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So what's the best game in the Ghost 'N Goblins series?

The original arcade version of Ghosts 'n' Goblins was the catalyst to the downfall of Todd Landers.

WhlN4pR.jpg


What a flamin' galah you were.

Yesssssssssssssssss

I have wondered for years if I just imagined that whole thing. Thank you for confirming my memory!
 
Ghouls 'N Ghosts. Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts is gorgeous for sure but I much prefer being able to attack vertically (Ghouls) over double jumping (Super).

Oh and Arcade > PC Engine > Genesis >>>>>>>>> SMS.

Though for nostalgia purposes, the original arcade game is just lovely. The sound effects especially.
 

Sapiens

Member
Well seeing as the PC-Engine port is ineffect on a 8 Bit system and looks closer to the Arcade game then id say the MD version was a bit of a disappointment....still a great game though!!

Eh, to be accurate, that's not the bog standard PC Engine hardware when it's actually the Super Grafx, a rare and expensive platform virtually no one has owned or played (outside of emulation), and arguably the biggest console failure of all time. It also has to be said that the MD/Genny cartridge is also half the size of the SG HuCard which would account for why the SG version was so much closer to the arcade game.

Thanks for clearing up the nonsense, Mighty - on top of that, the SuperGrafx port released a whole year later.
 

zmet

Member
Ghouls n' Ghosts is my favorite in the series. Super Ghouls n' Ghosts plays too slow for me (that water level seems to go on forever, and you have to play through it two times!) and the new weapons aren't that great (with the exception of the crossbow). I still like the game but I really need to be in the right mood to play it to completion.
 

GenG3000

Member
I have been replaying this series and I can't feel it anymore.

The aesthetics, the monster design, the soundtrack and different setpieces are amazing, but I cannot enjoy these games with the busted enemy rate, broken weapons, unfair traps and the two hit systems. I couldn't get past level 2 in Ghouls after 2 hours: the skulls bouncing downhill in totally random patterns, the bridges with trap floors you can't see, the fire bats coming from awkward angles, etc. Simply not fun and not rewarding at all. I want to like them, but I can't.

I'd kill for an easy version of these games with three hits or even a health bar. They are badly designed in terms of challenge, quarter munchers. I think I may like Ultimate GnG (the International version, not Kai) in that regard.
 
I have been replaying this series and I can't feel it anymore.

The aesthetics, the monster design, the soundtrack and different setpieces are amazing, but I cannot enjoy these games with the busted enemy rate, broken weapons, unfair traps and the two hit systems. I couldn't get past level 2 in Ghouls after 2 hours: the skulls bouncing downhill in totally random patterns, the bridges with trap floors you can't see, the fire bats coming from awkward angles, etc. Simply not fun and not rewarding at all. I want to like them, but I can't.

I'd kill for an easy version of these games with three hits or even a health bar. They are badly designed in terms of challenge, quarter munchers. I think I may like Ultimate GnG (the International version, not Kai) in that regard.

This is wrong. They are excellently designed games - entirely fair. You cannot end up in an unwinnable situation; you just need to carefully consider your movement and offensive options.

The bouncing turtle shells are consistently avoidable as long as you play defensively. The traps on the bridges can't kill you as long as you don't drop straight down into the antlions (and they are clearly visible, so in the instances where a trap is placed directly above the antlions, you can just jump over it). The bats (one of the most intense and enjoyable segments in the game) are always killable with well-placed shots.

The only thing I'll concede is that yes, most of the weapons in the games are basically penalty items. Not something I'm a huge fan of - but stick to the lance, dagger, and special weapon in each game and you'll always be fine.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Super Ghouls n Ghosts. The one game in the series I never beat. Fuck you, Super G&G.

Leaving my bitterness aside, it's real close to the best in the series but it's not paced well enough/is too long and suffers from slowdown.

Ghouls n Ghosts Genesis wins. Perfect pacing, no slowdown, and better controls.
 

orborborb

Member
1. Ghouls 'n' Ghosts
2. Maximo: Ghosts to Glory
3. Super Ghosts 'n' Goblins
4. Maximo vs. Army of Zin
5. Ultimate Ghosts 'n' Goblins

The original Ghosts 'n' Goblins is fun but bettered in every way by the sequels. The Gargoyles Quest and Demon's Crest games are dull.
 

GenG3000

Member
This is wrong. They are excellently designed games - entirely fair. You cannot end up in an unwinnable situation; you just need to carefully consider your movement and offensive options.

The bouncing turtle shells are consistently avoidable as long as you play defensively. The traps on the bridges can't kill you as long as you don't drop straight down into the antlions (and they are clearly visible, so in the instances where a trap is placed directly above the antlions, you can just jump over it). The bats (one of the most intense and enjoyable segments in the game) are always killable with well-placed shots.

The only thing I'll concede is that yes, most of the weapons in the games are basically penalty items. Not something I'm a huge fan of - but stick to the lance, dagger, and special weapon in each game and you'll always be fine.

They are fun games in a masochistic way because you always want to go back to that hell once you have cooled down a bit, but the spawn rate or the traps you cannot evade unless you step into them is totally unfair and dated game design that is obviously part of their arcade spirit. Arcade games are the f2p of gaming, designed in a way that you had to spent the game's retail price in coins in order to actually beat them, or short games that last a lot by forcing repetition on the player. I'm quite aware of these practices.

There is no way you can beat those areas the first time you reach them. There is no room for anticipation, but memorization (and some areas feature random enemy spawn, which you cannot memorize), which isn't good design in my book. Of course, you may be able to beat these areas the 20th time you step into them, which is what the arcade business is about. I just wish I could enjoy the superior arcade visuals without the arcade unfair practices staining the experience, but with the ease of a home console version, because I really like the gameplay and the setting of these games but I do not have the material time to spend trying to figure the pattern of these bouncing skulls for the 100th time or trying to beat the fire bat section with an ax I got by accident. I am playing Ghouls in the Saturn version of Capcom Generations 2, which has unlimited continues but if you pick a bad weapon for the area you are in, you are stuck anyway, no matter how continues you may have. I always expect unlockable cheats for these home compilations, but in this case I might be forced to switch to MAME.

Good design for a hard 2D platformer would be Mega Man or Donkey Kong Country. These games are hard but the levels are minutes short so you can power play through them (even if they have unfair traps) and then stop for a rest, but power playing an 1 hour long game with unfair spawn rates and obstacles is nuts and totally out of my league.
 

Vitten

Member
The SNES version was amazing: superb music, colourful and crisp graphics and pretty challenging but without being ludicrous.

The NES version however just plain sucks. Awful port that was WAY too hard to be even remotely enjoyable.
 
They are fun games in a masochistic way because you always want to go back to that hell once you have cooled down a bit, but the spawn rate or the traps you cannot evade unless you step into them is totally unfair and dated game design that is obviously part of their arcade spirit. Arcade games are the f2p of gaming, designed in a way that you had to spent the game's retail price in coins in order to actually beat them, or short games that last a lot by forcing repetition on the player. I'm quite aware of these practices.

There is no way you can beat those areas the first time you reach them. There is no room for anticipation, but memorization (and some areas feature random enemy spawn, which you cannot memorize), which isn't good design in my book. Of course, you may be able to beat these areas the 20th time you step into them, which is what the arcade business is about. I just wish I could enjoy the superior arcade visuals without the arcade unfair practices staining the experience, but with the ease of a home console version, because I really like the gameplay and the setting of these games but I do not have the material time to spend trying to figure the pattern of these bouncing skulls for the 100th time or trying to beat the fire bat section with an ax I got by accident. I am playing Ghouls in the Saturn version of Capcom Generations 2, which has unlimited continues but if you pick a bad weapon for the area you are in, you are stuck anyway, no matter how continues you may have. I always expect unlockable cheats for these home compilations, but in this case I might be forced to switch to MAME.

Good design for a hard 2D platformer would be Mega Man or Donkey Kong Country. These games are hard but the levels are minutes short so you can power play through them (even if they have unfair traps) and then stop for a rest, but power playing an 1 hour long game with unfair spawn rates and obstacles is nuts and totally out of my league.

There's nothing "dated" about that kind of design. If you don't enjoy challenging games, that's fine - but that's on you; it's kind of short-sighted to blame the game and write it off as unfair. The segments you're talking about aren't extraordinarily harsh, either - it's not as though those enemies (the turtles and fire bats) have sprites misrepresentative of their hitboxes, move in unreadable ways or at unreactable speeds, or anything like that. They appear on screen and move towards you in a predictable way. Now, is that segment pretty hard? Yeeah - and most people probably won't beat it on their first try. But that's to be expected of any reasonably difficult portion in a game. Most people probably won't beat Champion's Road in Super Mario 3D World, the final boss of Vanquish, the extreme version of Quiet in MGSV, etc. in one try, but that doesn't keep all of those from being perfectly fair challenges. Ghouls 'n Ghosts is the same - it's difficult, but extremely fair.

Arcade games aren't very comparable to F2P games. Yes, arcade games are made to be difficult - but that doesn't mean they are necessarily made to be unfair and leech money from you. Otherwise skilled players wouldn't be able to beat arcade games on one credit. It's completely reasonable that a very skilled player could pick up an arcade game of low-to-moderate difficulty for the first time and clear it with one credit, in one sitting - something you won't find in F2P games.
 

eso76

Member
I couldn't get past level 2 in Ghouls after 2 hours: the skulls bouncing downhill in totally random patterns, the bridges with trap floors you can't see, the fire bats coming from awkward angles, etc. Simply not fun and not rewarding at all.

I'll concede the bolded, but nothing else is random or unfair. Ghouls is actually very manageable if you observe, learn and practice. Things we have forgotten about.


Also, gng means pixel art and Capcom's typical rounded aesthetics, which automatically disqualifies the 2.5D PSP version and the rather ugly Maximo games.
 

Lettuce

Member
Are the Maximo games highly regarded then, i own them but never have played them!. Might have to try them on ther PS2 emulator
 

FireCloud

Member
I've only ever played the arcade GnG, SGnG, and UGnG. Of those SGnG is probably my favorite. I never had enough quarters to make it far enough into the arcade version to know for sure though.

UGnG on the PSP is a sight to behold but it is too damn hard. It is also the only one that I play regularly due to it being Vita compatible.
 
So many amazing games in this series. I played the MD version of Ghouls'n Ghosts until I knew it by heart and could finish both runs on one credit. Super is graphically incredible but I missed being able to shoot up and down, which also made for some interesting bosses in Ghouls like the giant grub. It's also less creepy than Ghouls IMHO.

The Firebrand games are very different beasts. Gargoyle's Quest is my favorite Gameboy game by a huge margin, and Demon's Crest is an incredible game on its own (although many won't realize it due to its early ending shenanigans).
 

GenG3000

Member
There's nothing "dated" about that kind of design. If you don't enjoy challenging games, that's fine - but that's on you; it's kind of short-sighted to blame the game and write it off as unfair. The segments you're talking about aren't extraordinarily harsh, either - it's not as though those enemies (the turtles and fire bats) have sprites misrepresentative of their hitboxes, move in unreadable ways or at unreactable speeds, or anything like that. They appear on screen and move towards you in a predictable way. Now, is that segment pretty hard? Yeeah - and most people probably won't beat it on their first try. But that's to be expected of any reasonably difficult portion in a game. Most people probably won't beat Champion's Road in Super Mario 3D World, the final boss of Vanquish, the extreme version of Quiet in MGSV, etc. in one try, but that doesn't keep all of those from being perfectly fair challenges. Ghouls 'n Ghosts is the same - it's difficult, but extremely fair.

Arcade games aren't very comparable to F2P games. Yes, arcade games are made to be difficult - but that doesn't mean they are necessarily made to be unfair and leech money from you. Otherwise skilled players wouldn't be able to beat arcade games on one credit. It's completely reasonable that a very skilled player could pick up an arcade game of low-to-moderate difficulty for the first time and clear it with one credit, in one sitting - something you won't find in F2P games.

I enjoy challenging games, but as long as the challenge feels justified and measured. As I mentioned before, Mega Man, Donkey Kong Country and others are among my favourite games, but the challenge there comes in short bursts and increases gradually. In Ghouls it feels like it throws you into a new section with specific mechanics without letting you test the waters, and two hits does not offer enough room for experimentation. Asking you to play each level as a professional player is not adequate nor desirable - it should be an option, not a requisite. That is why this game is unfair. And if a skilled player is able to beat it in with a single credit is not a merit of the game, but of the player and its dedication.

Since my last reply I got the boss of level 5 (the giant moth, I presume), which killed me and had to stop playing out of fatigue. The game is really good, and in the end is a matter of keep pushing through the levels until you memorize the location of each chest and each spawn. I think I would have enjoyed it more just with a third checkpoint before each boss. The 4th boss was brutal to an extent that I had completely memorized the layout of the waterfall section, where all secret chests were, if they contained a wizard/gold armor, a weapon or a replacement armor, the optimal approach to each spam and even a shortcut at the falling flower platforms. My gripe is that even if I had proven that I had mastered the level, the game asked me to repeat it once and again. That is why I think there should have been a checkpoint before each boss.

As an arcade game it asks you for money in exchange of a new chance to try again your luck against those traps. It's a carrot on a stick, and that is why many of these games' shady design are closer to a f2p game. The player that got to beat it in one sitting probably have spent the game's estimate retail price in small change and even more. This game is not something you can beat your first time unless you are a gaming god of sorts.

I'll concede the bolded, but nothing else is random or unfair. Ghouls is actually very manageable if you observe, learn and practice. Things we have forgotten about.

This is not a black or white thing. The problem here is that the game sometimes asks too much observation, learning and practice from the player, and it could be more lenient about it. The game starts strong and ends even stronger, to the point that I can see players never beating this without cheats or assisted tools. That is unnaceptable. Difficulty should be a tool to create intensity and engagement, not discouragement. Everybody should be able to play this game from the beginning to the end, experiencing those setpieces.

Hell, I've been playing in easy. I cannot imagine what expert is like.
 
This should really be between just Ghosts 'N Goblins, Ghouls 'N Ghosts, Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts, Ultimate Ghosts 'N Goblins/Gokumakaimura Kai, & Ghosts 'N Goblins: Gold Knights 1 & 2, as they're the only 6 Ghosts games that are really related to each other while the rest are ports & spin-offs, IMO.

On subject, it just happens to be between Ghouls 'N Ghosts & Ultimate Ghosts 'N Goblins/Gokumakaimura Kai. Rest are OK, but could never match up to those two.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
So many amazing games in this series. I played the MD version of Ghouls'n Ghosts until I knew it by heart and could finish both runs on one credit. Super is graphically incredible but I missed being able to shoot up and down, which also made for some interesting bosses in Ghouls like the giant grub. It's also less creepy than Ghouls IMHO.

The Firebrand games are very different beasts. Gargoyle's Quest is my favorite Gameboy game by a huge margin, and Demon's Crest is an incredible game on its own (although many won't realize it due to its early ending shenanigans).

Super also suffers from slowdown and has a crappier looking end boss, by far.
 
Also, gng means pixel art and Capcom's typical rounded aesthetics, which automatically disqualifies the 2.5D PSP version and the rather ugly Maximo games.

I wouldn't. It's comparable to the first two GnG games and definitely better than Super.

I enjoy challenging games, but as long as the challenge feels justified and measured. As I mentioned before, Mega Man, Donkey Kong Country and others are among my favourite games, but the challenge there comes in short bursts and increases gradually. In Ghouls it feels like it throws you into a new section with specific mechanics without letting you test the waters, and two hits does not offer enough room for experimentation. Asking you to play each level as a professional player is not adequate nor desirable - it should be an option, not a requisite. That is why this game is unfair. And if a skilled player is able to beat it in with a single credit is not a merit of the game, but of the player and its dedication.

Since my last reply I got the boss of level 5 (the giant moth, I presume), which killed me and had to stop playing out of fatigue. The game is really good, and in the end is a matter of keep pushing through the levels until you memorize the location of each chest and each spawn. I think I would have enjoyed it more just with a third checkpoint before each boss. The 4th boss was brutal to an extent that I had completely memorized the layout of the waterfall section, where all secret chests were, if they contained a wizard/gold armor, a weapon or a replacement armor, the optimal approach to each spam and even a shortcut at the falling flower platforms. My gripe is that even if I had proven that I had mastered the level, the game asked me to repeat it once and again. That is why I think there should have been a checkpoint before each boss.

As an arcade game it asks you for money in exchange of a new chance to try again your luck against those traps. It's a carrot on a stick, and that is why many of these games' shady design are closer to a f2p game. The player that got to beat it in one sitting probably have spent the game's estimate retail price in small change and even more. This game is not something you can beat your first time unless you are a gaming god of sorts.



This is not a black or white thing. The problem here is that the game sometimes asks too much observation, learning and practice from the player, and it could be more lenient about it. The game starts strong and ends even stronger, to the point that I can see players never beating this without cheats or assisted tools. That is unnaceptable. Difficulty should be a tool to create intensity and engagement, not discouragement. Everybody should be able to play this game from the beginning to the end, experiencing those setpieces.

Hell, I've been playing in easy. I cannot imagine what expert is like.

Again, there's nothing unfair about what you're describing. Ghouls 'n Ghosts is a difficult game, and the Mega Man and Donkey Kong Country games are on the easier side (especially the DKC games). GnG being of a higher difficulty level than you are used to does not make it unfair or unreasonable. I'm not arguing that most people could walk up to a Ghouls 'n Ghosts arcade cabinet and beat it in just a few credits, or that they wouldn't have to pay a fair amount of money in order to get skilled enough to beat it on one credit - but there's nothing wrong with that, because it's a difficult game.

Games like GnG are great at using difficulty to create engagement. That's why the game is so good - it, like a lot of great arcade games, provides a high level of intensity and demands a lot from the player. To tone down the game and make it so it could be finished by all players, regardless of skill level (which is a little ridiculous - not every game needs to be finishable by everyone) would damage its appeal.

Also, there are no checkpoints before the bosses because each stage's second half and boss are meant to be a continuous challenge. If you can make it through a level perfectly but then fail to beat a boss because you haven't learned how to fight that boss - then you haven't mastered the stage yet and haven't earned the right to pass it.
 
Are the Maximo games highly regarded then, i own them but never have played them!. Might have to try them on ther PS2 emulator
I gather most folks prefer the original Maximo to the Army of Zin sequel but maybe others will chime in on that topic. I owned the original but only played it for a few hours. It didn't really connect with me.

I will always have a soft spot for the original Ghosts on the NES, despite the shortcomings. I own the Genesis version of Ghouls but haven't played it much. Thread reminds me I need to address that.
 

GenG3000

Member

Above all, thank you for taking the time to answer me.

The second segment and the boss being part of the same challenge? Why not to make the whole stage part of the same challenge? It would be more difficult and challenging that way. Where do we draw the line?

People of all skill levels should be able to beat a game, and not only arcade enthusiasts that lived there. Arcades are a business, and if somebody found this (or any other) game too difficult, there's a risk that he would walk out of frustration and never play this game again, which is a loss of income for the company. A game can be difficult but manageable, offering different approaches to a single problem and not asking for a super play for every move.

Games back at that time were difficult for many reasons, many of which have been disclosed in recent interviews. Arcade games were to make more money out of you, not for intensity or anything like that. Console games were also difficult because they had short development cycles and they had to be made that way to prevent children with lots of free time to master them and beat them quickly. Those kids are now parents and have limited time to spend on games, and they should be able to play, have fun and beat those games, and not spend all their free time trying to beat that boss for the 100th time. Sometimes they didn't have feedback from players outside the development cycle, but from the game testers and developers, and they made it even more difficult! This is the story of Ninja Gaiden if I remember correctly.

Then again, modern gaming concedes this point. I'm playing Ultimate GnG right now and it is exactly what I thought it would be. You have multiple hits, respawns, several items and savestates, because that is what people demands right now. Difficulty in this series doesn't only come out as part of the artistic vision or design, but of necessity, because they are actually short games when you know what to do. From 1993 to 2006 the gaming landscape had completely changed. I concede that difficulty is part of the series' signature, but how much difficulty is needed?

One of my favourite arcade games is Radiant Silvergun. If you play it like a normal shmup it is more or less easy, but if you want to get a high score, you need to kill enemies in patterns and leave many untouched, which fills the screen with bullets thus making it harder. It is clever design and has something for everyone. It is a 1998 game and it shows the arcade school of gaming was changing to something more democratic.
 

eso76

Member
I wouldn't. It's comparable to the first two GnG games and definitely better than Super.

I know it is, everything considered it is the better game, the more accomplished and fleshed out one of the series.

But it just loses its charm without the pixel art and rounded aesthetics which are a huge part of why I loved gng games in first place. I would even say its charisma, not gameplay, is what set those games apart, and UGnG early 2.5D graphics were a tad too primitive to achieve the same effect.

Difficulty should be a tool to create intensity and engagement, not discouragement. Everybody should be able to play this game from the beginning to the end, experiencing those setpieces.

This is unacceptable by today's standards, but it was the norm back then.
That's todays way of thinking: everyone should be able to complete a game, with the actual challenge coming from optional tasks.
Everyone can see a game's ending, some can master it later.

Well, but these games released in 1985 and 1988 iirc.
Back then, you were required to master a game to complete it. You had to play over and over.
And people didn't actually complete most games, it was the equivalent of todays 'getting all platinums'.

Like, I had never heard of anyone in my town who completed arcades like parodius, R type or Rastan or what have you.
Games with checkpoints you couldn't brute force trough with more quarters.

I did hear of people who completed ghouls though. The game was manageable and short enough.

And you would become this sort of legend people talked about.
You would walk into your local arcade and you would hear people whisper to each other "look, he's the one who completed ghouls 'n ghosts" exactly because it wasn't within everyone's reach.
Good times.
 

petran79

Banned
the CPS1 arcade version. Watching the game in the arcades felt as the best action platformer ever. It was quite popular too.
Also you get to know Princess Prin Prin body proportions
 

Castef

Banned
Mmmh... this series has a wonderfully high average quality, so picking the best one is quite difficult.

Within the main series I'd go with Ghouls'n Ghosts, a real masterpiece.

Considering its "expanded universe" I'd probably go with Demon's Crest/Blazon, one of the best Super NES games ever made.
 
Above all, thank you for taking the time to answer me.

The second segment and the boss being part of the same challenge? Why not to make the whole stage part of the same challenge? It would be more difficult and challenging that way. Where do we draw the line?

People of all skill levels should be able to beat a game, and not only arcade enthusiasts that lived there. Arcades are a business, and if somebody found this (or any other) game too difficult, there's a risk that he would walk out of frustration and never play this game again, which is a loss of income for the company. A game can be difficult but manageable, offering different approaches to a single problem and not asking for a super play for every move.

Games back at that time were difficult for many reasons, many of which have been disclosed in recent interviews. Arcade games were to make more money out of you, not for intensity or anything like that. Console games were also difficult because they had short development cycles and they had to be made that way to prevent children with lots of free time to master them and beat them quickly. Those kids are now parents and have limited time to spend on games, and they should be able to play, have fun and beat those games, and not spend all their free time trying to beat that boss for the 100th time. Sometimes they didn't have feedback from players outside the development cycle, but from the game testers and developers, and they made it even more difficult! This is the story of Ninja Gaiden if I remember correctly.

Then again, modern gaming concedes this point. I'm playing Ultimate GnG right now and it is exactly what I thought it would be. You have multiple hits, respawns, several items and savestates, because that is what people demands right now. Difficulty in this series doesn't only come out as part of the artistic vision or design, but of necessity, because they are actually short games when you know what to do. From 1993 to 2006 the gaming landscape had completely changed. I concede that difficulty is part of the series' signature, but how much difficulty is needed?

One of my favourite arcade games is Radiant Silvergun. If you play it like a normal shmup it is more or less easy, but if you want to get a high score, you need to kill enemies in patterns and leave many untouched, which fills the screen with bullets thus making it harder. It is clever design and has something for everyone. It is a 1998 game and it shows the arcade school of gaming was changing to something more democratic.

To your checkpoint argument - the developers chose to divide the levels up in that way, and they are reasonably completeable that way, so there's no problem. GnG bosses are typically fairly simplistic (compared to, say, Mega Man bosses) with low health, so it's reasonable to ask the player to defeat them and the latter half of the stage in one go (which might not entirely be the case in a Mega Man game, given that series' typically sturdier bosses). Also, the spaced out checkpoints don't just serve to increase difficulty - not being thrown right back into the boss fight on death gives the player a chance to change their weapon or return to the fight with gold armor, if they need it. That said, I think the game is best played on one credit anyway - its randomness and intensity mean that it's always fun to replay - so I don't have any problem viewing the entire game as one unit; as one continuous challenge.

Ghouls 'n Ghosts allows for plenty of versatility. Look up several playthroughs on Youtube and you'll see that the game offers enough freedom to take on its challenges with a variety of different weapons (even the weaker ones) and different strategies. The game is difficult, but not oppressively so. And there are plenty of classic arcade games that are significantly harder (Ghosts 'n Goblins, Final Fight, Dodonpachi) yet that still went on to earn great success in arcades - so who's to say what really is too hard? Clearly the GnG games were not.

Yes, arcade games were made to be hard because easy games would make less money; I admitted that myself earlier. And some difficult console games were difficult because they didn't have that difficulty tested out of them - that is true. But that's completely irrelevant. Those points don't change the fact that those games are better for that. Just compare Ghouls 'n Ghosts to, say, Mega Man or Mega Man 2. The GnG games were made as arcade-level challenges intended to kick weaker players off their credits quickly; the first Mega Man games were designed as easier, milder challenges meant to be completed by players of all skill levels. The end result of that is that the Mega Man games are significantly less replayable and less intense games, with far sparser stages and plenty of "easy outs" that let even mid-tier players break the games over their knee (and incidentally, they're far less polished games, too). They respect their players far less than the GnG games.

I think what you're asking for comes across as a little distasteful. So because working adults can't or won't spend the time to learn games now, the games should lower themselves to meet their audience, rather than try to surpass what came before? The player should raise themselves to meet the game, not vice-versa - and really, arcade-style games like Ghouls 'n Ghosts are perfect for the gamer with little time because they're easily playable in short bursts. People who lack dedication can find something else to play; no one is entitled to see all a game has to offer just because they set hands on the controller (although of course there are plenty of games made with that philosophy in mind).

I can't say I care much for the initial release of Ultimate Ghosts 'n Goblins. The severe cutbacks in difficulty on the easy modes aside, I don't think the backtracking and item collecting elements fit the series especially well. Capcom and series creator Fujiwara apparently agreed, since a year later they re-released the game and included a new arcade-style mode that brings the game back in line with the previous entries (which I think is the definitive version of the game). And I don't think I'm all about Radiant Silvergun either - absolutely gorgeous aesthetics, but the scoring system is kind of tedious, and asking you to limit yourself to only killing one-third of the enemies isn't very enjoyable. I don't think I'd call it "easy" to play, either. Shmups, more than almost any other genre, are severely devalued if you choose to credit feed (you literally can't lose, and getting through the game is just a matter of time - you may as well be watching a Youtube video). That said, I think there are really great shmups that came out years later that still adhere to older, well-supported arcade design philosophies - look at Dodonpachi (1997 - not later, but close enough to RS), Ketsui and Espgaluda (2003), and Mushihimesama (2004).
 
I know it is, everything considered it is the better game, the more accomplished and fleshed out one of the series.

But it just loses its charm without the pixel art and rounded aesthetics which are a huge part of why I loved gng games in first place. I would even say its charisma, not gameplay, is what set those games apart, and UGnG early 2.5D graphics were a tad too primitive to achieve the same effect.

You know what, I'm going to agree with you even if it goes against my usual gameplay > visuals stance. This is exactly why I feel the PSP game is not the same.
 

GenG3000

Member
I think what you're asking for comes across as a little distasteful. So because working adults can't or won't spend the time to learn games now, the games should lower themselves to meet their audience, rather than try to surpass what came before? The player should raise themselves to meet the game, not vice-versa - and really, arcade-style games like Ghouls 'n Ghosts are perfect for the gamer with little time because they're easily playable in short bursts. People who lack dedication can find something else to play; no one is entitled to see all a game has to offer just because they set hands on the controller (although of course there are plenty of games made with that philosophy in mind).

I can't say I care much for the initial release of Ultimate Ghosts 'n Goblins. The severe cutbacks in difficulty on the easy modes aside, I don't think the backtracking and item collecting elements fit the series especially well. Capcom and series creator Fujiwara apparently agreed, since a year later they re-released the game and included a new arcade-style mode that brings the game back in line with the previous entries (which I think is the definitive version of the game). And I don't think I'm all about Radiant Silvergun either - absolutely gorgeous aesthetics, but the scoring system is kind of tedious, and asking you to limit yourself to only killing one-third of the enemies isn't very enjoyable. I don't think I'd call it "easy" to play, either. Shmups, more than almost any other genre, are severely devalued if you choose to credit feed (you literally can't lose, and getting through the game is just a matter of time - you may as well be watching a Youtube video). That said, I think there are really great shmups that came out years later that still adhere to older, well-supported arcade design philosophies - look at Dodonpachi (1997 - not later, but close enough to RS), Ketsui and Espgaluda (2003), and Mushihimesama (2004).

I don't think it's distasteful at all. It's a matter of giving chances to part of your audience to enjoy the game. Games were originally meant for kids and teenagers, and those are now full-time workers and fathers. At the end, the point of games is to have fun, and options should be allowed for everybody to have fun within the limitations of your game. Goku Makaimura Kai does that nicely, with the different settings. I'm not a fan of the RPG elements in this one since many interesting ideas like the dragon shield or the winged armor clash with the arcade design, and it's nice to see Kai fixing that (though I'd love to see a Makaimura going full Metroid or Castlevania).

Anyway, I've been playing Ghouls all the week and I take back most (if not all) of the things I said. It's not difficult at all when you know the levels and plan a route through them, and it becomes highly addictive (most temple levels in any of the two of the modern Donkey Kong Country are much harder and ruthless than anything here). The boss are all cheese, even the true last boss, so I take back the complaints about the checkpoints. I've beat the game two times already, one in easy and one in normal, and I've even left Goku Makaimura unfinished because I always want to go back to Dai. I can't say if it is an absolute masterpiece since I don't have that much experience with arcade platformers but its controls, responsiveness, speed length and pace are just spot on for a game like this, and on top of that you have the charming art, the clever setpieces and the sound track. Sir Arthur feels so good in this one that it makes Cho Makaimura an unenjoyable chore, and that's a pity since art and music in that one are among the best in the series.

I've decided to focus on Dai and Goku right now, the ones I found the most interesting to play of the bunch. The love-hate relationship between player and game with this series is quite interesting and definitely part of its charm.
 

Pinky

Banned
I have a soft spot for the original Ghosts 'n' Goblins arcade game and the NES version. Brutal as hell, but still fun to play.

I would love to see a reboot of GnG done in a retro 16/32 bit graphic style. Hell, I wouldn't mind a reboot using a modern style similar to Bloodstained either. Would look rather nice. All in 2D, of course.
 

Rukes

The front page still gets no respect
Ghouls N Ghosts for the Genesis was always fun to play with the Space Harrier II cart swap invincibility trick.
 
My favourite always will be Ghosts 'n' Goblins, just because of how much time I spent playing the C64 version. But TBH I never realised how many games were in the series!

I've just been pointed to a fan made game called Ghosts'n Demons, its absolutely fantastic and you guys should defo check it out!!....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTNwrLmYOoo
There's a similar style game called Maldita Castilla, which is free. Found it via GAF in a GnG-related thread a while back.
 
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