GHG
Gold Member
And that is why a lot of AAA games over the last generation or so have lacked creativity. When your first thought is how to make more money instead of prioritising making a quality product then it ends up stifling creativity.
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This is the pitch for Fable 4 that Microsoft rejected [Eurogamer report]
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
And that is why a lot of AAA games over the last generation or so have lacked creativity. When your first thought is how to make more money instead of prioritising making a quality product then it ends up stifling creativity.
DannyDanger
Member
Kind of explains this:
Wiat, why's until dawn on the ps3 list?
LordRaptor
Member
Oh, fair enough, yeah, I agree.
A major aspect of Marketings job is essentially based on reinforcing preconceptions.
Just read like, 1 post back in the conversation dude. I explained this fairly clearly
"Darker and Grittier" is not the same as "Dark and Gritty". Being darker and grittier than Fable 1 - 3 can still leave plenty of scope for the usual silliness and fun.However, he since replied that he doesn't think it should be any darker or grittier - which is fair enough (its subjective of course)
Yup. They are only doing their job. Just so happens that morally that job is not something many would be ok with doing at times.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
If you didn't own a Kinect and didn't like Halo, Gears, and Forza you might as well have sold your console for a PS3. After 2010 the 360 was in dire shape.Kind of explains this:
TheSpoiler
Member
You know more than a vetted journalistic outlet?
To be clear, it's not like places such as Eurogamer are above things like this, but if you are gonna sling that line about lies, you'd better bring some truth to the table to support your side. Elsewise, it reeks of defending your favorite company.
ScatheZombie
Member
This is every argument with every marketing department at every US-based AAA studio ever. It's not anything new or anything unique to Microsoft. Whenever you see a game whose marketing or protagonist doesn't heavily feature 20-something white dude, it's because someone won this argument against the publishing/marketing people - not because this argument didn't happen.
Thabass
Member
No that's Peter Molyneux's philosophy.
I did exactly this. Xbox 360 died after Halo 4 in my opinion.
And that's why I don't like MS as publisher. Way too much "make me more money or I cancel your shit" attitude. Yes all companies have cancelled big projects and games in their past but where is the mentality to push the medium forward (not only profit wise) here? I like Sony's approach much better "8 out of 10 games won't be profitable for us but that's okay as long as the other two will make us the big cash".
shinobi602
Member
It also comes from history, of which I've thoroughly enjoyed Lionhead's games (save for the Kinect shite). Given the amount of time that they'd have liked and the budget, I have no doubt it would have been great.
dragonelite
Member
Studio and Microsoft incompetence i guess, no clear vision of where to go with Legends.
LordBaztion
Member
applies to both
HighResTomato
Member
It's obvious by now that Microsoft is not a company that gives Devs a lot of creative freedom. Xbox is just there so that they can stay relevant in people's daily home media consumption.
GHG
Gold Member
Uh oh. You don't know what you've started.
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Microsoft has gotten really bad at copying other companies. Copying itself isn't bad. It's just the nature of things. I don't think anyone has ever accused Microsoft of being innovative and original. They copy with pride and standardise. Like they made their core business.
But, trying to go Valve's route with games as a service or Apple's route with an appstores has really blown up in their face. Forcing that square peg into the round hole isn't a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
But, trying to go Valve's route with games as a service or Apple's route with an appstores has really blown up in their face. Forcing that square peg into the round hole isn't a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Sony also wants people to consume media through their console. Nintendo is the only one that's purely there for gaming.
I'd say that the most succesful marketing campaigns in recent memory have spawned out of actively challenging the existing preconceptions and creating a new "status quo." Hearty breakfast? 100% the result of marketing. Gendered colors for babies? 100% the result of marketing.
These norms only existed because someone decided to begin heavily marketing them. Hell, Budweiser changed the idea that beer should be served at room temperature because of their marketing.
Keeping the status quo means you don't know how to do your job or don't have the freedom to do your job better. The unfortunate reality is that most marketing positions aren't give the vertical freedom to expand a consumer base because it's "good enough" for the shareholders in the immediate reality.
It doesn't make most marketing any less scummy, but it stands the greatest chance at changing consumer perceptions.
MulderYuffie
Member
I hate Microsoft
anexanhume
Member
Even the execution of the previous 3 games to this concept would have been great. Not only that, but MS had a studio that was excited about churning out the fourth straight game in a series. Just wow. Maybe if Spencer had taken over a few years earlier...
Mass Effect
Member
That's some nice counter evidence you got there.
Probably because it was originally supposed to be a 2013 Move game. That image is pretty old.
Next time keep the racial slurs out of your protest against racism.
hemo memo
Member
"They were going, you can't have a black person on the cover, and you can't have a woman. And you want a black woman. And I was like, yes, I do, because it's about be whatever hero you want. No. It's a white guy. That's just the way it is. We know what sells and that's fucking it. Stop the arguing. I was like, fuck you! That was a huge fight.
"They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog. Work it out. I was like fuck you, man. I hated it.
"I was screaming at them in conference calls. I lost it at that point, because they just weren't getting the game. Especially because we were the first ever game that had gay marriage, we were about breaking down walls. It was meant to be funny and mature. They just took none of it and just did the usual white guy with a sword on the front. Damn it! You missed the point!"
I don't know if this is the problem of Microsoft or this is what the market buys. Becuase if they say we know what sells then they have sales data and not talking out of thin air.
The problem is sometimes it feels like companies do this to avoid the loud racist minority that expresses their hate over the internet.
Look at that recent old Navy ad that had a mixed race couple on it. Geeze people went nuts.
We already know a big portion of the children and man babies that play this game like dropping n bombs and calling women bitches all over the place, and sometimes it feels a company would rather not face these jerkwads head on and force them to deal with it. They would rather just not agitate the hive. Ignoring a problem like this doesn't make it better and doesn't fix the problem. If internally a company is having these arguments and the company itself is the one fighting to not have diversity in a game (or in this case, the cover), how can we hope our community of gamers gets better.
Insane Metal
Member
Holy fucking nuts in Christmas socks. What is this Microsoft. Wow."They were going, you can't have a black person on the cover, and you can't have a woman. And you want a black woman. And I was like, yes, I do, because it's about be whatever hero you want. No. It's a white guy. That's just the way it is. We know what sells and that's fucking it. Stop the arguing. I was like, fuck you! That was a huge fight.
"They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog. Work it out. I was like fuck you, man. I hated it.
"I was screaming at them in conference calls. I lost it at that point, because they just weren't getting the game. Especially because we were the first ever game that had gay marriage, we were about breaking down walls. It was meant to be funny and mature. They just took none of it and just did the usual white guy with a sword on the front. Damn it! You missed the point!"
MatthewMungall
Member
"They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog. Work it out."
I honestly don't get why they never went with this idea. Gritty London with Fable inspired mythos? I'd have bought it Day One, even after the shamblolic Fable 3. Mirroring what others have said, Sony needs to get the Liohead team and intergrate them with Ready at Dawn for the Victiorian-Era game we've always dreamed of.
I honestly don't get why they never went with this idea. Gritty London with Fable inspired mythos? I'd have bought it Day One, even after the shamblolic Fable 3. Mirroring what others have said, Sony needs to get the Liohead team and intergrate them with Ready at Dawn for the Victiorian-Era game we've always dreamed of.
GinoFelino
Member
'Phil' shut down Lionhead. Is that better somehow?
Mass Effect
Member
Don't do this. This is not a road you want to go down.
Damn, this is kinda sickening...
I think a fable legends style game could have worked... But to think that the studio threw a shit ton of money at a ftp (which should be cheaply made) when they had this amazing pitch sitting on the desk is just.... Wtf
The executives cost these people their jobs...
I think a fable legends style game could have worked... But to think that the studio threw a shit ton of money at a ftp (which should be cheaply made) when they had this amazing pitch sitting on the desk is just.... Wtf
The executives cost these people their jobs...
Until Dawn was first introduced as Move game for PS3.
I always point to WoW as a good example. The players are given the freedom to create what they want, and last I checked either at least 40% of the game's population is comprised of female characters. That's not an insignificant chunk of the playerbase.
It's what the market buys because it's what's available to them. Many games starring female characters or POC characters don't sell well because they aren't very good games to begin with. It has little to do with the gender or skin color of the characters at play.
soundscream
Member
Also what does this mean
"John McCormack remembers butting heads with Microsoft's marketing department over Fable.
"The marketing was shit," he says. "It was terrible. They just didn't get it. But it wasn't Microsoft's marketing. Marketing was like its own department. "
It was Microsoft's marketing and not XBOX?
Ban Puncher
Member
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The dark and gritty direction of Fable 4 would have made sense considering 3 was getting into dark territory with child labor, social class, killing your own brother (if you wanted to), etc.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
I wanted that new IP.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
Wow that could've been amazing.
cripterion
Member
Goddamn, Microsoft has sucked all gen. At least they brought back retro compatibility.
Pretty much this. Obviously we don't have every nuance of what Fable 4 would be but that sounds like it wouldn't work too well. I would have loved it personally but that's besides the point.
But fuck that shit that came after this pitch. Rest In Peace, Lionhead you poor lost souls.
demigod
Member
Someone correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't Spencer THE head of MS Studios? He probably canned this, I would've done the same.
As has been pointed out, Fable 2 came out more than a year before The Princess and the Frog released in theaters. There's also no black female characters in Fable 2 who would merit the cover (I can't think of *any* in the game, at all). It's entirely possible he's misremembering things, or misspeaking, or conflating different events—maybe this was about Fable 3, or Fable 1, which both have black female characters. But right now common sense contradicts his story. And yeah, if you haven't noticed, most game journalists are overly credulous, especially when it's in service of a juicy story.
"They were going, you can't have a black person on the cover, and you can't have a woman. And you want a black woman. And I was like, yes, I do, because it's about be whatever hero you want. No. It's a white guy. That's just the way it is. We know what sells and that's fucking it. Stop the arguing. I was like, fuck you! That was a huge fight.
"They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog. Work it out. I was like fuck you, man. I hated it.
"I was screaming at them in conference calls. I lost it at that point, because they just weren't getting the game. Especially because we were the first ever game that had gay marriage, we were about breaking down walls. It was meant to be funny and mature. They just took none of it and just did the usual white guy with a sword on the front. Damn it! You missed the point!"
God fucking bless you Lionhead.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
You mean the original pitch for Gears 4 where you went off world and fought a whole new alien threat?
Well, no. This wasn't a Molyneux game.
Dude your dog died at the end of Fable 2 and the main character's entire story in Fable 1 begins because his village was slaughtered by bandits. It wasn't always light hearted, that's just the only thing people really remember.
BarringGaffner
Member
That pitch sounded bad for Fable. It should stay light hearted medieval fantasy, not turn into something like The Order.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
No the heist game.
*yawn* yet another non white person trying to police a black person's language.