Support NeoGAF

[InvincibleAgent]

Roy still stings

A clone that was more popular in Smash than his own series, but I'd love for him back. He was a unique design, even if his moves were Marth's.

Actually, since they differentiated Marth's nB, Roy has a unique nB.

 

[Kurtofan]

Thanks.

http://www.smashbros.com/us/3ds/

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I remember maining Samus in Melee then playing a SSBB tournament (they cleverly scheduled it the same day Brawl came out, so it was the first time I was playing). She was so different

 

[Jezan]

What's this knight enemy from?

Zelda Twilight Princess

 

[Beelzebufo]

The man admitted himself that some characters aren't going to be good in 4 players (FFA or Teams). I very much doubt he just balances under FFA and items.

That said, if they do balance under a variety of different gameplay types then they should be aware of how powerful a character can be in a 1v1 scenario and make some tweaks to them that makes them slightly worse under that game mode.

You just have to hope they are aware of how MK was across all game modes in Brawl and that they'll use him as a bar for what shouldn't be the case lol.

No, he balances under everything. Some characters are supposed to be good in FFA, some are supposed to be good in 1v1. So Sakurai probably considered some of the lower-tier characters in Brawl as balanced if they have a good final smash, or moves that can KO groups of opponents who aren't paying attention. And like Meta Knight in comparison had a relatively weak FS.

 

[georly]

What's this knight enemy from?

Game model:

It really is amazing how many enemies are in that mode.

I also really doubt they won't be reused for the Wii U version, so I wonder what mode we could get that features famous nintendo baddies.

 

[Mr Swine]

So with Mario having alt colors that are the same as Wario, does this mean that he is not in the game?

 

[JoeInky]

It really is amazing how many enemies are in that mode.

I also really doubt they won't be reused for the Wii U version, so I wonder what mode we could get that features famous nintendo baddies.

I think in the smash direct he said that assist trophies factor into all star mode at one point, they might be included in there somehow.

 

[Beelzebufo]

So with Mario having alt colors that are the same as Wario, does this mean that he is not in the game?

Yup! That's actually why Wario's never been playable.

 

[JoeInky]

No, he balances under everything. Some characters are supposed to be good in FFA, some are supposed to be good in 1v1. So Sakurai probably considered some of the lower-tier characters in Brawl as balanced if they have a good final smash, or moves that can KO groups of opponents who aren't paying attention. And like Meta Knight in comparison had a relatively weak FS.

Balancing characters around items seems like such an incredibly stupid idea to me given the completely unpredictable nature of the items themselves and the settings people use.

 

[Metal B]

So with Mario having alt colors that are the same as Wario, does this mean that he is not in the game?

Yes, Wario wasn't even playable in the Brawl, because of that.

 

[georly]

So with Mario having alt colors that are the same as Wario, does this mean that he is not in the game?

He had those alt colors in brawl, too. He also had Luigi alt colors.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Man, you guys are being awfully snarky. You could have just said, "Nothing to worry about"

Beaten like a thief drenched in syrup.

 

[SmithnCo]

So with Mario having alt colors that are the same as Wario, does this mean that he is not in the game?

You mean the blue/pink alt and stuff that Wario used to have, right?

I'd be shocked if they ever dropped him.

 

[IntelliHeath]

We know that items/ATs are the same from 3ds - WiiU?

Well, it's very vague.

I'm not sure if anyone post all taunts for newcomers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quEunnROJrI

 

[Kouichi]

Balancing characters around items seems like such an incredibly stupid idea to me given the completely unpredictable nature of the items themselves and the settings people use.

And balancing based on 1v1 only isn't smart given the fact the majority of Smash players play free-for-all with all items on and whatever level they choose.

Given the variety of ways to play, Smash must be such a hard game to balance.

 

[Mr Swine]

Yes, Wario wasn't even playable in the Brawl, because of that.

Yup! That's actually why Wario's never been playable.

How should I know that Mario had the same colors in brawl >< I haven't played with those colors yet :/

 

[Beelzebufo]

How should I know that Mario had the same colors in brawl >< I haven't played with those colors yet :/

He's had them since Smash 64 lol

 

[Goodstyle]

How should I know that Mario had the same colors in brawl >< I haven't played with those colors yet :/

Shoulda been doing your research when you were looking for reasons to say Wario was cut.

 

[Mr Swine]

Shoulda been doing your research when you were looking for reasons to say Wario was cut.

What research?

We are 4 months away and I'm nervous that Wario isn't in the games, he is my main in Brawl

 

[georly]

I'm not sure if anyone post all taunts for newcomers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quEunnROJrI

Very cool, thanks heath, Thanks Ash & team @ game explain.

What research?

We are 4 months away and I'm nervous that Wario isn't in the games, he is my main in Brawl

I predict he's our next veteran reveal, and we'll get him sometime in july!

 

[KittenMaster]

Does Sakurai seriously balance with FFA in mind? I can see giving some characters large AoE specials or normals for that mode, but FFA in most games is usually players gravitating towards whatever is the nearest target that is distracted so I can't see balance being hugely important in it. That, and if items involved character strengths don't play a large part in their actual use (mostly for getting the items and if your final smash is worth a care.)

They just need to do strenuous, serious balance for 1v1 and team play in mind.

 

[JazzmanZ]

What research?

We are 4 months away and I'm nervous that Wario isn't in the games, he is my main in Brawl

You're nervous because a character who's obviously returning is coming back?

 

[georly]

Does Sakurai seriously balance with FFA in mind? I can see giving some characters large AoE specials or normals for that mode, but FFA in most games is usually players gravitating towards whatever is the nearest target that is distracted so I can't see balance being hugely important in it. That, and if items involved character strengths don't play a large part in their actual use (mostly for getting the items and if your final smash is worth a care.)

They just need to do strenuous, serious balance for 1v1 and team play in mind.

Sakurai or someone mentioned that certain characters are better FFA and certain are better 1v1. He doesn't want everyone to only be balanced for one mode. I dunno.

 

[Ryce]

I'm not sure if anyone post all taunts for newcomers?

Little Mac's side taunt is so bizarre that I feel like it has to be a reference to the older games that I'm forgetting.

 

[Kouichi]

What research?

We are 4 months away and I'm nervous that Wario isn't in the games, he is my main in Brawl

Don't worry, he is guaranteed. We've already seen the Wario symbol in the Assist trophy showcase next to Ashley and Waluigi.

 

[IntelliHeath]

What research?

We are 4 months away and I'm nervous that Wario isn't in the games, he is my main in Brawl

He's still in the game.

Ashley is Assist Trophy with WarioWare Icon. IF Wario got cut then WarioWare icon wouldn't exist at all.

Well, maybe Wario's situation might be like Palutena's. He would have 12 special moves instead of 12 variations, so some moves might be based on WarioLand.

 

[NeonZ]

What research?

We are 4 months away and I'm nervous that Wario isn't in the games, he is my main in Brawl

We've already seen the "W" emblem for some content in the new Smash. The only things that get their own emblems are characters and stages. They aren't going to include a Wario stage without Wario himself.

 

[Ryce]

Ashley is Assist Trophy with WarioWare Icon. IF Wario got cut then WarioWare icon wouldn't exist at all.

While you're 99% correct that Wario is returning, technically all it takes to get an icon is a stage.

 

[theprodigy]

Sakurai or someone mentioned that certain characters are better FFA and certain are better 1v1. He doesn't want everyone to only be balanced for one mode. I dunno.

Well let's be real here, most low tiers in Melee/Brawl aren't good in FFA either while most top tiers are good at both.

 

[IntelliHeath]

While you're 99% correct that Wario is returning, technically all it takes to get an icon is a stage.

Oops. I forget all about that.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

I think in the smash direct he said that assist trophies factor into all star mode at one point, they might be included in there somehow.

The consensus here is that there's a good chance that that was a mistranslation

Oops. I forget all about that.

 

[Mit-]

It doesn't matter how he balances the game. Meta Knight is far better than every character in every scenario. Having a lackluster final smash doesn't balance him. He could have zero final smash and he'd still be better than any character in any kind of match. Also he has the same kind of final smash as awful characters such as Falcon and Link.

Also Snake is better than everyone other than Meta Knight and he has a godlike final smash.

And the plethora of exploits such as horrible, easy execution chain grabs from multiple characters further shows his incompetence at balancing.


Balance in smash is a total crap shoot. Always has been. I just hope the 12 person team they have consists of Namco staff experienced in balancing games like Tekken.

 

[ErrorMacro]

I'm not sure this has been discussed before, but what do you guys think about character equipments?

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

In the event of the game developing a healthy competitive scene, could this (together with customizable moves) possibly become an interesting side event? Or maybe even a tool to balance characters for competitive play, with something like default sets of equipments defined by the community in order to better balance weaker characters?

 

[DaBoss]

I'm not sure this has been discussed before, but what do you guys think about character equipments?

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

In the event of the game developing a healthy competitive scene, could this (together with customizable moves) possibly become an interesting side event? Or maybe even a tool to balance characters for competitive play, with something like default sets of equipments defined by the community in order to better balance weaker characters?

It will take too much time for it to be even considered.

 

[theprodigy]

I'm not sure this has been discussed before, but what do you guys think about character equipments?

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

In the event of the game developing a healthy competitive scene, could this (together with customizable moves) possibly become an interesting side event? Or maybe even a tool to balance characters for competitive play, with something like default sets of equipments defined by the community in order to better balance weaker characters?

customized moves seem like they would be legal, the equipment stuff almost certainly will not based on how random the stats seem to be

 

[IntelliHeath]

customized moves seem like they would be legal, the equipment stuff almost certainly will not based on how random the stats seem to be

Yeah, from top of my head, almost all of my friends are interesting to play around with customization but would rather to skipped over the equipments and gears. One of them are planning to host mini-tournament for customization moveset but he's going to banned equipment/gear usage.

I'm going to have a lot of fun with customizations, imo. I know it might not be everyone's cup of tea.

 

[JoeInky]

I'm not sure this has been discussed before, but what do you guys think about character equipments?

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

In the event of the game developing a healthy competitive scene, could this (together with customizable moves) possibly become an interesting side event? Or maybe even a tool to balance characters for competitive play, with something like default sets of equipments defined by the community in order to better balance weaker characters?

Equipment has a very small chance of being allowed in competitive play, there's way too many variables going on and getting an entire community to decide on and enforce rules about which specific pieces of equipment you can use out of however many there are in the game would be ridiculous.

Customisable moves on the other hand have the potential to be great in competitive play, as long as they're all side grades and not upgrades, the moment one of the customisations becomes the only option as opposed to just a little bit of extra help against certain matchups is when customising moves gets thrown out of tournaments.

It also depends on how easy it is to customise moves on the character select screen, if it can't be done from there then it's going to take way too long to have characters ready for each round in a tournament.

And balancing based on 1v1 only isn't smart given the fact the majority of Smash players play free-for-all with all items on and whatever level they choose.

Given the variety of ways to play, Smash must be such a hard game to balance.

My point is that balancing around items due to their random nature is completely inane because certain items might not even spawn in a game, they might spawn but spawn closer to someone else and you can't make use of it, they might spawn but randomly decide to misfire.

He can balance certain characters around being better at FFA than 1v1 and the other way round, with that method you get more interesting character picks in 1v1 and 2v2 competitive play, but balancing it around something completely luck based and global that can be taken advantage of by other players is ridiculous.

 

[KittenMaster]

The Smash Community isn't like Smogon which tries to balance their metagame, they only ban stuff if they deem it too detrimental to the game but for the most part play the game as the top level dictates.

They'll most likely accept customizable moves but won't use them to balance the game, they'll just let people choose whatever moves they like. Best sets will be acknowledged and understood but people will be allowed to deviate from the "best build" if they want to attempt to utilize an unconventional setup an opponent may not be comfortable playing against.

I can't see anything that changes numerical stats being considered though. Just too much trouble and having characters without augmented stats is much easier than trying to get everybody at maxed stats or whatever is completely optimal.

 

[georly]

Equipment also feels like a response to modified brawl games. Specifically brawl minus and brawl +.

It allows you to alter character power/speed so you can craft your own custom version of smash if you don't like it. It'll never be used competitively, but if you feel the game is too slow or certain characters are too weak, you have the power to fix that when playing at home w/ friends. I just wonder how it'll play out, if people will actually use any of it or if people will just revert to playing w/ customization off (in the same way that most people don't play special brawl).

The Smash Community isn't like Smogon which tries to balance their metagame, they only ban stuff if they deem it too detrimental to the game but for the most part play the game as the top level dictates.

They'll most likely accept customizable moves but won't use them to balance the game, they'll just let people choose whatever moves they like. Best sets will be acknowledged and understood but people will be allowed to deviate from the "best build" if they want to attempt to utilize an unconventional setup an opponent may not be comfortable playing against.

I can't see anything that changes numerical stats being considered though. Just too much trouble and having characters without augmented stats is much easier than trying to get everybody at maxed stats or whatever is completely optimal.

Yeah, i'm really hopeful that equipment is banned at the competitive level but custom moves are not (at least for some tournaments). This will make it so that characters that people normally consider to be bad or mediocre might have a fighting chance against 'good' ones if the custom moves are set up just right.

The MAIN reason i can see them being banned though is counterpicking movesets and how long it takes to change them (like, do you have to go into a separate menu or can it be done from the character select screen). If it takes too long to change custom moves (oh, you're playing marth, well i'll do mario w/ ABCD custom moves... oh you're doing Mario with ABCD, well, i'll change my marth to be WXYZ moveset, etc etc etc etc), then it won't be allowed.

 

[JeTmAn81]

So I played some Smash 64 last night. No side specials, eh? Was Link's throw considered OP in that game? The grappling hook gives him amazing range.

 

[ErrorMacro]

Yeah, you guys are right about the equipment. It is an interesting feature, though. It's a shame it probably won't get to be used much.

On the other hand, I'm still very interested in the special move variation. I think they have true potential to become a way for certain characters to overcome some of their weakness, without completely breaking the balance of the game.

 

[georly]

Yeah, you guys are right about the equipment. It is an interesting feature, though. It's a shame it probably won't get to be used much.

On the other hand, I'm still very interested in the special move variation. I think they have true potential to become a way for certain characters to overcome some of their weakness, without completely breaking the balance of the game.

If i had to guess, equipment will help the most for single player stuff. I assume you can bring your custom fighter into single player stuff, and having a super buff/strong version of your character will help you tackle the harder difficulties.

 

[BigFwoosh]

Are the Best Buy Smash Fest events really only on Wednesday and Saturday? I work right by one of the locations but it'll be much more of a trek tomorrow.

 

[KelpPlankton]

So I played some Smash 64 last night. No side specials, eh? Was Link's throw considered OP in that game? The grappling hook gives him amazing range.

Throws in general are incredibly strong in 64, though I think DK and Kirby were usually the top contenders. But I don't know much about 64 on a competitive level. Pikachu was also pretty high up there though.

You could kind of just grab and throw everyone to death without much trouble over and over, as anyone.

 

[KittenMaster]

The main obstacle for whether or not special move customization is that I heard you had to play single player stuff to unlock them which is likely luck based.

(oh, you're playing marth, well i'll do mario w/ ABCD custom moves... oh you're doing Mario with ABCD, well, i'll change my marth to be WXYZ moveset, etc etc etc etc)

They don't allow the winning player to change characters for this reason. Only the loser may counter-pick.

 

[BigFwoosh]

Throws in general are incredibly strong in 64, though I think DK and Kirby were usually the top contenders. But I don't know much about 64 on a competitive level. Pikachu was also pretty high up there though.

You could kind of just grab and throw everyone to death without much trouble over and over, as anyone.

Ah yes, DK's throw is godlike. I never played DK back in the day, but he's my main now for 64.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Equipment is basically stickers for all modes. I doubt they'll be used competitively.

 

[georly]

The main obstacle for whether or not special move customization is that I heard you had to play single player stuff to unlock them which is likely luck based.

They don't allow the winning player to change characters for this reason. Only the loser may counter-pick.

How will it be handled for first picks, though? Maybe first pick you have to pick default, then counter-pick you can pick character AND custom moves.

 

[Neiteio]

When was this screenshot released?