Support NeoGAF

[Deleted member 17706]

Wait, then why should I think that anything you're saying has any basis in fact?

Sorry I don't have a collection of links to studies (that people probably wouldn't read anyway) on hand to share to skeptics on forums (who will undoubtedly just Google for whatever fits their beliefs and find any number of studies that reportedly support them to some degree).

 

[Zaphrynn]

No, I don't care to do so.

I'm not saying that lots of people can't survive just fine on a plant-only diet, but I don't think they are optimal for health. It may depend on the person as we are all different, but a soy and grain focused diet, which is what a vegan diet inevitably becomes, can induce a lot of health issues in many people.

You do you, though! I'll stick with my meat and protein-based diet and continue to stay strong, healthy, and sickness-free! I'll also enjoy the occasional plant food, too!

edit: also, which "major medical organizations" are you referring to, and how infallible do you believe them to be? I imagine a lot of them gave recommendations to avoid eggs out of misplaced fear of cholesterol and allowed for Honey Nut Cheerios to slap a "heart healthy" label on their box. The catastrophic low-fat diet crazed was fueled by recommendations from prestigious medical organizations.

Lmfao. "I'm too lazy to back up my claims, but I want you to do the work and back up yours".

 

[krang]

It's just mind-boggling to read such statements in a left/progressive-leaning platform like GAF. So not sitting through morally repugnant and physically disgusting actions is childish?

I can imagine the meltdown if the thread title was "So a SJW just left the dinner table to sit outside", because the host engaged in racist / sexist behavior. The tone of this thread would be very different. But I assume that since eating a dead being is "delicious" and feels good in your tummy, it's OK to do so? It's the very same mindset which is being fought tooth and nail in civil rights movements around the world. And it seems that even progressive-leaning people engage in such acts nonetheless and blame the ones who realize the abysmal situation for their bad conscience.

For vegans, seeing your best friends or even your family consuming that flesh is sickening from a very deep level. It takes a lot of effort not to speak up after you went down the conscious path. And even if you're a "cool" vegan who doesn't want to be a burden to anyone, you still get no results from it. Instead, people tell you the 100th time that they only buy meat once a week or once a month and only from happily slaughtered animals. Or even dare questioning your own moral choice. Looking at most of the answers here in the thread which vilify the oppressed, I might need to change my attitude, too, and speak up occasionally.

I can relate to those who left, because I can imagine how that cod was being presented to everyone. Probably the grey, dead glare of the once healthy fish turned them off.

But in order to make the next gathering better, it might be a good idea to ask beforehand if and when they are going to participate if meat or fish is being eaten. Maybe just separate the dishes so that the meat one is finished before they arrive. Or even go veggie / vegan next time for that occasion only, because why not?

Posts like this, especially the bolded bit, are a great reminder that in fact, yes, it is possible to swing too far to the left.

 

[Mimir]

No, I don't care to do so.

I'm not saying that lots of people can't survive just fine on a plant-only diet, but I don't think they are optimal for health. It may depend on the person as we are all different, but a soy and grain focused diet, which is what a vegan diet inevitably becomes, can induce a lot of health issues in many people.

You do you, though! I'll stick with my meat and protein-based diet and continue to stay strong, healthy, and sickness-free! I'll also enjoy the occasional plant food, too!

edit: also, which "major medical organizations" are you referring to, and how infallible do you believe them to be? I imagine a lot of them gave recommendations to avoid eggs out of misplaced fear of cholesterol and allowed for Honey Nut Cheerios to slap a "heart healthy" label on their box.

These aren't necessarily saying a vegan diet is better, just that you can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet.

Dietitians of Canada
A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.
American Dietetic Association
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
The British National Health Service
With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.
The British Nutrition Foundation
A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.
The Dietitians Association of Australia
Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.
The United States Department of Agriculture
Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.
The National Health and Medical Research Council
Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.
The Mayo Clinic
A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.
The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada
Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.
Harvard Medical School
Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Lmfao. "I'm too lazy to back up my claims, but I want you to do the work and back up yours".

That's not how it works. I didn't begin my post with an appeal to authority by saying, "studies show..." or something similar.

The poster I quoted wrote "major medical organizations," so obviously they had some very specific ones in mind, no?

These aren't necessarily saying a vegan diet is better, just that you can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet.

I would never disagree with that. There are enough healthy vegans out there to show that it's true. I would, however, disagree with a statement that says "anyone can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet," recommending it for the entire population. There are enough people who have encountered intolerance issues with a largely soy and grain based diet to show that isn't true.

 

[Surfinn]

I would disagree with this statement if the goal is to thrive and be healthy.

You.. Believe people need meat to "thrive and be healthy"?

 

[V1ctIm]

My wife and I are vegan and we have lots of meals with my family where they all eat meat and cheese and such. We are very happy to be vegan and wish everyone were, but we also understand that people have to come to their own conclusions about how to live their life. It helps that my family is very conscientious about making sure there are vegan options and my parents at least have started integrating more vegan recipes into their mix. You really just have to be more understanding if you want to avoid situations like in the OP. Sad, but some people just aren't that understanding.

 

[Disxo]

You.. Believe you need meat to "thrive and be healthy"?

Gains=Chicken Breast

 

[Bacon]

That's not how it works. I didn't begin my post with an appeal to authority by saying, "studies show..." or something similar.

The poster I quoted wrote "major medical organizations," so obviously they had some very specific ones in mind, no?

You said that a human needs meat to "thrive and be healthy". Sounds like you just pulled that out of your ass if you have no research to back it up.

 

[Surfinn]

Gains=Chicken Breast

What

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You.. Believe people need meat to "thrive and be healthy"?

For "optimal health" and to really reach your genetic potential, yes.

Not that most people are even aiming for that, though. A vegan diet is perfectly fine for many people who just want to get by and reduce their personal impact on the environment.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Here's a question for vegans. If eating meat is murder, then in a vegans ideal world, in which nobody eats meat, is the plan to kill off the entire cow/chicken/pig industrial complex? These animals are bred specifically for this purpose, and there existence in such large quantities is what is accounting for the climate problems they present, so the solution is naturally to kill them off.

I do not believe that eating or killing animals is murder, because murder itself is a human construct, but if that is what vegans believe, then their utopia is also their nightmare, because it would consist of committing genocide on entire breeds of animals that have been created specifically for consumption, in the name of environment protection. That seems like quite the moral quandary.

There's also the moral quandary of dealing with non-native and invasive species. Do we try to solve the problems we've created by exterminating invasive species? If so, where is the line?

I've asked this before in similar threads and have been largely ignored. I think most folks are just fine with livestock species going extinct as long as it happens "naturally" without human intervention (because, apparently, we aren't part of nature).

 

[Surfinn]

For "optimal health" and to really reach your genetic potential, yes.

Not that most people are even aiming for that, though. A vegan diet is perfectly fine for many people who just want to get by and reduce their personal impact on the environment.

And why do you believe this? Where did you hear/see it?

I'd like to see studies that show "vegetarians reach a lower genetic potential", whatever that means

But considering you're not providing any sources..

 

[Contica]

Here's a question for vegans. If eating meat is murder, then in a vegans ideal world, in which nobody eats meat, is the plan to kill off the entire cow/chicken/pig industrial complex? These animals are bred specifically for this purpose, and there existence in such large quantities is what is accounting for the climate problems they present, so the solution is naturally to kill them off.

I do not believe that eating or killing animals is murder, because murder itself is a human construct, but if that is what vegans believe, then their utopia is also their nightmare, because it would consist of committing genocide on entire breeds of animals that have been created specifically for consumption, in the name of environment protection. That seems like quite the moral quandary.

There's also the moral quandary of dealing with non-native and invasive species. Do we try to solve the problems we've created by exterminating invasive species? If so, where is the line?

I know there are some ALF type folks will go and release caged minks and such into the wild because they oppose the captivity, thus unleashing environmental havok on an ecosystem.

Most vegans are not that stupid.

I have never met anyone who even entertains the idea that we can shut down factory farms in a day. It's about doing it long term. Millions of animals are bred for slaughter daily, if you breed less, there will be less to slaughter, and eventually you can phase it out.

That's the dream at least, but I have no illusions that's gonna happen any time soon.

 

[Mimir]

I would never disagree with that. There are enough healthy vegans out there to show that it's true. I would, however, disagree with a statement that says "anyone can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet," recommending it for the entire population. There are enough people who have encountered intolerance issues with a largely soy and grain based diet to show that isn't true.

You don't need soy or grains on a vegan diet. I know several soy-free, and gluten-free vegans that are doing well.

And the many top-level vegan athletes that have credited their success to switching to a plant-based diet prove you can thrive as a vegan.

 

[DR2K]

Remind him the plate he's eating on has hosted many dead animals.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You don't need soy or grains on a vegan diet. I know several soy-free, and gluten-free vegans that are doing well.

And the many top-level vegan athletes that have credited their success to switching to a plant-based diet prove you can thrive as a vegan.

Like Carl Lewis? Famous for his incredible performance and success up through a year into switching to a vegan diet only for that to his peak and and his dominance to fade the next year and beyond.

 

[frontovik]

Dramatic breach of etiquette .. just don't invite him for dinner again next time.

 

[Turnip Truck]

LOL. this reminds me of my brother and his (now ex) wife. Back in the day they were very outspoken, preachy vegans. I was never sure of the exact reason why, I think it was mostly because his wife tended to follow whatever hot trend caught her eye at the moment. Once she jumped into one of her cultish, holistic food culture trends, she was always right and the rest of us were wrong. She insisted on bringing their own "tofurkey" and other vegan items to the family gathering at Thanksgiving.

A couple of years after they flipped and became rabid meat eaters again. Then they jumped on the Paleo bandwagon. Never saw anyone eat so much meat in my life.

 

[crisdecuba]

Sorry I don't have a collection of links to studies (that people probably wouldn't read anyway) on hand to share to skeptics on forums (who will undoubtedly just Google for whatever fits their beliefs and find any number of studies that reportedly support them to some degree).

Why even go through the trouble of sharing your opinion, then? Edit: And then why even ask the other guy clarify *their* source?

And for what it's worth, I'm a meat eater and I was interested in your claim re: whether vegan diets can be as optimal as meat-based diets. So I ask as a curious person whether you're actually basing this on anything.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I don't understand vegans or vegetarians really. Trying to deny and subvert human biology... we are the top of the food chain, millions of years of evolution have led to this point. Just reeks of playing god, or at the very least, being sanctimonious. Eat or be eaten, that's what I say.

*facepalm*

Your ignorance is seriously embarrassing, even worse than the OP's brother-in-law.

 

[Surfinn]

Like Carl Lewis? Famous for his incredible performance and success up through a year into switching to a vegan diet only for that to his peak and and his dominance to fade the next year and beyond.

And we have proof this lack of performance was due to veganism?

But even so, surely one cherry picked example is clearly enough to rest the case, even though countless other successful athletes are vegans.

Is this what you envision as a source?

It sounds like you just have some ignorant bias against non meat eaters for whatever reason and are completely unwilling to back it with credibility

 

[outunderthestars]

Wow. So many people getting mad for what someone else chooses to eat.

I eat vegan but couldn't possibly care less what anyone else eats.

 

[Llyranor]

For "optimal health" and to really reach your genetic potential, yes.

If we consider the genetic component of cancer, and the multiple studies showing an increased risk of various cancers from eating meat, then yes eating meat helps you reach your genetic potential.

 

[SomTervo]

But I really like eating meat.

So do I.

But sometimes you gotta take the L.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Gains=Chicken Breast

lol, yup

and whey

 

[Agent Gibbs]

So, update:

I discussed with the rest of my family, and we aren't going to avoid eating meat or fish for the rest of the week. We'll just let them eat at another table if they want to (and possibly laugh at them when they're out earshot). And I'll refrain from making comments about it.

It's a bit of a shame, because we usually have a tradition of going to a really nice restaurant all together, but I guess we'll go without them. Their loss.

Well of course we'll let him sit at our table if he wants to, but if he wants to go outside, I promised my parents not to make any comments about it.

milking is rape

My sister and brother-in-law have said literally just that :/

Thanks for the update OP, interesting to note that he can eat in the same building as meat, but it feeds into the point i made that it was more of a statement when he left the house on you, its like he was drawing a line in the sand publicly so everyone knew where he (and your sister) stood
Which just confirms he was being rude


Out of interest is he the confidant type or ( i don't want to presume too much an be insulting but) be arrogant in his beliefs? I'm assuming that given the actions, so It would be interesting to know how the vacation goes and if he pulls such a stunt in a public restaurant, because if he can act so childishly in private with family all of a sudden, he could do the same in public.

 

[Hypron]

lol, yup

and whey

There are plant based protein powders with the same amount of protein & amino acids as whey, you can easily be vegan and make gains...

 

[FLUXCapacitor]

I would never disagree with that. There are enough healthy vegans out there to show that it's true. I would, however, disagree with a statement that says "anyone can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet," recommending it for the entire population. There are enough people who have encountered intolerance issues with a largely soy and grain based diet to show that isn't true.

This is just silly. My girlfriend has more intolerance issues than most anyone else I know. She can't eat soy, gluten, corn, spinach, or egg. And other types of foods she doesn't do well with depending on how they are prepared. She is also chemically intolerant and doesn't do well around a lot of household chemicals, perfumes, etc.

She is vegan. She is thriving, and very healthy.

 

[Jenov]

It's just mind-boggling to read such statements in a left/progressive-leaning platform like GAF. So not sitting through morally repugnant and physically disgusting actions is childish?

I can imagine the meltdown if the thread title was "So a SJW just left the dinner table to sit outside", because the host engaged in racist / sexist behavior. The tone of this thread would be very different. But I assume that since eating a dead being is "delicious" and feels good in your tummy, it's OK to do so? It's the very same mindset which is being fought tooth and nail in civil rights movements around the world. And it seems that even progressive-leaning people engage in such acts nonetheless and blame the ones who realize the abysmal situation for their bad conscience.

For vegans, seeing your best friends or even your family consuming that flesh is sickening from a very deep level. It takes a lot of effort not to speak up after you went down the conscious path. And even if you're a "cool" vegan who doesn't want to be a burden to anyone, you still get no results from it. Instead, people tell you the 100th time that they only buy meat once a week or once a month and only from happily slaughtered animals. Or even dare questioning your own moral choice. Looking at most of the answers here in the thread which vilify the oppressed, I might need to change my attitude, too, and speak up occasionally.

I can relate to those who left, because I can imagine how that cod was being presented to everyone. Probably the grey, dead glare of the once healthy fish turned them off.

But in order to make the next gathering better, it might be a good idea to ask beforehand if and when they are going to participate if meat or fish is being eaten. Maybe just separate the dishes so that the meat one is finished before they arrive. Or even go veggie / vegan next time for that occasion only, because why not?

Between the hyperbole here and the milking = rape thing. My goodness, really? Having a food preference is not the same as racism/sexism. Talk about being out of touch and having the wrong tone...

 

[FLUXCapacitor]

Can Vegans Be Top Athletes?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

lol, yup

and whey

No one said veganism is easier, but it's definitely possible to make gains on a vegan diet.

Can Vegans Be Top Athletes?

Good and informative video.

 

[Surfinn]

There are plant based protein powders with the same amount of protein & amino acids as whey, you can easily be vegan and make gains...

But how will I be manly without whey and chicken?

 

[DrROBschiz]

A little off topic but what is a Vegans stance on lab grown meat?

I feel like we may live to see that become a thing

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Gains=Chicken Breast

Grass fed beef bruh

 

[Gravy Boat]

A little off topic but what is a Vegans stance on lab grown meat?

I feel like we may live to see that become a thing

I can't really see any rational argument against it. Although I'm not a vegan.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

There are plant based protein powders with the same amount of protein & amino acids as whey, you can easily be vegan and make gains...

I actually don't eat whey myself, because I don't like the idea of using supplements, but I do eat a great deal of dairy products. Cottage cheese is great as post-gym snack in my experience

But sometimes I go fully plant based with peanut butter and banana on crisp bread, which is delicious

 

[Hypron]

Grass fed beef bruh

Become vegan and become the grass fed beef yourself

 

[DrROBschiz]

why dont vegans eat unfetilized eggs by free range chickens?

seems like a wasted opportunity for one of the most nutritious foods available

 

[Surfinn]

I actually don't eat whey myself, because I don't like the idea of using supplements, but I do eat a great deal of dairy products. Cottage cheese is great as post-gym snack in my experience

But sometimes I go fully plant based with peanut butter and banana on crisp bread, which is delicious

Banana and PB on TOASTED bread is a godsend. Now you just need some cinnamon sprinkled on top. Though I learned the hard way that a lot of breads have egg/milk in them

Also if you wanna go all out, throw some of your favorite berries in there too

 

[captive]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=h...9j69i57j0l4.7540j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I'm aware there's other numbers you can find too. The numbers change depending on farming practises and such. It's irrelevant. A big animal like a cow would logically consume enough water each day to keep a person alive each day. Each day we keep cows alive with water, we signify our disinterest in keeping people alive with water


The land could be used to build homes, catch rain, build infrastructure or do a variety of useful things. Smart investments will pay off. The cost of transporting the saved resources will also pay off. Yeah, it takes some effort to get water to people who need it. So what. People need water, if we don't get people the water they need then we're no better than the statesmen in Flint Michigan


Ah right my bad, dunno enough about fishing to comment intelligently then, doubt we waste water on them though. But the problem with farming isn't just about wasting water but also food. If we farm fish and give them food that people could eat then that is also an inefficient use of resources. Chickens consume much less food and water than cows but farming them is still an inefficient way to use resources

you understand the vast majority of ranches are like in the middle of fucking nowhere right?

 

[inki]

I'd wave and say "BYE"

 

[krang]

why dont vegans eat unfetilized eggs by free range chickens?

seems like a wasted opportunity for one of the most nutritious foods available

Yeah. I can understand not eating eggs from poorly-kept poultry, but would vegans see any harm in eating eggs from chickens you were raising well in your own back yard?

 

[Sunster]

Grass fed beef bruh

more like grass fed heart disease if that's your primary source for gains.

Yeah. I can understand not eating eggs from poorly-kept poultry, but would vegans see any harm in eating eggs from chickens you were raising well in your own back yard?

vegans unlike vegetarians, do not consume anything that animals produced. not under ANY circumstances.

 

[LosDaddie]

I would laugh at the vegan dipshit and tell my sister that they aren't welcome back until they learn how to act like grown adults.

 

[Mimir]

why dont vegans eat unfetilized eggs by free range chickens?

seems like a wasted opportunity for one of the most nutritious foods available

The "free-range" and "humane" labels don't mean much in the US. They are treated like commodities, and companies will cut every corner they can, at the cost of the welfare for the animals.

Additionally, the egg industry kills hundreds of millions of chicks annually. All companies do this, whether they are "free-range", "organic", or "humane". Definitely not something I want to support, especially when I have access to much better foods.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I hope he brought his own pristine dinner plate with him to your parents too. Their plates have been the resting place of many dead animals I would imagine

 

[krang]

I would laugh at the vegan dipshit and tell my sister that they aren't welcome back until they learn how to act like a grown adults.

Also this.

 

[DorkyMohr]

I can't stand the smell of fish so I can kinda relate.

 

[BlackGoku03]

The "free-range" and "humane" labels don't mean much in the US. They are treated like commodities, and companies will cut every corner they can, at the cost of the welfare for the animals.

Additionally, the egg industry kills hundreds of millions of chicks annually. All companies do this, whether they are "free-range", "organic", or "humane". Definitely not something I want to support, especially when I have access to much better foods.

So what's wrong with having your own chicken coop?

Homegrown eggs taste waaaay better than the ones at the store.