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[MrCookiepants]

This is such shit. This is the developers making no actual effort towards representation or diversity, but rather just doing "whatever" and letting the player fill in the blanks while getting credit for being so "progressive". Because it's vague enough that whatever interpretation you choose can be valid. Pure cowardice.

I don't think this is the case at all.

Eleonore is biologically female, but dresses like a boy, has short hair and chose the abbreviation "Leo" (usually a male name, obviously). And if this bio on the site is accurate, Leo identifies as male.

So it's not so vague if you put it all together. I don't think the game needs to explicitly state the character is biologically a woman. It has nothing to do with his storyline. I think it's handled tastefully.

Or Harada/Namco is trolling us all, idk.

 

[BadWolf]

Well it was weird to begin with, putting Rock Howard in Tekken and then turning him into a girl and all that.

 

[starchild excalibur]

It's Japan, dude. They don't care.

I think many people in this thread are saying that's exactly the problem. If they want to be lazy about it, they can be lazy about it. Just don't say that Leo's identity being haphazardly referenced is a conscious attempt to let people relate how they want to relate. It's just lazy.

Or, at best, they weren't trying to be lazy, but still left a lot of people confused about it (as shown by this thread). You can say that people just don't get it, or you can work to reveal information plainly and accessibly through your game.

 

[Arklite]

Well it was weird to begin with, putting Rock Howard in Tekken and then turning him into a girl and all that.

Leo's been one of the secret guest character all along, huh.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

I'll admit, the slightest genderfluid representation in games makes my day. Though I'm always wary, because most end up primarily joke characters. For example, Leo could be a "what's their gender? haha, you'll never know!" type of character, rather than "here's a genuinely genderfluid character". I can't say this for sure because I've never played a Tekken game, but it does happen. Granted, as long as the devs are tasteful, I have no issues. It's always nice to know rep for us is out there, even if the devs aren't doing it for our sake.

I'm not sure about how 7 will handle it, but in Tekken 6 (the game Leo debuted in) Leo's gender never came up at all. The only thing they've ever done is that Tag 2 had swimsuits for everyone and Leo's included a bikini top as you can see. So on one hand, Leo isn't explicitly defined in any one specific way other than DFAB, so official acknowledgements on that front don't directly come into play or define their character, but they are just a regular character on the roster played completely straight.

 

[Camel Master]

All we know for sure is Leo has a mental illness.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

This is such shit. This is the developers making no actual effort towards representation or diversity, but rather just doing "whatever" and letting the player fill in the blanks while getting credit for being so "progressive". Because it's vague enough that whatever interpretation you choose can be valid. Pure cowardice.

If Leo is transgender, what effort for you expect Namco to exert? What else do you want them to do?

 

[TriAceJP]

I'm not sure about how 7 will handle it, but in Tekken 6 (the game Leo debuted in) Leo's gender never came up at all. The only thing they've ever done is that Tag 2 had swimsuits for everyone and Leo's included a bikini top as you can see. So on one hand, Leo isn't explicitly defined in any one specific way other than DFAB, so official acknowledgements on that front don't directly come into play or define their character, but they are just a regular character on the roster played completely straight.

She's confirmed female in ttt2 and gave her full name.

 

[LordKasual]

I think many people in this thread are saying that's exactly the problem. If they want to be lazy about it, they can be lazy about it. Just don't say that Leo's identity being haphazardly referenced is a conscious attempt to let people relate how they want to relate. It's just lazy.

Or, at best, they weren't trying to be lazy, but still left a lot of people confused about it (as shown by this thread). You can say that people just don't get it, or you can work to reveal information plainly and accessibly through your game.

Which is why I say OP (and most of you) are just reading way too deep into this

people are looking for a flag on a pole representing support. That's clearly not what this is, or what Leo was ever meant to be.

And now a probable error on a localized website is sending people into discussion on whether or not this counts as good representation, when it's a good chance that such a thing didn't even cross the developer's minds. I mean this is Japan we're talking about. They do this all the time.

 

[spazchicken]

This thread has been surprisingly okay, except for a few of these. Here's something to help you be more informed.

That's crazy confusing.

 

[Leafhopper]

I'm kind of over the secrecy of Leo's gender to be honest. Being gender-fluid is fine but it seems like Namco is just trying to be cheeky rather than making any sort of step towards diversity

That's what it always has been really. I can't find it but, I remember them being pretty coy about whether Leo was male or female when they appeared in Tekken 6 almost like that was a game in itself. Although back in the day people referred to Leo as a he in general anyway (thinking they were just a pretty boy like Elliot from DoA.)

That said, I don't know if calling attention to it in the game would have been any better either.

 

[MrCookiepants]

And now a probable error on a localized website is sending people into discussion on whether or not this counts as good representation, when it's a good chance that such a thing didn't even cross the developer's minds.

It's not an error on the site. I'm seeing Youtube comments from years ago saying they did the same thing with Leo's Tekken 6 bio (use "he", "his", "him").

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

She's confirmed female in ttt2 and gave her full name.

Female, yeah, but there's a big difference between being designated female at birth and actually identifying as such. We know Leo was at least DFAB based on the costume and being named Eleonore, but it's never been stated if Leo actually identifies as female, is the thing.

 

[C.Olimar788]

If Leo is transgender, what effort for you expect Namco to exert? What else do you want them to do?

Say so? Maybe in his profile, or maybe even just in an interview. "Leo was designated female at birth but is a male character." That's it. Done.

Representation doesn't have to be hard.

 

[JordanN]

I find it amazing that people seem to set up accounts just for shit posts like that.

They're users from The_Donald or other alt-right sites who come here to stick it "to duh librul media".

 

[Cyber Caesar]

This is such shit. This is the developers making no actual effort towards representation or diversity, but rather just doing "whatever" and letting the player fill in the blanks while getting credit for being so "progressive". Because it's vague enough that whatever interpretation you choose can be valid. Pure cowardice.

Lee is gay already.

Yep. Namco does like to play it too safe sometimes.

 

[LordKasual]

It's not an error on the site. I'm seeing Youtube comments from years ago saying they did the same thing with Tekken 6 bio (use "he", "his", "him").

But again, Harada himself refers to Leo as a woman. Could that be an error too? I think if Leo's concept was a social statement, he would then immediately add "but she identifies as--" afterwards. Otherwise, what even is the point?

She's androgynous, the theme around her was to keep her sex ambiguous. But now that we know her sex....she's instantly trans? How? The character has never made such a statement, so how would you know?

Just sounds like too much of a stretch to me. When Leo HERSELF starts referring to herself as a male, then she's a trans character. The developers (or website writers) (or other characters in the game) doing it means nothing.

Otherwise she's just androgynous, and mistaking her for a male is kind of the entire point.

 

[A Link to the Past]

That's crazy confusing.

Why?

Physical attraction = the type of sex you're attracted to.

Emotional attraction = the type of gender you're attracted to.

Sex assigned at birth = male/female/other.

Gender expression = How you present yourself (men can be feminine and women can be masculine).

Gender identity = The gender you identify as.

But again, Harada himself refers to Leo as a woman. Could that be an error too? I think if Leo's concept was a social statement, he would then immediately add "but she identifies as--" afterwards. Otherwise, what even is the point?

She's androgynous, the theme around her was to keep her sex ambiguous. But now that we know her sex....she's instantly trans? How? The character has never made such a statement, so how would you know?

Just sounds like too much of a stretch to me. When Leo HERSELF starts referring to herself as a male, then she's a trans character.

Otherwise she's just androgynous, and mistaking her for a male is kind of the entire point.

So the character is designed to be ambiguous, but people should not be allowed to interpret Leo as trans or not? Why are you so bothered by the notion that some may?

 

[Shang]

This thread has been surprisingly okay, except for a few of these. Here's something to help you be more informed.

but gender identity and expression are based on what, exactly? the only things I can think of are things that are only historically linked to each sex, like clothing and attitude.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

So, I guess that this character was born as Eleonore, but changed their name to Leo and identifies as male

Pretty good to see a trans character in a Japanese game, if that is what is going on

 

[LordKasual]

So the character is designed to be ambiguous, but people should not be allowed to interpret Leo as trans or not? Why are you so bothered by the notion that some may?

You can interpret her however you like, again that was always the point

but calling the developers lazy for an assumption they probably didn't intend to cause isn't really fair

my point is that people are getting super happy / angry over something that is likely an oversight that is drawing a type of attention today that it did not draw 10 years ago.

 

[Patterbits]

There are two sex's male and female. I can identify as a 90 year old woman, does not make it true and most likely infers a mental illness.

Sex=/= gender

 

[A Link to the Past]

You can interpret her however you like, again that was always the point

but calling the developers lazy for an assumption they probably didn't intend to cause isn't really fair

my point is that people are getting super happy / angry over something that is likely an oversight that is drawing a type of attention today that it did not draw 10 years ago.

You have cited the OP too though, and the OP didn't do much more than acknowledge that this happened and that it's neat.

 

[Gator86]

but gender identity and expression are based on what, exactly? the only things I can think of are things that are only historically linked to each sex, like clothing and attitude.

Identity is more of a self-perception thing - how a person sees themselves in their head. Expression is how they present themselves to the world - how they dress and such. Expression can depend a lot on cultural norms about behavior including clothes, speech, interpersonal style, etc.

 

[C.Olimar788]

but gender identity and expression are based on what, exactly? the only things I can think of are things that are only historically linked to each sex, like clothing and attitude.

Gender identity is what a person says when you ask them what their pronouns are. Gender expression is more tied to how they present themselves, and is more linked to societal norms - a person who wears dresses might do female gender expression. I think it's probably more helpful to not worry too much about gender expression, especially since it's so linked to ever-changing societal standards and incorrect notions of gendered clothing and attitude and the like.

 

[Bronx-Man]

The cynicist in me just thinks this all might be a translation error. But if Leo really is genderfluid, holy crap, way to go Namco.

All we know for sure is Leo has a mental illness.

There are two sex's male and female. I can identify as a 90 year old woman, does not make it true and most likely infers a mental illness.

Juniors gonna junior.

 

[SarusGray]

I'm kind of over the secrecy of Leo's gender to be honest. Being gender-fluid is fine but it seems like Namco is just trying to be cheeky rather than making any sort of step towards diversity

gender fluid is awesome.

 

[NimbusD]

If it's intentional I think that's awesome actually. Just having an character that's gender fluid without any big fanfare about it. Or could even be a trans character. But either way it seems to not be done in any sort of over the top or offensive way. Pretty cool.

 

[BRocknRolla]

There are two sex's male and female. I can identify as a 90 year old woman, does not make it true and most likely infers a mental illness.

All we know for sure is Leo has a mental illness.

Wow. Really putting your account to good use in this thread.

 

[HelenKeller:BlindDeafDTF]

That's cool. Never thought Tekken would be the series to blaze this trail though. Good on them.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Say so? Maybe in his profile, or maybe even just in an interview. "Leo was designated female at birth but is a male character." That's it. Done.

Representation doesn't have to be hard.

Sure but it's not a strike against them if they do just change the character's gender and play it normal. They have officially said they were female in TTT2 now if they officially they're male is that not representation?

 

[LordKasual]

You have cited the OP too though, and the OP didn't do much more than acknowledge that this happened and that it's neat.

Okay...?

 

[TheSeks]

Leo's a male as far as I'm concerned. Just like Elliot in Dead or Alive 4 is a female.

 

[Basketball]

Leo is a girl

The prettiest girl

 

[Acerac]

Sure but it's not a strike against them if they do just change the character's gender and play it normal. They have officially said they were female in TTT2 now if they officially they're male is that not representation?

Quite frankly it feels more genuine if they don't go around shouting about it. It seems cool that the character just is who they are. I know some people in this thread are demanding that there are some lines about what body they had when they were born, but I don't see how that is at all relevant?

 

[Basketball]

I would love to see someone explain
gender fluid to Harada

 

[How About No]

There are two sex's male and female. I can identify as a 90 year old woman, does not make it true and most likely infers a mental illness.

what an introduction and exit from gaf this is

 

[Jebusman]

There are two sex's male and female. I can identify as a 90 year old woman, does not make it true and most likely infers a mental illness.

You've had this account for over 4 years, and at no point during that entire timespan, did you stop and realize that "maybe", this isn't the kind of place for that kind of opinion.

 

[Momentary]

*wrong thread*

 

[joe2187]

I would love to see someone explain
gender fluid to Harada

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Having a transgender or gender fluid character that isn't a) a joke or b) an accident would be incredibly cool. While video game representation outside of heterosexuality is dire enough, representation of not cis people is even worse.

I'm not sure if that is the case here, but it would be nice. Here's hoping

 

[Pinko Marx]

This thread has been surprisingly okay, except for a few of these. Here's something to help you be more informed.

The emotional attraction thing has always been a little weird to me. Isn't emotional attraction just friendship?
I'm willing to be schooled on this to be clear, it's just an awkward distinction in my eyes.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I don't think Leo is transgender so much as this is just a lazy retcon.

 

[7Th]

doesn't sound believable.

In the game. There is a winter coat with a skirt that guys can't wear but Leo can; but there is also a tuxedo that guys can't wear but Leo can.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Quite frankly it feels more genuine if they don't go around shouting about it. It seems cool that the character just is who they are. I know some people in this thread are demanding that there are some lines about what body they had when they were born, but I don't see how that is at all relevant?

Nah that would also be great.

 

[Doomshine]

Well, if anyone wants to try asking:

https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN

https://twitter.com/mykeryu

 

[The Artisan]

Ganryu is topless and super hot!

na...

 

[yanipheonu]

This thread has been surprisingly okay, except for a few of these. Here's something to help you be more informed.

As someone who's done multiple gender issues courses, I don't understand how this graph is supposed to work at all. More confusing than helpful.

 

[Calvero]

There are some clothing items that only guys can wear and there are some clothing items that only girls can wear, yes.

Like what?

 

[MoogleMan]

Likely a mistake on the official site. Leo is officially a female.