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[Fimbulvetr]

Really the same could be said of the older games, but they were from a time when the idea was still relatively fresh. In 2004... Not so much.

So what would have made those ideas less old if RE4 ended up like the fog version?

 

[Boney]

:lol RE4 being original. Go right ahead, tell me what's original. Himuro didn't mention a single thing, just a long list of subjective experiences which didn't happen to instill any fear for me. There's certainly nothing factual about it. Take health packs and rename them herbs. Take escort missions and rename them terror incarnate. Or, take a basic shooting game, add some maudlin creep-show framework, and call it RE4. Forget the shortage of ammo in regular play modes, you have a whole store for crying out loud.

Really the same could be said of the older games, but they were from a time when the idea was still relatively fresh. In 2004... Not so much.

You're definately nitpicking and not talking about the game. AT ALL.

 

[Steeven]

Guess I'm almost all alone in not liking RE4 in any way. Sure it's a good game by the normal standards, but it wasn't my cup of tea. I'm still pissed they tossed away the scary parts.

 

[luka]

Guess I'm almost all alone in not liking RE4 in any way. Sure it's a good game by the normal standards, but it wasn't my cup of tea. I'm still pissed they tossed away the scary parts.

You and Yasae should hang out. Maybe start a RE4-haters club. You guys need all the support you can get.

Also, you should try going back and playing the old games again. They were much fewer "scary parts" than you remember.

EDIT: Didn't mean to sound so hostile.
Of course it's fine to dislike a game for whatever reason, as long as you're not coming up with ridiculous and insubstantial criticisms and downplaying it's accomplishments like mr Yasae over there.

 

[Sadist]

Oh dear, here we go.

 

[Snaku]

Wait what.

You could run

pruuuwuuuwuwuuururuuwuwuuuuuu

 

[How About No]

:lol RE4 being original. Go right ahead, tell me what's original. Himuro didn't mention a single thing, just a long list of subjective experiences which didn't happen to instill any fear for me. There's certainly nothing factual about it. Take health packs and rename them herbs. Take escort missions and rename them terror incarnate. Or, take a basic shooting game, add some maudlin creep-show framework, and call it RE4. Forget the shortage of ammo in regular play modes, you have a whole store for crying out loud.

Really the same could be said of the older games, but they were from a time when the idea was still relatively fresh. In 2004... Not so much.

1. The whole creepy autumn rural setting
2. The tight camera position (though, it did zoom out later on)
3. The focus of holding your ground against enemies who use melee attacks instead of guns
4. Using environment to slow enemy advancement (knocking down ladders)
5. Enemies with different weaknesses, sometimes mixed in with normal enemies (garradors)
6. Defined QTEs in games (mileage may vary if this is a good thing)
7. Blowing up dynamite in the enemy's hands is always fun
8. Grid-based inventory, though that's probably lifted from Diablo, still unusual for the genre
9. Escorting that doesn't suck balls
10. Money system where every upgrade counts
11. Difficulty system that adjusts depending on how well you do (though I mostly played on Pro where this doesn't seem to apply)
12. Goddamn return to the village in Ch2-2 at night in the storm
13. "Oh hey, its the dog again! Hey c'mere buddy--GAH OH GOD WHAT MY JUGULAR"
14. Do I need to mention the bosses? No, not really.
15. No thanks, 'bro'.

Just all-in-all, there wasn't a game that felt like RE4 before RE4. There aren't even many games that feel like RE4 after RE4.

 

[Sadist]

Just started playing a random savefile and the gameplay is still fantastic. (Wii version btw)

At the end of chapter 4-4. <3 this game so much

 

[Boney]

Just reached the part where Luis dies. So good.

 

[Yasae]

So what would have made those ideas less old if RE4 ended up like the fog version?

Hopefully something. We are talking about Mikami, right? He does have an inkling of talent, right? They did introduce the buddy system in RE0, a game I unfortunately (?) didn't get to play. From casts it seems to be plain annoying, however.

Serious-reply: No where did I mention that the list I posted were original things. They were only based around RE4's horror. RE4 was original due to:

1. the camera perspective, which created a genre standard.
2. the boss fights.
3. the technology and mechanics: enemies responded to shots at specific places in their body. This added a whole new layer to the game's gameplay.
4. The level of customization and micro-management within your weapon cases.
5. the pacing.

I just don't understand your argument. There wasn't really any game like Resident Evil 4 before it. Certain genres had amalgam of various things used in RE4, such as horror games (lack of ammo and items, not being able to carry every thing with you and being forced to compensate for this), action games (Splinter Cell third person perspective, physics), and adventure games (puzzles, qte's) but no game before it combined all of these elements into one package. And this package is pretty much the defining list of features that many games today have aped from RE4.

To say it's not original is beyond idiocy. Even someone who wasn't big on RE4 should understand that much.

Oh come on. You knew you weren't getting away with 2 and 5. I could say that about almost any game on the face of the planet.

The rest of the points are notable but subtle contributions, but hey, it's an amazing game which is the natural progression of the series. It should be congratulated for slight achievements with victory and fanfare.

And.. Wait, didn't MGS2 do a few of these things already? You could shoot the radios in enemies' hands so they couldn't call for help; you could do *ahem* nut shots; you could shoot them in the right arm and they couldn't fire; you could shoot them in the legs and they couldn't walk. Those are area-dependent reactions. The camera wasn't over the shoulder, relying mainly upon fixed positions with the option to switch to first person mode. I guess that's, uh, a great innovative step forward for RE4. An over the shoulder camera. To be fair, a lot of games have since (lazily) copied.

The micro-management and inventory juggling were staples of the previous games. Where the hell did that come from? If anything that's part of what makes RE4 a Resident Evil and not an indistinguishable action game.

 

[G-Fex]

I hope this doesn't become one of those things like Goldeneye, where people try to figure out why it was such a huge success and eventually remake it twice.

 

[sonicmj1]

And.. Wait, didn't MGS2 do a few of these things already? You could shoot the radios in enemies' hands so they couldn't call for help; you could do *ahem* nut shots; you could shoot them in the right arm and they couldn't fire; you could shoot them in the legs and they couldn't walk. Those are area-dependent reactions. The camera wasn't over the shoulder, relying mainly upon fixed positions with the option to switch to first person mode. I guess that's, uh, a great innovative step forward for RE4. An over the shoulder camera. To be fair, a lot of games have since (lazily) copied.

This comparison doesn't really fit for a number of reasons.

MGS2 is a stealth game. More importantly, it's a stealth game where enemies die/get knocked out instantly by headshots. MGS2 adds a lot of flavor to the encounters by the interactive elements you mention, but they're ultimately pretty unimportant. You can avoid most of the shootouts in MGS2 easily, and the ones that you get in can be solved with headshots, like every other shooter with location-based damage ever made.

Compare that to the numerous tensions of RE4:
- Careful shooting can interrupt enemy attacks and block projectiles.
- Enemies don't fall easily to a single form of attack, so you can't just shoot everyone in the head. Even enemies somewhat vulnerable to headshots don't fall with a single bullet.
- Well-placed bullets allow players to perform special powerful melee attacks on enemies. Crucially, the only way to perform these attacks is by being close to enemies that you can't easily run from.

These elements, combined with very varied enemy design that forces the player to adapt over the course of the game (from villagers and the chainsaw guy to parasites to dogs and more), combined with unique boss battles that use the controls in pretty unique ways, and you have a game that had a very different feel from anything that came before.

It's interesting to compare RE4 with Deadly Premonition and see how much the latter borrows from the former, and how much the elements that it misses cause Deadly Premonition's action to be so much worse than RE4's.

 

[ZephyrFate]

This kind of gameplay wouldn't sell anymore I'm afraid. It looks so good though.


And I'll strangle every "tank control" dude in this thread personally. OH LOOK A SLOW METHODICAL CORRIDOR SURVIVOR HAS SLOW CONTROLS WHY CAN'T THEY BRING THE CONTROLS OF BAYONETTA IN HERE SO MUCH SMOOTHER LOL

I'd prefer the controls of Bayonetta in every action game.

 

[Yasae]

This comparison doesn't really fit for a number of reasons.

MGS2 is a stealth game. More importantly, it's a stealth game where enemies die/get knocked out instantly by headshots. MGS2 adds a lot of flavor to the encounters by the interactive elements you mention, but they're ultimately pretty unimportant. You can avoid most of the shootouts in MGS2 easily, and the ones that you get in can be solved with headshots, like every other shooter with location-based damage ever made.

Compare that to the numerous tensions of RE4:
- Careful shooting can interrupt enemy attacks and block projectiles.
- Enemies don't fall easily to a single form of attack, so you can't just shoot everyone in the head. Even enemies somewhat vulnerable to headshots don't fall with a single bullet.
- Well-placed bullets allow players to perform special powerful melee attacks on enemies. Crucially, the only way to perform these attacks is by being close to enemies that you can't easily run from.

These elements, combined with very varied enemy design that forces the player to adapt over the course of the game (from villagers and the chainsaw guy to parasites to dogs and more), combined with unique boss battles that use the controls in pretty unique ways, and you have a game that had a very different feel from anything that came before.

It's interesting to compare RE4 with Deadly Premonition and see how much the latter borrows from the former, and how much the elements that it misses cause Deadly Premonition's action to be so much worse than RE4's.

The comparison fits completely. You make general points, you get general answers.

But I'll make it even easier.

I'm sorry, is this body part dependent enough for you? Or we could go back to Virtua Cop, Time Crisis, Terminator 2... And of course, RE has already gone down this road with its spinoffs. Thankfully they know what they are.

EDIT: Look. We hadn't seen a game with all the elements RE4 had until, well, RE4. But it didn't invent the fucking wheel. There are elements of its best features all over the place in other games before its release. Is it truly that difficult to understand my disappointment for this particular reason?

It was a marketing decision, too. The games had slowly grown more action-oriented since the second game. Think about it.. Did you have to skimp on every single bullet in RE2 and 3? No. The original game, sure. The sequels for the most part, no. The genre doesn't work in every setting. It was a niche where Capcom struck gold and they didn't have the innovation to keep it up-to-date with the same general gameplay. So... They basically made it into a different game that sold fairly well.

Just like with S-E, I'm in extreme doubt they can capture the key elements of the original and keep their sales high. If there's still a market for that kind of game, it's not in high demand.

 

[luka]

EDIT: Look. We hadn't seen a game with all the elements RE4 had until, well, RE4. But it didn't invent the fucking wheel. There are elements of its best features all over the place in other games before its release. Is it truly that difficult to understand my disappointment for this particular reason?

Your problem is that you're trying to break down these games into nothing more than the sum of their parts. RE4 isn't a classic because it has a ton of features that haven't been done before. It's a classic because it combines so many elements in a WAY that hasn't been done before with a sense of function and design that is unparalleled. It didn't invent the wheel, but it combined the wheel, the engine, and the frame and made a really fucking awesome car.

 

[rvy]

Yasae

 

[Christine]

smh, smh, smh

 

[ZephyrFate]

Yasae deserves a fresh new tag for this hilarity.

 

[Boney]

Yasae deserves a fresh new tag for this hilarity.

Not seeing the funnies.

 

[sphinx]

so just for the hell of it.

Three Scenarios in order of preference:

1 Village
2 Castle
3 Island

Village's atmosphere is unparalleled
Castle is a marvel of desing
Island, what the game had to offer was already over when you arrive hear, for me it was unnecessary Filler.

 

[luka]

Island, what the game had to offer was already over when you arrive hear, for me it was unnecessary Filler.

The regenerators and oven man alone justify act 3.

Also the Krauser fights are fantastic.

Yasae


smalltime.gif

Okay, this got me. :lol

 

[sphinx]

The regenerators and oven man alone justify act 3.

Also the Krauser fights are fantastic.



Okay, this got me. :lol

Krauser's fight is a matter of luck most of the time, you either get a prompt from the controls to press something quick and survive or die by his hand with nothing you can do against it.

Not the most satisfying fight in the game if you ask me. If fact, one of the cheapest.

 

[scitek]

Krauser's fight is a matter of luck most of the time, you either get a prompt from the controls to press something quick and survive or die by his hand with nothing you can do against it.

Not the most satisfying fight in the game if you ask me. If fact, one of the cheapest.

Knife him.

 

[Stabby McSter]

This thread made me purchase the Wii Edition of RE4 for a total of $2.35. I forgot I had $10 gaming credit on Amazon.

Once I beat the Wii Edition, it'll be my seventh playthrough.

 

[Stabby McSter]

I just tried the wii version for the first time.

I don't like it so far. The controls are dreadful.

I always felt RE4's controls were natural, but this is something else. Ugh. I planning on clearing the village but I didn't reach the village before cutting it off.

Need classic controller.

I rather like the Wii controls. It takes a few minutes to get used to, though.

Can't you use a Gamecube controller, also?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I just tried the wii version for the first time.

I don't like it so far. The controls are dreadful.

I always felt RE4's controls were natural, but this is something else. Ugh. I planning on clearing the village but I didn't reach the village before cutting it off.

Need classic controller.

There's a learning curve, but it eventually becomes so good and natural that it makes the game way, way too easy.

 

[luka]

I don't hate the wii controls, but they do break the game somewhat. I've said it before, but the entirety of the game's gunplay is based around gauging distance using the laser and the inherent difficulty in hitting distant targets due to the characters instability. Items like weapon stocks were created as a tradeoff between increased stability at the cost of inventory space. The wii version, as well as the pc version of re5 when played with a mouse, totally loses this dynamic and it just becomes a matter of pointing and clicking. Distance becomes irrelevant, the only change is that the target is either bigger or smaller. Nothing else is a factor.

Plus the laser looks totally rad.

 

[fireside]

Hmmm.

I've about mastered the controls by now.

The Wii controls are a little awkward at first. But after you get used to them the game becomes incredibly easy (but not really in a bad way).

 

[luka]

The Wii controls are a little awkward at first. But after you get used to them the game becomes incredibly easy (but not really in a bad way).

Kind of in a bad way.

 

[fireside]

Kind of in a bad way.

I’ve beaten the game six or seven times with the Chicago Typewriter and Infinite Rocket Launcher so maybe my opinion on things that make the game easier isn’t the norm.

 

[luka]

I’ve beaten the game six or seven times with the Chicago Typewriter and Infinite Rocket Launcher so maybe my opinion on things that make the game easier isn’t the norm.

Weren't you really bored?

 

[fireside]

Weren't you really bored?

I’m sure I could simply run through the game not killing anyone and still not be bored.



Okay, maybe that would bore me a little.

 

[Yasae]

Your problem is that you're trying to break down these games into nothing more than the sum of their parts. RE4 isn't a classic because it has a ton of features that haven't been done before. It's a classic because it combines so many elements in a WAY that hasn't been done before with a sense of function and design that is unparalleled. It didn't invent the wheel, but it combined the wheel, the engine, and the frame and made a really fucking awesome car.

This is exactly what makes it so boring. We're six pages in and nobody gets this? Okay then. GAF is very cultured, I take it. :lol

You just liked having all the good shit.. Well... Actually some good shit and some bad shit in one place. *shrug* Eh.

 

[ilikeme]

wow yasae you're crazy

aren't you

 

[Night_Trekker]

Just finished Separate Ways for the first time. Kinda disappointing, honesty. It's so obvious it was made later and they didn't have access to the other voice actors, but the third (?) level in the totally new area was cool.

I think I might start a new game now in Professional.

 

[Prime Blue]

Just finished Separate Ways for the first time. Kinda disappointing, honesty. It's so obvious it was made later and they didn't have access to the other voice actors, but the third (?) level in the totally new area was cool.

I think I might start a new game now in Professional.

It was planned right from the start, though Kawata lied about it in an interview on the PlayStation 2 version. The whole Plaga sample subplot does not make any sense without it, and there are barrels in that area that can only be reached with Ada's hook shot.

They just couldn't finish it in time.

 

[beelzebozo]

you may be able to prolong your life, but it's not like you can escape your inevitable death, is it?

 

[Sadist]

So, I finished it today for like the 17th time and it's still so good.

This game has everything. Well, except for a good story but hey Resident Evil is pulp storywise

 

[cvxfreak]

They just couldn't finish it in time.

I always believed they saved it for the PS2 port to give that one some marketability.

Even if it did make it to the GameCube original, it would have been odd since there's Ada's other minigame there, too.

 

[Dead Man Typing]

I always believed they saved it for the PS2 port to give that one some marketability.

Even if it did make it to the GameCube original, it would have been odd since there's Ada's other minigame there, too.

Yeah it isn't like they haven't done similar things before. There's that door near the end of Code: Veronica in the original Dreamcast release that has no purpose, but in the director's cut/PS2/Gamecube versions it's used in the extended ending. I think that Capcom knew Resident Evil fans have a history of buying re-releases and have made a bit of a habit of holding back content for use in future ports to try and sell the game as an enhanced version. Although they actually did bring voice actors back in to record dialogue for the RE5 Gold Edition DLC, so maybe they don't think that far ahead.

 

[beelzebozo]

the tmp is dog shit.

the mine launcher is useless.

they're interesting only as novelties. a handgun, a shotgun, a rifle. this is the triumvirate of pure power.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

^No knife?

I bite my thumb at you sir.

 

[beelzebozo]

^No knife?

I bite my thumb at you sir.

the knife is neither good nor bad. it is negligible.

make me a gun that shoots knives.

 

[luka]

This is exactly what makes it so boring. We're six pages in and nobody gets this? Okay then. GAF is very cultured, I take it. :lol

You just liked having all the good shit.. Well... Actually some good shit and some bad shit in one place. *shrug* Eh.

Yeah. I think we're done here. You can't even be bothered to form coherent sentences.

Man, I'm not bothering with the TMP this run. TMP sucks. I'm not going to buy the rifle until I get Ashley and we're on the elevated carts near the castle.

It's like playing the game again for the first time.

Except now I have knowledge on what sucks, and what doesn't and I can spend my money accordingly.

Strangely enough, in the dozen or so times I've played through it, I've never once even tried the TMP.

 

[Prime Blue]

I always believed they saved it for the PS2 port to give that one some marketability.

Even if it did make it to the GameCube original, it would have been odd since there's Ada's other minigame there, too.

I summed it up the situation in more detail here.

Although they actually did bring voice actors back in to record dialogue for the RE5 Gold Edition DLC, so maybe they don't think that far ahead.

For Lost in Nightmares and Desperate Escape, the developers actually admitted that they were planned to be part of the game, though left out due to "balance considerations" (whatever that means).

 

[Pneophen]

I didn't even bother trying the TMP till after my umpteenth play through. I didn't even think to get the rifle my first play through until I got the infrared scope.

I kinda wish they had kept the gold glitch in the room with the two Gigantes for the PS2 port.

 

[Boney]

Eww you guys, I didn't try the TMP after like the 5th run through the game, but the gun is god.

Does a great job at conserving ammo if you point and shoot to the knee caps and the just knife them to death, and it's really powerful against a single enemy in spray form.

Also, don't forget you get free bullets if you upgrade when it's empty.

I'm loving this playthrough in Pro with just the village weapons (and the free Magnum).

 

[Pureauthor]

The TMP is the jack of all trades weapon, but you already have specialist weapons, so...

It's pretty nice for simply unloading into bosses though.

And I'd like to mention that I never upgraded the reloaded speed on the Broken Butterfly if I could help it. Some things just shouldn't be tampered with.

 

[Sadist]

TMP is the best weapon to use against Mendez in his first form: unload everything on his spine.

Shotgun/Rifle/Pistol combo for me.

 

[ZephyrFate]

While watching the RE4 Wii LP on SA right now, the Mine Launcher is actually kinda useful.