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[TylerD]

this coming from a guy who also want his car to let its tire loose and take it to its limit....

Um, no.

I'll throw my 2c into the hat as well...

Why don't I consider the FR-S and BRZ to be slow cars with not enough power? My daily driving is never going to consist of 0-120 mph acceleration runs, drifting, burnouts, driving more than 5/10ths etc...

I want something that makes the act of driving a manual car fun and "FEELS" quick. I want to have the longest periods possible where I am revving the engine and rowing through the gears without braking any major laws. I want a car that is very low to the ground so when I am going at speed it feels faster. I want a sporty suspension that transfers the feel of the road into my hands without being bone jarringly harsh. I basically want a 944 with modern reliability and a warranty and the FR-S / BRZ seems to be exactly this.


I did go check out an auto Raven Black FR-S today. Should be able to test drive it sometime early next week if they don't sell it by then.

Eyes/hands On Impressions:
- very attractive front fascia, the little points that jut forward at the bottom are a nice touch and add aggressiveness to the styling
- the car is tiny in a very good way, looks compact and very purposeful and has that classic coupe look. The raised areas on either side of the roof are striking in a good way.
- closing the doors felt very solid, boot lid felt solid, bonnet was very light
- the wheels look much darker than what i have seen in pictures, those on a white BRZ are going to be HOT in person. I don't think the fender gaps are bad or the wheels are too small.
- 3 people is definitely possible, 4 with an amputee sitting behind the driver
- trunk space with the rear seat folded down is not bad at all. plenty of groceries will fit back there.
- red stitching looks pretty nice, gauge cluster is very functional, like the red and black seats.
- driving position is bliss, steering wheel feels great, bolstering on the seats for my frame 6'0'' 170 is perfect
- rearward visibility is very good
- I actually really like the very simple digital clock, reminds me of a 944
- the buttons feel ok, HVAC controls don't feel spectacular by any means but get the job done
- power output from the speakers is meh but the pioneer touch screen head unit is very responsive

 

[shinshoryuken]

I did go check out an auto Raven Black FR-S today. Should be able to test drive it sometime early next week if they don't sell it by then.

I want to test drive one too, but dayam dealerships people won't even make eye contact with me because I look so young =(

 

[shinshoryuken]

If anyone is really saying that heavier cars with lots of power but a properly tuned chassis and suspension can't be fun...well that's just absurd.

That's what I've been discussing with..

especially this statement:

You can always easily add power. Try getting rid of weight past a certain point.
A lighter car with less power is ALWAYS a better base to build a funkar on.

disregarding every else but the light weight...

 

[TylerD]

I want to test drive one too, but dayam dealerships people won't even make eye contact with me because I look so young =(

Getting hands on with one has reinforced its position as my top choice at this point.

 

[Threi]

Finally ended this long search for a new car:

*note* not a mazdaspeed

 

[reilo]

Finally ended this long search for a new car:

*note* not a mazdaspeed

I think that's obvious...

 

[N-Bomb]

disregarding every else but the light weight...

Notice I said starting as a base. You can always add more creature comforts if you desire. Fact is that with a light chasis, suspension tuning is much simpler. Not to mention starting, stopping, and turning are faster.

"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." -Colin Chapman

 

[reilo]

Are we pretending that adding too much power to a low-weight vehicle is not detrimental?

 

[shinshoryuken]

Are we pretending that adding too much power to a low-weight vehicle is not detrimental?

Exactly! it has to be balance.

you can't just turn any light car into a something its not.

Notice I said starting as a base. You can always add more creature comforts if you desire. Fact is that with a light chasis, suspension tuning is much simpler. Not to mention starting, stopping, and turning are faster.

"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." -Colin Chapman

Good handling is not exclusive to lightweight coupe/hatch.

Like I said give me an example of this magic lightweight car that you can mod, and will start, stop and turn faster than a purpose built sports car.

well everybody craps about the new mustang here..so use that as a benchmark.

 

[ameratsu]

Finally ended this long search for a new car:

*note* not a mazdaspeed

Nice pickup, have fun with it!

 

[PseudoKirby]

Um, no.

I'll throw my 2c into the hat as well...

Why don't I consider the FR-S and BRZ to be slow cars with not enough power? My daily driving is never going to consist of 0-120 mph acceleration runs, drifting, burnouts, driving more than 5/10ths etc...

I want something that makes the act of driving a manual car fun and "FEELS" quick. I want to have the longest periods possible where I am revving the engine and rowing through the gears without braking any major laws. I want a car that is very low to the ground so when I am going at speed it feels faster. I want a sporty suspension that transfers the feel of the road into my hands without being bone jarringly harsh. I basically want a 944 with modern reliability and a warranty and the FR-S / BRZ seems to be exactly this.


I did go check out an auto Raven Black FR-S today. Should be able to test drive it sometime early next week if they don't sell it by then.

Eyes/hands On Impressions:
- very attractive front fascia, the little points that jut forward at the bottom are a nice touch and add aggressiveness to the styling
- the car is tiny in a very good way, looks compact and very purposeful and has that classic coupe look. The raised areas on either side of the roof are striking in a good way.
- closing the doors felt very solid, boot lid felt solid, bonnet was very light
- the wheels look much darker than what i have seen in pictures, those on a white BRZ are going to be HOT in person. I don't think the fender gaps are bad or the wheels are too small.
- 3 people is definitely possible, 4 with an amputee sitting behind the driver
- trunk space with the rear seat folded down is not bad at all. plenty of groceries will fit back there.
- red stitching looks pretty nice, gauge cluster is very functional, like the red and black seats.
- driving position is bliss, steering wheel feels great, bolstering on the seats for my frame 6'0'' 170 is perfect
- rearward visibility is very good
- I actually really like the very simple digital clock, reminds me of a 944
- the buttons feel ok, HVAC controls don't feel spectacular by any means but get the job done
- power output from the speakers is meh but the pioneer touch screen head unit is very responsive

wait you talk about wanting a manual car and then your looking at an auto FRS???

 

[AlphaSnake]

I think that's obvious...

Hahaha, seriously. MS3's are hatch only.

wait you talk about wanting a manual car and then your looking at an auto FRS???

What's wrong with that? He isn't looking at buying it, just to test drive it if that's what the lot has before he places an order. I test drove a 7AT 370Z before buying my 6-speed.

 

[CrashPrime]

Automotive GAF.

So, my Civic got nailed by a Taxi. Gonna get it fixed, and using my medical settlement for buy a new city car.

Is this unmanly?

In that color scheme, it is not unmanly at all. The Abarth is one of the coolest subcompacts to come out in a looooong time.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

People are shitting on the Abarth?
thisisneogaf.jpg

 

[reilo]

Hahaha, seriously. MS3's are hatch only.

The 3 in that picture does have MS wheels on though.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yes it is subjective, but I think most of us can agree that a fun car is one that you can take to near its (and your own) limits, in not just linear but lateral acceleration, and feel decent G forces in.

A shit car can be REALLY fun/exciting, but the bigger a car is, the less fun it is because it's missing that feeling of connectedness or danger. That damping inherent in heavier/bigger/more refined cars is what kills the feeling of fun, often.

When ads tout 'direct'ness, precision, feedback, etc... they're saying that the engineers tried to capture the essence of what 'driving excitement' (RIP Pontiac) is.

Wheelbase is less important than grip/progressive loss of, chassis rigidity is a good thing to a point - and that point was passed before the turn of the century. At this point, all that chassis bracing is just making the car heavier. You don't want a mushy, squirelly piece of shit, but at the same time, why not just seam weld everything and build in a roll cage?

The engineering of most cars today should allow them to handle twice their power (on the low end) without many problems.




Well, you can. Intake, exhaust are cheapish, give results. You can get a custom tune done to unlock some potential, run higher octane, bolt on a turbo or supercharger (on the extreme end) - most of these don't require any compromises to other factors such as comfort, handling, styling, storage/seating, etc... Naturally, more power will cost more gas though.

But to bring a heavier car down, you need to remove things. Once you get past easy things like a lightweight battery, spare tire, etc... where do you go? Carbon fiber body parts get expensive real fast, tossing out seats (obvious)... light weight wheels can be expensive. Then there's the fact that bigger cars more often than not have a higher center of gravity, leading to more body roll, or more stiffness in the suspension to counter that.

And once you've lightened the car? You may need to tune your suspension so that it doesn't get bouncy. Meanwhile, you're still probabably not more than 300-400 lbs lighter than when you started, but you've given up on many of the reasons you may have bought that car for.

Except if you bought a faster car in the first place, you didn't need to remove all of those parts to qualify for the imaginary car Olympics you seem to be preparing for.

 

[Threi]

Hahaha, seriously. MS3's are hatch only.

Didn't know they were hatch only. I knew they come with those 18 inch wheels though.

 

[reilo]

Didn't know they were hatch only. I knew they come with those 18 inch wheels though.

Yeah, and that Mazda3 is a pre-07, before Speed3s were even available.

 

[Circle T]

Yeah, and that Mazda3 is a pre-07, before Speed3s were even available.

Though, lets not forget the predecessor to the MS3, the Mazdaspeed Protegé, which was a sedan.

 

[YuriLowell]

I want to start modding my evo 9, but the EvoM forums are so fucking terrible, that I cant even get a feel to where to start.

Thinking about getting lowering springs first since im tired of stock ride height.

 

[N-Bomb]

Good handling is not exclusive to lightweight coupe/hatch.

I wasn't aware that anyone said that it is. However, a Miata will handle better than an S-class Benz. Maybe you should be driving a Dodge Ram SRT-10?

Like I said give me an example of this magic lightweight car that you can mod, and will start, stop and turn faster than a purpose built sports car.

CRX. Miata (although arguably, it IS a sports car), Elise, probably a couple others.

well everybody craps about the new mustang here..so use that as a benchmark.

Really? Who is crapping on it? It's a great car for what it is.

Except if you bought a faster car in the first place, you didn't need to remove all of those parts to qualify for the imaginary car Olympics you seem to be preparing for.

I really don't know what you're getting at here. Hold on, let me go buy an FXX.

 

[Flo_Evans]

If I didn't have a 1 year old I would be all over a scion FR-S.

I am the only one that wishes it would of been kept badged a Subaru or Toyota though?

 

[Shortt Sirket]

I know it is a long read, but has anyone here seen the guys in Greece who were claiming to have the worlds highest HP 4G63 engines?

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyno-tuning-results/447351-highest-hp-4g63-engine-2007-a.html

You can skip a lot of the other responses, but the Extreme Tuners guy has some incredible tech that he shows, along with some awesome cars. It is definitely worth the quick look. They are also working on a stock frame turbo that puts out 80lbs/min!

Quick video of one of their cars. It puts out 870ps on pump gas and 14psi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYaqskg3Wh0

Edit: Some examples of the custom work they do on turbos:

 

[CrashPrime]

If I didn't have a 1 year old I would be all over a scion FR-S.

I am the only one that wishes it would of been kept badged a Subaru or Toyota though?

I understand Toyota wants to redefine the Scion badge, but it sure does put a sour taste in my mouth. I don't think there are many people who wouldn't have rather seen this car branded under the Toyota badge.

 

[ascii42]

If I didn't have a 1 year old I would be all over a scion FR-S.

I am the only one that wishes it would of been kept badged a Subaru or Toyota though?

The Subaru BRZ is coming here as well.

 

[N-Bomb]

To be honest, I'm not so much interested in the Toyobaru as much as what it represents and where it could cause the car market to go. *crossed fingers*

 

[33-Hit-Combo]

To detract from this god damned discussion...

I really wish I could get the discounted lease/finance schemes at work, and started at my place of work earlier to nab one of these bad boys...

 

[Mattlikewhoa]

I want to start modding my evo 9, but the EvoM forums are so fucking terrible, that I cant even get a feel to where to start.

Thinking about getting lowering springs first since im tired of stock ride height.

What do you want to start with?

Handling or "go"

 

[OnkelC]

To detract from this god damned discussion...

I really wish I could get the discounted lease/finance schemes at work, and started at my place of work earlier to nab one of these bad boys...

isn't the Focus RS discontinued since last year?

 

[YuriLowell]

What do you want to start with?

Handling or "go"

Thinking handling, its got enough "go" at the moment.
Looking into doing just some HR Sport Springs for a drop.

 

[33-Hit-Combo]

isn't the Focus RS discontinued since last year?

Possibly even before, hence wishing I began working at my current place earlier And of course wishing for the option to get on the company scheme also.

Tempting upgrade (used), or perhaps a Megane 265 Cup. Semi tempted for something RWD. Won't be for a while yet, still having so much fun with my current car.

 

[reilo]

New Audi A3 specs...

Engine: 1.8L I4
Power: 177 HP / 207 LB-FT
0-60 Time: 6.8 Seconds
Drivetrain: All-Wheel Drive
Curb Weight: 3,010 LBS
MSRP: $30,000 est.

In a few years, a used 2013 A3 would be a great project car.

3,000lbs Quattro turbo'd hot-hatch? Yes, please. That's also the curb-weight with the auto, so the manual should be 50ish lbs lighter.

 

[33-Hit-Combo]

New Audi A3 specs...

Engine: 1.8L I4
Power: 177 HP / 207 LB-FT
0-60 Time: 6.8 Seconds
Drivetrain: All-Wheel Drive
Curb Weight: 3,010 LBS
MSRP: $30,000 est.

In a few years, a used 2013 A3 would be a great project car.

3,000lbs Quattro turbo'd hot-hatch? Yes, please. That's also the curb-weight with the auto, so the manual should be 50ish lbs lighter.

What autobox does it use?

Pic just loaded and it is looking hot. Are those 15"s?

 

[reilo]

What autobox does it use?

It comes with a S-Tronic, because the 7-speed DCST is limited to 180lb of torque apparently...

This car has to make do with the heavier six-speed S-tronic gearbox because the seven-speed dry-clutch unit is limited to 185 pound-feet of torque in Quattro applications.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/31/2013-audi-a3-first-drive-review/#continued

In other words, buy manual!

Pic just loaded and it is looking hot. Are those 15"s?

In that picture? Not sure, but 16s are standard with optional 17s and 18s.

 

[robox]

New Audi A3 specs...

Engine: 1.8L I4
Power: 177 HP / 207 LB-FT
0-60 Time: 6.8 Seconds
Drivetrain: All-Wheel Drive
Curb Weight: 3,010 LBS
MSRP: $30,000 est.

3,000lbs Quattro turbo'd hot-hatch? Yes, please. That's also the curb-weight with the auto, so the manual should be 50ish lbs lighter.

less power, weighs more and costs more than fr-s.
it's a piece of crap. /auto-elitist-gaf

 

[reilo]

less power, weighs more and costs more than fr-s.
it's a piece of crap. /auto-elitist-gaf

Thanks to its AWD and high torque output, I'd wager that this car is just as fast if not really close to a FR-S on a track.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[shinshoryuken]

I wasn't aware that anyone said that it is. However, a Miata will handle better than an S-class Benz. Maybe you should be driving a Dodge Ram SRT-10?

CRX. Miata (although arguably, it IS a sports car), Elise, probably a couple others.

So the the magic cars you are talking about are the miata and CRX???!!!
You actually think they can start, stop and turn faster than a purpose built sport car when modded?

and how come you just keep comparing the "light cars" with luxury sedans, why wont you compare them to sports cars like 370z, evo, STI, mustangs, vette, 911 and so on..

here's what i'm asking again....

Like I said give me an example of this magic lightweight car that you can mod, and will start, stop and turn faster than a purpose built sports car.

so you're telling me that when modded a CRX/Miata can start, stop and turn faster than any of those car just because the CRX/Miata are "light"?

C'mon I told you to use the new Mustang as a benchmark....and you give me a CRX/Miata???

 

[reilo]

I wonder what's more fun to drive around a track: BMW M5 or Miata?

 

[PseudoKirby]

New Audi A3 specs...

Engine: 1.8L I4
Power: 177 HP / 207 LB-FT
0-60 Time: 6.8 Seconds
Drivetrain: All-Wheel Drive
Curb Weight: 3,010 LBS
MSRP: $30,000 est.

In a few years, a used 2013 A3 would be a great project car.

3,000lbs Quattro turbo'd hot-hatch? Yes, please. That's also the curb-weight with the auto, so the manual should be 50ish lbs lighter.

Unless they have changed something, they only offer the AWD with the V6 and an Auto Transmission

the Turbo 4 comes in a 6 speed with FWD only..

 

[reilo]

Unless they have changed something, they only offer the AWD with the V6 and an Auto Transmission

the Turbo 4 comes in a 6 speed with FWD only..

That's from the article, my man.

When our four- and five-doors land at port in time for the traditional Detroit Lions Thanksgiving Day game in 2013, engines will include the newest 177-horsepower 1.8 TFSI four-cylinder tested here

Our time with the 177-hp 1.8 TFSI – taken directly from the European market's A5 range – showed us that the new generation is significantly more nimble. Our Quattro S Line setup with optional 18-inch flow-formed wheels (16-inchers are standard and there's a range of 17-inch options as well), sturdy Continental ContiSportContact5 tires and wet-clutch six-speed S-tronic with three-spoke sport steering wheel and shift paddles, will be the sportiest A3 at the car's launch in Europe come July.

Look at the vital stats section: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/31/2013-audi-a3-first-drive-review/

 

[AlphaSnake]

less power, weighs more and costs more than fr-s.
it's a piece of crap. /auto-elitist-gaf

Considering that is going to cost just a few grand more than the FR-S, have similar power levels, better looks, build quality, interior quality, and comes with a turbocharged motor which tuning companies will go apeshit for? This thing is a winner out of the box.

Unless they have changed something, they only offer the AWD with the V6 and an Auto Transmission

the Turbo 4 comes in a 6 speed with FWD only..

Not sure what you're talking about. For the A3 or Audi in general? All 2.0Ts have the option of being Quattro, except for the base A6 - which requires the 3.0T for Quattro. Even the TT now, which the 2.0T was exclusively FWD, is now Quattro standard.

 

[PseudoKirby]

The First Generation A3 brought to the US had only those options, I am glad they have changed it because it was lame that they never had a manual and AWD option for those cars

 

[Culex]

The First Generation A3 brought to the US had only those options, I am glad they have changed it because it was lame that they never had a manual and AWD option for those cars

This is the main reason I opted not to buy the Suzuki Kazashi. No manual transmission option with AWD.

 

[Mattlikewhoa]

Thinking handling, its got enough "go" at the moment.
Looking into doing just some HR Sport Springs for a drop.

It's a start. You looking to getting front and rear sway bars as well?

 

[N-Bomb]

So the the magic cars you are talking about are the miata and CRX???!!!
You actually think they can start, stop and turn faster than a purpose built sport car when modded?

and how come you just keep comparing the "light cars" with luxury sedans, why wont you compare them to sports cars like 370z, evo, STI, mustangs, vette, 911 and so on..

The Mazdaspeed MX-5 can pull 0.98G laterally. From the factory. How many of those you listed can say that? (I speak as someone who is building an STi)

A normal MX-5 can brake from 70-0 in 157ft.

A Lamborghini Murcielago? 166ft. An Aston Martin DBS? 158ft.

What about a Bugatti Veyron? 158ft. You can bet that a Mustang and a Z will be worse than those.

The only thing not earth-shattering about it is the 6.5s 0-60 time. Can probably fix that to an extent by just a couple bolt-ons and a tune, probably clear 200hp, 5.x sec 0-60, which is quite respectable.

As to the CRX... 1800LBS!!! That's a whole metric ton less than a BRZ even, and 1500lbs less than a 370Z. The engine is weak, but it'll fit any number of high-output Honda swaps. Not gonna get into details here though, way too much to type.

C'mon I told you to use the new Mustang as a benchmark....and you give me a CRX/Miata???

I don't even know why the Mustang is part of this discussion.

 

[shinshoryuken]

The Mazdaspeed MX-5 can pull 0.98G laterally. From the factory. How many of those you listed can say that? (I speak as someone who is building an STi)

A normal MX-5 can brake from 70-0 in 157ft.

A Lamborghini Murcielago? 166ft. An Aston Martin DBS? 158ft.

What about a Bugatti Veyron? 158ft. You can bet that a Mustang and a Z will be worse than those.

The only thing not earth-shattering about it is the 6.5s 0-60 time. Can probably fix that to an extent by just a couple bolt-ons and a tune, probably clear 200hp, 5.x sec 0-60, which is quite respectable.

As to the CRX... 1800LBS!!! That's a whole metric ton less than a BRZ even, and 1500lbs less than a 370Z. The engine is weak, but it'll fit any number of high-output Honda swaps. Not gonna get into details here though, way too much to type.




I don't even know why the Mustang is part of this discussion.

your seriously comparing a mx-5(I have nothing against it..its a nice car) with supercars....SMH..

wow....you said start, stop and turn faster. I don't think MX-5 can match the any of those cars you mentions...

and I wanted you to use the Mustang as a benchmark, for you can compare it to your built magical light car that can start, stop and turn faster than it..

 

[N-Bomb]

your seriously comparing a mx-5(I have nothing against it..its a nice car) with supercars....SMH..

wow....you said start, stop and turn faster. I don't think MX-5 can match the any of those cars you mentions...

and I wanted you to use the Mustang as a benchmark, for you can compare it to your built magical light car that can start, stop and turn faster than it..

Did you even read anything I typed?

The Veyron (200x more expensive) only pulls 0.02 G more lateral Gs. That's the difference between like a Civic and Accord.

car - slalom / skidpad / 60-0 / 0-60 (* denotes best in stat)

BRZ - 69.1 / 0.92G / 114ft / 7.3s
MS MX-5 - 70.9* / 0.98G* / 112ft / 6.5s
Genesis - 67.4 / 0.89G / 116ft / 5.3s
Mustang V6 - 66.1 / 0.87G / 112ft / 5.7s
Mustang GT - 67.3 / 0.91G / 109ft* / 5.2s*

 

[shinshoryuken]

Did you even read anything I typed?

The Veyron (200x more expensive) only pulls 0.02 G more lateral Gs. That's the difference between like a Civic and Accord.

car - slalom / skidpad / 60-0 / 0-60 (* denotes best in stat)

BRZ - 69.1 / 0.92G / 114ft / 7.3s
MS MX-5 - 70.9* / 0.98G* / 112ft / 6.5s
Genesis - 67.4 / 0.89G / 116ft / 5.3s
Mustang V6 - 66.1 / 0.87G / 112ft / 5.7s
Mustang GT - 67.3 / 0.91G / 109ft* / 5.2s*

And that makes the mx-5 handle as good as Veyron?...why because its so called a "light" car?

I'm still waiting for your magical light car than can win the imaginary car olympic.

Start, stop and turns faster....where's that magical car that?

 

[robox]

Considering that is going to cost just a few grand more than the FR-S, have similar power levels, better looks, build quality, interior quality, and comes with a turbocharged motor which tuning companies will go apeshit for? This thing is a winner out of the box.

a "few grand"? more like 6, which is a pretty significant at the price point.
and it's able to load up value by leveraging the same fwd platform on a wide variety of cars under the vag umbrella. sell the car as a golf, a seat, a skoda, or whatever and you amortize the development costs. it's not a sports car platform but for all their pedestrian cars, which is not to say it isn't capable. shove a big engine into it and it can go plenty fast, i'm sure.

fr-s is a loss leader type car. built from scratch, and is the only car to come out of its r&d. so when toyobaru realized they'd exceeded their price targets, they just had to roll with it, and hope consumers will see the value they put into. obviously you don't. and we fucking get it.

we can speculate all we want about why it didn't get more power.
maybe they wanted the handling to shine through and not let power take away its thunder
maybe they didn't want to go all in and sell too many different specs. that takes up factory time and inventory. a single spec is much simpler.
maybe saving it up for modified version to be sold as a celica or supra

fact is, it doesn't. at least not at this time. and it's just endless back and forth between those that try to downplay the hype, and those jaded by a long history of shitty entry level cars that this seems like a winner.

Start, stop and turns faster....where's that magical car that?

ariel atom
caterhams
radical sr
ktm x-bow

any number of track only cars

 

[N-Bomb]

And that makes mx-5 a better handling car than a Veyron?...why because its so called a "light" car?

I'm still waiting for your magical light car than can win the imaginary car olympic.

Start, stop and turns faster....where's that magical car that?

Actually, that makes it SLIGHTLY almost un-noticably poorer handling. For 1/200th of the cost.

I've listed 2 or 3 cars in my past few replies to you that fit that criteria. Without getting into dedicated track cars like an Exige or 7 or Atom.

I can only assume at this point that you're either trolling me or mentally defective, so I'm not playing this game further unless you're willing to read/understand.


(I should note that tires can have a far bigger influence on handling/braking than suspension or brake set-up, regardless of the weight of the car, which is why you'll sometimes see so much variation between stats of the same car between model years)