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Sonic 3 is the best 2D sonic game, right?

Azure J

Member
Sonic 3+Knuckles > Sonic 1 = Sonic CD > Sonic 2.


The funny thing is Sonic 2 is great fun, it's just that Sonic 1 had a cool hook that made the platforming more interesting (no spindash), Sonic CD had excellent presentation and very unique level design and Sonic 3K was a MONSTER with the best level designs (barring the one blunder with the barrel), highest level of replayability and the best look out of the 2D games period.
 

Ty4on

Member
wtmxhUb.png


That extra shading and rounder, more appealing look. Ugh. Sonic should have stayed in 1992.

Sonic 3 sprite looks better and blends much better in with the graphics. Sonic 3 graphics look much better than the flat style in Sonic 1 and 2.

There I said it. Has bugged me for years because it just looks so outlined in the older games.
 

Cody_D165

Banned
Sonic CD does have an awesome soundtrack, though (both US and JP versions).

I like the endboss battles in CD as well. The pinball one in particular stands out in my mind.
 

sibarraz

Banned
Looking at that boxart, I always wish that SEGA decides to make knuckles once again as the big badass that he was from the beggining, I mean, just for that cover you could tell that those 2 were awesome

I'm fine with shadow as sonic rival, but why not knuckles too?
 
People saying Sonic CD need to explain themselves. Level design wise, it's one of the most incoherent Sonic games, let alone platforming game that I've ever played in my life. How people could have fun playing such a neon colored mess of level structures baffles me.

The OST (both!) are godly though.
 
People saying Sonic CD need to explain themselves. Level design wise, it's one of the most incoherent Sonic games, let alone platforming game that I've ever played in my life. How people could have fun playing such a neon colored mess of level structures baffles me.

The OST (both!) are godly though.

YES! I have no idea how people can enjoy Sonic CD. I've tried. I mean, God, I have tried and there's nothing at all I can enjoy about that game.
 
Sonic 3 sprite looks better and blends much better in with the graphics. Sonic 3 graphics look much better than the flat style in Sonic 1 and 2.

There I said it. Has bugged me for years because it just looks so outlined in the older games.

I was being sarcastic. Those are my same reasons for liking Sonic 3's sprite more. :)
 

Greenzxy

Junior Member
wtmxhUb.png


That extra shading and rounder, more appealing look. Ugh. Sonic should have stayed in 1992.



Sonic 3 sprite looks better and blends much better in with the graphics. Sonic 3 graphics look much better than the flat style in Sonic 1 and 2.

There I said it. Has bugged me for years because it just looks so outlined in the older games.

Wait, there are people that actually prefer Sonic 1/2 sprite compared to 3 & knuckles?
This shouldn't even be a debate, Sonic 3's sprite is MILES better than the older ones.

Edit: Nvm, I didn't see the sarcasm.
 

The Boat

Member
I'm always amazed at how many people love Sonic CD, I played it recently and the level design is atrocious, even reminds me of recent 2D Sonics with a mess of alternate unremarkable paths and obstacles that mess the flow of the game. Amazing JP OST though. To each one its own of course.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is where it's at for me.
 

Daingurse

Member
YES! I have no idea how people can enjoy Sonic CD. I've tried. I mean, God, I have tried and there's nothing at all I can enjoy about that game.

I bought the excellent HD re-release a while back, never owned a Sega CD and I never could get my PC version to work as a kid. It was fun, but I don't get the appeal or hype. Definitely wouldn't put it over 2 or 3 & Knuckles.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Also I think Sonic 1 is easily the weakest of the original Sonic games. That's not nessecarily a bad thing because they got better obviously, but you could really tell they were still coming to grips with how to do level design for the series.
 

Daingurse

Member
Also I think Sonic 1 is easily the weakest of the original Sonic games. That's not nessecarily a bad thing because they got better obviously, but you could really tell they were still coming to grips with how to do level design for the series.

agree.gif


Agreed, Sonic 2 is the first videogame I ever played. Even as a child I never liked Sonic 1. Dat spin dash.
 
Also I think Sonic 1 is easily the weakest of the original Sonic games. That's not nessecarily a bad thing because they got better obviously, but you could really tell they were still coming to grips with how to do level design for the series.

I don't think Sonic 1 is all that good. And I say that as a guy who's very first game was Sonic 1 and got me into the whole video gaming thing. The first level was cool(fast-paced, multiple routes, breezy nature), then you get slow, boring, tedious Marble Zone, and then there's Labyrinth zone, and the annoying Brain Scrap one.

I think Sonic 1 gave us the idea, and Sonic 2 delivered on it.

And then Sonic 3 and Knuckles essentially perfected it.
 

entremet

Member
I don't think Sonic 1 is all that good. And I say that as a guy who's very first game was Sonic 1 and got me into the whole video gaming thing. The first level was cool(fast-paced, multiple routes, breezy nature), then you get slow, boring, tedious Marble Zone, and then there's Labyrinth zone, and the annoying Brain Scrap one.

I think Sonic 1 gave us the idea, and Sonic 2 delivered on it.

And then Sonic 3 and Knuckles essentially perfected it.

You missed the amazing Starlight and Spring Yard Zones.
 

Zonic

Gives all the fucks
I don't think Sonic 1 is all that good. And I say that as a guy who's very first game was Sonic 1 and got me into the whole video gaming thing. The first level was cool(fast-paced, multiple routes, breezy nature), then you get slow, boring, tedious Marble Zone, and then there's Labyrinth zone, and the annoying Brain Scrap one.

I think Sonic 1 gave us the idea, and Sonic 2 delivered on it.

And then Sonic 3 and Knuckles essentially perfected it.
I think this sums up what I think of the trilogy. Sonic 1, while okay, feels sooooo slow compared to 2 and 3&K. Not to mention Labyrinth Zone made things even slower in a game meant to be about speed. It gets much more platform-y as the game goes on. Not that it's a bad thing, but it kind of makes you miss the sense of speed you got from the first zone.

lolnope its not. It's actually very, very simple to get past: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39HwCcwzbmY
Once ya know, sure. But it's literally the only time that it appears, nothing else like it appears before or after, and it isn't like the other barrels that you encounter in the level. I always assumed you had to jump on it in sync or fly in the air as Tails as high as you can & land on it.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I think this sums up what I think of the trilogy. Sonic 1, while okay, feels sooooo slow compared to 2 and 3&K. Not to mention Labyrinth Zone made things even slower in a game meant to be about speed. It gets much more platform-y as the game goes on. Not that it's a bad thing, but it kind of makes you miss the sense of speed you got from the first zone.

Once ya know, sure. But it's literally the only time that it appears, nothing else like it appears before or after, and it isn't like the other barrels that you encounter in the level. I always assumed you had to jump on it in sync or fly in the air as Tails as high as you can & land on it.

Its not even nessecarily that its slow, Sonic 1 just has so many spots that kill momentum. Sonics 2 and 3 definitly aren't top speed all the time but they're pretty low on areas where you just stop moving
 

Ty4on

Member
Edit: ^^^^^ The joys of playing Sonic games for the first time in the 21. century ^^

Its not even nessecarily that its slow, Sonic 1 just has so many spots that kill momentum. Sonics 2 and 3 definitly aren't top speed all the time but they're pretty low on areas where you just stop moving

Agree. Sonic CD levels are like Sonic 1 levels on steroids.

And while we're at it Hydrocity is the best fucking level of any game! Dat music, dat speed :D
Chemical Plant is nice as well with the camera not keeping up or what I assumed Sega considered to be Blast Processing :p
 

sibarraz

Banned
The only stage that I found to be incredible bad in Sonic 1 is scrap brain zone, is not hard in the sense of ''I need more practice to past it'' but more in the sense of ''Please finish this level soon''

In CD the same happens with wacky workbench.

But yeah, in both games I love the designs, sonic 1 it has something charming that I still find it good and CD is more an exploration game than a platafform, even though at times it gets really tedious, but overall I love the approach of that game, and the art and music desig is so superb
 

The Boat

Member
lolnope its not. It's actually very, very simple to get past: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39HwCcwzbmY

It doesn't matter if it's easy to get past after you know how to do it, it was a terribly designed part because there's no logic behind it. There's nothing like it in the game, nothing that controls like this, no similar puzzle, nothing to even suggest you're supposed to do it like that. The fact that jumping up and down does something, indicates to that being the solution and that's what it should be. It's not a case of being "old-school hard" with no hand-holding, it's just a badly designed obstacle, otherwise you wouldn't have so many people having problems with it.
 

Noogy

Member
I think I can say with all certainty that I was not the only kid who had no damn idea how to get past that.

Yep, that part stopped me in my tracks for a week as a kid.

And I agree, Sonic 3 is my favorite Sonic, probably ever, followed by 1. For some reason never cared for 2.
 

Azure J

Member
lolnope its not. It's actually very, very simple to get past: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39HwCcwzbmY

The problem isn't that it's simple to get past, the problem is, you are never previously presented with a similar use of up and down inputs to teach a new player how to overcome that segment EVER in the previous entries in the franchise at that time.

Edit: Oh shit, The Boat beat me to this.

With that said, Sonic 3+K is still the gold standard of the Genesis Sonics. The scale and open-endedness with getting from point A to the goal at point B is unmatched.
 
While i'd say that the combined full version of Sonic 3 that is Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the outright best i'd also say that taken on its own merits Sonic 3 is still right up there, it may be short but it's pretty sweet all the way through and I prefer it to the "& Knuckles" portion of the duo.

To kick things off Sonic 3 casts away the opening zone look that Green and Emerald Hill shared, no chequered ground here on Angel Island, instead the lush jungle paradise gets burst into flames shortly into the first act which is not only a surprising way to take things for an opening act but it really lets the visuals show off, Sonic 3 is a much more cinematic game than those before it but not enough that it's intrusive, it's a nice touch that also lends itself to creating a link between all the stages you visit. I tend to like it more each time I play it which is worth something.

The second Zone Hydrocity dares to challenge the notion that water in Sonic has to suck, Hydrocity creates a watery environment that's relatively safe with the new bubble shield removing the need for air and deflecting certain enemy turret shots, currents wash Sonic through underwater passages and soon enough you're back on land zipping down waterslides and running at such a speed that Sonic sprints across the waters surface, the stage creates a neat bit of contrast, fast paced land sections mixed with the slower water sections and they manage to merge quite well, once you start getting a bit tired of the pace of one the game will switch things around again. Act 2 has a memorable start with the killer crushing wall, its' perhaps a bit too much for this early portion of the game but I like it. Going back to the slow and speed juxtaposition even both stages themes take a slower and faster version of the similar melody.

Marble Garden might be viewed as the weakest link of Sonic 3, there's certainly some flaws to this place, it's almost like it's designed to have as much speed halting enemies as possible with the giant ball and chains, faking you out with fake spike traps, those blasted grasshoppers and even the slowing mud that populates the stage, I don't have much to say on this zone but the later part of Act 2 is rather dynamic with the ruins and earth itself all rumbling in such a way that the layout is ever shifting in an effort to crush Sonic. The boss also makes use of the duo dynamic of Sonic and Tails.

Carnival Night falls victim to the infamous barrel trap that holds a lot of weight when it comes to peoples memories of the zone, but this zone is more than just a poorly explained barrel, it's one that pushes the chaotic nature of its predecessors (Spring Yard, Casino Night) even further with more varying stage elements and more bouncing around. Effectively this zone is a mess but it's a mess in the best way possible, even when it feels like you might be completely heading in the wrong direction you will eventually reach your destination. Act 2 has an interesting visual shift midway through when the evry interfering Knuckles knocks the power out, I probably prefer Casino Night to Carnival Night but get past that barrel and it's not a bad zone.

Ice Cap actually starts with an act i'm not too fond of, Sonic snowboarding holds zero gameplay, it's just a cool visual, the stage takes place in a cave that incorporates the same magical technology that Sonic 1's labyrinth employs, that being looping areas of map that keep going around and around until you get Sonic down the right path, so no i'm not so big on act 1. Act 2 however is a great recovery, bursting out of the cave and onto the exterior, Act 2 is a stage that really rewards you for platforming up to the top route and keeping out of the cave areas.

Lastly we've got Launch Base, since it's not truly the final zone of this saga it's not really that difficult, I find it pretty fun regardless and it's a different take on the usual Robotnik/Eggman tech fortress theme with a focus on exterior areas and even a quick dip in the wet stuff but never in a way that slows you down much, it keeps a speedy focus and doesn't lob traps every step of the way like scrap brain nor does it cause the grief that Metropolis seems to (personally i'm fine with that zone).

So that's not a huge selection of Zones, Sonic 2's greater wealth of stage content is enough to possibly still stand above Sonic 3 but then again Sonic 2 has Sky Chase and Wing Fortress so maybe I do prefer Sonic 3 on its own.
The save mechanic is much appreciated, Tails is fully playable with his own unique paths increasing the replay value, music is consistently funky, the visuals are bolder, the stages more flashy and dynamic, the shields open up more variation in how you can approach sections.
Basically i'll stand behind Sonic 3, bolt on Sonic & Knuckles and it gets stronger still.
 
Its not even nessecarily that its slow, Sonic 1 just has so many spots that kill momentum. Sonics 2 and 3 definitly aren't top speed all the time but they're pretty low on areas where you just stop moving

Also, most of the zones are almost all right angles, which really misses the point of having a main character that can roll up and down hills and slopes and play with speed and momentum.

Then you play Sonic 2 and there's all these vertical spaces and those metal hill/road things in Chemical Plant Zone you're rolling over and you're like awwwww yeah this is that game, son
 

Zonic

Gives all the fucks
Its not even nessecarily that its slow, Sonic 1 just has so many spots that kill momentum. Sonics 2 and 3 definitly aren't top speed all the time but they're pretty low on areas where you just stop moving
I get what ya mean. It also doesn't help there's no spin dash, so there's no easy way to gain that momentum back, especially if you're trying to go up hill.

....yes, spin dash was in that GBA version, but good lord was that an abomination of a port.
 
I never did the lock on lol. I beat Sonic and Knuckles as standalone title as a kid.

S3's OST is also so muck better than S/K.

Agree so much with this. This is why if I want to replay Sonic 3, I'll always play it as standalone Sonic 3 and not Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I always hated how they god rid of the superior mid boss theme and Knuckles theme that Sonic 3 had. Not to mention the boss battle at the end of Sonic 3 that was taken out in S 3&K.
 

Ty4on

Member
Edit: ^^^^ INTRO!!!

Act 2 has a memorable start with the killer crushing wall, its' perhaps a bit too much for this early portion of the game but I like it. Going back to the slow and speed juxtaposition even both stages themes take a slower and faster version of the similar melody.

Don't think the wall has ever killed me and I'm a baaad Sonic player :p

I like it because it's dramatic, but unlike a QET I'm still in control. It's really good at creating fear of that wall crushing in behind me while not being frustrating. Challenges you not to be panicked and carry on spindashing. Just good level design I wish was more common :/
 
Throw me in the camp of Sonic 1 ain't as great as the sequels, Marble Zone is one the biggest kicks to the bollocks in video game history as far as i'm concerned, Green Hill presents you with Sonic's main hooks, his speed and the expansive levels.
Marble Zone pulls out the rug from beneath you and sends you down a single linear path tucked in tight tunnels, slow paced to the point that you're pushing stone blocks in a platformer that touts itself as being so fast it left Mario in the dust yet SMW plays far faster than this tedious terror of a stage.
The game never truly regains the momentum promised by Green Hill Zone.

Don't think the wall has ever killed me and I'm a baaad Sonic player :p

I like it because it's dramatic, but unlike a QET I'm still in control. It's really good at creating fear of that wall crushing in behind me while not being frustrating. Challenges you not to be panicked and carry on spindashing. Just good level design I wish was more common :/
Maybe i'm even worse!
It's basically just if for whatever reason you bugger up your spindash up one of the first few slopes in the water you're basically going to be eating bricks, it's not actually that tricky but the sudden sense of panic it creates is enough to have caught me out a few times in my younger days at least with half baked spin dashes.
 

Awakened

Member
Agree so much with this. This is why if I want to replay Sonic 3, I'll always play it as standalone Sonic 3 and not Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I always hated how they god rid of the superior mid boss theme and Knuckles theme that Sonic 3 had. Not to mention the boss battle at the end of Sonic 3 that was taken out in S 3&K.
You should try out the Sonic 3 Complete hack. I believe it defaults to the Sonic 3 themes instead of S&K. If not they can be toggled. It adds that boss fight back in too. That hack is the best way to play Sonic 3 and Knuckles, it's full of great tweaks. Some of my favorites are the ability to play sped up level music when transformed instead of the invincibility music, and the ability to de-transform at will. The latest version added the "Tails Assist" from the recent Taxman ports also.
 
Yes, Sonic 3 even without Sonic and Knuckles is the best Sonic game.

We need another Sonic and Knuckles game. A 3D game with Lost World style gameplay.
 
wtmxhUb.png


That extra shading and rounder, more appealing look. Ugh. Sonic should have stayed in 1992.
I think he looked best in Sonic 3. It pretty much epitomizes the "classic" pudgy look while his 1 and 2 sprite look lanky by comparison. In contrast his head even looks kinda weird in 2, the shading makes it seem perfectly spherical. with his connecting spines seeming flat.
 

Blueblur1

Member
I've always been unsure which I love better, Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 (& Knuckles). And then Sonic CD comes along last year (which I only played once prior) and I fall in love with it. They're all so freaking awesome. :)
 
Wait, there are people that actually prefer Sonic 1/2 sprite compared to 3 & knuckles?
This shouldn't even be a debate, Sonic 3's sprite is MILES better than the older ones.

Edit: Nvm, I didn't see the sarcasm.

raises hand, I prefer Sonic 2's sprite over Sonic 3's
 
The people who think that Sonic 2 is better than Sonic 3 & Knuckles must be the same sort of people who like Dr. Mario more than Tetris and Super Smash Bros. Brawl more than Melee. But hey, it's OK to like inferior things.

I'm big on Dr. Mario, and playing Melee for the first time after owning Brawl, I found the gameplay differences in Melee overhyped versus all of the bonuses and characters packed into Brawl, and I still think that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a substantially better, more polished game than 2.

The Sonic games started at a disadvantage competing against the Mario games, which at the time had already iterated and improved their gameplay 3 times (4 times if you count both versions of Mario 2), and in comparison the Genesis/MD Sonic games often felt just a little looser, a little glitchier, a little less polished than Mario ones. I think that the staff getting the extra time to complete the whole thing by breaking it into two games really let them achieve a Super Mario level of polish with the levels that they had in each game, versus Sonic 2, which was a long, very good game but still was allegedly rushed out of the door for the holiday season.

S3&K is still one of my favorite games, and with all of the different paths, different characters (Tails is easy mode! Knuckles is hard mode! AND THEY ALL PLAY DIFFERENTLY WITH SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT LEVELS!), unlockable "real" final stage, it had a depth and replayability to it at or possibly even beyond what the Mario games had at the time. I still find hidden things I didn't know about in it sometimes.

Marble Garden is a little tiresome, and the Carnival Zone barrel took me a night to figure out -- those are really the only slights that I can level against it. Once I hit the Metropolis Zone/Sky Chase/Wing Fortress sequence in Sonic 2, I just about lose interest, and the Silver Sonic/Giant Robotnik final boss gauntlet with no rings just feels like a chore.

The actual correct answer:

250px-Sonic1_box_usa.jpg

I dunno, at only the 4th level of the game, Labyrinth Zone kills all of the momentum of the game, and I have a lot of patience for Sonic water levels. Can you believe that they were originally planning for Labyrinth Zone to be the second zone of Sonic 1?
 
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