that sold 35 million copies on the Wii. Smash is going to be the followup to a title that sold 10 million on the Wii. I'm not sure of where the disconnect is here. I readily admit that Smash is going to be a big release. I'm not trying to discount its importance. I'm just saying that if we find ourselves facing disappointing Kart numbers, I personally won't be holding out much hope for Smash as the title that will turn the tide. I love Smash Bros., but I don't have a lot of faith that it would get the ship back on course in terms of its unique selling power unless we're just arguing for the cumulative quality of the platform's library by then.

 

[Satchel]

What the fuck at Sunshine.

So yeah, home consoles are basically dead in Japan at this point?

 

[AzaK]

Honestly, I don't know how to respond to this. Mario 3D World is one of the best games of the year, and if that level of polish is ignored by consumers, well, that's a problem for everyone. To all of you reveling in this news; I don't understand why you'd want to see this or any game of its caliber fail. Leave your fucking allegances at the door, because this is bad news for the game industry as a whole, and not just Nintendo. I'm seriously concerned about where gaming goes from here.

Maybe in this world of now boundless gaming options, Mario just can't sell consoles by himself any more?

 

[metalslimer]

Don't even see the point debating. The Sales numbers speak for themselves and will continue to do so.

That's not how this works though. If the Wii U was actually a success then a failure could be blamed on the game, but Wii U is a categorical failure so how does it make sense to blame the game here. If Galaxy had come out for Wii U it would have failed as well. SM64 probably would have too.

 

[Freezie KO]

Yeah, I'm happy about low sales for this one. As a Nintendo fan, it's been disappointing to see them rely on so many direct sequels and remakes and straight up rehashes, especially with their main franchises that used to see innovation, ambition, and creativity.

While these sales are bad for Wii U, the platform is unhealthy anyway. I'm more concerned about what good sales for 3D Land Part II would've meant for Nintendo as a whole. Hopefully Nintendo will learn they need to take risks and release games that actually excite people again, rather than a few token sequels coupled with minigame collections.

Also, the continued line-up of Wii Fit expansion, Wii Party, Wii Sports Remake did little to support their multiplayer Mario game. The Wii Moms are gone for them. If this means Nintendo changes course, then I see the lower sales as one step back to take two steps forward.

This obviously relies on the specious assumption that Nintendo will actually take away the right lessons. They need to learn that they've alienated even their most hardcore supporters leading to lower sales than even Gamecube. They need to learn that their extremely conservative software strategy is doing more harm than good.

If they are willing to learn (or get new management that is), then maybe Nintendo can turn around their trajectory of complete irrelevance in the console market.

 

[Loco4Coco]

Don't even see the point debating. The Sales numbers speak for themselves and will continue to do so.

Yeah because low sales number always equal to bad game.

 

[Kyzer]

Ok so it's innovation was the scale it was at?

Oh right, fair enough, I guess it wasnt really all that innovative. But I just meant to say you could look at galaxy and go holy shit that must be the new mario. With 3d world its like eh. Sorry I shouldnt have used your post as a point of entry for my contribution to the discussion.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Geez who cares - a game is fun because it's fun, not because it's ambitious. So many games end up being called ambitious and then they are utterly boring.

Why are you asking me this? I said earlier it's a great game. It's not just an ambitious one, which is what the Wii U really needs

 

[Solid Samus]

Can you name the advancements?

Because I played through 3D Land and I'm on the last boss of 3D World and aside from the standard upgrades that are made to all annualized or bi-annual sequels INCLUDING Call of Duty I'm not seeing any huge innovations here.

I'll just drop this here

Much of what I've said over the last three pages contradicts that position (and the reasoning that this game is lacking any originality or soul of its own) and provides valid reasoning for such. If you feel that the game doesn't feel original enough for you than fair enough. I'm saying that there's a lot more originality and creativity on display in this title than you give it credit for, even if it can be found in a title which at first glance gives off a safe vibe due to Nintendo's unreasonably boilerplate first round of marketing for the game.

You can pine all you want for the next big bombastic Mario given that Nintendo's given us no reason to believe there won't be another one but after two of the best in one generation with middling sales you'd think you'd be a little less disappointed that Nintendo put out just ONE 3D console Mario that defies the expectations of traditional 3D Mario to boost the 3D series' relevance and userbase without compromising their inspired game design philosophies, or at least display a little faith in them to defy your expectations occasionally without people going into DEY HAVE FORSAKEN US mode on a dime.

3D Land might affect the core of 3D World but there's tons of differences big and small setting them apart. More varied movement options with tweaked movement and momentum across four characters suited to different platforming challenges, with level design concepts that go far beyond the more traditional base platforming level design found in 3D Land and powerups and stage gimmicks that shake up the concepts of 3D traversal and enemy avoidance/dispatching in Mario games more than any since Mario 64's various Caps (and therefore help to lead to new level design concepts to begin with). I still feel like it's unfair to judge 3D World based on the limitations of 3D Land or the implication that as it's built on the foundation of 3D Land it doesn't do enough to stand out on its own, when nearly all the media and reviews out there go against that idea in spades.

I'm not even saying to take reviews at face value despite their unanimity but it's worth considering that 3D World doesn't have an overarching gimmick like gravity or Wii U maxxing presentation to fall back on - it's being judged on the merits of its gameplay alone and it's reviewing quite well despite it with universal comparisons to Galaxy. And that should say something.

I implore you, watch a 60fps stream of any given world playthrough. The game has a hell of a lot going for it and looks like the kind of game that will have a lot of mileage with a lot of people. Constant creativity with the kind of attention to level design that turns the boiled down concept of 'floating rectangle stages' on its head quite often. It's a game that practically screams fun at all times and yet you can't shake your disappointment over the fact that it shares aspects of its formula with a scaled down, less nuanced, less varied handheld aside. A formula that mind you enables things you don't often see in 3D platformers or 3D Mario even, like powerups that aren't timed one-offs that occasionally control like shit like in every other 3D Mario and have much more relevancy to the core gameplay as a result (enhancing it and introducing new traversal and survival options to the entire game instead of serving as stage gimmicks and nothing else), a better sense of situational awarement and spacial recognition relevant to a tight focused platforming experience leading to level designs that can take new risks, multiplayer gameplay, an immediate sense of familiarity to a gameplay formula that seems quite foreign to many, etc. etc.

Freezie I'm not going to act like I've been fair to when responding to you the last couple of months. Way back when 3D Land's trademark was leaked I speculated on what it was and immediately understood what it was and why Nintendo might want to experiment with that sort of Mario game. I'm one of the people who subscribes to the camp of being in love with this take on the series and wanted to see it expanded upon, and this at the very least amounts to a large expansion. So what seems boilerplate to you is damn near the Mario of my dreams, you know? Like, to me going from 3D Land to 3D World is like going from Mario 64 to Mario Galaxy. Might be refinement but it's refinement at it's best as far as I can see. And I also believe that 3D World makes a lot of business sense as well. So sometimes I get a little aggressive in my claims as a result of my personal bias to which I try to compensate for finding out as much as possible about these games via developer interviews and spoiler footage to have objective reasoning for what I believe. Anyways I'd like to apologize for my attitude and some of my nitpickings. That's what I believe about the game and at this point the only way I see this difference of opinion being resolved is when we both have our own opportunities to sample the final product as we please.

Just because it's not Mario 64 doesn't mean you get to go "well it's the same game as 3D Land besides cat" because that's patently false.

 

[Emitan]

Anticitizen One does not care about things like level design I guess?

How can some of the best levels ever made for a platformer compare to... SMW being on the SNES?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Oh right, fair enough, I guess it wasnt really all that innovative. But I just meant to say you could look at galaxy and go holy shit that must be the new mario. With 3d world its like eh. Sorry I shouldnt have used your post as a point of entry for my contribution to the discussion.

Which is fair if you're talking from a marketing standpoint, and ridiculously idiotic if you're talking from the stand point of a gamer and a consumer

 

[Neff]

Even for a Nintendo lifelong fan that list is simply just not long enough.

I'd say that's as many good games as N64 or Gamecube ended up having.

 

[Lambtron]

Yeah, I'm happy about low sales for this one. As a Nintendo fan, it's been disappointing to see them rely on so many direct sequels and remakes and straight up rehashes, especially with their main franchises that used to see innovation, ambition, and creativity.

3D World has more innovation, ambition, and creativity than pretty much anything else I've played in years.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Mario Kart would be the followup to a title that sold 35 million copies on the Wii.

Mario Kart Wii is a statistical anomaly. We have Mario Kart 7's far inferior sales numbers to back that up. Using MKW as a reference point is like expecting Wii Sports Club--a remake of the best selling game of all time--to have any kind of meaningful impact on the Wii U.

Mario Kart Wii sold well as a baseline because its Mario Kart, and appealed to everyone else because it came with a steering wheel.