Craig of War
Banned
OK but Sony share of Epic is like what less than 5% wile Tencent own 40% already lol
Sony basically funding Tencent
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sony has invested another $1b in Epic Games
- Thread starter HeisenbergFX4
- Start date
Sony basically funding Tencent
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
They don't care who they're funding lol. That's not the point of the investment. The point is for direct involvement and all the legal rights that go with it, and if they ever do get acquired, they can cash out with more money than they put in
Last edited:
Pedro Motta
Member
It’s called - risk.
Craig of War
Banned
Yeah well us consumer won't see shit from that funding wile if Sony put that 1 billion into more game studio acquisition us gamer will benefit as we get more games wile this funding into Epic will gives us more Fortnite and Unreal Engine monopoly
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
Lmao. You won't see the vast majority of the money Sony makes so you may as well come to peace with that.
Minority stakes give you access to intellectual property. This means it's beneficial for Sony's FP studios and their own technology too. It's give and take.
Last edited:
Varteras
Gold Member
Insomniac priced for that much for a few reasons. One being, yes, they lacked their own IP. Another being that it was a pre-COVID time. Literally right before. Prices on things hadn't soared yet. Also, the market was not quite in acquisition mode at the time so studios didn't have that leverage. It also helped that Insomniac and Sony had a very close and long running relationship. Ted Price was likely far more amenable to Sony's offers. A lot of people have agreed that Sony absolutely under paid for Insomniac. Especially considering that Remedy was valued at $400 million.
Actually, investments they make like this WILL have future implications for available products. Some you may like. Some you may not. If Sony invests a billion now and then sells it at five billion later and uses that to make other acquisitions, that was worth it, yes? Also, Sony buying a studio doesn't mean we get more games immediately. It means Sony owns a studio and they get the money from what that studio makes. Then they use that money to make more games. Maybe grow the studio so they can work on even more games. And they take that money and maybe buy other studios to repeat the cycle. That is also an investment. Just like with Epic. Sony is banking on this investment making them more money down the road so they can do more things. Just like buying a studio.
Craig of War
Banned
I don't agree with what Sony is doing with Epic Investment either go all in or don't cause the little invesment like 200 million here and now 1 billion is peanuts
so go all in or don't
& where is this 400m price for Remedy i can't find anything about that did you make that number up lol
Varteras
Gold Member
Really not that hard to find. Their market cap is currently valued at $451 million. It was about $400 million a few years ago when Zhuge and a few others on ResetEra were talking about the rumor of Sony buying them and why they probably won't now. Someone brought up that them being publicly traded at $400 million was likely a deal breaker since they paid $230 million for Insomniac
Craig of War
Banned
Market cap and what they will sell for are totally different and i believe Remedy owns more valuable IP than Insomniac like Alan Wake & Control that probably why they are worth more than Insomniac
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Maybe, maybe not. Many devs are dropping their in-house engines for UE5.
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
Different divisions. That money wouldn’t have reached PlayStation.
Yas that tooAnd some type of dibs with Fortnite
Varteras
Gold Member
As a publicly traded company, if Sony wanted to buy them they'd almost certainly have to do a stock buyout. Meaning they'd have to pay at least $450 million and likely a premium. Alan Wake and Control are not such valuable IP that they are worth the $220 million difference from what Sony paid for Insomniac.
Shmunter
Member
Yeah, they shot themselves in the foot
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Craig of War
Banned
Alan Wake and Control are more valuable than anything Insomniac owns so wile you can downplay their worth it does matter when it comes to buying a game studio that why Bungie is worth 3.6 billion
Bungie without the Destiny IP is not worth 3.6 billion lol
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Are you saying Alan Wake and Control are more valuable that Niche-Man and the upcoming Angry-Hairy Niche-Man?
Now they don't own Niche-Man per say, but Sony does own Niche-Man movie rights, and Niche-Man first party gaming in current year.
Last edited:
Craig of War
Banned
I don't even think Sony own Niche-Man i think Marvel do as in Sony owns Niche-Man movie rights but the gaming rights to Niche-Man is owned by Disney/Marvel it some confusing stuff with Niche-Man owner
but for Insomniac they own nothing none of the games they make for sony they don't own so Spiderman & Ratchet they don't own and same for Wolverine
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It doesn't matter, contracts are signed where Sony is the sole first party to develop, and they are 20+ million sellers. They make bank on that alone.
Alan Wake, while cult following in the vein of let's say, Evil Dead (generously) and Twin Peaks (worst case) is not worth more than even a licensing of that first party Niche-Banger. Control, even less so taking away 2rd party publishing.
Hell, Silent Hill that hasn't had a game in forevermore, is far sought after, but not nearly as much as Niche-Man or Angry-Hairy Niche-Man.
And I am not even into Spider-Man in general and would prefer the Alan Wakes or SHs.
Last edited:
Craig of War
Banned
I believe that only happen cause Sony agree to let Marvel used Spiderman in their Avengers film that why Marvel agree to let spiderman be a playstation exclusive cause before this Spiderman was on all platform lol
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That's the rumor, they try to deny it, but who knows.I believe that only happen cause Sony agree to let Marvel used Spiderman in their Avengers film that why Marvel agree to let spiderman be a playstation exclusive cause before this Spiderman was on all platform lol
Either way, I'm kinda looking forward to the short hairy angry man, since I'm interested in how they will handle a lot of visceral melee play vs ranged they are used to dishing out. Hoping there will be lots of physics destruction around the environment.
Craig of War
Banned
short hairy angry man?
Varteras
Gold Member
Alan Wake and Control are single game IPs for the moment. Not even franchises just yet. It took Control a year and a half to sell 2 million copies across 5 or 6 platforms that had hundreds of millions worth of an install base. Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart sold over 1 million in a month on a single console that was hard to find then and still is now. Of course Destiny makes Bungie a lot more valuable. And neither Alan Wake nor Control are anywhere near Destiny in that conversation. They don't bring in hundreds of millions a year, every year. Bungie's value was also inflated by how badly Sony wanted their expertise in live-service games. Which is why $1.2 billion out of $3.6 billion is a retention bonus for their talent.
Insomniac has shown not only great technical skills but also incredible efficiency. From 2013 to 2021, they released 18 games. Of those, 8 of them were big projects. Meaning Insomniac was averaging almost a major release per year. In fact, this year will be the first time since 2017 that Insomniac did not have a major release. Insomniac is more valuable than Remedy on a talent level alone. In other words, without IP Remedy isn't in the same ballpark as Insomniac. Alan Wake is really the only IP they own that's worth much of anything and it took the first game 5 years to sell over 3 million copies across 360 and PC. Also worth remembering that at the time Sony was rumored to be looking at them for acquisition, Alan Wake 2 wasn't even a thing.
No, Remedy was not worth that much more than Insomniac then and they're certainly not now.
Last edited:
yurinka
Member
Yes. I also forgot that Sony also makes the video cameras they use to shoot these movies and TV shows using the UE tech.
Last edited:
Craig of War
Banned
OK i never said Insomniac don't have skills they are a great game dev but my point still stand that they don't own any valuable IP
i think the only IP they own is Sunset Overdrive and that a Xbox exclusive lol so you point out that their game sell good but again they Insomniac don't own them games IP so example if another company buy them they would still go for cheaper cause they have no valuable IP that was my point that the game Dev that own valuable IP is what truly drive up the price
Zeroing
Banned
Let's analyse that, if Demon Souls was a PS3 game and it was remade for PS5 that means Bloodborne will be remake for the PS6.
Varteras
Gold Member
I know you didn't say that, bud. What I'm pointing out is that developer talent is also incredibly valuable. I pointed out how it's so valuable that Sony added a huge retention bonus onto the Bungie deal just to make sure their staff stuck around through the acquisition. There is no way Alan Wake, a game with a critical reception of 83, that sold 3.2 million over 5 years on 2 platforms, and will have taken 13 years to get an actual sequel, is somehow a valuable enough IP to make Remedy hundreds of millions of dollars more valuable. Even if you combine Control and Quantum Break, that still doesn't check out. Oh, and the Sunset Overdrive IP is owned by Insomniac. Microsoft simply owns the publishing rights to the first game.
Varteras
Gold Member
The question is, how much would Insomniac be now? Because Sony paid $230 million for them back in 2019. Before all this craziness started. Many thought that was a steal for Sony, even then.
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
Pretty sure Remedy is a public company so you can go find out their market cap.
They're probably more expensive than Insomniac by virtue of the market being overpriced anyway.
They're probably more expensive than Insomniac by virtue of the market being overpriced anyway.
Last edited:
Varteras
Gold Member
They are a public company. I pointed out their market cap is $451 million. Back when rumors were swirling that Sony was in talks to buy them and it ended up not happening, some pointed out that their $400 million cap was likely why the deal didn't happen. Sony had just bought Insomniac for $230 million and many were surprised it was that low. The feeling then was Remedy was overvalued at that price. That they were definitely not worth $170 million more than Insomniac. And that would assume no premiums in a stock buyout.
Yeah trying to separate the success that Insomniac has had in the last 3 years would be a bit tough but I think if it was 2018 insomniac in the 2022 market, I think they would be about 400-450m however its very finger in the sky. I would be interested to know if we had revenue numbers from insomniac at the time.
Really good games but largely worked off others ip.
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
Ah righty sorry missed that.
Well I had a check.
Their market cap was $150 million back in 2019. Remedy certainly isn't worth a high premium so no way would they have cost more than Insomniac
Last edited:
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
$1B into Epic is a lot money.
So where's all the accountants saying Sony has to get $1B of profits out of the deal to break even like in the MS threads?
So where's all the accountants saying Sony has to get $1B of profits out of the deal to break even like in the MS threads?
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
Got some pent up warrior energy you need to let out eh?
Varteras
Gold Member
Yeah I'm not sure what went down and how back then. All I do know was that when they were debating it on ResetEra, someone claimed they were worth $400 million. And this was a couple years ago, at least. I want to say it was in 2020.
Yeah. Insomniac's value was certainly not found in any IP they owned. More to do with talent and efficiency. I mean damn. They pump out games and the quality is almost always there. They had a rough patch from like 2011 to 2013 where their games were just not hitting.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
If Sony owns 5% of Epic now, that means Sony gets 5% of annual profit.
What's Epic's estimated annual profit, compared to $1B billion invested?
Craig of War
Banned
Again them 2 IP's that Remedy own are still way more valuable than whatever IP that Insomniac own
Remedy are 1 of the very best dev at story driven game their Max Payne games are a cult classic so is Alan Wake
they are on par with Insomniac plus they own their own IP you seem to glance over that
IP ownership is what drives the price up example if Insomniac own Ratchet and Spiderman they would go for 5 billion plus easily that how much ownership of the IP will drive up the price
Last edited:
Kagey K
Banned
They don't own 5% it's more like 3.8% which might not seem like a big deal, but in a mulitibillion corporation 1.2% is a lot of difference.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Sounds good.
So 3.8% of profits compared to $1B invested.
If anyone knows the estimated annual Epic profits, we can then determine the number of years required for breakeven analysis just like in the MS threads about Bethesda and Activision where people were armchair accountants.
Kagey K
Banned
They didn't get to 3.8% off this 1 investment.
They previously bought in twice. A billion and a 200k investment in the past.
This new investment will push thier book value up. Meaning thier growth value is reduced by buying in at this new higher rate.
Epic will have to make substantially more money to offset this.
Last edited:
Varteras
Gold Member
I haven't glanced over their IP. Their IP just aren't that valuable. For reasons I've already described. Alan Wake is the only IP they have that has any real value and when you look at its past performance with critics and consumers, it's really not that big. None of their owned IP are. It is absolutely not enough to make Remedy hundreds of millions more valuable than a studio like Insomniac. Insomniac is bigger. They have created several great franchises like Spyro, Ratchet & Clank, and Resistance. All of which had multiple or many entries and proved how capable they are at making great franchises. Even if they don't own them. They do own a number of IP, like Sunset Overdrive and Stormland. They clearly have superior technical skills and their output of major titles is astounding for a single studio making big budget games.
And yeah, of course Spider-Man would greatly inflate their value. It's a massive IP that goes beyond video games. Insomniac made a badass Spider-Man game that sold 20 million copies in under 2 years on a single console. Miles Morales is also said to be behind only Spider-Man and God of War in lifetime dollar sales of a PlayStation published game. Destiny brings in hundreds of millions of dollars every year and every expansion they drop for it is an event on its own. Then you have Alan Wake. A good game that came out 12 years ago and had modest success. You are grossly overestimating the value of Remedy's IP. Sony overpaid for Bungie because they wanted them very badly and that gave Bungie bargaining power.
But I can see we're not going to get anywhere here.
Craig of War
Banned
Im gone to say this 1 last time ok it does not matter how much spiderman or ratchet or even the future wolverine game sold
cause again they don't own the IP Sony and Marvel does so again what does that have to do with their price if they were up for sale lol
Varteras
Gold Member
Oddvintagechap
Member
Across its three investments over the past three years ($250m in 2020; $200m in 2021; $1bn in 2022), Sony has spent $1.45 billion buying equity in Epic Games.
As a result, today Sony owns approximately 5.4%in the interactive entertainment firm.
Sony might need to sell that Scopely into Epic games instead.
As a result, today Sony owns approximately 5.4%in the interactive entertainment firm.
Sony might need to sell that Scopely into Epic games instead.
8BiTw0LF
Banned
Epic has made ~$5 billion in revenue for the past 3 years - even after losing massive amounts of $ on the EGS. ~50% gain in new users every year since start of EGS.
Investments are usually made to profit over many years. $1 billion looks to be very profitable over the next 10-15 years. + Investments gains influence, not a bad thing when the whole metaverse war begins.
Similar threads
- Locked